Follow Your Curiosity

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

Tune in to each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you and your marketing operations career. Hello, I'm Courtney Makara, and this is the Society of Marketing Technology Consulting Podcast. SMTC has joined forces with the marketingops.com community, but our mission is still the same, to educate and support anyone involved in the martech world as a consultant.

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In this podcast series, Grant Gregorian and I interviewed guests on their journeys as consultants. We discussed all that it means to be a great martech consultant from setting up their business or joining an agency and how to find new clients and keep their existing clients happy. I hope you enjoy the interview. Our guest is Brian DeAndre, who is an independent consultant from San Diego, California. Brian, welcome and thanks for joining us.

Hi, Courtney. Hi, Grant. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Hey, so you are a new face for Grant and I. We have not met before, and I am so excited to get to know you and hear about your journey. Grant put a little call out on LinkedIn to look for people who had worked in agencies and been independent, and you responded to the call.

Yes, I did. It was really interesting to see a message like that. I had to jump all over it because, yeah, it's been a fun ride being an independent consultant. As you said, somebody that's come from a background at an agency as well. And so excited to talk more about that today.

So Brian, can you just— I want to know what sort of consulting you do today. Just give us a little pitch and then I want to know how you got there. Tell us your story.

Sure, sure. So yeah, today service-wise, I position myself as kind of a martech, marketing technology operations specialist. So I tend to work within platforms like Salesforce, Marketo, Pardot, HubSpot, those are the like, and work with a variety of companies to really help, help them optimize the usage of those platforms as well as create better systems of alignment between marketing, sales, customer success teams and, and making sure their data and lead flow is integrated properly. And just doing all the things that really help them focus on more of the business-critical objectives when it comes to sales and marketing.

Are there like specific tools that you focus on that you like to work with, or?

Well, yeah, kind of like I mentioned, so Pardot, HubSpot, Salesforce are usually the ones that my clients will have. And yeah, a lot of times, Grant, it, you know, I'll get engagements with an organization because They either adopted one of these systems and they realized they just don't have the in-house bandwidth or expertise to, you know, give them the full attention that they need to make them run properly. Or you'll have clients that, you know, may be using one system and they need to migrate everything over to a new system. And then you have a lot of organizations that are constantly running campaigns and different sales and marketing efforts through them. And they really need a second set of eyes and a second set of hands that can be on top of the campaign and really take ownership of the management of it.

Right. And then how did you get started?

Yeah, so I, like I said, been doing this now for going on 5 years. It's interesting as I reflect back upon it because I never really, you know, thought I had a desire to be an independent consultant or anything like that. But I remember back to my days when I worked with a B2B marketing agency and we utilized a handful of contractors and freelancers, and I kind of always just found it interesting, you know, that people can make a living that way, right? And so just was more so curious about it in the beginning, like, oh, that's really fascinating and that's kind of interesting.

Yeah.

I wonder what that entails. How those people got to that point and what that means. And so, you know, I had those thoughts but kind of always put it in the back of my head, never really took it seriously in terms of a career path. And it wasn't until my wife and I relocated across the country, we moved from the Midwest out here to the West Coast, San Diego, and I got a full-time position with an organization pretty quickly. And, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, how I look at it now, it just wasn't a great fit And it was pretty apparent right away that it wasn't a great fit. And I think a lot of people can relate to that, right? When you're— you spend a lot of time and effort and energy to seek out a position, and for whatever reason it might fall short, whether it's just a misalignment between you and the organization or the type of work you were doing or anything like that. There's— I'm sure there's a lot of folks that have been in that type of situation. And so that's where I was. And just the idea of having to restart that process, restart that search, and go through it again in a short period of time was, was really discouraging and really defeating at the time for me. And I kind of had this voice in the back of my head that said, you know, what about this, this, this freelancing, this, this independent consultant contracting world? You know, we have been thinking about it before. And this might give you the perfect opportunity to do it. So long story short, I quit my, my job one day and You know, the next day I kind of— I just went full throttle into contracting. And I know for a lot of people that, you know, may seem very overwhelming. And I know fellow freelancers and contractors that don't start out that way, right? They kind of get a side hustle going or do things part-time. And certainly there's a lot of folks that have been successful in that manner too. But for me, the circumstances really kind of mandated that I took a real giant leap of faith and I'm thankful that it's worked out.

