How to Never Miss a Moment in Your Next Chapter with Dr. Gary David | Ideas by Mike™ Ep. 53

Welcome back to the Ideas by Mike podcast. I'm Mike Milligan, and today I'm sitting down with someone I've been looking forward to having on this side of the mic for a long time because I've been a guest on his podcast. You're going to hear more about that as we talk in our conversation. My guest today is Dr. Gary David, who is a professor of sociology and experience design at Bentley University, where he's been teaching since 1999. He holds a PhD in sociology from Wayne State University. And what makes Gary unique is that he sits at the intersection of 2 worlds that most people never connect. The science of how humans relate to each other and the art of designing experiences that actually matter. He's a design sociologist. He's a keynote speaker at garyconnects.com. He's the host of the Experience by Design podcast. He's judged the US and International Customer Experience Awards in the past, and he studies something most financial professionals never talk about, how people build connection Belonging and meeting, especially in the places where work, identity, and life collide. Here's why I wanted Gary on the show. In my world, financial planning, retirement income, and tax strategy, we spend too much of our time on numbers, the portfolio, the withdrawal rate, the annuity, the tax bracket. And those things matter. They matter a lot. But there's a 5% nobody talks about that I think is actually the whole game. It's the human part. It's the moment where your, your business card stops mattering. It's the silence on a Tuesday morning when you used to be in a meeting. It's the conversations you and your spouse keep postponing about What enough actually means. You can't put that on a spreadsheet, but it's the difference between a retirement that's funded and a retirement that's lived. So today, Gary and I are going to go somewhere most money conversations don't go. We're going to talk about identity, experience, conversation, and meaning, and what all of that has to do with the dollars in your account. 4 big ideas. Let's get into it. Welcome to the Ideas by Mike podcast. I'm so glad to have you here. I mean, after doing your podcast together, we, uh, we obviously had a great conversation there, but I'd like to start before we like dive into some questions and get to know you. Let's talk, let's talk a little bit about your podcast.

All right.

Tell me what, what, what's the purpose of your doing it? Because it's really unique.

Yeah, I think the purpose is just to talk to people who are— and to get to know people. I think you'll recognize that the one great thing about doing a podcast is that you will talk to people you might not otherwise meet in your life. And the range of people— I just this morning launched my 177th episode— the range of people that I've been able to talk to and learn about their lives and their stories and their work has been Amazing, nothing short of amazing. And whether or not— you always hope people listen to it, that's the goal. But the real primary goal is just to have that time, however long it is, to engage in a very deep conversation with somebody about work they care deeply about. And nothing could be better than that because we don't often get opportunities to do that kind of thing in our daily lives. So the podcast is a vehicle for me to engage folks who I think are doing interesting work, doing interesting things, and I can learn from. And anything that comes after that is just icing.

The interesting part about it is that you're, you're in academia and most academics, most academics, people like speak in, speak into students. But what you're doing, you're creating a platform where your students have like a, You know, don't trust me for what's going on out there with interesting people. Listen to this conversation that you can't quite have yet because you're not to the point in your career there. So like, I mean, that's what's interesting is most academic people do not have a podcast. They focus more on research. They focus more on donor solicitation and, right, you know, tenure tracks and all that stuff. So that's what I found really interesting about your podcast. We'll put that podcast that you and I did together in the comment section. of this one, but I'm really, I'm really in, I'm really, it's going to be great to have this conversation today because your expertise speaks directly to my audience. And so I want to start here. You've spent your career studying how people form identity through their work, like the roles and the relationships, the daily rituals that tell us who we are. And so for 30 or 40 years, people are identified as an engineer or a nurse. a principal, the founder of a company, and then on a Friday afternoon, they just hand in their badge and Monday morning, boom, they're gone, right? So from a sociology lens, what actually happens to a person's sense of self when the work stops? And what do the people who navigate that well do well or do differently than the ones who fall off in what we really call the identity cliff?

