Why do we learn some things naturally and others not?

So yeah, it's good to see you again. It's been a little while. Um, what I wanted to explore today is I'm, you know, often I'm thinking about things and I want to see if you think or how you think about the things I'm thinking about. But, you know, as an educator, I think about learning a lot. And one of the things that is of deep interest to me is how sometimes we learn things like, um, walking and talking our own language naturally. Both you and your brother and all of us just kind of spontaneously learn how to talk. We spontaneously learn how to walk. Whereas other things like, you know, maybe math or Harvard CS50 or learning a new language requires special effort. That is, you know, very few people spontaneously just learn algebra on their own. Makes sense?

Yeah.

So why do you think there's some things we learn naturally and other things we do not learn learn naturally?

Um, I think the things that you referred to as learning naturally are things that we see everybody do, like, every— like, um, all the time. So talking— everybody talks, whether it's a different language or what. But if it's— well, I grew up around English-speaking people, so, um, I'm not saying that's the only reason why I was able to learn it spontaneously, But I think since it was such an important skill because I grew up alone around English speakers, then it maybe would almost become an instinct for me as a human to need to learn that language. And then walking too. Everybody needs to walk unless you're— well, yeah, most people walk every single day. And it's an important skill to be able to learn how to walk. And if you don't know how to walk, then life's going to be difficult. And then with things like algebra or programming or things that maybe you typically learn in school, I think one of the differences is that not everybody does it, so you're not constantly surrounded by it your entire life. So with math and algebra, I'm only doing that around people Or right now, are my classmates and my teachers, and then my parents have done it before, but they're not constantly doing it. So maybe they're not as much of help, or I'm not learning the habits, and I don't have an instinct to learn math right away.

Got it. Well, maybe we'll go back to math a minute, but I'm gonna take a different example. You know, in our society, pretty much everybody knows how to read. And so if you're a criterion is, does everybody do it? Do we need to teach kids to read?

Okay, um, that's a good point because I think everybody should know, um, learn how to read and know how to read. But some people, especially parents, maybe don't emphasize it enough. Like, my dad and mom, like, really, really wanted us to learn how to read at a very, very young age. So I was reading chapter books at, like, like 5. Meanwhile, there's kids that I know who can't read and they're about to turn 8 or 7. So maybe, I mean, according to my logic, if it's something everybody does, it might be an instinct or something that you know you need to learn. But I guess with this example, you need to be maybe encouraged by other people or helped by other people in order to learn how to read. And also, I think you need to be taught the importance of reading. And I guess that could be applied to everything you learn.

Okay, so this is all interesting. So you need to be at least encouraged. Do you have any idea why reading might be different than, say, talking and walking? Your first hypothesis was that if everybody does it, we naturally learn it. Now it sounds like, based on your own experience even, you know, Some people know how to read, some people don't. So why would we need to encourage or teach people to read but not to walk or talk?

Here's another thought. Maybe because walking and talking are something that humans have done, or every single human has done over history, and then reading might maybe something we invented. And so it takes skill to be able to, um, do it.

Um, interesting hypothesis. Uh, do you know much about either the history of reading or the history of the written word or anything like that?

Uh, no, not really.

Um, do you think that we were reading a million years ago, 500,000 years ago?

Um, I mean, not only were monkeys I mean, so I guess based on that, we must have— I mean, when we learned how to write, or maybe when we learned how to talk, and then being able to write was invented to keep records. And then at that point, people needed to understand that writing. So even though it wasn't like words and letters or characters, I guess they could have been just symbols to indicate stock or crops and things like that. People needed to be able to understand those. And then I think over time it developed into the reading and writing that we do now. And I guess I think that supports my hypothesis a little, but yeah.

Fair enough. Do you know what hieroglyphics are?

Yes, I think so.

