Financial Therapy 101: How Your “Money Scripts” Controls Your Future | Ideas by Mike™ EP54

Welcome back to the Ideas by Mike podcast. This is Mike Milligan. Today I'm sitting down with someone I've wanted to have a conversation with for some time. My guest is Erika Wasserman, known to the world as Your Financial Therapist. Erika is one of fewer than 100 certified financial therapists in the entire country. She holds a graduate certificate Certificate from, uh, in financial therapy from Kansas State University. She's a global keynote speaker and a corporate wellness partner for major organizations. She's just authored a brand new book from Wiley called Conversations with Your Financial Therapist: Stories and Scripts to Grow Your Financial Mindset. That book's endorsed by none other than Barbara Corcoran, Barbara Corcoran from Shark Tank. You'll know her, you know, Mr. Wonderful, Mark Cuban, uh, Daymond John, that Shark Tank. Erica created the Money Mindset Method after working with thousands of clients. She built the Let's Talk Financial Conversation Cards, Couples Edition and Divorced Edition, that are now available on Amazon, and they're Amazon bestsellers. And she has a gift for taking the most taboo topic in America, money, and making it funny, useful, and shockingly relatable. So Erica, let's start where you start with every client with a story. You teach that our money beliefs come from 3 places: our background, our religion or culture, and our experiences. You've said that 90% of our financial decisions are emotional and that your 7-year-old self is still in a lot of ways calling the shots on what you do with money today. So my big question here is for somebody standing on the doorstep of retirement, We're already 5 years into it. What does it look like to actually identify the money story you've been living by? And how does that story quietly sabotage the retirement plan that on paper should be working just fine?

Yeah, it's amazing the stories that show up subconsciously, um, that we have, and especially when we're in a big life shift like retirement, all of a sudden that little kid shows up. And, and the stories that you've, you said background. So how our parents were talking about retirement, depending on how you are, retirement was a big word in your house, you know, meant end of life for some people. Then we're looking at culture. When you retire, you're put out to pasture. And then also experiences. So if your parents retired and lived a great life and traveled and had money, in a pension back in the day, then retirement might not seem as scary. If your experience with retirement is feeling destitute or living off of Social Security and feeling constrained, you're not going to be as excited to retire. But we often don't think about retirement as the emotional side. We're so busy doing the math of retirement, right? When you meet with your advisor, you get your pen and your paper out and, you know, what dollar amount do I need to retire? We're not actually starting to live that retirement lifestyle. And so when I work with clients, it does, what does retirement actually look like for you? What does that lifestyle feel? And when you can start living it and feeling it and seeing it, you back into the numbers versus the opposite way. Does that make sense?

It does. And I, so I want to, I want to talk about money scripts, but before we talk about that, I want to, I want to define what a money script is. If you don't mind.

Sure.

Uh, so in, in your words, what is a money script?

You know, a money script is something that we fall into. Oftentimes money scripts, um, is a way of classifying who we are. Money avoidance, money worshiper, you know, there's different ways of classifying us. So everybody loves a good label to fall into. But oftentimes when I look at a money script, it's looking at yourself and your patterns and your behaviors. And then what does that script relate to you?

Yeah, I, oh yeah, go ahead. I think about it like, you know, as a kid, we are sometimes, uh, we sometimes, the things are caught more than they're taught. Like people see what like parents or, or even influential people do in their life. And I think that's what you're saying is like, it's a script is something that is just Continually that just builds up and compounds over time on you, and it's how you make money decisions. Does that sound accurate?

It absolutely does. And let's go back to that 7-year-old. So if you're listening right now, if you can close your eyes, if you're driving, don't recommend that. But I don't want you to think about 7-year-old self. So that's first grade if you grew up in the US, the lunch table. What did the lunch table look like for you? Did you bring lunch? Did you buy lunch? Was it free lunch? Were you not eating lunch?

Well, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll, I'll play this game with you, right?

Yeah.

Okay. Because I could, I could remember a little 7-year-old Mikey sitting there. I was in Ms. Farley's class at Laurel Hill Elementary School. Uh, man, she, she was such a disciplinarian. I remember her just a great teacher. Um, but I was on free lunch. And so every day I would walk through the lunch line and they would just hand me a tray. Right. And it was, uh, and it was, I didn't get a choice. I couldn't say, can I have extra milk? Or can you put another slice of pizza? I had no choice. It was just, it was just there.

