Starting Oliver Twist

So yeah, Charles Dickens, Oliver Twist. Tell me, like it, don't like it, easy, hard? What do you think?

I like it. I think it's interesting. The— I like the writing style. It's different from— obviously it's different from modern books that I read, which is exciting. And yeah, I'm enjoying the story so far.

Good, good. So, you know, obviously the life that Oliver leads is often very difficult and horrible. Have you ever read about anybody going through such difficult times before? Is this kind of new for you in that respect?

I mean, in comparison I have, but not like in a realistic world, I guess, because Most of the books that I've read before that have characters with difficult lives are like fantasy and stuff like that. So it's like kind of hard to imagine. But even though this is a little bit in the past, I can imagine it, which is pretty, pretty insane.

Did you say you can imagine it?

Yes, I can. Now that it's like not in a fantasy setting.

Got it. Just because I don't know the kind of, you know, obviously this is poverty and cruelty and crime and all these sorts of things. You know, abusiveness. When your characters in your fantasy novels go through difficult times, what kind of difficult times is this? Is it like war or disease, or what are the— what's the nature of the difficulty you've seen in fantasy?

Oh, well, yeah, it's kind of all of the above. Again, it's not super realistic. Like, sometimes— actually, in a sense they are, but most of the time it'll be like War or like loss of family members, or like they're on a quest and it's hard or something, or like trying to save the world, or they're fighting against a villain. And all of that, again, in a sense is kind of realistic, but it's, again, it's in a fantasy setting. So reading a book about someone my brother's age who's going through these things is pretty interesting.

Yeah, I hadn't thought that he's your brother's age, but yeah.

Yeah, I looked it up and apparently he's like 9 or 10 and my brother's 10. Exactly.

And I guess there are two— I would distinguish between, on the one hand, you know, just the physical suffering due to poverty, and then there's the cruelty. Are you surprised at the cruelty or Were you aware of the people? Do you think Charles Dickens is exaggerating the cruelty? How realistic is the cruelty? Maybe we'll put it that way.

From what I can imagine, I think it's pretty— I mean, I couldn't really— that's never— nothing like this has ever happened to me. I'm pretty sheltered, in a good way. But if I think about, like, things I've heard that's happened over time, Or the things that are happening now. I know there's pretty bad people out there who are probably doing this to kids like this in some places that I'm not— that I don't live in.

Got it. So the cruelty, in a sense, does strike you as realistic? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

Got it. Just in terms of timeline, Charles Dickens was born roughly at the same time as Pride and Prejudice was published. So, you know, Jane Austen's world—

Interesting.

Yeah, Jane Austen's world is obviously very different, very high-end, and then Charles Dickens was born and he actually— his father was put in debtor's prison for a couple of years and he was in a workhouse, so to some extent, yeah, it's actually based on his experiences, and of course maybe exaggerated, but maybe not, or I guess, yeah, well, I guess, do you think, to what extent is he describing things this way as kind of dramatic narrative to make us interested in the character, or do you think he should— he's trying to make us feel sorry for the kids, or why do you think Charles Dickens is writing it in this way?

Well, first of all, his motive is to get us to Root for Oliver, like in many stories, was going to be like a main character. And you want, like in The Odyssey, Odysseus is the main character, and even though he's about to go kill half the town, you still want to like him. So there's that. And, um, oh, one thing I noticed is that he uses, um, a lot of setting to like portray the mood. And like, oh, and he arrives in London, uses lots of like descriptive words, you know, it's stormy or stuff like that. That's not necessarily exaggerating. I mean, is it going to be stormy on that particular day? I don't know. But also, it just helps set the mood. I don't think he exaggerates that much. I don't know what life was like in London at that time or where they are in London, so I kind of did have to like go off of his word, but I think it's pretty realistic.

And of course, you're right, Oliver Twist is the protagonist, and that's coming across clearly. And it is interesting because he's such a different protagonist from, you know—

Everybody else.

Yeah, well, or I was going to say, going back to Odysseus, or Elizabeth in Pride and Prejudice, or Emma in Emma. That is a very different protagonist. So then there's also the— I don't know, would you say that Charles Dickens is making Is there any element of humor or comedy or funniness in this, or is it all kind of tragic and sad and grim? What are you getting by way of that tonality?

I think in terms of like actual story, there's one part that I've read that's like a little humorous just in the way that everything was revealed, but I don't think that the overall tone of the story is very humorous. I think it mostly focuses on the cruelty by Fagin towards Oliver and kind of his whole life has been pretty glum, but I think that later on maybe there will be some sort of, or a little more sense of humor.

