The Old Man and the Sea and vicarious experiences in fiction

I'm good.

Where are you headed off to right now?

Um, I'm just in, uh, the car. Nobody's here with me. We're actually at a tournament today again.

I thought you must be at a tournament again. Often when you're in the car, you're, uh, at a tournament. Have you, uh, competed yet?

No, I'm actually going to PM. My brother's going in about an hour though.

Got it. Okay, well, you know, last time we talked about, you know, your future and what you were envisioning for your future and things like that, and that was, you know, that sounded like when you were, you know, much older. We talked about when you were 20. It occurs to me that, um, in August you turn 11, is that correct?

Yes, it is.

So sometimes I think of teenager as 13, But in some ways, when one is in one's second decade, I don't know, do you think teenager is strictly 13, or is teenager, um, when you're over 10?

I mean, I used to always think being a teenager starts at 13 because there's the word teen in it.

Yeah.

Um, I guess being in the second decade sort of means something. I'm not sure if it specifically, um, means that you're classified teenager.

But, you know, I've always had that same confusion, and I think maybe officially it is 13 because the teen word, but it does seem like second decade is something somehow. Um, and so, yeah, what are your thoughts on entering your second decade?

Well, entering my second decade, I'm getting older and there's more responsibility um, school is getting harder, um, but overall I'm enjoying it.

Tell me about the more responsibility part.

Um, well, there's help around the house as well as just with my parents in general and my brother. Um, now that I'm older, I guess I could take on, or I could help more with my brother and my parents.

Do you like taking on more responsibility, or is it stressful or exhausting, or a little bit of all of the above?

It's not necessarily stressful, um, or not exact— not exhausting either, but I guess it's just kind of giving me more room to grow.

Do you like the idea of continuing to take on more responsibility as you get older?

Yes, because I think, or whatever that responsibility is, it'll teach me something.

And, um, how do you think you'll change in the next couple of years?

Well, in the next couple of years, uh, well, I'll be getting higher grades in school, I guess. Um, I'll be still— I'll still be doing jiu-jitsu. I don't know if that'll change. Um, there's the more help, and to be honest, I'm not that sure, um, what's gonna come up.

Yep, the future is uncertain. You mentioned school is getting harder. Tell me more about school getting harder. In what way has school gotten harder?

It's just the level, I guess. Um, there's— now that I'm homeschooled, I'm doing it all, most of it independently, um, and not with the specific curriculum with the teacher to be watching me, um, or not, not a teacher 24/7 anyways. So in that way, I guess it was a bit harder this year, but I think that as I grow up with the level of work, uh, growing. And then— and I think I'll do fine, but I just— I, I guess I would assume that it would be getting harder as I, as I get older.

Got it. How was Ursula Le Guin for you? Was Ursula Le Guin easy for you, hard for you, or in between?

Well, if I would— if I were to read it I wasn't— I wouldn't say it was hard. I think since we were just reading it as a group, we were going a bit slower than— uh, we were going a bit slow, but it wasn't hard, but it wasn't easy. I guess it was in that zone where it's a good fit.

Did you read any Ursula Le Guin outside of class?

I would— I did start to read the second book, though I haven't continued with that yet.

Would you say it's hard to read on your own, or it's okay?

It's not hard to read on my own. I've read tons of books on my own, um, but when you have a lot of books to read, I guess that sort of makes it harder, especially if it's all on your own.

My sense is that Ursula Le Guin's sentences and language and vocabulary are more complex than, say, Harry Potter. Does that strike you as accurate?

I think so.

Got it. What else are you reading on your own these days?

Um, I am reading— I recently finished The Old Man and the Sea. I'm slowly but surely reading Lord of the Flies.

That's right, you were telling me about Lord of the Flies. How far into it are you?

A bit more than halfway.

Are bad things starting to happen?

What do you mean bad?

Well, I don't want to give— I don't want to spoil it for you.

Okay, well, I'm on the part where the group of boys kind of start to divide into two groups.

Mm-hmm. Does it— and again, I've already given you a tiny bit of a spoiler. I don't want to— I don't want to spoil it for you. But does it seem plausible that some bad things might happen?

Yes.

Um, and so what do you think is happening when the boys are divided into the two groups? Um, what's going on?

Two of the boys don't necessarily like each other, or maybe, maybe more than two. That's— I think that's sort of what started that rift between them.

Mhm.

Uh, one's— they're, they're all different. Are good at different things, um, and that they're— they both have different personalities. And so they split. And I wouldn't say they're rivals since they're so kids and just recently formed into two new groups, but they're not working together necessarily anymore.

Have you ever seen in real life, um, groups split like that?

Yes.

Where, at your other school or in, um, jiu-jitsu, or where, where have you seen that?

For a group split apart, I— well, to be honest, I think I've seen it once or twice, but I forgot where it happened. But I can easily imagine that happening, I think, is what I meant.

Got it. So maybe what you see is that these human motivations sound Um, realistic?

Yes.

Got it. Um, yeah, I, I think, I think Lord of the Flies is pretty well done. And we said you're going through it slowly. Is it just— why, are you busy, or it's difficult, or why are you going through it slowly?

