Socratic educator Michael Strong with Alana, Age 7

Hello, Alana? I can't hear you. I can't hear you. No sound. I still can't hear you. No sound. All right, there we go. Now I can hear you. How are you, Alana?

Good, how are you?

I'm well. What's up today?

Today I'm just at home. Um, we're gonna go to the beach after this.

I think you have such a fabulous life. Do you like your life? Good for you. So today I was wondering, do you think that computers think the same way we do, or do they not think, or are computers like us, or computers different from us?

I think computers are kind of different from us.

Okay. How, in what ways do you think they're different from us?

First, they're machines and they use a different, like, I don't know how, like, I don't, like, they're just like machines that I don't think, like, maybe there could be some invention of a computer person that could walk and talk, but that's not what it is right now, so I think they're kind of different.

Okay, so suppose we had— usually they call them robots— so suppose you had a robot that could walk and talk. Do you think then it would be pretty much like us?

Yeah, pretty much, because like it's still a computer, but like it can actually like— it's kind of like us because it's like we can walk and we can talk and it can do basically whatever We can do like walk, run, jog.

Do you think that it can think the same way we can think?

Maybe.

Okay. Do you think that a computer mind is like a human mind?

I think it's probably going to be different.

How so?

When it's probably made like, it probably thinks like you just need to, you probably just need to type it in and then its brain thinks it like, instead like for a person you need to talk or just think about something.

So have you ever used Siri on your cell phone or something like that where you talk to the phone?

Yeah, I have.

So do you think that Siri is thinking the way you think?

Yeah, like, yeah.

So it sounds like if you type something in, then you don't think the computer is thinking. Is that correct?

Yeah, because it's like, it's, you're like asking the question and then he just tells you the answer. But maybe, but maybe the computer is thinking about the answer and then just telling you.

So earlier you said a computer is a machine. What makes something a machine?

For me, it's made out of like metal or maybe just made by you, like with cardboard or papers or paper and scissors, but that's like a real machine, like It's basically a machine because like we use it like, like a machine, like we use it like a machine.

Okay. Do you think that human beings are machines or not at all?

Like it's kind of, human beings are kind of like machines.

They're like, they're like big machines that can walk and talk and So are you now going back to the notion that maybe we are very similar to robots?

Yeah.

Do you think that you could be a robot?

Well, maybe, like a human robot. Mm-hmm.

Maybe. How would you know if you're a robot or not?

Uh, If I have metal?

Okay, so if you have metal in your robot. Do you think that Logan could be a robot?

Maybe. Maybe if he has a piece of metal in his body. I don't know.

So does one piece of metal make us a robot?

Nope.

How many pieces of metal before we become robots?

Like basically like the whole body. Like I see robots on TV shows like and they have like all like metal but, but, but what if there was this type of robot and it only had one piece of metal? On its arm or something.

Do you think it counts as a robot then?

Maybe.

Do you think that you are made of metal?

I don't think so.

So how could you be a robot if you're not made of metal? Do you think that dogs are robots?

Maybe. I don't know. But probably not.

So is there any— so probably not. So other than whether there's metal, is there any other way to tell if something is a robot or not?

Maybe that it's made by a person.

Okay, so if it's made by a person, um, are people made by Are people made by people?

Yeah, but I mean like out of paper, metal, or scissors.

Okay, so if it's made by a person, it's a robot. But you think that people— so do you think that Logan was made using— do you think Logan was a robot by that standard? I don't know, I guess I'm trying to— I'm struggling with Most people, I don't think people or dogs are made by other people using their hands.

Nope.

Nope. So do you know what makes a living thing different from a dead thing?

Like, what do you mean dead?

Well, that's a good question. That's a really good question. So I'm trying to get at, do you think computers are alive?

Inside, they are alive, for me.

They are? Is there life? Go ahead.

For me, they're just like alive, like inside, because like they're like basically thinking of what you're gonna try to tell them. Like inside, there's like hundreds of things. Like there's— it can like think of of answering the question that you're asking or something like that. So it's basically alive for computers.

Do you think it's alive in the same way that a dog is alive?

No, I don't think so.

So what's the difference? How is a dog alive in a way that a computer is not alive?

A computer— so that a computer What is like a machine, so it's made out of metal, and people are like made from other humans, so metal. And I think just like, I think it's just from something else, like, just like, you know, just like if like—

Sounds like this is hard to explain. Kind of. Is it okay to try to figure out things that are hard to explain?

Mm-hmm.

Do you think— but that's kind of what I'm getting at is what is alive? So you say computers are alive, but they're made of metal, but dogs are alive and they're not made of metal, right?

Mm-hmm.

Are mosquitoes alive? Yeah. How about sand? Is sand alive?

No.

How do you know that sand is not alive?

It doesn't— well, it's just like it just stays in one spot. Like it doesn't move or it doesn't— well, it's made by something. I just don't know, but I don't think it's alive.

Okay. How about, you know, sometimes you see dust specks kind of floating in the air. Sometimes when you see sunlight, you'll see little pieces of dust. Floating in the air, moving around. Do you think that those are alive?

I don't think so. I think they're just too light to— I think they're just so light that they just get carried into the air by some kind of wind that's in— that's close to you.

So do you think that everything that alive— is alive moves?

Well, not everything, like Like computers are basically alive but in their own way, and they move like just basically by us, like we do. They move like with us, like you can take them somewhere, but I don't think they move by their own.

And how about grass? Is grass alive?

Well, it has its own way of talking, the root Yeah, I know it does have its own way of talking because— but I don't think it's alive.

You don't think grass is alive?

No.

Okay, do you think trees are alive?

No, but there are living things living in trees that aren't alive. Like, like, are you talking about like an alive tree, like a new tree, or like Are you just talking about like moving around or are you just talking about like in a live tree like going outside?

I'm trying to figure out how you decide whether something is alive or not. And so you're telling me computers are alive and dogs are alive and people are alive. But grass is not alive and I was gonna ask about trees to see if you thought trees were alive or not.

So I think they are— I know that it's kind of hard to explain.

So how about a different question? Have you ever seen a dead tree?

Uh-huh.

Now do you think that dead tree used to be alive?

Like, you know, alive in its own way, like green and able to live in.

Yep.

Yeah, once it was alive like that.

So have you ever seen dead grass?

Like yellow grass and stuff?

Yep. So if something— if the grass is dead now, suppose— suppose there's a little patch of dead grass right now. Do you think it used to be live grass?

Yeah.

But you just told me—

It's like live in its own way.

So you're saying things like grass and trees are alive in their own way.

Mm-hmm.

But you used to say they were not alive. You said grass was not alive, right? Are you changing your mind?

Yeah.

Okay. Totally okay. Totally okay. So computers are alive in their own way. Grass is alive in its own way. And humans are alive in their own way. Is that right?

Yeah.

So how about humans and dogs? Are we alive in the same way that dogs are alive, or are they alive in their way and we're alive in our way?

They're like human things, like living, like moving things, basic, like dogs, cats, humans basically are alive in the same way, but they just Beach. Yeah.

Okay, so this is, this is, it's really, it's an interesting question to me at least. What counts as alive and not? Why not? What sinks and what doesn't? And I think these are really big questions, so in service of having you have time to play at the beach, maybe we'll wrap it up for now, but can we think about this stuff again in the future someday?

Yes.

Okay, have fun at the beach, Alana. Okay, bye-bye.