Consulting, Client Relationships & Career Growth with Mike Rizzo

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

Tune in to each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you and your marketing operations career. Hello, I'm Courtney Makara, and this is the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast. SMTC has joined forces with the marketingops.com community, but our mission is still the same, to educate and support anyone involved in the martech world as a consultant.

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In this podcast series, Grant Gregorian and I interviewed guests on their journeys as consultants. We discussed all that it means to be a great martech consultant from setting up their business or joining an agency and how to find new clients and keep their existing clients happy. I hope you enjoy the interview. And today joining us is Mike Rizzo with WeWork in New York City. Hi, Mike.

Hey, Courtney. How are you?

I'm doing good. Thanks for joining.

Thanks for having me. This is fun.

Yeah, so we're gonna pester you with questions about kind of your work history and your experience doing marketing operations work, both as a full-time employee and you did some agency experience as well, correct?

Mm-hmm, I have.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about that first transition, about going from the traditional American dream of the W-2 employee to leaving that comfort and what made you decide to go a little bit of a different route?

Sure. So one of the first things that always kind of excited me about an agency was the concept of working with different types of people, projects, companies, industries, you know, and working with different professionals with, you know, different backgrounds from coding technical experience to, you know, developing and all different types of skills. So just really getting that experience with different, you know, types of people and projects, I always just found really, really exciting.

That's very cool. How did, uh, how comfortable were you making that leap? You're like, okay, this sounds exciting, I get to work with all these different people. But it was— was it just like, oh, there's a job opening and I'm gonna apply, no big deal? Or were you a little bit nervous to change gears and really be that outside, you know, consulting relationship? Or did it come natural to you?

So yeah, I was— to be honest, I was a little hesitant at first because I never really considered myself a consultant. But once I got in there with my team at Digital Pie based off of, you know, how much I've learned from them in terms of even just from knowledge to even like personal confidence. I kind of started to sink in maybe like a year into the role that, wow, okay, I actually know, you know, some things I've seen, you know, different projects that, you know, folks might not have had. So a little hesitant at first, but with the support of an agency behind me, it became much more comfortable in the end.

I've heard that before where people— can we explore that feeling of uncomfortable being a consultant? What made you think that you wouldn't be— like, you know so much, you've done so much in the MOPS role in your other companies. Why do you think you kind of hesitated? What did you think it was like You know, like what was the disconnect between what you thought consulting was like and the fact that when once you got in there you found out, oh wait, like I could totally do this. Where do you think that came from?

Sure, so for me, I had 2 previous roles at startups in New York City, and I've always thought of consultants as these like, you know, seasoned veterans. They have, you know, been all over different companies and have this wealth of knowledge, but once I started my role, you kind of realize that other companies have very similar issues, you know, database-wise, you know, all different reasons. And it kind of just, I just realized that, okay, maybe this isn't as, you know, as scary as I thought it was going to be. You know, again, it came with the support of other team members that if it was maybe a situation where I wasn't comfortable in, whether it's like a high-level executive, kind of strategic meeting at first to bring in other team members for that support. So I would say it was just kind of the initial fear of not knowing everything and advising people on those decisions. But then once you got in there, you know, you realize that, you know, your team has your support, they wouldn't put you in any situation that's uncomfortable, and then you learn from it. So once you kind of—

Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's, sometimes people have this misconception of like, that if you're a consultant, like you have to know all the answers to things. And maybe it just reflects on me as a consultant badly that I don't know all the answers. Maybe other consultants do.

I don't know all the answers.

But I've never really met a consultant who knows all the answers. And I even remember one time I had a client who thought that I should know all the answers. And 'cause they thought like, hey, we brought in a consultant, Like, and I remember they would ask me like very specific, like it was Salesforce questions, you know, like, I don't know what the answer is. And I would like, I like, I, and I would tell them, I don't know. And they're like, then why did we, why are you here? I thought you were supposed to know. And then I would like, I'm like, no, I don't. I need to look it up. And then they would, they would tease me from that point on. They're like, Grant, we can hear you Googling from here.