One of the things I'll ask my students who played sports in high school or played sports in college, especially if they're seniors and they're no longer playing because their season's over, I'll say, are you still a football player? Are you still a swimmer? Are you still whatever? And they'll pause and go, I don't know. And it's a real moment if you've built your life around this thing. And so much of our lives are built around the things we do for work, right? The first question people often get asked is, what do you do for a living? And the way we define ourselves is in relation to our jobs, then when you no longer have that thing, then that can be traumatic. It doesn't have to be. Some people look at retirement very positively, and now I'm a retiree. I've changed identities. I've changed categories. But I think it depends on the circumstances on which you went out. Is it something that you were allowed to leave on your own terms? Is it something that these terms were forced upon you? And these are going to be crucial factors, crucial variables in determining what it does to your sense of self, your sense of worth, your sense of identity. So it's, you know, there's a lot of research on this question. I don't think there's any one answer. I think as always, it depends, but it can be hugely disruptive to your own sense of self. And also I might add disruptive to your marriage because you've been gone and now you're back. And we are seeing this trend of gray divorces, right? Where people are like, oh, now we're here together. We no longer have these distractions. What does it all mean? So it's a hugely disruptive force in our lives when we, or it can be when we no longer are working and we're at the retirement phase.

You gave me goosebumps. I literally got goosebumps sitting here listening to your answer because I remember sitting, I got goosebumps for 2 reasons. I had 2 things running through my head. I remember the last time I was sitting in a locker room playing baseball. And then, and then I was never playing baseball again. And then I remember like my daughter Grace, who was a 4-year letterman playing college soccer, captain of her team at the University of Lynchburg. And her last game, she tells me the story about how they just sat in the locker room, her and her senior friends, for like 4 hours wearing the jersey, crying.

Right.

And, and since then, you know, she's now gone into the professional world. Uh, she did lose her identity for a period of time, but now she has a new identity. And, uh, and we actually— That's a good thing.

Yeah.

You, you make me think that there's like, for a retiree who's done it for 30 or 40 years, my daughter only played, I mean, she played soccer in college for 4 years, but she had played soccer since she was 5. So, so, so really for 18 years she had been doing this. And so just that last one was like the last job.

I mean, a job, a job.

What is there? Is there one thing? A job, a thing like that.

I was just gonna say it's a sense of schedule too, right? It's not just a paycheck. It structures time.

Oh, right.

I know where I'm supposed to be at what point in the day. I know when I'm supposed to get up to get to a place that I'm required to work at. It structures all of our day, all of our lives. And when you lose that sense of structure, now you're like, okay, how do I restructure myself? How do I moor myself to something constant and not just feel like I'm adrift?

Right. I'm going to ask you a question that I don't know that there's an answer to, but I'll ask it anyway. Is there one thing a pre-retiree could start doing today to build identity that isn't tied to their title?

I can, you know, the good thing about being a PhD is that when there's no answer, we can always make one up. So let me try to make one up. Right. It comes with a degree. They allow you to do that. I think one of the things is this preparation work for identity transition. Okay. Yeah, we think about visualization in sport. You know, the idea of imagining the performance of an act so that when you actually are faced with doing it, we can— it's natural. It doesn't— it's not the first time because we thought about it. Do you start to engage in visualization exercises of what that life might be like? Do you have opportunities for other kinds of engagements? I mean, if you already have things planned, we're going to travel, we're going to buy an RV, I'm going to golf, whatever it is.

Cool.

But if you're not sure, that's where you need to have a, you know, and part of employee experience for organizations is that transition specialist so that it's not just, you're gone. Good luck. Here's a watch or whatever, but it's how can we help blend this into the next phase? And the military tries to do this, right? If someone's going out of the military because their time is up, And they're deciding to leave, they have programs to help people transition, whether they're successful or not, it's another question, but at least they're thinking about it. So companies and financial advisors could be working with clinical social workers, psychologists to develop a program to help people start that transition early, visualizing it, recognizing it, and then transferring into it.

I had a guest on the Ideas by Mike podcast probably 6 or 7 episodes ago. Her title in her company was Chief Behavioral Officer. She is, I think it's something that's going to evolve in the financial planning world where there needs to be somebody, you know, she's a licensed therapist, but she's also a certified financial planner. I think it's going to be—

Awesome combination.

That it's a great concept on where we go.

Love that.