Right. So that 7-year-old mindset is being shaped right there. And it's interesting when I do group work with this, I worked with one woman who was on the free lunch and another woman who was— mom just threw in Walmart crap, I'll say, for lack of a better word, right? It was just to fill the lunch bag. There was no protein. It was a lot of carbs. And the girl across the way was saying, man, I was jealous of you because you got to trade food. Right. In first grade, having the ability to trade food at the lunch table was a big currency. And she said, you know, I was jealous of the person who got the hot meal because you actually had some nutrition in your food.

Wow. And, you know, I, I look back on it from my standpoint because I've thought about that same question before. And like when my kids were in school, I would wake up every day when they were in school, when I was working, you know, I'm professional, right? So I get up in the morning and I work out or walk and I eat breakfast, but I would make my kids lunch, but I would make a hot meal for them every day. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, this applesauce and this and that, right? I mean, they loved those. They loved those little applesauce to-gos, but it was a sandwich or, you know, I would make pasta for them, but it was because I wanted them to have something that I didn't have.

Right.

It's my legacy. So the money scripts. So what are the most common money scripts that you see in retirees specifically?

Yeah. Oftentimes what I hear them saying is, I can never retire, right? Because I can never stop working. And when we start looking at it again, your advisor says you have enough money to retire. Then what they're presenting with is, if I retire, who am I?

Hmm.

Because for the past 40 years, let's say, You've been known for one thing. You've made a name for yourself. You're getting validation from the outside world that you are great. Thanks for that great advice, Mike. Oh, that was helpful. Oh, I made a difference in George today. Right? And all of a sudden, if that goes away, that light switch goes off, who am I?

Right.

And so all of a sudden, it's not about the dollars and cents. It's about your identity. And so the goalpost keeps moving. Oh, I'll retire in 2 years. Oh, I will when this happens. I don't even like the word retirement. Sorry. Um, if we're gonna go there for a minute.

Yeah.

I call it phase 3. In today's day and age, I am, and people are living longer, right? So 65 is no longer being put out to pasture. 65, it's like I'm finding people in their prime. They got experience under them. They're excited about what they're doing. They finally found their passion. It might not necessarily need the money to do it. So I call this phase 3. So it's not a light switch where you're going from working 60 or 40 or 80 hours a week to zero. You're able to identify what you love to do and able to do it in maybe a different way. And that helps with that transition to call it retirement. I call it phase 3. You know, first phase is your childhood, you know, educating yourself. Second phase is the grind. And now phase 3, we get to enjoy it a little bit. And what that is, is a balance, hopefully, of working and playing and play and work look different for everybody.

So, I mean, like the way you talk about phase 3 is a great way to mentally get people to see that it's like not this, um, this end of life event that retirement was for generations in the past. And I love that whole concept of phase 3, just for our listeners too, what's phase 1 and phase 2?

Yeah, so phase 1 is your education phase. This is your childhood. This is your learning, your seeking. Phase 2 is the grind, is what I call it, right? This is climbing the corporate ladder, your entrepreneurship, raising family. You know, you're really putting money away, you know, for that quote unquote retirement or phase 3. And the phase 3 is the work, the hard work's been done. You got up to the top of the hill. But you're not ready to go down so steep. Phase 3 is you get to enjoy the view and work a little, play a little, give back, whatever makes you happy.

Right. I love it. So this topic of the money story you're bringing into retirement has so many depths and layers to it. It's almost like my granny's chocolate cake. That just layer after labor, there's scripts that are there, but there's also so much about like, do I use an advisor? What are my beliefs? What are my behaviors? What am I actually going to— the identity that we talked about with scripting, what are the most important parts of getting into phase 3? Using your words, uh, that, uh, that, that you see people need help with?

