In this conversational interview, Michael Strong introduces James Clear’s Atomic Habits framework, focusing on its three layers of behavior change: outcomes, processes, and identity. Alana, the interviewee, explores how habits intersect with identity, using her own experiences as concrete examples. She describes her identity as a goal‑setter who works hard to achieve objectives, and illustrates this through three primary goals: competing in the ADCC Kids Open jiu‑jitsu tournament, publishing her third book, and completing Harvard’s CS50 course. For each goal, she distinguishes the outcome (winning the tournament, book publication, course completion), the process (training regimes, video analysis, study habits), and the underlying identity that drives her persistence. The discussion also delves into the origins of this identity, citing parental influence, early martial‑arts experiences, and the culture of jiu‑jitsu and wrestling. Throughout, Alana reflects on how habits become ingrained, how she reviews performance with her father, and how her identity informs multiple domains of her life. The interview concludes with well‑wishes for Thanksgiving.
Chapters
Um, so, uh, how is everything? How's school?
It's going really, really good.
Good, good. Um, I thought we'd discuss— you— have you ever heard of the book Atomic Habits?
Never.
Okay, so there's a book called Atomic Habits, and, uh, I put an excerpt in there And it's about, well, first, what is a habit?
I think it's something you train your body to do.
Okay.
I have a habit of brushing my teeth at night.
Yeah. This is a, this is a very popular book about how to develop better habits. And so there are 3 layers of behavior change. I'll read the first sentence and then I'll let you go for it. There are 3 layers of behavior change: a change in your outcomes, a change in your processes, or a change in your identity. I'm going to read the rest of it.
Yes. The first layer is changing your outcomes. This level is concerned with changing your results: losing weight, publishing a book, winning a championship. Most of the goals you set are associated with this level of change. The second layer is changing your process. This level is concerned with changing your habits and systems—implementing a new routine at the gym, decluttering your desk for a better workflow, developing a meditation practice. Most of the habits you build are associated with this level. The third and deepest layer is changing your identity. This level is concerned with changing your beliefs. Your world what? Your worldview, your self-image, your judgments about yourself and others. Most of the beliefs, assumptions, and biases you hold are associated with this level.
So do those 3 levels of behavior change make sense? I think so. Um, so why do you think he says the 3rd and deepest layer is identity? What does he mean by that?
I think because, I mean, you are your identity. Your identity kind of connects to your— I mean, kind of voicing of this, but your biases, your thoughts and your opinions. And then I would say habits.
So when you say habits, are you saying habits are part of identity?
Yeah.
So we, in this paragraph, we talks about process. The second layer is changing your process. This level is concerned with changing your habits and systems, implementing a new routine at the gym, decluttering your desk, better workflow, developing a meditation practice. Most of the habits you build are associated with this level. Um, so when you The way I'm reading this, it looks like he's saying habits are the process layer, and that's— so why do you think habits are the identity layer?
I think, I mean, the identity layer is, like they said, the deepest layer, and I think I agree with that. When you have a habit, it's ingrained into yourself. Usually it's really hard to break. Um, I think sometimes different habits— I mean, just depending on what they are, just the habits themselves can connect to the identity, to your identity, or doing them could connect to your identity.
So would you say that brushing your teeth is part of your identity?
Um, I don't think brushing my teeth necessarily would be a part of my identity just because of the habit. Everybody brushes their teeth. I mean, I'm not sure if that's a deep enough habit to be part of my identity fully.
So what's an example of a habit that is part of your identity?
Well, let's see, a habit for me would probably be I mean, setting— I'm not sure if this is considered as a habit, but setting goals and then working really hard to work for them, I think is something I've set for myself and I'm trying to set for myself. And I think that's something you could say is my identity.
So the identity portion is setting goals and working hard to achieve them? Yes. So using that as an example of part of your identity, Um, and are there any particular goals you're working on right now?
I have a few.
Can you give me an example, an example or two?
Um, I think one of the biggest ones is, um, well, number one, qualifying and then competing and doing good in the ADCC Kids Open. It's actually happening on the day before my birthday, so it's pretty special. Can it be?
Okay, so that's one. So the identity part is setting goals and working hard to achieve them. Using this, uh, and it sounds like the outcome goal— the outcome goal is winning the tournament or just doing as well as you can? Winning the tournament. Okay, um, so the outcome goal is winning the tournament. Then what is the process goal? The process layer.
The process layer is doing the best I can in training and preparations and I, I guess everything that in general about that's kind of leading towards my ultimate goal.
And just because I don't know exactly how it works, is it work just working harder in every training? Is it reading about it? Is it training more hours? Is it diet and physical fitness? What are all the dimensions of, you know, if you want to win that tournament, what are all the different processes you need to focus on? I think it's all of that combined.
I think especially pushing and not straying from the path. Mm-hmm.
Okay. So then the identity is setting goals and working hard to achieve them. In that case, then the process layer is working hard in practice and trainings, maybe training more, diet and nutrition. Are there things you can learn by reading about jiu-jitsu or that's not really— or watching videos? Is there anything you can learn at that level?
There's that. I mean, I've learned a lot by watching other people fight or spar and train and compete. I've actually never— I mean, there are definitely articles on jiu-jitsu that I've read, maybe one or two, but I haven't indulged in that fully. But there, I think there's something from everything.
