Loving your child's mind: What is a fair competition

Yeah, that's— so I think this is an interesting issue to discuss. So when we compare— so Alana was saying that initially she was saying that she was better at jiu-jitsu than her brother, and then afterwards she said that, uh, for his age and weight, that she's the— let me see if I understand this correctly, Alana. You thought you were better because you can beat him in a, in a in a match, is that correct?

Yes, but also because I'm bigger and I've done it for longer.

Okay, so is it fair to say that we should compare him against people either his age or weight or experience? Well, what's fair when we say that person A is better at something than person B?

Like you said, doing it with his age and weight.

What do you think? Um, so Marwa, you've done— have you guys both done martial arts? Sankara, have you done martial arts?

Um, I, I used to for a while before lockdown, except once lockdown— once lockdown ended, then, um, I stopped and focused on my swimming and 11+.

Got it. But at least you kind of know what martial arts matches are like. And Marwa, have you done martial arts? I can't hear you, Marwa.

I have not done martial arts.

Okay. So, but you know what kind of a competition is, a match is. Is it— so with Alana, I was saying, is it age or weight or if we wanted to figure out if her brother was as good as she is in martial arts or worse or better, what is it? Is it strictly age? Is it strictly weight? Is it strictly experience? How do you kind of figure out if somebody's not in the same place as you are, if it's a fair match, or is there no such thing as a fair match?

Well, I mean, I guess there is such thing as a fair match, but nobody's really the same height.

So height— go ahead.

Or, I mean, well, I guess sometimes, sometimes if you put the right people together, it would be a fair fight, but mostly maybe not.

And I guess I'm trying to figure out, how do we know what counts as a fair fight? Are all fights fair or some fights not fair?

Um, some fights aren't fair. Like if you put me or someone else, someone that's bigger than me, against with maybe a little kid, that wouldn't be a fair fight.

Okay. And I know Marwa is competitive in tennis. Is that correct, Marwa? You compete in tennis?

Yes.

So what counts as a fair competitor for you? Um, do they have to be the same age as you, the same size as you, the same experiences, or is it fair for you to compete with adults? Do you know, Marwa? What counts as a fair— go ahead.

About 10s, like 10-year-olds.

So you think age is the most important criterion as to whether or not it's a fair match?

Yeah.

Okay. Sankara, how about you? Do you think it's age or weight or strength, or how do you determine what's fair?

Um, I think, um, it doesn't really matter because normally with me swimming, I have to put up with me swimming against 11-year-olds.

Okay, you think— well, so would you say it's fair for you to compete with 11-year-olds?

No, but I have to put up with it.

So would it be fair for you to compete with 15-year-olds or only 11-year-olds?

Um, I wouldn't want to swim against 15-year-olds.

Okay. Um, so with 11-year-olds, do you think that's not fair and they should only have you competing against 8-year-olds or 9-year-olds?

No, I think that it's— I don't know.

What do you think, Alana? Do you think that— so Marwa said age. I think Marwa was kind of solid on age. Sounds like Sankara is a little confused because 15 is not fair. Sort of sounds like you partly want to say 11 is not fair, but you're not willing to say it should only be 8 or 9-year-olds. So, Lana, with swimming, let's start with swimming. You think that kids should only compete with other kids their age or different ages, or how do we figure out what's fair in swimming?

Well, I don't really know much about swimming, but maybe I don't know because I don't know much about swimming.

Okay, but you said in jiu-jitsu it's height. Does that mean that, um, if somebody is, say, 15 but is the same height as you are, it would be fair for you to compete with 15-year-olds?

No, I don't think so because they might have a different experience level, or they might have started when they were like 5 or something, so they would have an experience level of like 10 years. And since I'm only 9, then me would only be 5 years.

So are you thinking that it has to be height plus age?

Well, maybe it's just experience.

Okay.

Instead of just height or weight.

So does that mean— how many years of experience do you have?

5.

So you've got 5 years experience. So suppose there was an adult who just started jiu-jitsu 6 months ago. Do you think that because you've got 5 years of experience, well, you should compete against, um, adults with 5 years of experience?

Compete, or—

yeah, just train.

Well, no, I don't, I don't think that would be fair because they have a massive height and weight advantage against me.

So now I'm hearing Alana has said height. Alana has said— I'm going to try to use my hands— Alana has said height, Alana has said age, Alana has said, uh, experience, right? Those three?

Yeah.

Okay, so height, age, and experience. Should it be almost exactly the same, or how much is it like plus or minus um, a year, or do they all have to be exactly your same age?

I mean, they don't have to be exactly the same age. Like, most of the time when you're competing, it's just by weight. You're in different weight classes instead of just height.

Okay, so were you mistaken to include height? Should it strictly be weight?

Um, not strictly. I guess it could be— I mean, I'm not sure.

Okay, is it possible to decide? Is there any such thing? Let's go back to the fair. Um, Marwa, tell us, are there any tennis matches that would be unfair for you, or would all matches be fair for you?

Some unfair and some fair.

So how do we know which ones are fair and which ones are unfair?

By the age.

Okay, so suppose somebody is—

and strength.

And strength. Now age and strength. Um, are you 8 yet, Marwa?

Yes.

Okay, so if they're 8-year-olds and with strength, how do we measure strength?

By their power of hitting the ball.

Okay, so would you see the ideal fair matches as we see all of the 8-year-olds who can hit the ball with a certain power, and then that would be the most fair matches? Yes. Is that the— are those the conditions under which you play now or not?

No, I go to 10 and under.