Yeah. So, you know, the ancient Egyptians, ancient Sumerians, different time periods, say roughly 5,000, 6,000 years ago, there's kind of a gradual process. Initially, hieroglyphics are sort of images that are then kind of words as opposed to letters. I don't know them, but there might be something that looked a little bit like an eye, and that might symbolize something. Something else might look like a bird, That is, we started maybe 5,000 or 6,000 years ago to have symbols that then communicated, bless you, word sorts of things. And then gradually over thousands of years, systems of letters were developed where, you know, in modern English, letters pulled together create words. But going back to your earlier point, before, say, certainly 10,000 years ago, Maybe there are very simple primitive symbols, but there was nothing remotely like reading as recently as 10,000 years ago, which is pretty recent in human history. Makes sense?

Yes.

So, you know, assuming reading is maybe less than, say, 5,000 years old, whereas walking and talking are much older than that, you know, so I kind of gave you a historical piece you were speculating about. How does— remind me how the relative recent addition of reading might impact how we do or do not learn reading naturally?

Well, my hypothesis earlier was that since it's not something that we've been doing for all of human history, then maybe we don't have an instinct to learn it at a young age. It needs to be fostered by other humans and taught to us. And I don't know if my heart, like, that wording is true, but I think at some level it is true because, um, with help from my parents and other, um, and other adults in my life, I learned how to read young. And then other kids that I've known don't care about reading, and their parents don't care about reading, and they're not even aware that they that their child doesn't know how to read. So I think I still stand by my hypothesis, but there might be other reasons why skills like reading aren't particularly as, um, or why they aren't an instinct.

And tell me more about what you mean by instinct. Of course I'm familiar with the word, but I want to dig into how you understand the word instinct.

I guess instinct, because, um, I mean, babies at a young age, maybe— I mean, I've known babies that at maybe 7 or 8 months are pulling themselves up and like starting to walk. And I think that's a pretty young age for them to start doing that. And I think it might either be a mix of seeing their parents doing that and other humans walking on their legs instead of crawling on their hands and knees, and I guess by instinct I mean maybe not the sense where your mind already knows how to do it. Like, maybe an— actually, maybe an instinct would be breathing. Like, everybody knows how to breathe without being taught. It's the first thing you do. I guess walking might be something you're able to pick up on your own, like how babies are able to do that just by watching and maybe some assistance from their parents or other adults. Talking, you know, I don't think talking comes as early. I think it's observed mostly by observation from the child and then assistance from the parent because they're always like, "Can you say 'dada'?" or something like that. And then reading at another level is, by my experience, it's taught to kids and Their parents and other adults help them. They read to them and then they teach them how reading works, even at schools now. So it's not an instinct like maybe breathing is, but it's not something you can just learn by watching, like maybe, or yeah, trial and error, like walking and talking. I guess it is something you can learn by trial and error, but I don't think it's the same. It's not as fundamental as those two things. It's something that came a little later, if you know what I mean.

So thank you. Digging into the notion of instinct. So, you know, it seems like you're pretty clear that maybe reading is not instinctive. Breathing is definitely instinctive. But I guess I'm not quite clear on the status of walking and talking in particular because It sounds as if you're saying we learn to walk— let's stick with walking first— we learn to walk by imitating other people. And if imitating was the only means required to learn to walk, then it seems like kids might just imitate other adults and learn to read. So is it just imitation that leads to learning to walk?

Um, I don't know if it's just imitation, like me, if I'm a baby seeing my dad walk, and then me standing up and trying to do it, it takes trial and error, I think. And then maybe some assistance, but let's just stick with imitation and trial and error. I think, I'm not sure what its status is in terms of instinction or non-instinction. But it, I don't think it's like a primal instinct, like learning how to breathe for humans. And you don't even learn, you just do it. Pretty sure.

Um, so what about, you know, some baby animals I'm thinking of, um, some baby animals I'm thinking of maybe a baby fawn, you know, a baby deer, a fawn. Um, you know, in the, when they're very first born, They kind of collapse on the ground when they come out of their mom. But within, I don't actually know how long before they stand up, but I think it's at least 5 minutes, 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, maybe an hour. So do you think that fawn, and then after they stand up, then pretty quickly they're walking. Do you think that fawn, the fawn is imitating its mom when it learns to stand up for the first time?