That is an amazing leap of faith, and it sounds like it was a big decision made pretty quickly. I mean, did you go and get an LLC and get an accountant and all this stuff, or did you just start looking for clients and looking for work?

Yeah, I took the route of really just looking for clients and looking for work right away. As I mentioned, we had just gone through a big relocation across the country, so the idea of spending more money as I wasn't bringing any in was not very appealing to me, not very appealing to my wife as well. So I really just took a very organic approach and, you know, really a grinding type approach to get some of those initial projects.

Makes sense.

So I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn and reached out to people I worked with and had conversations with in the past, even with those folks, you know, I hadn't necessarily had any meaningful relationship with. It was more like, you gotta, you know, there's no substitute for obviously the grind and the hard work.

Yeah.

I spent a lot of time reaching out to my network. And then the other thing I did was really explore some of the freelancing and independent contractor networks and platforms that are out there. So the Gurus, the Fiverrs, the Upworks of the world, and, you know, I had some success there, some more than others depending on the platform. And so early on it was very much a combination of how can I leverage my existing relationships and then also how can I maybe branch out and start to build up sort of a portfolio of sorts with others that I may have not had a relationship with in the past.

Well, I commend you for the hustle. That's very impressive and probably, like you said, a little nerve-wracking. When you are that new and getting started, how do you Figure out the right rate to charge when you're like, I'll take anything, but at the same time, you don't wanna sell yourself short and you wanna make sure that you're giving value to the team, but also making an adequate amount to support yourself?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a couple things. I mean, first of all, I had a little bit of a benefit in terms of, again, my agency experience because we did utilize various contractors and freelancers and I kinda had a little glimpse into, at least at a starting point, what they would charge, but I also spent a good amount time on my own digging into, you know, just searching and reading and listening and trying to figure out, okay, how do you even go about establishing what that price point is? And so I think it's very different depending on the type of work that you do, but I think at a starting point you have to try to understand, okay, if this was a full-time role, right, what, what, what would that be in terms of an annual salary? And start to do the math and break it down and look at How can I get my foot in the door and not have pricing be a sticking point?

Mm-hmm.

But at the same time, to your point, Courtney, of not selling myself short and making sure I'm not undervaluing my services. So there's no, I don't think, any magic bullet or formula. It's, again, kinda digging into some of the resources that are out there and understanding where you could potentially start. And then for me, as I started to get work, It was, you know, very much a fluid situation of raising that rate, but realizing maybe that, that, that was too high of a rate, lowering that rate back down, looking at, you know, the types of projects and how I'm scoping those and how I'm pricing those out. So it's, it's a continued learning experience. And even, you know, again, I'm going on 5 years that—

Yeah.

It's still a learning experience and it's still You know, you know, tinkering around with how you do that and how you position yourselves. And, you know, I think that's the other thing. It's, it's not just the price. It's understanding how you can talk about your services, right, and how you can, how you can build value into the entire process. Again, I feel fortunate that I came from an agency background because that was very much a lot of what we did for ourselves and a lot for our clients as well. It's, it's how do you position it? How do you frame up the opportunity and how do you really focus on the challenges that you're helping your clients solve?

For a lot of technical consultants, like in marketing operations or marketing technology space, that could be pretty new because like we support marketing, but we don't actually often do marketing ourselves. I mean, I guess when you're looking for a job, you kind of have to do that to some extent. That's what the resume is. Right. But when you, when you started reaching out, I can imagine that being kind of a harrowing, you know, vulnerable space where you're reaching out to people you kind of know, like your professional acquaintances, people you worked with in the past. What do you say to them? How do you, how do you ask, you know, do you ask for projects? Do you kind of check in and say, like, hey, how's it going? I just happened to be freelance consulting. Like, what is the right What worked for you?