Oh, that's a big one. You know what I, what I see people coming to is a lot of biases that are not based on facts. And so you just mentioned, you know, when do you get involved with Working with an advisor. Well, if you ask yourself and pause right now for listeners, what has been the messaging about advisors that I've received? The messaging could be from your community, from the news, from whatever. Oh, advisors are a hack. You know, advisors are amazing. My guy, you know, he made me 20%, whatever it is. You're getting this data from other sources. And then making a decision based on other people's experiences. So asking yourself, what would an advisor mean to me at this stage of life? And when I see people asking for help is because they want to change their patterns. They've been doing this for 20 years. They're like, I should have done better. I could have, I should have invested earlier. I could have done this. And so these patterns that we've created for ourselves, we wanna change and shift. And that's when they show up for me as a financial therapist. And that's when they show up as an, with an advisor too, 'cause they're realizing I could have done this differently and maybe it's now time to hand it over to somebody who specializes in this. Advisors specialize in money markets and understanding finances. Orthopedic surgeons specialize in a part of a body, right?

Right.

We can't expect everybody to be advisors and money managers. If you haven't spent days and hours and years and lifetimes studying it the same way you don't walk into an orthopedist asking for a cardio, a heart question. And so understanding when you're working with a professional, it's somebody who specializes in this area and you have to build trust. And that's the other aspect of working with an advisor. It's not necessarily the dollars and cents of like, oh, I'll give you a great return. It's going to be the trust in the person's decision-making and the values are similar to you, which also means you have to share some information so they can know who you are as a person and do what's best for you. Each person is different. Uh, wow.

On that topic, right, about the money story, that is a great way to put a bow on that one because advisors are a lot like hamburgers, right? Uh, everybody's had a good one and everybody's had a bad one.

So never heard it put that way, but like, yes. And some, you know, and some are, you know, yes. All that.

I make that comparison all the time, Erica. You will see the hamburger, right? Because like the one-size-fits-all world is the 2 all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun. It's a Big Mac, right? Yeah. They've, there's more Big Macs sold than probably every other cheeseburger combined. And that Big Mac is Edward Jones and Fisher Investments and JP Morgan. I mean, those guys, right? Who it's going to be the same pie charts all along. But like our clients, when they're trying to really create a money story, they seek independence. They seek something that's one of a kind in their conversation. But I think one of the things that you have brought to light here is that money scripts, behavior, beliefs, and identity are really the most important, almost more important than what the actual money is. Because without identifying those, without understanding what those are, then it's just a dollar bill. But when you understand what those are, it becomes experiences, right? That really are transformational.

I mean, here's the thing. A dollar bill is a noun, is a thing. It's the same as a pen, but yet it carries so much emotion and energy. And so by spending time with your money and understanding where that energy flows, you're then able to have a more prosperous life because you're intentional with that energy versus letting it happen.

100%. I want to go to topic 2, which this is a really easy topic to cover. I mean, it's just like so simple. I mean, like, Pay attention to this one, listeners. Um, I'm here with Erika Wasserman, uh, and we are going to talk about the conversations couples are not having but must. Such an easy conversation to have, right? Is it?

But this— couples rather talk about anything but money. But money, everything bubbles down to, did you really go to Starbucks again? It's not about the coffee we're arguing about, is it?

That's right. So this topic though is right at the center of your work. And I'll be quite honest with you, is why I wanted to have you on the podcast is because this is, you wrote a book of scripts because you discovered something most planners miss, that couples don't fight about the spreadsheet. They fight about the story behind the spreadsheet. And the closer they get to retirement, the louder those unspoken stories become. And at a point in time, where gray divorce is becoming, you know, the fastest growing area of divorce in America is with senior citizens.

Yep.

Right. This becomes even more important, right? You actually, you created, you know, Let's Talk Finances conversation cards specifically to break that silence. And you, and you even talk about financial infidelity, doing things with money behind your partner's back and about, uh, about moving couples from resentment to respect. So I want, if you don't mind, talk to the people that are in relationship out there with somebody right now. Um, maybe they're in the car together, they're out for a walk together. Maybe one spouse is listening to the podcast right now. Um, what's the unlock? What's the first sentence? What's the, how does that Saturday morning kitchen table conversation actually start without it ending in a fight? Yeah.

So the reason I created the Let's Talk Finances card, I was actually at a bar, right? The shower, the bar, these were where good ideas come from.

100%.

And there was a couple next to me, 10 years of marriage, out for an anniversary trip, and they had conversation cards. And it dawned on me because I'm like, so many clients come to me saying, I don't know how to start that ques— the conversation, or I could never ask that question. And so I did the hard work for you. It's on a card. And like you said, you're on a drive, you're out for a walk. I mean, literally, I just picked this up next to me and it says, who do you talk to about money? You know, what goals are you working towards that now have financial implications? These are just open-ended questions to start dialogue. And surprising, lately I've had a lot of couples that have been married close to 20 years showing up. In my office. And it's because these habits that we've been doing are starting to catch up with us.