I think all of those. It's, it's definitely a bit more difficult than a lot of the other books I've read.

Yeah.

Oh, plus I'm reading a ton of other books also.

Got it.

But I'm reading a few other books that—

how about Old Man and the Sea? How is that going for you?

I, I've recently finished that, actually. I don't know if I mentioned that, but you like that? I did. I— it's definitely one of my favorites.

Oh, really? Tell me why.

I, I'm not sure. I like the story. I like what— or I like how It's kind of to the point, but stretches that out very long.

Um, I would've thought that it would've been boring for a kid cuz not, like, not a lot happens, right?

Yeah, not really. But I think, or in the beginning I was, um, not enthused, but I kept on reading and then I got to the good part.

Mm-hmm.

And it really excited me.

And I take it you care about the character. I think for me to like something, I almost have to care about somebody in the book. And so you must have cared about the old man. Is that accurate?

Yes.

Why did you care about him?

Well, he's tied to the fish and risks his life over it. I think that means something. He also seems like a good character in general.

Do you think you like the idea of a deep struggle like this? Is the struggle between the man and the fish part of what kept you engaged and part of why you like it?

Yes, I think so.

Yeah. Why do you think we like to read about struggles?

I think that We like to read about others' struggles and then sort of think about our own. And then usually the person who's struggling comes up and does whatever he's doing and stops struggling and lives, or, and in the end is happy. Um, and I think that for people who are going through struggles, they'd like to see that happen to them. And they might like to read people about people who are struggling without actually noticing it.

Um, that makes sense. Do you remember Freytag's Pyramid or Freytag's Triangle?

Yes.

How would that apply to The Old Man and the Sea?

Wait, I might be mixing it up with something else. Is it the triangle about the climax and then resolve, or something else?

Yep, no, that's exactly right. Cool.

Then that could definitely relate to the book. In the beginning, like I said, I wasn't— or it was a bit slow, I guess. And then as it got higher up the triangle or the pyramid, it started getting, uh, more interesting, I guess. Um, and it reaches its climax, it starts going down. Um, I think the part where he catches the fish and starts to fend off the sharks is kind of the climax. Um, has, has kind of a short result. He just, he goes home and finds the boy.

And often we talk about the, the protagonist in the story. Um, sometimes we think of the protagonist as a hero Do you think the old man in The Old Man and the Sea is a hero or not really?

Um, well, I guess he's the hero in a sense where he catches the fish and fends off the sharks, but he— I mean, I guess some people might not view him as a hero, um, because their definition of hero might be saving somebody or something like that. Um, But I think he is that character who goes through and— or who pulls through and catches the fish, literally. Yeah.

No, I think it's interesting. It's interesting. I find it interesting to sort of see these— this common structure across stories and then to think of both fictional struggles and real-world struggles. As related? Would you say fictional struggles are in some sense like real-world struggles?

I think they can be. The author could have based them off of some worldly problem and solved it in their own way. And you could probably— with— it might relate to real-life problems without the author knowing it. Mm-hmm.

Do you think that The Old Man and the Sea reflects— do you think you've had struggles in your life that are anything at all like the emotional dynamic there, or you've never been through anything at all like what he went through?

Well, what he went through was hard physically and emotionally, especially just for him. Um, I'm not sure if I've been through anything just like that, where I feel so attached to something but I kill it anyways, like he's doing to the fish. I don't know. I don't know if I know of anybody who has.

One way I think about the value of reading is I think it's useful to kind of explore other worlds that we haven't experienced. And, you know, our imagination gets to go in all kinds of these different worlds and experiences. And in a way, I think it helps when I was a kid, even when I was a kid, I think it helped me kind of imagine different possibilities in life just to kind of go through all these vicarious experiences. Does that make sense?

Yes.

Would you say that's part of why you like reading is to kind of get to experience these? Do you know what the word vicarious means?

I don't.

Okay. A lot of times I use, you know, fancy words just to see if people get them. But vicarious means that you don't actually experience it. Their experience is a substitute for your experience. And so, yeah, you don't have to go through actually, you know, being out on the ocean and losing the fish, and you don't have to go all through all this stuff, but you get to experience it as if you did with kind of none of the pain. You know, you close the book and, you know, you can go eat a sandwich in your kitchen as opposed to whatever you think he went through. Does that make sense?

Yes.

So do you, do you think it's valuable to have all of these vicarious experiences?

I think so. I think you might just enjoy it overall, or it might teach you something without actually having to go through that experience. Yeah, because I'm one of those people who, when they read sort of imagine myself in that situation.

Yeah, that's the whole joy of reading. It's so much— I'm again, I still read books, mostly I read nonfiction as an adult, but when I was your age, reading was one of my greatest joys, possibly. And there are other fun things to do for sure. I love playing outside, but I have— I think reading is just so much fun, and I take it you do as well.

Yes.

All right. Well, I, again, I'll look forward to Lord of the Rings. I'm tempted to spoil it for you, but I'm going to be very strict and I won't say anything more. So have a great competition today, and I look forward to hearing next week how things go. Okay?

Okay.

Thank you, Michael Strong.