Michael Strong asks five-year-old Alana which animals think. She says dogs and cats do, but mosquitoes don't, judging by whether they're nice or solve problems. When Strong describes an octopus unscrewing a jar lid, Alana changes her mind and accepts problem-solving as the real test.
Well, I understand you just woke up.
Yeah.
Do you wake up quickly or does it take a while for you to wake up?
It takes a little while.
Well, it takes me a little while too, so thank you for being willing to think and talk even though you just woke up. So do you have, do you have, um, thoughts in your head sometimes?
Yeah.
How do you know?
Because I'm thinking about stuff sometimes.
Okay. Do you think your little brother Logan has thoughts?
Um, yes.
How do you know?
Because he's He's like pretty smart to not like spill things now.
So because he knows not to spill things, therefore he must have thoughts in his head?
Yeah.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
Okay. How about dogs? Do you think dogs have thoughts?
Yes, I do think.
How about cats?
Yes.
How about mosquitoes?
No.
Why not mosquitoes?
Because they don't know what they're gonna do, but they're not just thinking on their minds on what they're gonna do. They just, like, do it. Why don't, like, why don't mosquitoes, like, just be nice or something?
So you think mosquitoes are just doing whatever they're doing without thinking about what they're doing? Yeah. And do you think that if they thought about what they were doing, they would be nicer?
Yes.
Okay. How about fish? Do you think fish have thoughts?
No.
Why not?
Because, like, they're not thinking what's behind them. And whenever, like, they're just, like, leaping, someone would catch them and they wouldn't know what they were doing.
Okay, so some animals have thoughts like dogs and cats, and some animals like mosquitoes and fish don't have thoughts. Is that right?
Yeah.
Um, is it easy to tell which animals have thoughts and which animals don't have thoughts?
Yes.
How do you tell? If you were going to help me, suppose I really wasn't sure.
Like, how is it easy to tell if animals—
excuse me, you blanked out for just a second. So I was asking, how can I tell which animals are going to have thoughts and which don't? Suppose I discover a different animal tomorrow Can you tell me how I can know if that animal will have a thought or not?
Um, yes, I will.
So, but how do I know? How do I— is there a way that I can look at it and tell it? I just look at an animal, I know that one thinks, that one doesn't think?
Yeah.
What's the technique? Can you share it with me so I can know?
Yeah, like, wait, what did you say?
I, I want to know how to do— how I can tell whether or not an animal has thoughts. You know right away that mosquitoes and fish don't have thoughts, and you say that dogs and cats do have thoughts. And so I'm wondering about other animals so that I can tell for myself. Which ones have thoughts?
Like, other animals do, but other animals don't?
So how about horses? Do horses have thoughts?
Yes, I think they do.
How about cows?
Cows? Yes, I think they do.
How about turtles?
Turtles? Well, yes.
Okay, and lizards?
Yes.
How about octopus?
Octopuses? No.
No?
No.
So do you think that— how about sea lions?
Sea lions?
Yes. So I'm still trying to figure out how you know which animals think and which animals don't. Is it just kind of, you know it when you see it? As soon as you see an animal, you can just say, okay, that one thinks and that one doesn't think?
Yeah.
Is there any evidence that could convince you that an animal that you thought could think doesn't? Or that an animal that didn't think does?
Uh, yeah, like if one like doesn't think and you think it would, why would you think it would think?
Okay, so I'll give you an example that's interesting. And did you know, you know those screw-top jars where you put a, you screw the top on a jar? I, I've seen videos where they put an octopus inside one of those jars and they screw on the top, and then the octopus unscrews the jar from the inside. It puts its suction cups on the top of the jar and slowly unscrews it and then pushes the top off and then escapes.
Oh gee.
Does that sound like the octopus is thinking?
Yes, it does.
So why? Why does that count as thinking?
Because like it knows how to get out of things when it's captured. Because if there's little tiny, tiny holes and it cannot get out, it can get out. It can like turn really small and suck through the little holes.
Yeah, I've seen those videos too. That's really amazing.
Yeah.
So do you think if an animal can solve problems, that's evidence that it can think?
Yes.
Okay. Well, I will— I think we should both think about that and see if any animal can solve problems, then it thinks, and if it can't solve problems, it can't think. And that way, do you know what I mean? I'm looking for how I know how we can figure out whether any animal can think or not, because there are lots of animals we haven't even talked about.
Yeah.
And we need— I want to know how I can tell whether or not an animal thinks in the same way that you can decide it, because you sounds like you know right away whether or not an animal can think. Is that right?
Yes.
Okay, okay. Well, I, I am going to think about that, and I'm going to let you have breakfast and start your day. So have a wonderful week, and we will think next week.
Okay, bye.
Bye-bye.