I think that could be one of the factors. I think there are other factors too, maybe besides mutation. I don't know how long the pregnancy process is, but for humans, it's only 9 months, right? I think I remember watching or learning somewhere that a lot of other animals spent a lot more time in their mother's womb. So maybe they have, or they're able to observe more and maybe not observe, but like be around. Actually, you know, I have no idea what the terminology is, but they're able to do things that maybe human babies can't. Like, human babies completely depend on their mothers, and so do other animal babies, but they're, like you said, they're able to walk and stand very shortly after their birth, while humans take months to years. So maybe that's a factor. Another factor could possibly be that maybe a deer, for example, I don't know if they're always on the move or not, but they do have to move around to eat and sleep and things like that and drink, while humans most of the time have a home. They stay there most of the time, the baby stays there most of the time, especially at birth. I don't know if those are the only factors, but those are the ones that came to mind.

So just to make sure I understand you correctly, were you suggesting that maybe fawns stand up sooner? First of all, I think fawns are in their mother's belly in a shorter period than humans. Humans have actually one of the longest gestation periods of any mammals. But were you, were you thinking that if they were in their mom's belly longer, they would learn to walk faster after they're born?

No, I guess my point was maybe they'd be able to develop a little bit more, but I didn't know that humans had one of the longest— did you say gestation periods?

Gestation.

Gestation.

Yeah, that's—

so maybe scratch that theory. And I don't know how accountable the other one is about humans being maybe mostly stationary and the other animals being on the move. Maybe, maybe we could circle back to, for other animals, walking being one of those instincts like breathing, and then for humans somehow it's not. I'm not sure.

So suppose, and this is an interesting hypothesis, so suppose a fawn standing up and walking is instinctive, And you're saying a human, it's not instinctive simply because it takes longer?

I, yeah, I guess that's what I'm saying. I don't know if it's not instinctive, but maybe not as much of an instinct as it is for other animals who learn to stand and walk a lot sooner than humans do.

I'm thinking, you know, baby kittens are born blind. I forget how long before they see. You know how long it takes before a baby kitten can see?

Uh-uh, no, no, I don't.

It's a while. It's weeks at least. It's at least weeks. So, um, would we say that, uh, seeing is instinctive for a kitten or a cat or not?

Um, that's a good question. I don't know. I guess then we have to define instinctive. Because I don't know if their eyes are still developing or what, but if they can't see, then they're not able to do it, I guess. I don't know. I'm picturing maybe something over the cat's eyes, but it might just be that their eyes aren't formed or something.

So, I mean, part of this is, and we're kind of going along, this is a super interesting conversation, but it does feel as if we need to understand what it means to be instinctive. Is kind of the implicit point of some of my questions is that yes, breathing instinctive, you know, we come out of the womb, we're breathing, um, walking and talking, you know, walking and talking are later. And yet animals clearly have some delay between birth and say, in the case of fawns standing and walking, or in the case of kittens actually seeing. And so I guess the question I'm wondering is it might be that we have some instinctive behaviors that are delayed after the point of birth?

So delayed instincts, like, I think I get you to what you mean.

Yeah. It sounds like when you think of breathing, instinct has to be the moment of birth, but is it fair to say that probably a fawn's ability to walk is instinctive and probably a kitten's ability to see, even if it's delayed by weeks, is instinctive?

Yes.

So possibly there might be at least some instinctive aspect to human beings walking and talking, even though it's delayed a year or more?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay. I don't want to twist your arm, but you see at least why some people might believe that human beings have some instinct to walk and talk, even though it doesn't happen at birth.

Yeah, I see.

Okay. Really, there's super interesting issues here in kind of the development of human beings. And so in the fullness of time, you might want to read about human development. Again, really interesting subject. And people have studied babies and how they develop because, of course, we care about babies, how they develop. So yeah, in the fullness of time, lots of cool stuff to read. But I want to keep these reasonably short, and we're already at 19 minutes. So So wonderful to catch up with you, Alana. Have a wonderful week and hasta luego.

Thank you. See you later.