Let's, uh, so I'm here with, I'm, I'm here with, uh, I'm here with Gary David on the Ideas by Mike podcast. And so now we're gonna, if that, if you think that was a great answer, you wait to, to this one because Gary, you're literally a professor of experience design.

Yeah.

Literally. You teach people how to design experiences that bring people together, create belonging, and drive performance. Yeah. So I want to, for our audience, I want to kind of flip the script. And if there's a 62-year-old that came to you, so not for financial advice, but for experience design advice and said, Gary, help me design the next 30 years of my life. Where would you start? And what are some of the principles most people get completely wrong about their own retirement?

I would start with what Do— are they looking for in that? Because there's not one kind of experience. When I talk about experience design, I talk about 4 different kinds of experiences: mundane, mindful, meaningful, and metamorphic. And so there are moments in which each of those types are appropriate. And there are times when trying to apply one of those types of experiences might be out of place or out of step. So the first thing I want to know is what's their appetite is if they're retiring? What are the conditions on the retirement? Are there opport— if they're looking to stay engaged, like, you know, I really didn't want to retire. Well, okay. Are there opportunities to contribute? For instance, there's a great organization called SCORE, Senior Citizens of Retired Executives. It's under the auspices of the Small Business Association of the federal government. Retired executives work with people to help them with startups, to help them with business plans, to help them with other kinds of activities. Is there a way of getting them to give back? Can we connect them to community organizations, to other kinds of institutions so that they can contribute and feel that sense of fulfillment and belonging? If they are done with that life and they want to transition into another thing, okay, how can we best set up that experience for that metamorphosis so that they can become a new thing? And is there a ritual, a symbolic ritual we should go through to signify the end of one thing and the beginning of the next thing? So there's a lot of ways we can go about it to reinforce the moment and the experience based on the needs of the person for whom we're designing.

So what, how do you design for the unexpected?

I mean, I think you can't, you know, it's just, I think, and you know, everything is unexpected because it's hard to predict the future. Every day I open up my phone and I go, oh, I didn't expect that, but there it is. And so it's not so, you know, it's, I go back often to the Serenity Prayer. You know, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Things I can't control, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about. Because why? Right? Like, what am I going to do with it? I can't control it. You know, there's a saying in something I belong to, I didn't cause it, can't control it, can't cure it. And so if I can't control it, I'm gonna let that go and not try to own it. I'm gonna focus on what's in my area of control and focus on that, because if I can see what I can control and focus on that, then at least I can work on things that I can affect directly.

Hey, I'm gonna take us on a little curveball here for a second because many of our listeners haven't been on a college campus in 20, 30, 40 years. What's life like on a college campus right now?

Right now it's quiet because it's summer. But, you know, I work at a very unique place. It's a private business school. Most of my students major in business, so they come there and it's a small school, 5,500 undergraduates or so. So it's kind of unique in that way. I mean, my students, at least, they're very much future-oriented. It's interesting. I've asked them, how do you feel about your job prospects in the age of AI? And they are pretty optimistic. And I don't know if I should try to ruin that for them or just let them cook in that and be like, yeah, it's going to be fine. Because I, as a sociologist who's studied work and technology, I'm like, I don't know if it is going to be fine right away. I'm from Detroit, right? I've seen the auto industry be disrupted through automation. I've seen towns like Flint or even Detroit and Hamtramck or whatever undergo these moments where the employment opportunities completely devolved. And so I hope that they're right, but I also think that they need to up their skill game in particular areas to make them more attractive in an age of automation. So that's, you know, it's, they're pretty optimistic, but at the same time, I don't know if they fully are conscious of where things are and where things might be going yet.

Yeah, they don't have, they don't have life experience yet to kind of, to, to, to, to like trample on their optimism yet.

Yeah. And I don't want to be that guy. I can be that guy, but I really don't want to be that guy. But, you know, they don't know what they don't know.

That's right.

And so part of my, my part of my job, especially in the sociology classes I teach, but also experience design, is to give them the skills that are going to be, I think are going to be necessary to excel in this upcoming age. to make them more distinctive compared to, to add more value than the technology itself can.