Wow.

And, you know, we've had times where we've made money, we've paid off the debt, we've gone into debt again, you know, lifestyle creep. All of a sudden, you know, then we have to sell the house. We'll use the key lock. We'll, you know, all of these triggers that are being used. And at the end of the day, one of them has realized, I want to stop the madness. I want to stop this pattern. And so how do you have that conversation? You just mentioned Saturday morning, you know, over coffee. In the Money Mindset Method, which is the book that I created, the first one is make the conversation comfortable. So while Saturday morning coffee might be great for you, it might be your spouse just came off of an overnight shift and that's an awful time to talk, right? Or the kids are rushing out the door for a birthday party. So making that conversation comfortable, think about the last time the two of you had a really good conversation. Was it on a drive? Was it on a Saturday morning, have a cup of coffee and replicate that? Also, I'll use the money acronym that I created. O is one question at a time. We're going to focus on summer vacation planning with our grandkids, you know, whatever it is, one question at a time. This is not to say, Especially in second and third marriages. Well, your kids can't come with us because they haven't repaid the loan from 6 years ago, right? We're going to focus on one question at a time. Then M-O-N, nurtured shared goals. Why is it important for both of us to take our kids on vacation? For me, it's, I want to create memories. I'd rather do that over things. For you, it might be valuable time with my son that I normally don't see. I like golfing with him because it's memories from my childhood with my dad. Great. Now let's go to E, evaluate practical solutions. How can we do this? This is where I tend to say, pause. Each of you separately write a list, set a timer of ways that you think you can solve this problem. So not the loudest person in the room gets the problem to solve, but both of you have an opportunity to solve this. And then the last one is Y, is say yes to compassion for yourself, for the person having the conversation, and also know when the conversation's not going well, when to pull back and leave the conversation and come back to it later. And so, when you have that framework, conversations tend to go a little smoother than just getting that conversation over with, which tends to come in with a lot of emotions, rushed, or after a long day of work where people are just tired. Mm-hmm.

That is like that framework that you gave of how to— sounds very, I mean, it's great from a therapist standpoint, but it like you've taken something that's very complex, how to have a tough money conversation and given like structure to it. Almost like, and I must be hungry today because I've talked about cake and I've talked about hamburgers, but it's almost like a recipe.

That's exactly right.

Yep. For success. And so, you know, as opposed to just, you know, picking up like, you know, and just throwing ingredients together, you're giving like a real structure to what is a hard topic, right? The conversations, you know, couples are not having but must. What are, um, maybe some topics, right? Because I know you have cards, but like, what are, what are 3 or 4 main topics that that couples should kind of get in harmony on, especially when it comes to retirement?

Special. Okay. So this is a great one. One is, um, well, as you head to retirement, do you also have aging parents that you're taking care of? So we have to think about who in our, who in our ecosystem is also moving through this next phase with us. Is that adult children? Are we paying for education? Are we paying for lifestyle of those children after they graduate high school or college or insurance? What are we doing? So, so thinking about who comes into that next phase with you, who's coming into phase 3 that you're financially responsible for. The other one is, are we happy with the roles that we have around finances? Oftentimes I call it somebody draws the short straw with money just because they're better at it. They pay the bill on time. You know, maybe, Often defaults to the male because that's what they've seen, you know, in their background. But is this working? If not, this might be a good time to shift and/or get both partners involved because through death or divorce, we talked about gray divorce, right? At some point that person next to you won't be there. Sorry to be a realist on that one.

Right.

So having those conversations that you both are aware while you're where your finances are, are really important. And the third one is seeing the vision. Of what phase 3 looks like. Doing that vision board. And I worked with a client recently in her mid-50s doing a job transition. And she was saying that she wants to retire, you know, and do 3 months of travel. And I'm like, great. What does 3 months of travel look like to you? And does the same 3 months of travel look like for your husband? And it turned out it didn't.

Hmm.

