Healthy Pride vs. Egotistical (after placing 4th in the nation)

So first, of course, last weekend was Nationals. So tell me all about Nationals, what you did, how'd it go and all that.

Okay, so I competed at the 2025 Women's Freestyle Nationals. It's a really, really big tournament for women's freestyle wrestling. It's a 3-day tournament and I competed on 2 days. I did 2 brackets, U15 and U14. Um, I'm 12, but I'm a little too old for you for a 12U, so I had to go up. Um, in U14 I got 4th, and I'm pretty proud of my performance because I had more matches than any of anybody else in my bracket, and I learned a lot. Um, and then in U15 I almost placed but didn't quite make it there, but I'm okay with that too because I still have 2 more years in that bracket. Um, because I'm still young and one more year in 14 years. So I'm hoping that I can make a lot of progress in this next year and do really well.

Oh, that's very impressive. Big congrats. Um, so yeah, so first, um, since you're still 12, why did you not qualify for 12 and under?

I think it's because of my birthday. A lot of, you know, wrestling and jiu-jitsu, the organizations have these like Birthday cutoffs are for different, um, age groups, and I don't know where the cutoff for this tournament was, but mine was— my birthday was in the wrong place or something.

Got it.

But I don't mind that much. Yeah, it's okay.

But, um, still 4th in 14 and under, very impressive. I assume that most of the girls were quite a lot bigger than you?

Some of them, um, some of them were my age, some of them were 2 or 3 years older.

Um, are there weight classes?

Yeah, so there's age and then there's weight. I competed at 100 for 14U and then 46 kgs, which I think is like 101 for U15.

And were the— was the 15 intimidating or more intimidating than the 14, or no big deal?

It wasn't. I mean, I think it was just the name that was intimidating because a lot of the girls were in my 14U bracket, they just went up. Also to compete at 15U. So there are a bunch of the same girls. Some of them were newer and a lot bigger and older.

Got it.

Such as the one that I lost to. But it wasn't really that nerve— or it didn't make me that nervous. I didn't feel that scared just because I knew it was just for practice this year.

It sounds as if you really enjoyed the competition. Is that accurate?

For sure. It was so fun. I'm really pumped for next year.

Great. What makes it fun?

Um, I kind of link it to, you know, how people like love riding roller coasters. Sometimes it's kind of like that, but for wrestling matches and jiu-jitsu matches, because there's big adrenaline. But then also going and trying a place and when, when first and stuff, even though that didn't happen, um, I still got sort of the results that I was that I had a goal, place in 14U and then place in 15U, but I didn't, but it's okay.

Great.

And then also just to measure progress, that was my second freestyle tournament ever, so I did pretty good for that, I think.

And it sounds as if you feel competent, very competent. Is that accurate?

I think so. Yeah.

I think that helps. I think we enjoy ourselves when we're doing something where we feel— actually, competent is modest. Maybe you feel excellent. Would you say you feel competent, excellent? What's the right adjective to express how you feel in these tournaments?

Well, for wrestling, probably just competent. I don't think I feel too excellent yet. It's only been a little while, but I think maybe later on I will, like I do in jiu-jitsu.

So in jiu-jitsu, would you say you feel excellent?

Yes, I think.

Good. I think it's good to own things that you're good at. Would you say that you're proud of what you've achieved in jiu-jitsu?

For sure. Yes.

Do you think there's any danger of your ego getting too big or not at all?

A little danger. I mean, especially in jiu-jitsu, because I've kind of in my own little circle built myself up on a pedestal just a little bit because there's a lot of girls who want to beat me because I've beaten them before. Um, but so, and then if I lose, then my ego gets huge. Like, in my first freestyle tournament, 2, maybe 3 weekends ago, um, I lost. And even though it wasn't a big deal because I didn't know this girl, apparently, apparently she turned out to be like really good and I almost beat her or whatever. My ego was still like pretty, pretty hurt. And so I imagine if that happened in jiu-jitsu, it'd probably be like 10 times worse. But maybe since I've already experienced that, it won't be that bad. I don't know, we'll see.

Got it. Um, have you known people, uh, either in the jiu-jitsu or wrestling that are, you would say, egotistical? Or it's very rare for people in that world to be egotistical?

Uh, especially jiu-jitsu, just because I know more people in that realm. There are a ton of people who are very egotistical and don't want to lose and who cheat to win and stuff. There's even like little kids my brother's age and younger, there are kids like that and parents like that for sure, and gyms like that. But I think it all just depends.

What's the connection between being egotistical and willing to cheat to win?

I think maybe you could draw the line between where they are egotistical and have those like emotions where their ego is bruised and Maybe they have a reaction like they don't want to talk to you or something like that, and then their ego's so bruised, or they're so nervous about their ego getting bruised that they cheat in order to win. Um, I don't— not, not sure how they would cheat, but I know it's happened before.

So would you say there's a pretty definite connection between, um, being egotistical or having one's ego too invested in winning and cheating? Would you say that's even one of the primary reasons why some people cheat?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, if their ego wasn't bruised and they were— and they weren't sore loser, I guess, then they wouldn't cheat, I don't think.

And do you think if you're not egotistical about it, then you're much less likely to be a sore loser?

For sure. Yeah.

So, um, on the assumption that so far you've managed your ego well, that is, you not become egotistical Um, how do— how is it that you manage your ego? Why haven't you become more egotistical about it?