That was a great answer. And that's great insight to like what's happening on college campuses right now. Like in my work at ODU, I work with a lot of 20-year-olds. So like they're coming back to get like a degree because they didn't know exactly what they wanted to do when they got their, you know, their general studies degree or whatever they got. So, and they want to work in the financial space now. So that's a great answer about what's to come. So let's, Let's go back to the conversation here. So I want to talk about some conversations that couples are not having. And I think this is going to be in your wheelhouse because most financial advisors aren't even qualified to ask a lot of these questions, but you're trained in conversation analysis and forensic linguistics. So in my practice, I see it every day. Couple walks in, they've been married for 35 years, and they finish each other's sentences about the grandkids. But they cannot talk about money, about how they want to spend it, about who goes first, about what legacy means and whether an annuity is for him or for her or for the kids or like stocks and money. I mean, it's crazy. So what you've seen in your research, why are these specific conversations so hard and what's the unlock? How does a couple sitting in the kitchen like this Saturday actually start the conversation? they've been avoiding for 10 years?

Yeah, money's a hard conversation, isn't it? You know?

Oh my gosh.

Yeah. We talk, we talk about financial literacy and the lack thereof, and people just don't talk about it because it can be anxiety-provoking, clearly, depending upon one's situation, especially in economic downturns or economic uncertainty, that those conversations become more anxiety-provoking. You know, I, I, my thought goes to a lot of different directions, but one of them is What is the nature of communication to begin with? So one of the things I would wonder for financial planners, is it the best idea to talk to both of them at the same time? Should there be some pre-work before they come in? Like individually, they do some kind of assessment on their own that you can then compare before they come in to get a sense of how in line are they or not in line are they. You know, we, you are still dealing with, I'm, you know, '56, I was born in '70, 1970, you know, finances were still at that time the domain of the man. And so, but at the same time, women underwent a time period of greater, say, liberation, opportunity, agency, autonomy. And so there's a number of cultural factors that are generational that might be at play. So I think that Based on that initial intake, maybe it's a good opportunity to set up different conversations. Is it better potentially to have the wife, if it is a wife, to talk to a female advisor than a male financial advisor? If you have that person on your staff as an initial step, you know, in order to have, is that a different quality of conversation? I don't know. I've not studied that, you know, this area, but, you know, based on your expertise, I do wonder if you have any thoughts on, you know, the segmentation of the conversations in a way to prompt more, let's say honest reactions, but less, more unfettered reactions or responses to the questions.

So the interesting thing is that you're trained in the financial advisor, kind of like the one-size-fits-all world to get everybody in the room at the same time.

Yeah.

Because it's efficiency, right? It's more of like an assembly line process. But like, you hit me when you said maybe it's better to have, you know, some kind of intake process that's a little bit different to see if they're on the same page. The interesting part of that is I would wonder, you know, because typically there's a dominant person in a financial relationship and who shares responsibilities. The interesting thing that you don't know sometimes is the dominant person may also be the introvert, not the extrovert. And so sometimes you get people in the room, what you're trying to figure out is who has all the knowledge and who's just the person who talks the most. And that intake process you mentioned would be tremendously resourceful because you have some insight not only to You know, are they, are they on the same page? But you're also like, you, you can almost tell who has more, who has more to gain and lose because they've been so invested in the process. But that's a, I mean, that's an interesting, I, I, I don't think, I definitely know this. I know men and women don't hear the same thing. I, I know that. I mean, the research is clear.

Right.

On that, you know, you, you say something and a man hears blue and a woman hears pink. Right. They just don't hear the same thing. But that's a, that's an interesting concept, I guess, is the, uh, you know, I, I guess the key is not to say something that shuts down a conversation before it even starts, because then you're just delaying it.

Yeah. I could pull from a lot of different literatures. I mean, Deborah Tannen has done some great work on gender styles and interaction and conversation. There's some really great work that's other, in other kinds of contexts, such as doctor-patient encounters. Who's speaking for whom? Who's listening? What kind of topics are offered? How, you know, where the, where is the response directed? So it's up to the, the person who's doing, who's managing the interaction, the financial planner, to have that kind of social intelligence, conversational awareness to look for those cues. And I would also add, never confuse efficiency with quality. Just because something's more efficient doesn't mean it's higher quality. I get efficiency, but we shouldn't sacrifice quality at the altar of efficiency.