Hey, you're being resourceful.

Hey. And so I was like, yeah, like, I don't know all the answers, but I guess as a consultant, like my My job was to figure out what the answer is for you and like use the experience of all the other people I worked with to kind of craft what the right thing to do is with all the research, including Google, including other colleagues at other, you know, my, at my, at the agency or, or other friends or maybe even other clients just so I can like find the answer for you. So I've definitely seen that before. And I'm so glad that you kind of got over it. You got to, you got to Digital Pie and you're like, wait a minute, these guys aren't that, you know. Better than me. Like, this is totally fine.

Yeah. I mean, it was, it was definitely an interesting experience. And even, you know, towards the latter end of my time there, you know, it was just, it was just great to go through the experiences that I have and to meet the people that I did. And it ended up just being a really, really great experience and basically a life and career-changing experience for me. To be honest. So yeah, it was great.

Well, I'm really curious about what did you learn as a consultant and in that life? I think you were there for about 3 years. Did it make you a better employee down the road? 'Cause then you did leave the agency world and you went back in-house to your current role at WeWork. And do you feel now you approach being an internal employee a little bit differently 'cause of that lens that you had?

And I don't know if it's— if I feel like it's an internal employee, I would say just more as like a professional based off of what I've learned and experienced from there. So whether it's a matter of, you know, project management, tackling an issue, communicating, you know, I've never really, you know, had the, you know, the amount of stakeholders I would have at Digital Pie.

Mm-hmm.

So learning all the different skill sets as a consultant. And I would say even from leaving or going back to in-house, project management has been kind of a really big and valuable skill set. So anything beyond like the technical stuff, even, you know, we focused a lot on emotional intelligence, you know, and it was a very, you know, I had a very personal relationship with my team as well. And I was able to take that with me in terms of people management and mentorship to other, you know, my colleagues, team members. So taking all that away and then being able to go back in, you know, in-house, I mean, it was, it was, it was just so valuable. Like, I don't know if I can stress that enough.

Yeah, that's awesome. I actually love that you're talking about the emotional intelligence because I think a lot of times with consulting, I don't know, Grant and myself, we're independent out here. We don't have a lot of quote-unquote coworkers, but you can still get that kind of career growth and leadership experience and consult by going to an agency, which I think is great. Some people, I think, stay internal and they think, well, if I'm a consultant, I'm an island and all by myself. I still want— I want to manage a team. I want to get people management experience. And you can actually definitely get that and be on the dark side, as they call it.

Yep, I've been there. The one thing that— I wouldn't say it was tough, but, you know, when you work with a client for, 6, 9 months, you implement, you know, we were primarily a Marketo shop and you essentially build this foundation. It becomes like your baby and you want to see the baby grow and you want to stay with it. So as a Marketo user, it, it, you know, you want to like build these things and you want to see them through and through and you want to see it perform. So that was the one thing for me that, uh, Kind of, not that I didn't like it, but it's just, you know, I missed kind of owning a system. You know, it was great to build, you know, something from the ground up, but it never really felt like yours, you know? And that was part of the reason what kind of drove me to go back in-house or on the dark side.

Yeah, 'cause you got to stay with it and you got to see it through.

That too. And I've always, I mean, I've had great relationships with all my clients. I still keep in touch with many of them, but even at least for me, like you, your opinion is really valid. You do great work, but I always kind of felt like a second-class citizen, even with some of my closest clients. And, you know, I get it. You know, you want your in-house team to own certain processes or own certain systems, but— You know, it was kind of like that, not having that sense of belonging, I think, at an internal company is something that I did start to miss a little bit.

Well, can you talk about that actually? 'Cause one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is because you kind of have, not only did you work in an agency, but what a lot of folks might not realize is that even while you're working at an agency, you might be assigned to work at a single client, and you might be working there for years.

Mm-hmm.