Um, I think part of it is me reminding myself that I'm still really young and I have a lot of time, and these matches or whatever, whatever I lost, don't even matter in the long run. I feel like some people forget that. Um, and also, if I lose then there just means that— that just means that I have stuff to work on, and that's not a bad thing, you know what I mean? And if I lose, like, if they're my same age, same strength, they were just way better than me, well then, okay, it's not like I can redo the match over right now and win. I just have to go and get better. And I think reminding myself all that helps. And so people don't focus on the big picture, they just focus on that, that match.

And do you think— so it sounds as if I'm hearing, I think, two closely related things. One is that losing keeps you humble, but the other is that rather than when you lose, your ego feeling all bruised, that when you lose, you process it in a way that, as you say, the big picture, that you're looking at becoming better in the long term. And so you don't let a lose kind of bruise your ego in the short term. Is that accurate?

Yeah, for sure.

Um, so do you think that— is it— do you have that attitude because, um, it's you or your coach or your parents, or where do you think you developed this attitude?

Um, a mixture of all the people that you met, that you've mentioned. I've been really lucky to have really good coaches and amazing parents. So they all kind of developed me into having that sort of mindset, unlike other kids where their coaches are total sore losers and stuff, and their parents just want the clicks on Instagram and stuff. And those are the type of kids that eventually drop out before they're 16 anyways, mostly. Super interesting.

So would you say that most of the kids who are sore losers either have a coach that is too ego-invested in winning and/or a parent who's too ego-invested in winning?

I think it's really common. It could just be the kid itself, but I think that coaches and parents and gyms and teams for sure have a big impact on how you react to winning and losing.

When you go into a match, have you ever seen, whoa, that coach is so invested in winning, or that parent is just so— do you ever kind of have— are you aware of that sort of thing before going into the match? Or this is only in reflection, looking way back?

Um, right, I think it's more during the match or, uh, just how you know them, I think. Because a lot of, a lot of parents, one red flag is they're also like, especially if they don't train wrestling or jiu-jitsu or whatever, they're screaming and trying to coach their kid even though they literally don't know anything, when they should be staying quiet and filming and holding the water bottle and stuff. Yeah, uh, which is what my dad does, so that's good. Um, and then the parent— I think when the coach is like over the top, it also doesn't help either.

And it's really interesting, you're predicting— and my understanding is you predict the people with coaches or parents like this, or are you saying they're most likely going to drop out, or they will almost certainly drop out before they get older?

I don't think I don't think it's only that the parents or coaches are either egotistical or screaming and stuff. I think the thing that mostly pushes kids to drop out after being the hype of jiu-jitsu or wrestling or whatever sport for so long is that just they can't keep up with all the pressure, maybe because they've been winning so much and their parents have put a lot of pressure on them, or they just fall out of interest. Like, they've been doing so long, they don't really care anymore. But they find something new. Um, I just feel like it does for sure help. The parents putting so much pressure on the kids, especially kids at really good gyms, they win all the time, and then their parents are putting a lot of pressure on them, posting them on Instagram, building their Instagram. And then one time they lose and everyone's like, what? And then they look into this new kid. And it helps to have parents who are very supportive and don't want anything other than you trying your best.

Got it. Um, so given that, so parents and coaches' attitudes are super important. Um, on the other hand, you started by saying one of the reasons, one of the things that keeps you humble is that you lose sometimes. Do you think if you ever had a long streak of winning that you could become egotistical?

For me, yes. Yeah, I think that I, I don't think that's happened before to me to the point where I was like— I don't know, it's for sure not happened to the point of where I've like started cheating to win. That has never— it's not going to happen. But I have gone on streaks where I win a lot and I lose at some local small tournament, and then I like blow up about it just because even though it's a local small tournament, I still lost, you know what I mean? Um, but me, me being egotistical is just like being really frustrated about it and maybe crying and like being like quiet for a day and then just going back to normal. For a lot of kids, it's a little worse, but I don't know how to describe it.

Got it. So I could imagine on one hand, a certain amount of pride is just healthy and it's, I think it can be good to be proud of yourself and what you've achieved and what you're doing. What's the boundary between kind of a healthy pride on one hand and an unhealthy egotism on the other hand?

I think if you're talking about pride, you need to be proud of— especially if you're just say you're competing in jiu-jitsu or wrestling or whatever, you've got to work really hard to get there, to be able to compete there. So you've got to be proud of that, just all the pride or sorry, all the hard work and time you put into training. And then especially if you competed before, you need to have pride in your streak and you can't just not care about it. Or else there's not going to be that fire in you that still wants to win. You need to want to win and you need to not want to lose, but you can't be— or you can't be so heavy on those emotions that they prevent you from being humble. And even if you lose, learning from it.

Got it. So would you say that some part of you aspires to remain humble even if you lose after a long, long winning streak? For sure.

Yeah.

Um, out of curiosity, how far do you hope to go with jiu-jitsu?

I'm— I mean, I want to go as far as possible, especially into the adult categories and the Worlds and things like that. Um, I'm loving wrestling right now though, so I could potentially take it into college, um, and wrestle at a college, hopefully, most likely, hopefully a really good college, maybe with a scholarship. That would be awesome. The Olympics, world team, that's a very possible goal and perhaps future, but I'll get to that later.

Wonderful. Well, I absolutely love your, I think, healthy pride. And I also think it's good to kind of combine your healthy pride with an awareness that egotistical can be, can be a danger. Is it fair to call it potentially a danger? If, as you balance pride and egotism, not to kind of slide off into the harmful one.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, good. Well, I've super enjoyed this conversation. Really enjoy how thoughtful you are about your career in jiu-jitsu and wrestling. So in light of keeping it reasonably short, I'll let you go for today and look forward to next time.

Sounds good. Thank you.

Welcome. Bye-bye.