She did the vision board. And so part of the money they needed, they lived in Canada, was A real-life generator. You know, I'm in South Florida, so I don't know anything about snow and generators, but they needed a generator to, you know, keep the house running if they were gone in the winter. That was a financial investment. And his thoughts on traveling was maybe a week every few months. Hers was a 3-month vacation. And so financially, they had to get on the same page. Interesting enough, I'll share with her for one more second. Is she came to me saying she was bad with money. And as we started talking, the next statement was my house was paid off. I was like, how can you be bad with money? Your home's paid off. And as we started talking, her dad was an entrepreneur and lost their home at 7 and at 14.

All right. Money script.

So for her, having the home was important. She didn't have savings. That wasn't important to her because she didn't have savings because dad was an alcoholic and would steal the money from her if she had any leftover. So she learned to spend everything that she had. Well, now you're in your 50s. She has adult children and she was not shifting those patterns. And so we were able to identify what was going on and then find words to communicate both to her husband and her kids of what the next phase will look like and why she should start saving because she's not her father. That money will still be there.

Right. So on this very tough topic about having the conversations you must have, I think one of the ways to kind of sum it up is just to schedule it. And if you need help, there's tools that are out there. Like, we'll talk about how people can get in contact with you later, but the cards that you have are available, right? out there for people to use. This is, and we'll, and for any of our listeners that want them, you can reach out to us and we'll make sure you get copies of them. But the thing about these conversations you must have is just put it as an appointment on your calendar when it makes sense.

It's a business meeting, right? Just like a doctor's appointment, you know, do a financial wellness day if you need before tax season or before. I like to do them quarterly with the seasons changing because your spending changes with the seasons also. Um, I have one client that they do monthly topics. So the one month will be home improvements. The next month will be vacation travel, and they have it on their calendar with the theme. So you know how to stay on track. And just like everything else, we'll talk about eating, like how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Right.

How do you have financial conversations? Small amounts over time and practicing the decision-making. So that way when the bigger decisions come, like, oh, we need a new roof. Hello. That happened to me last month, right? Having those, those tools to have those conversations are already practiced.

Right. Um, the kind of the takeaway here that I want you to take from this conversation that you have is like you should schedule it. But number 2, there's a lot of our listeners who wish they could have a conversation with their spouse. Or they had a spouse to have a conversation with. So if you find yourself either suddenly single because you're widowed or that you wish you had somebody to have these conversations with, I hope it gives motivations to those who still have somebody to actually have these conversations before it's too late. And the one thing that I always tell people is my grandmother lost her husband when she was 64 years old. But, you know, for the rest of her life, there was one man that she loved. It was him. He was gone, but she talked about him like he was present, right? Because they were in harmony together when it came to everything about life. And so by having the conversations, you give the spouse that's left behind something to cling onto, words of wisdom, commonality, and still that's there. So, You know, those conversations are important now, but they're even more important when you find yourself suddenly alone. I want to hit the—

If they're good, by the way, otherwise you're taking their money scripts and their money stories into the next phase. And so be careful on that.

Yeah, we at Ideas by Mike are an overly optimistic group of people. So we think every conversation is a good conversation there. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point to make is if the, if the conversations are good.

And if not suddenly single, look, I've been divorced 15 years. My mom's a widow, is finding that right person that will keep you accountable, that will call you on your BS, that you can brainstorm ideas with. And it might not be the first person you go to. And so, you know, and, you know, I had a client that was like, my brother-in-law's in finance. He's going to help me. He didn't care. There wasn't enough zeros in the account. He had his own family to look after. So, you know, aligned, and it might take 1 or 2 conversations to find the right person. It could be a best friend, a cousin, somebody at work, a coworker, but find somebody who believes in you to, to bounce ideas off of. And it could be your financial advisor as well.

Right. So let's go into topic 3. This is a fun topic for me, and I think for most people they find, for some people this either creates a lot of excitement or it creates a lot of stress. It's one of the two here. And so from creating the budget to the yes plan, giving yourself permission to actually spend, you know, I think you hate the word budget. If I remember that.

It's like diet. It's, they're awful words.

Yeah. When we, when we did our first call together, I remember that coming out that you hated it. And so you actually replaced it. And I thought this was genius. You actually replaced it with the term Yes Plan, where you prioritize expenses that vibe with your values. Uh, you say that money is energy and that no action is an action. By choosing not to do something, you've chosen. In action. So you name retirement accounts, right? You actually put names to them, which I think is fascinating.

Well, a 401 is just a 401. It's letters and numbers.