Got it. When you mentioned some humor and how something was revealed, Do you remember what that was?

Yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't call it humor, but I think it's past 15 where you said you were. But one of the— the scene shifts back to the workhouse, or to the place where Oliver was born. And one of the old nurses who helped Oliver's mom give birth to Oliver was on her deathbed, and she was confessing something to 2 other people who are with her, and they're both pretty bad people. She was confessing that she stole something from Oliver's mom that was meant for Oliver, like something golden or like a locket, something worth the value. And I just thought, I mean, it wasn't humorous, but it was kind of funny how there was this like whole other narrative that Oliver doesn't know about and these 2 other characters that maybe he doesn't remember, but are like so invested in his life. I don't know, it's not like humorous, but I just thought it was interesting.

Got it. By the way, I'm up through chapter 19 now, so I think I did get to that, up through 19. But I think Reveal— I know I could imagine one version of writing this world where Charles Dickens is basically complaining about what an evil person the beetle is, complaining about what an evil person Fagin is. It is. Well, does he actually put it this way? Would you say Charles Dickens is saying these people are evil? Or how does— how do we— what is the tone regarding, say, Fagin?

I mean, in the beginning, when we first meet him, it wasn't evil at all. Oliver and maybe us thought that he was maybe a good person. He was helping him out. teaching him some stealing games, but he didn't know it was stealing. And then after the scene where Oliver tries to steal the thing from Brownlow, and then it all comes to him, and he's like, oh my God, I'm stealing, and maybe this guy isn't so great. That's when I think the reader kind of realizes that, well, maybe he's not great. Maybe he's a little evil.

Mm-hmm.

I don't recall him specifically saying Fagin is evil. I think everything is more Revealed in undertones like that.

And that's why I wanted to lean into the verb revealed. That is, there's a strategy in writing called show, don't tell. I think I mentioned it years ago. Do you remember talking about show, don't tell?

I think so. And I remember seeing it in the wild too.

Yeah. And the idea is instead of telling the reader, this person is evil, You show the evil actions, and the reason I like reveal is, yeah, my sense is that often Charles Dickens is sort of revealing the character, the character of the characters, the moral nature of the characters. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, it does.

Would you say there's anybody besides Oliver who's a good person in the book so far?

Uh, well, I, I mean, we haven't seen his final intentions, but I think Mr. Brownlow is good. Uh, he tried his best but couldn't— didn't work out. Um, and then also, I think there's another thing about show, don't tell with, um, Nancy. I think she's an interesting character, and I think that, um, she was raised in that environment, but deep down she's a good person. So I don't know if that counts, but that's what I think.

Would you say the characters in general are interesting and, you know, striking and memorable?

Yes. Yeah, for sure. They're all very different.

And Dickens is known both for the scenes— you mentioned the London scenes— Dickens sort of established the notion of a 19th century London as kind of dark and gloomy and foggy and all of that, and there are various movies that have that kind of version of 19th century London. The other thing he's known for are very vivid characters, and so, you know, I read this basically when I was your age, and I don't remember a lot of plot details, but I very much remember the kind of mood, you know, the gloomy mood, and also the whole thing about the pickpockets and the Artful Dodger and Fagin and I had actually forgotten how brutal they are, just unbelievably brutal. Yeah, but they're all, you know, colorful characters. You can imagine that, and there have been several movies made of this, but you can imagine that these kind of characters would be good movie material.

Yes. Cool.

Well, sounds like you're enjoying it. I'm enjoying it. So we'll figure out on WhatsApp how much to read for next time. But yeah, I'm around 19 and Yeah, we'll, we'll figure out what to read for next time. So fun to reread Oliver Twist. So selfishly, I'm getting to read things I haven't read since I was your age.

And it's cool.

Yeah, I have fond memories of them. I have very fond memories of this. So it was nice to kind of re-meet Jane Austen as I'm older and also to re-meet Charles Dickens, so to speak. And I mentioned because although in one sense we're meeting the characters, we're also meeting the authors. And yeah, you read 2 different Jane Austens, so you have a sense of her character, her style. You know a little bit about the Iliad and the Odyssey, so you know a little bit about Homer. Now you're getting your first bit of Charles Dickens. So marvelous. In which case, have a wonderful week and we'll see you next week.

Okay, thank you.