Socratic educator Michael Strong talks with five-year-old Alana about playing Set, her recent trips to Disneyland and SeaWorld, and when kids learn rules. Alana explains how Set works by matching colors, shapes, and numbers, and says children understand rules around age four or five. She recalls events only from age five onward and describes her 20-month-old brother Logan, who can say her name and a few words but cannot follow rules or have conversations.
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place somewhere.
Yeah, right now I'm in the Barboa Park where I had my birthday.
When was your birthday?
On 17th in August.
Oh, well, are you playing in that park?
No, not, not right now.
Okay, so what are the highlights of your week? What happened last week?
Last week, I'm— I—
Did you fly to the moon?
No, I didn't. The moon's too far.
Okay. Did you dig a hole to the center of the earth?
Oh, I remember what I did last week.
What?
I went to Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm and SeaWorld and San Diego Zoo with my cousins.
Wow, that's a lot.
Yeah.
What was your favorite?
All of them.
That's a lot. I went to Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm when I was older than you. I was maybe 8 years old. Oh, it was, it was fun. I remember it being really, really fun. So, I mean, and your dad said you played Set last night?
Yep, so I did.
Because a lot of people don't know what Set is, can you explain what Set is?
Sure, so you have to make a set of different colors or same colors.
And how— go ahead.
And if you want to make a set on that game, you can just get some cards and do a squiggle, one squiggle and two green stars, and like three, three red— I mean, three purple diamonds. Maybe that can be a set.
Can any— do you know what random means?
No.
So random means, um, suppose you just closed your eyes and picked cards, you know, and you had no idea what you were picking. So random means you have no idea what you're picking. Would that be a set or probably not?
Probably not.
Why not?
Because we'll have to 'Cause if we're wrong, we can just try to get it again, 'cause— but if we get it right, we can just put it in a set.
So when your eyes are open and you're playing the game, it sounds like you're trying to figure out which cards are in the set and which cards are not in the set?
Yeah.
How do you figure that out?
But I wasn't trying to do that the last night. I was trying to get a set.
But how do you know if you have a set?
I ask my dad if I have a set.
Can you sometimes figure it out on your own, or every time you have to ask your dad?
Every time I have to ask my dad because I don't even know that game now because I never played it in a long time.
Got it, got it. So do you play checkers still?
No, because I lost all the pieces.
Okay. Um, are— what, what kind of game— are there board games that you play or card games that you play?
I kind of play both, and— but not checkers.
What's your favorite game that you play?
Set.
Okay, um, but if— do you know the rules of set?
Yep.
What are the rules?
You have to— so you have to like do it the same color or a different color, and you have to make a set.
So it sounds like sometimes you do know what, what, whether or not you have a set without asking your dad.
I don't even know if I have a set or I, or if I don't.
So I'm trying to figure out if you, it sounds like you do understand the rules to the game, yes?
Yep, I do.
But you still have to ask your dad for help?
Yep.
And I guess I'm wondering if you always have to ask your dad for help every single time?
Well, I only have to ask him if I have a set.
I see, but when you pick the cards, it sounds like you're trying to apply the rules when you pick the cards, right?
Right.
And you know that if you just closed your eyes and did it randomly, you would not get the right cards, probably?
Probably.
Do you think Logan could figure out Set, or is it too hard for him?
It's too hard for him.
How do you know?
Because he's a baby still.
Are there any card games that he could play?
Nope.
Are there any games?
Not even a single— not even a single game.
Okay. Can he follow rules? Do you think he knows what a rule is?
Nope. Of course he doesn't, he's a baby!
Well, how about, um, well, how old is he? I forget how old he is.
I think 20 months, I think.
Okay, um, is there, what, does he know that he's not supposed to spill a glass of water?
Nope, he doesn't, and he still spills!
Okay, so how old do you think you have to be before you know what rules are?
5.
So that means when you were 4, you did not know what rules were?
I think 4. I mean 4.
Okay, because I remember you learned how to play checkers when you were 4, right?
Yep.
And you know the rules for checkers pretty well, huh?
Yeah.
Um, I think you— with all games, when you were 4, you learned lots of games and you could play by the rules, I think.
I think I did.
But you think when you were 3 you were still too little?
Yeah, I think I was too little.
Can you, can you remember being 3, or is that too far ago?
That was a little bit too far.
All right, do you remember anything about from when you were 4?
Nope, of course I don't.
Well, except you remember your birthday at Balboa Park, right?
Yeah, at least I remember my birthday. That would be sad if I didn't remember.
That would be sad, but the day before your birthday you were still 4, right?
Yeah.
So do you remember anything at all that happened before your 5th birthday?
Nope, I don't.
So it's just like you woke up out of the blue like you had been sleeping until the day of your 5th birthday, and that's when your whole life begins, right?
Yeah, I think it's like that, but I was not a baby.
But then how can you remember playing checkers when you're 4 if you don't remember anything from before you were 5?
Well, it's because it's a very, very good game, and it's because I still have the pieces, but I lost them.
How about your 4th birthday? Do you remember what you did for your 4th birthday?
Nope.
Okay, so life began on your 5th birthday, pretty much?
Pretty much.
Do you think that Logan is gonna have to wait until he's 5 for him to begin life?
Maybe 4 or 5, or maybe 3.
Okay, can you have a conversation with Logan?
No, of course not.
Does he say any words at all?
No, he says my name.
So, but just saying your name is not a conversation?
What? Excuse me?
Just saying your name does not count as a conversation, right?
And he also says A dada and a mama.
Okay, so not quite conversation.
Sounds like, like a conversation. And sometimes when I want him to say it, I say, Logan, say aya. Logan, say mama. Logan, say dada.
That's kind of like a little tiny conversation. Does that count?
Yeah, it's kind of. Okay, I think so.
Do you look forward to having conversations with Logan?
No, I just do him.
Okay, okay. Um, in which case, I just wanted to check in on your week and check in on set, and I really like learning about how, how you understand rules. So maybe someday again we'll talk about rules and how you understand rules. Okay?