Right. So give us some examples of like what you would name a 401.

It could be Mystic Cove overlooking the beach. It could be You know, bunny hill in the forest. It could be, you know, the nest on the mountaintop. You know, it's something that has value to you. And when I work with clients, we do a guided meditation of what that looks like when you're sipping your coffee. Take a minute now. You're sipping your coffee. What's the weather? Is it a chill in the air? Right? The color of the door. If a hand slips next to you and in your hand, whose is it? And then you hear the music playing. We got the Caribbean music going, or we have some classical music going. And all of a sudden that name shows up because you have a vision of what this looks like. And when you can see something and share it with others, You have a chance of reaching that goal a lot better than a 401.

Purpose and vision.

You got it.

It's so key. I mean, you even walked us through like a little bit of what that sensory retirement vision exercise looks like when you just calmly walked us through, like, what do you smell? You know, what do you taste? What do you hear? What's the touch? That's really good. But I want to, I want to, I got to stay on this renaming accounts for a second. Let's do it because it's genius. Why does that change behavior so much?

Because again, it's uniquely yours. I think that that's important. If you were to ask somebody at 25 or 35 to save for retirement, It's so far-fetched. It doesn't make sense.

Right.

If you talk to them about what would phase 3 look like, or where would you want your grandkids to come to? And it has a name, it's uniquely theirs. And then all of a sudden it's easier to put $25 away a week for something that's yours. And so having that ownership over that name is important. It gives it a purpose. It gives it a purpose. It's really, and then especially if you're working with somebody else, it gives both of you a purpose. I even say hang up a framed picture of it also in your home as artwork. So if you know what the area is or the vibe that you want, and when you walk by it, and this could be for anything, if you're saving for a car, if you're saving for, you know, a trip to Africa, you know, put that picture up there. So when you keep seeing it, it makes it real. And obtainable. And that's what we want, obtainable goals. Otherwise it's just a dream.

And they're just hidden reminders of what life is about that are constantly flooding you in a goal that is out in front is a goal that's achievable. A goal that's hidden in a journal is right. It's not really as achievable. So I love the renaming the 401. I just cannot tell you how much I love that.

What would yours be? What would you call your account?

You know, I don't know. Like, I would have to really think deep about it, but I mean, I'm a travel person, right? I want to touch all 7 continents. I want to touch multiple countries on every continent. I want to see the things that just make this world so beautiful. But at the same time, I want to spend time with my 3 kids and my grandson. And so like, to me, that there would probably be, I'd probably split my accounts in a couple of ways. I'd have, I'd have my never work again fund, right? Like just that. I would have my, I'd have my see the world fund and I would have to, I would have make Zach, Grace, and Paige's life better fund, right?

I love that.

And the fund for them would be, and that's not for when I die, by the way, it would be for, you know, like my son just graduated from medical school and they're, He's having his first party as an officer where he hosted post— as postgraduate. And so I just got a text like before we recorded this from my daughter-in-law who said, hey, we would like for the parents to split the cost. She didn't say like what the cost is. Her mom's doing it and just whatever her mom spends. I mean, I love it. I love it. Love it when people spend my money. Let me just tell you that. But, but, but she said, but she said that's— Right, right, right. But we just expect you to split the cost of it without knowing what the budget is, right? Or the yes plan, their yes plan But I would love to have a fund there that basically just says, whatever you want, you can have, but just know you can't have everything. Right.

So you, yes, you just, you just said something really well. First of all, 2 things. One, for the people that are afraid to spend, you like that travel fund that you just talked about, right? You gave permission. So this is my travel fund. I call it a sunshine fund in my daily life right now, but this is like the fun money. That if I want to buy a gift for a friend or go for a massage, like it's my little money that I'm allowed permission to do. And so that helps the ones that are afraid of spending is if you give it a name and a purpose, well, now I got to use it. Right. And it decreases the stress of, oh, I don't have enough, or I can't spend that. No, no, no. We have it set aside. So you're good to go and you can enjoy it a little more. The other thing you hit on is boundaries. And so when you're working with family members and your kids, I was working with a client, he was a chiropractor. He, his niece asked him for $1,000 for rent one month. 2 years later, guess who he was still giving $1,000 to for rent?

His niece.