I know this is true for like larger tech agencies, you know, like the Accentures and Deloites of the world, where you're essentially, you know, like a staff member of that company or that organization. You just happen to receive your paycheck from the consulting agency rather than directly from that company, but you go to work there, You may even, you know, it's like a full-time job, but you are not really part of the team, but you are because you're like working with them. Do you know what I mean? And so you, you had, well, you were at Digital Pie, you had both. You had both kind of like what people would think of was where you have a mix of clients and you're jumping back and forth between projects, but you also did a long stint at a single company. Can you talk more about that?

Yeah. Yeah. So when I joined Digital Pie for about, about a year, I had maybe 5 or 6 clients, you know, mostly startups, a couple of large enterprise clients, but then I ended up joining the Marketo account full-time. Uh, and I was there for a year and a half. For a long time, the joke with my team was I'd been at Marketo longer than Digital Pie. Uh, and because of the full-time commitments, I was under Slack, you know, internal systems. I really didn't interact with my Digital Pie team that much. The joke with my internal team was we're on Purple Island and we gotta do what we gotta do. We're just on Purple Island.

Yeah, so just to clarify, like when you say Marketo, 'cause you, this is like very meta here, right? 'Cause you're a Marketo consultant working on Marketo like the platform, at Marketo itself. This is like triple inception here.

Yeah, it does get a little trippy sometimes, but yeah, I worked at Marketo. I got to manage Marketo's Marketo, part of the team to implement Marketo's new Marketo.

And this was after I left that team, 'cause I was on the internal Marketo MOPS team in like 2013 to '15. So I'm sorry that you inherited the mess that my coworkers and I left behind.

Courtney, Courtney, they had to bring in outside help after that. Yeah, they did.

Oh man. It wasn't that bad.

Okay, so talk about that. So you said, I mean, Purple Island, what was it? So did you feel like, hey, I kind of work at Marketo at this point? How long was that project? And tell us, you know, how did it go and how did it eventually come to an end?

Yeah. So I was there for a little, a little longer than a year and a half. And yeah, I mean, I had great relationships with so many people at Marketo and I still do today. And, you know, just being a Marketo user and a super fan, I mean, it was, It was almost like surreal that I got a chance to, you know, work at Marketo and go into the office and, you know, get a chance to meet Sarah Kennedy and the rest of the team. And, you know, it, it did, I really enjoyed it. It felt great. Uh, you know, uh, you know, worked with a number of different teams and, you know, working on, you know, just different types of projects for Marketo and even working with a lot of cold vendors, people. would think that I actually worked there. I'm like, no, I'm actually with Digital Pie. 'Cause, you know, I, 'cause I had a, I had a Marketo email address, you know, it was, it was very much like a full-time role with just a little, you know, a little C at the end of it on my email. So, but because of the relationship that I had there, you know, with everybody, people would wait, like, do you, do you work here or not? Like, I'm not quite sure. Like, I think you do. I'm like, no, I actually do not.

It's like, well, define work. I do work here, but I just, I'm not employed by you.

Yeah, you guys just don't give me a paycheck. It's okay.

You know, one thing that strikes me about the way that you talk about work is you stress relationships. And I know that some of the people I talk to about consulting who ask me for advice, there is another misconception about consultants. One we covered, which is that they must know everything, and 2 is that there's a little bit of a kind of a mercenary feel sometimes that people have, like, well, we're gonna hire this person to do this job, and then when they're done, they're gone. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And it's very, it's very transactional. It's like, oh, I'm here to perform this task list that's in the scope of work, and then when I'm complete, I collect my money and I run away. And I found the reality to be very much not like that. I find it very— that I've made really great friends with my clients, and I found that the best relationships, working relationships, are kind of very often are rooted in a great personal relationship as well. Can you talk about your experience with that while at Digital Bohai? And then Also in reverse, as you know, as you work with other consultants when you were in-house.