And in terms of watching, have you only watched live matches or have you watched videos? I've watched both. I mean, I know that sometimes professional athletes and their, their coaches will go over games, uh, meticulously. Like, if they— whether they won the game or they lost the game, after a game they'll go over it. Do you go after your own? Do you look at videos of your own matches? I do. I'm alone or with a coach or with your parents? With my dad. And do you and he talk about what you did well and what you could have done better and that kind of thing? Yes. Very interesting. Do you and he always agree about what worked well, or do you sometimes get into disagreements about what happened during the match?
I think 99% we agree. There is always— I mean, it's a possibility, and I think this has happened like maybe once. or I think something happened, or that maybe the ref should have done something and, but he didn't. And then I got it, like, I don't know. But I think there's a, but yeah, we do agree on pretty much everything.
Got it. Okay. So this makes sense in terms of the identity layer, the process layer, and then the outcome layer is winning the tournament. What's another example of, um, a goal? Cuz working hard to set and achieve goals. It's part of your identity. Do you have another goal you're working hard to achieve?
Um, I mean, short-term goal is getting my third book published. That's a— I mean, I guess it's not a short term, but that's a goal I have.
Okay, terrific. Um, and you were going to go over to your editor's house the older woman the last time we spoke. And what was the outcome? Did she give you lots of good feedback?
I didn't get to go because I caught a bug and I was pretty sick for— I just got over a cold and I didn't want to give it to her because she's old. So I'm planning to go tomorrow.
Okay. So the identity part is working hard to achieve goals. And you would say you're getting your book published is one of the goals. Is that right? Yes. And that's— so would you say when you write, um, do you write out of a sense of goal and mission, or do you write because you love it, or it's the same thing?
Um, I think— I don't think it's the same thing, but I think I do it for a little bit of both.
Okay. Um, and then How about, are you still working on Harvard CS50?
I am. Zolake and I are working on it.
It's been really fun. And would you say you have a goal to complete that course? Yes. OK. Do you think that that will— what would the process layer be to that? So your identity is you work hard to achieve goals. The outcome layer there is finishing the course. What is the process layer? Of achieving that particular goal?
I think the process layer is very similar to my other goal. I'm just keeping at it and learning and growing and trying my best.
Okay. Do you find that you are either getting better at learning that course, or is it getting harder, or what's your learning process like there? Well, it's getting harder, but I think I think I'm learning more. Got it. Do you spend time outside of class, uh, or do you only spend time with Spelocki working on it?
Spend time out of class.
Got it. How much time?
Um, I don't think I could estimate it, but I spend time working on the project, and then once when I'm, when I'm done with the project watching the videos or the course.
I got it. So that makes sense in terms of your identity as somebody who sets goals and works hard to achieve them. And it makes sense that that one identity can serve you in your jiu-jitsu competitions, in your writing novels, and in your working on Harvard CS50. Do you have any other identities that are relevant to habits you have, or is that one identity the kind of the whole Alana, or most of Alana, with respect to habits you develop?
I mean, I think there's a few more, but I think that's probably the major one in a lot of the things I'm doing.
Where do you think you got that identity?
I think practice. I mean, It comes with the territory in a lot of things I'm doing. I think martial arts being one of the biggest ones, especially now because I've started wrestling and the process. I mean, it's very similar to jiu-jitsu, but there's a different culture around it and a different attitude. And I feel like, but that identity identifies to both. So now I'm having to do both. And that it's kind of ingraining it more.
Both what and what?
Uh, jiu-jitsu and wrestling. Oh, I see.
I see. Um, and wrestling, what's— is it just called wrestling? There's different kinds, but yeah. Okay, got it. Um, well, in terms of where you got your identity working hard to achieve goals, I was thinking of at least 3 possible answers. One was it's just natural. This is who Alana was born to be. Another is it's your parents, that maybe your parents gave it to you. And a third is, you know, jiu-jitsu gave it to you. Do you have a sense of to what extent it's just you, it's your parents, or jiu-jitsu, or something else? I think so.
I think my parents were very, very involved in that. They always strove for both my brother and I to have that mindset and, you know, to work hard and be grateful and things like that. Um, and then I think to an extent, especially when I was younger, I figured out that if I worked hard, or if I worked harder than everybody else, then I'd have a better chance of winning. But I, I don't think it's just because of winning. It makes me feel better.
Uh, how do you remember how young you were when you figured out that if you worked hard you had a better chance of winning?
Oh, I mean, I think I had a learning curve. I think when we— I think I was about like 7 or 8 when I like started competing a bit more and caring about if I won or lost. Um, and, and that's— I think that's kind of when we switched gyms. And the gym I'm at right now was like— I think I remember my first day, my knees were trembling and I was like brought to tears. Was so hard. So I think that's kind of when I kind of switched, uh, mindsets, right?
What was your mindset before then?
I mean, before, it was, it was very different. It's just I didn't— I wasn't working to all the goals I had now, I have now, um, if you're just thinking about martial arts. So I think I was less worried about, I guess, losing in general, though right now the process is just about learning, so I shouldn't be worrying about that too much.
Well, I think it's fascinating that at the age of 7 or 8 you kind of solidified this mindset and that it served you so well. So congratulations, and may you continue with that mindset for as long as possible. Um, have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Do you guys celebrate Thanksgiving? We do. All right, have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and we'll see you afterwards. Bye-bye.