So instead of saying, I have $20,000 to work with you on. Do you want it upfront? Do you want it, you know, do you want it in installments for the next 2 years? Like, how do we want this money to do? But setting a boundary. And also, is this a gift or is it a loan? We make assumptions like your daughter-in-law did that whatever the dollar amount is, you're gonna say yes to. And what happens is instead of respect, we get resentment. And so have that uncomfortable conversation. You're traveling with another family. Just my daughter went away with another family this past weekend and her view into the money script was like, well, the dad didn't want to move the parking because you'd have to pay an extra $10. And, you know, everybody, especially traveling, has different spending budgets. So having that uncomfortable conversation upfront, and again, practice them small, will help you in the long run with family members in particular.

Right. And I, and I, I, one thing is about my daughter-in-law. It's a relationship we have, right? She knows that she could ask me for the world and I would say yes because she's given me something that I've never had before. You know, we have these people relationships in our life and, you know, when somebody gives you something for the first time, they have unlimited access to what I have. She gave me my first grandson, so she has unlimited access to whatever she wants. And so like her asking for that is, Not being, not, not being rude in any way. It's more of just saying, you know, I'm cashing in the grandchild chip and I love that. Right. I love it. I actually, I actually do love it.

You love it because you can do it.

Yes.

Right. And so there's oftentimes where I see people, I'm working with a client who's paying his son's cable bill.

Adult child support, by the way. That's what that is.

Yep. But he hasn't talked to his son in 4 years.

Right.

And so it's his only connection to his son. And of course, wife number 4 is like, why are we wasting our money, you know, on the cable bill? And he will not let that go because it's his connection to his kid.

Nobody likes the term child support because it normally comes with a negative connotation, like a divorce. But like when you're paying something and you start resenting paying it to an adult child, it's adult child support. Just call it what it is. Right. It's an unwritten contract to call them. And that's where we have to, that's where I love, I love your take on like, like not having unwritten contracts almost, but saying I can do this or that. Having an adult conversation.

With elderly parents too, with siblings.

Yeah.

This is what I can do. This is what you can do. Can we put this together when I'm using the Money Mindset Method under that evaluate the E? How can we solve the problem for mom and dad right now?

Right.

Right? Is it I buy the groceries, but you take to doctor's appointments? Is it you send a check for the, you know, the nursing home? And it's solving for what everybody's skills are. And just because you're the oldest or you're the one that's always been making the decisions doesn't mean it's the only way to do it. So remember that this is a conversation.

The 4th topic that I want to talk about is retirement as an emotional journey, not a finish line. And we've spent a lot of time on the first 3 topics. I want to do something on our pre-show. I asked you a very interesting question. I said, do you ever want to be a TEDx speaker? And you said, if it drops in my lap, I'll do it. So guess what? I'm going to give you this as a TED platform for like 2, 3, 4 minutes. Just to talk about retirement as an emotional journey, not a finish line. Just give us Erika Wasserman's thoughts on that.

Welcome to my TED Talk. I'm glad you're here. I would like you to take a minute and take a breath right now. And exhale. Drop your shoulders. Let go your fingers. That pit in your stomach, that knot, just let it go all the way through the ground. Release it. Retirement's a big word for a lot of people. Like marriage or babies, big transitions, and oftentimes comes with really big emotions. I'm going to invite you today to shift that to some smaller things. Mike was today was talking about having a new grandbaby. The baby didn't pop out and was a 7-year-old riding a bicycle. Your retirement isn't going to be 80 years old on the golf course the next day. Maybe it will be, but generally not. It's going to happen over time. Just like growing a baby, going through the newborn stages, sleepless nights, uncomfortable conversations, your retirement phase 3, the next stage is also going to have that. So what we tell new parents is often, Be kind to yourself, get rest when you can, take advantage of opportunities, and don't listen to everybody's advice because everybody has some. Trust your gut. The same is going to be as you roll into retirement, is surround yourself with good people that you can use as a board of advisors, but also know that it's going to look and shift differently each year. The friends that you have when you first leave work, Are slowly going to go away. They're going to shift. The person you had lunch with for 40 years might be a casual twice a year lunch person. So what do you need to do is develop a new group, a new baby group, a new group of friends, a new sport, a new hobby, and start filling it up slowly over time. Don't expect that all of a sudden you have a 7-year-old riding a bicycle. Take retirement in slow increments and be proud of the ones that you get along the way. The next phase of your life is amazing. You are so lucky to be in an opportunity to try something new, to have the funds that you've set aside so that way you are secure. I repeat that again. You are secure and safe and you get to go and do the things that you love. So as I release you to the wild into this next stage of life, Do it with fun, do it with safety and security, and do it with your whole heart. I'm Erica Wasserman, your financial therapist.