Wow. So that, I mean, that's something like what you've just said here in that topic is going to make me even rethink how we talk to our married couples or any couple in that matter about money. So, I mean, thanks. That's good. And so for listeners who are listening to that, It is a, it's a conversation. Money is a conversation that needs to be had. And it's one that, you know, also probably needs to set boundaries if it causes drama. But that's why working with a financial planner who understands this type of stuff is so important. I want to go to like kind of my last topic. I have a personal motto that's never miss a moment. I'm one of these guys that I, what gives me life is just those moments you can never ever get again. And so you study how humans construct meaning and how moments become memories. What does the sociology of a meaningful moment actually look like? And what makes one Tuesday unforgettable, yet another one disappear from your thoughts?

You know, the simple answer is, you know, this idea of storyability and going back to the mundane, mindful, meaningful, metamorphic. Mundane things, you know, are not memorable because they're routine. You wouldn't, if someone says, you know, how was today? You wouldn't launch into a detailed explanation of everything that happened. You would pick things that you think are storyable. Those storyable moments are typically ones that depart from the everyday and you think are worthy of retelling. Okay. And so storyability becomes a factor in it, but that's if I was relating what happened to me, but on a collective level. A moment that we share together in the same way becomes incredibly meaningful. I was just, you know, we were talking before we started recording about the band The Tragically Hip. And if anybody's from Canada, you know who I'm talking about. If you're not from Canada, they're one of the most famous Canadian bands ever. And when the lead singer was diagnosed with a inoperable brain tumor, but they were able to go on a final tour and their final concert in Kingston, Ontario, where they're from, was broadcast live on the CBC. They said 11 million people watched. There were watch parties around, across the country and around the world of Canadians, where Canadians shared this thing at that moment. And anybody who was asked about it was like, You will always remember where you were at that time because we were all engaged in the same thing together with the same meaning. And so that's something that makes a memory. Moments like that where we're all coming together with a shared understanding of the significance and the importance of that moment cements it in our mind and our lives and forms this kind of fiber that binds us together in it so that no matter what we think about politics or sports teams or whatever, we can share in that moment no matter what our personal ideologies are.

Right. And there's a, so my, in my, like, that's a, that's exactly what happens in like the moments I have. I just, I don't want to miss anything, right? Because I want to accumulate so many of those that at the end of my life, Yes, we are going to have money left to pass down to my kids. There's no doubt, but I would rather pass more of those moments down to them, those shared experiences than the others. And I think that's what a real legacy is, but a lot of people will defer moments. They'll get caught in that, or, you know, that mundane. Is there a shelf life on deferred moments?

I mean, there's a shelf life on it, on everything. You know, so I think in terms of the shelf life on any moment, it's the extent to which its power still resonates in our present life, right? And that's, that can be very personal, but it can also be very shared and very collective. Today, just, you know, June 5th is the anniversary of the Battle of Midway. Okay. Okay. What's that? It was like the point at which World War II shifted in the Pacific. It's one of the pivotal battles in World War II in the Pacific. Well, unless you're a World War II nerd like me, you aren't going to know it. But if you go on World War II Twitter right now, you'd think it was Christmas. It's because it's even after all this time, the story of it, the heroism of it, the legacy of it still resonates for those of us who have learned about it. And you didn't have to be there. It still has that meaning as this narrative, this myth that binds and unites. And so as you do, you know, the passing down, if you want to have, do you foster a retirement story to pass down to your children? What's that mean? I don't know. Telling the story of your journey and the decision. It could be a page long, 2 pages long, something that you can not just, here's your, here's my money, but here's the story of my money. Here's the story of my life leading to this moment so that it resonates beyond that time and into time that goes past that.