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that I would say initially attracted me to, you know, being a consultant was I like people. I like to help people. I like talking with people. And, you know, even in those simple types of transactional projects like you mentioned, you know, you're still You still interact with, you know, the clients. I think it is a, you know, a pretty big part of being a consultant. And then I ended up joining, you know, multiple Slack channels with my clients just to maintain that communication. And, you know, I think it's just, it's relationship building. I think it's such an important part of, you know, I would say any, you know, professional relationship, but especially with marketing operations because of how much, different teams depend on you or the impact it could have. So in terms of my time at Digital Pie, I mean, it was just, it was just very, very personable experience with my clients. You know, it was great. And then when you go back in-house, you know, even, you know, from your client vendors, but you have your stakeholders. So they're essentially going to be your new clients. At least that's how I look at it. And, you know, maintaining those relationships and Just developing a friendship. I mean, I just, I've just always enjoyed that, and I think it can really, really benefit the workplace.

Yeah, I definitely agree that the relationships have been surprisingly deep and genuine and lovely with some of the clients that I've met, and it starts to become like mutually beneficial. And I've learned things from my clients on project management and, you know, change management and things like that. It's been really It's been great. So, Mike, when you were kind of getting itchy feet and thinking, oh, there might be something else for me out there, were you looking specifically for an in-house role? Did you ever consider going independent and consulting on your own, or was it— you were like, okay, it's either agency life for me, I like the having, you know, quote-unquote coworkers or a team supporting you, or going to look at the WeWork job? I'm curious how WeWork came into your life?

Sure. So I was asked from a few people, uh, while at Marketo to kind of start up our own little 2 or 3 men shops. And see, for me, I never— I just didn't find that appealing because of the support and the knowledge that I had from my team at Digital Pie. So I think, you know, I thought about that route, but maybe when I'm much older, you know, I want to You know what, let me be, you know, get some solid maybe 15, 20 years experience under my belt and then maybe I'll go that route. You know, when I have a family later on, but for me right now in my career, just again, the support that an agency has always, I just, it felt really appealing to me. Why I wanted to leave. So I was always me. I just, I like big companies. I like, you know, big projects, big challenges. I always wanted to break into a larger company.

Mm-hmm.

And I also wanted to get out of Marketo. You know, it's, it kind of pains me to think about that, but, you know, marketing operations is very different at a large company and I wanted that experience. And with WeWork, an old boss of mine ended up taking the head of marketing ops role and got a call one day and I was like, hell yeah, let's, let's, let's do this. And been there for— my 1 year was actually this week.

Oh, happy 1-year anniversary.

Congrats. Thank you. Thank you.

So what platforms are you working on now? I mean, you're really kind of expanding the breadth of your skill set now that you're at this enterprise company, which I think you guys have, you know, 8,000 employees or something like that. That is huge. That's definitely a big leap to probably managing a whole bunch of new technology.

Yeah, that is certainly true. So the main systems I work in right now, honestly, are really just Salesforce. Uh, we use Snowflake for our data warehouse and, but really like deep technical knowledge, like SQL, you know, understanding data warehouses and multiple APIs and how data gets processed at a company the size that we work. It's completely different from, uh, you know, an enterprise startup. I'm sorry, a regular startup. And, uh, yeah, I mean, it was just that type of skill though is exactly like why I wanted to join this. Um, so a lot of, actually a lot of Googling on how to— that's basically how I learned SQL. Google and YouTube.

Nice.

Yeah.

You know, um, so like developing those skill sets and, you know, managing— I've always liked global roles. when I was at Marketo, you know, when we, it was really my first time being in a global function and we work now, I mean, my stakeholders have probably doubled, uh, but, you know, working with a team in Russia, something that I never experienced before, the legal laws you have to deal with is I never thought about something like that or, you know, getting that type of experience in a kind of global marketing ops function is what I wanted to just keep building on my skill sets.

That's amazing. Um, Mike, you have so many great stories and, uh, I think you've shared a ton of great advice, and I wanted to thank you for talking with us today.

Great. Thanks for having me. This was, this was exciting.

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