So if you're at 10 and under, that means as an 8-year-old you're kind of like in Sankara's situation. That means as an 8-year-old you are playing playing against 9-year-olds and 10-year-olds? You think that's a little bit unfair?

No.

Okay. So I'm trying to figure out what counts as fair. So maybe it's age plus about 2 years is the right amount? That is, you're 8, you're saying it is fair for you to play 10-year-old, but it would— would it not be fair for you to play an 11-year-old? Okay, um, and Sankara, you're 8, correct? You're still 8?

I'm not— I'm 9.

Okay, now you're 9.

Okay, turning 10.

You're turning 10. Okay, so it, it is— did you decide it is fair for you to swim against 11-year-olds, or is it not fair?

It's okay because I win in some races.

Okay, so you're saying as long as you can win, that's how you know it's fair? Yeah. Would it be fair for you to swim against 12-year-olds?

Um, yeah, it's only a year difference.

How about 13-year-olds?

Maybe.

14-year-olds?

No.

Okay, and how can you tell? What, what are you thinking when I ask those different agents? What are you thinking about how to determine if it's fair or not?

It's, um, it's just how good they are.

So would you say you want a chance to win? As long as you have a chance to win, then it's fair?

Yeah.

Okay, so Alana, what do you think? Sankara would let us have somewhat older. So you're 9 now. 10-year-old's okay? 11-year-old's okay? 12-year-old's okay? How much older is okay?

Well, I'm not sure. I think the, or the, like the highest limit for me right now, or that I would, because I don't know most of my competitors' ages, But maybe if I had the choice, maybe, maybe so since I'm 9, like maybe to 11 or 12.

And are you using— go ahead.

Because I go with a— because I go with 11-year-olds every day when training. Yeah, and 12-year-olds sometimes, but I mean maybe 12. But since I'm only 9, I don't think that would be really fair because if they started when they were 5 like me then they would have a lot more experience.

And Sankara was thinking that as long as there's a chance of beating them, then it's still fair. If you have a chance of beating them, it's fair even if they're 2 or 3 years older?

I mean, maybe, maybe it's fair because they are— because they also have some advantages. So maybe that's pretty fair.

Okay, moving to that, Marwa, you had said age. Suppose the criterion is as long as you have a chance of beating them. So if you have a chance of beating a 12-year-old Is it fair to play tennis against a 12-year-old?

Yes.

Okay, um, so maybe the fairness then is not a matter of age or weight or strength or anything. It's a matter of do you have a chance of beating them. And so maybe let's go the other direction. Is it fair for you guys to play against a 4-year-old? No. And probably the answer is because you could beat every single 4-year-old. Is that true?

Yes.

Okay. So suppose there was— and Marwa, you're still 7, or did you turn 8?

I turned 8.

Okay. Yeah, sorry. Everybody changes every year. So you're 8. Suppose there was a 6-year-old that could beat you. Do you think there are 6-year-olds who could beat you? No. No, none. Are there 7-year-olds that could beat you?

No.

None. You're the best. You can beat all the 7-year-olds. Okay.

Um, my sister loves tennis.

Okay. Um, so you would say if you could win, say, a league of 12-year-olds, you'd be totally happy competing with a league of 12-year-olds?

Yeah.

Okay, so maybe the— I'm thinking, suppose you guys were responsible for designing the rules for athletic competitions. So you are the World Olympic Committee for rules for competition, and, you know, I just appointed you this Olympic committee. Are you saying that as long as either any person in a set of people has a chance of winning, that's what determines if it's fair? Go, Sankara.

I, I, but that's only for me because, um, because when I'm, when I'm racing, they only pick people 2 or 3 years, 2 years ahead of me at maximum. So yeah.

Okay, so you're saying it's not just the ability to win, you think 2 or 3 years is the most that we should ever allow kids to compete against. Yeah. Does that sound right to you, Ilana? 2 or 3 years is the most we should allow you to compete? You're muted, I think, Ilana.

I guess that pretty much makes sense because if they're 3, 3 years older than you, I mean, it's possible you have a chance if you've been training longer or doing something longer. But I mean, I don't think that would be very fair because they would have advantages over you— age, weight, height, stuff like that.

Okay, got it. Um, Marwa, does that sound right to you? Maybe 2 or 3 years is the most they could be older than you for it to be fair? No. What would you say? What's the oldest they could be? How much older can it be for it to be fair? 5 years?

10? About 10.

10. So you think you should be competing, um, against 18-year-olds, is that correct?

Yes.

Do you think that you could beat some 18-year-olds?

Yeah.

Okay, um, well, that's interesting. So Marwa is ready to compete against, um, 18-year-olds, but Sankara and Alana just 2 to 3 years old. You know, I would say this question of how do we decide what is fair is huge. People talk about it all the time, and if you are in an athletic league where you lose all the time, maybe that's not fair. Go ahead, Alana.

Well, also, maybe it also depends on the Sport or activity that you're doing. Okay. There's different rules and everything.

Okay, so you're saying that maybe in tennis 10 years older is okay, but in jiu-jitsu 10 years older would not be okay?

I mean, I don't know anything about tennis, so I don't know about tennis, but 10 years older for jiu-jitsu, I don't think that would be fair.

Got it, got it. Okay, well, um, I wanted to just think through this fairness issue. And we won't solve it now, but this gives you a way to think about are the rules of your athletic leagues fair or not, or if you were going to design a new athletic league, what would you design? So I want to again keep these short. So it's great to see all of you today, and hopefully we see you next week. Have a great week, you guys.

Bye.

Thank you.