Wow. That's good, Gary. I could keep this thing going all day because just the level of depth you're providing to the questions that I think our listeners have is just absolutely amazing, right? This is the part that goes beyond the spreadsheet or the mutual fund or the ETF that people struggle with. in life when it comes to that great crossover from working to retirement is this whole idea of having real conversations like this. Because just to highlight a couple things you said, when you do retire, marriage is new. It's brand new. And the newness of it could be something that will drive you apart, a gray divorce, or bring you closer together. There's these whole ideas of Creating storyable moments, right? With collective people. That's absolutely freaking amazing. And then just, and then thanks for the, just, you know, thanks for sharing what's going on on college campuses. I would ask our listeners that if there was anything that you took from this podcast, I would love for you to put it in the comment section wherever you're listening to this. If it's on YouTube, go there. If it's on—

Spotify.

one of the other streaming networks, just make sure the comments, put what was meaningful to you about this conversation there because it will encourage Gary, but his students will also see it. And that's the group that he has invested in the most.

Absolutely.

And so Gary, if you, if this is atypical, right? Because as an academic person, like if somebody wanted to connect with you or read more, or even maybe it's you want to promote your school a little bit. What would you tell people about Gary and how you can be of a resource to them even further?

I'm very active on LinkedIn. So if you look for Gary David PhD on LinkedIn, I'm one of the— I'm an academic who's active on LinkedIn. Go figure. Yeah. So there's that. You can always go to Experience by Design Podcast. feedback@experiencexdesign.com is another spot. to ding me. My school, Bentley University, where I've been at, this will be 27 years, starting my 27th year at the school. My daughter is gonna be graduating from it next year, which is kind of wild. And so you, you know, you can look me up there, gdavid@bentley.edu. One of the great things about my school and the reason why I've been able to excel at it, I think, is that we do a really great job of integrating arts and sciences and business. And that's what we've been talking about, right? Most of my students, it was founded, the school was founded as a Bentley School for Accounting and Finance. Most of my students are accounting, are finance and accounting majors. And so, you know, we, but we try to impress upon them the importance of the behavioral, of the social, of the arts and sciences, and see how, teach them how they can apply it to their jobs and to their lives. So those are just some of the ways that folks can get in touch with you if they're interested in extending this conversation further and, or asking me any questions. that I've talked about.

I think we'll probably be extending this conversation to another podcast in the future too, because this is—

love to.

I do believe that this is going to be one of those that our listeners, the ones that have subscribed and are listening, are going to come back to and say, give me more. And so what I'll probably do is if there's comments in the thing that come up with real questions, we'll probably just come back and record again and say, this is a question based off our last podcast. It would be amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Gary. I appreciate your time today.

Well, thank you. It's great talking again.

Gary, thank you. Uh, that conversation is one I wish every one of my clients could sit in on before they sign their retirement paperwork. And here's what I want to leave the audience with because I've been writing it down as Gary's been talking. Your retirement plan is not a spreadsheet. It's a sociology project. The number in your 401 tells you what you can afford. It does not tell you what will be on the other side of that goodbye party. It does not design your choose day. It does not start the conversation with your spouse, and it cannot, it absolutely cannot buy back a moment you choose In the conversation, I said leave some comments, right? What I also want you to do is tonight, not next week, tonight, I want you to pick one conversation you've been avoiding and I want you to start it. I want you to pick a moment on the calendar in the next 30 days and protect it like it's payroll. Pick one piece of your identity that isn't your job title and feed it, whether that's going to the gym, focusing on your health, whether it's a relationship with a spouse or a child. But pick it because the people who retire well aren't the ones with the biggest accounts. They're the ones who designed the experience, had the conversation, and never ever miss a moment. This has been Mike Milligan for the Ideas by Mike podcast. To connect with me and our firm, go to www.oneoakfinancial.com. The number oneoakfinancial.com. You can also text in the word ideas, I-D-E-A-S, to 600-700, and we'll reach out to you to find out more about your one-of-a-kind story and why money is important to you. I am an investment advisory representative with Advisory Alpha LLC. Ideas by Mike, doing business as One Oak Financial, is an unaffiliated entity. Of one of Advisory ALF LLC. This, uh, this podcast is done for educational purposes only. Please do not take any tax, retirement income, investment, long-term care, or legacy advice without first consulting with an appropriate financial professional. To learn more about the Ideas by Mike podcast, go to ideasbymike.com to listen to past episodes. And until next time, this has been Mike.