Ladies and gentlemen, her, her official interview to be a TEDx speaker on the Ideas by Mike podcast. That was really good. That was really good. We're going to cut that out and we're going to send it all across the country to TED places.

Let's do it.

That was, um, That whole part about you're releasing people to go do that at the end. See, that is the emotional journey because, well, like we've talked about through the show, identity is found in the job, right? We are accounts of 401 versus how you call it, renaming it, addressing the money scripts, talk, having real conversations. This has just been an absolutely amazing journey.

show.

I'd love for you to tell people how they could find you, how they can get your book, how they can grab the conversation cards, and maybe even how they could start their own money mindset makeover.

Yeah. Excuse me. The best way of reaching me is my website, yourfinancialtherapist.com, info@yourfinancialtherapist.com, or directly to me at erika@yourfinancialtherapist.com. Happy to support you. I'm also on all the social Right? So LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok, even just trying that out under Your Financial Therapist and on Amazon. So the Let's Talk Finances cards are on Amazon. And so is the book Conversations with Your Financial Therapist: Stories and Scripts to Grow Your Mindset. And the scripts are what the conversations, a healthy conversation could look like. And so that was really important to me. It takes 7 characters through different life stages. Um, and then shows how those conversations could look like, because I'm a visual learner. Like, I need to see what this could be. And so hopefully these trips help you as well.

Uh, you are wild for a lot of reasons, but being on TikTok is one of them. But what you, what you're truly an expert in is, uh, helping people realize that phase 3 retirement is, uh, is just a part of the bigger story. And there's a lot of things that we need help with along the way, but your approach reaches, will reach so many people because it, in my opinion, is the right approach. We go beyond the spreadsheet and go to what really matters, assign purpose for the rest of our life. And, uh, you are a rockstar, Erika. Thanks for joining us.

Thanks for having me on. Great conversation.

Absolutely. This has been Mike Milligan and the Ideas by Mike podcast. As you know, my personal mission is to educate, coach, and plan. And whatever you do this week, I hope you never miss a moment. Erica, thank you. This is the conversation I wish every one of my clients could sit in on before they signed the retirement paperwork, and honestly, every 5 years after. Here's what I want to leave the audience with, because I'll be writing it down as I've been writing it down as Erika has been talking. Your retirement plan is not a number, it's a story, and the story started long before the 401 did. The spreadsheet tells you what you can afford. It does not tell you what you could say yes to. It does not tell you whether your spouse knows the real you when it comes of money. It does not name the dream out loud, and it cannot on its own buy back a moment you choose to miss because you were too scared, too quiet, or too stuck in the story you didn't know you were telling. So here's the homework, and Erika, you're my witness on this. Tonight, today, this week, write down one of your earliest money memories. Just one. The first time you remember money making you feel something. That's the start of your money Your money journey. Number 2, pick one conversation you've been avoiding having with your spouse, your partner, your kids, or your planner, and start taking notes on that and schedule that meeting. Number 3, name one thing in the next 90 days you're going to say yes to. Book it, pay for it, put it on the calendar. Because the people who retire well aren't the ones with the biggest accounts. They're the ones who know the story, had the conversation, and say yes And never ever miss a moment. This has been Mike Milligan for the Ideas by Mike podcast. To connect with me and our firm, go to www.oneoakfinancial.com. That's the number oneoakfinancial.com. You can also text in the word ideas, I-D-E-A-S, to 600-700, and we'll reach out to you to find out more about your one-of-a-kind story and why money is important to you. I am an investment advisory representative with Advisory Alpha LLC. Ideas by Mike, doing business as One Oak Financial, is an unaffiliated entity of Advisory Alpha LLC. This podcast is done for educational purposes only. Please do not take any tax, retirement income, investment, long-term care, or legacy advice without first consulting with an appropriate financial professional. To learn more about the Ideas by Mike podcast, go to ideasbymike.com to listen to past episodes. And until next time, this has been Mike.

Turn it up. It's the Ideas by Mike podcast.