Yeah, right. It's a bit awkward when you just think about it in that terms, right? Like, hey, give me some work, right? Type of a thing.

Yeah, yeah.

How do you do that? Yeah, it's— I tried to be as human as possible with it, and I think that's with anything, that's what you have to do. But I would reach out to folks and either, depending on who that was, just send them a quick note to give them an update on what I'm doing. And, you know, I would appreciate it if you look out for, you know, if you have any opportunities or anything related that you hear of, you know, keep me in mind. I'd love to be considered type of an approach and a tone of, you know, gratitude and just being there as somebody that could potentially help you. And then there was others where, you know, I would want to invest more time and have a conversation. And so, you know, you'd spend time on the phone just just, you know, genuinely wanting to hear updates about their career and vice versa and kind of going down the road of what you do. And again, I think—

Yeah.

I think for the, you know, those types of relationships, and even if you don't have a big network, so for example, for those that may be, you know, newer into the space and maybe not as far along in their career, you know, coming even from full-time employment. It's still, it's still, you know, doable in terms of, you know, reaching out to those that are, that are in your space that, again, either you have a connection with currently or, or that you don't.

Mm-hmm.

And I think there's lots of people out there in today's day and age that are willing to, you know, not necessarily— you could say be a mentor or at least provide some, some words of wisdom in a way. But, you know, tools like LinkedIn, tools, you know, others that are out there, they provide a great vehicle for having those types of conversations. And again, I think as long as you can be human about it and put your foot forward of you just want to make a connection rather than, hey, I'm doing this because, you know, I need the work, that tends to be the ones that are received the best.

Yeah, no, I've seen, I think, Your advice around being kind of genuine goes a long way. The other one that I think is really helpful is to kind of diffuse the ask by making it more indirect, because I think a lot of people really do want to be helpful on LinkedIn. Like, that's part of why you joined is to kind of be helpful to others. And I think when people ask for help, it's also like— I love when people ask for help. in a genuine way. And if somebody asked me, do you have work? I think that's really in a way like limiting because you're saying, hey, do the 20 people I know have work?

Yeah.

I think a better question is to say, do you know anyone who might have work? And, or do you, do you know anyone who might know someone who might have work? Like in that way, you know, like deflecting it from them to someone that they might know. Because not only does that expand your reach, because now it's not just the 20 people you know, but it's the 20 times 20 people they know who are potentially now, um, who might have work.

Well, I agree. And I would add to that, it's an important step for freelancers and consultants that are established as well, right? So when you're finishing up a project or when, you know, just the circumstances of the work that you have with a client are coming to an end, It's important, a couple things. I take a really diligent approach to ask for a recommendation on every client that I work with. And I use that as kind of a way to kind of accentuate my portfolio, if you will. So if you think about an operations person, right, it's a little bit less tangible than like a writer or a creative marketer that—

Mm-hmm.

Can really have these tangible pieces of work that they can show off.

Like a portfolio or something.

Yes, exactly.

There's no portfolio at the end of the day for a HubSpot consultant.

Yeah, exactly. Or if there is, there's, you know, you got to be really creative about it and you got to do certain things. So to the point of asking people for something, you know, I always make it a point to get a testimonial or recommendation. And I find in my experience, the overwhelming majority of clients that you work with, provided that the work goes well and the relationship goes well, they're so More than happy to help out. It's just that I don't think people think to take that step unless they're asked, right?

Mm-hmm.

And framing it in a way of, hey, I really appreciate the work that we were able to do together. You know, as you know, things like recommendations and testimonials really go a long way in helping me get new work and, you know, have those conversations with potential new business. I'd really appreciate it if you could do that for me. And, and people, they're, they're, they're— people get surprised. They're so, they're so happy to, to jump in and do those things. And then to your point too, Grant, of, and by the way, you know, I know this project has ended and we've had a great, you know, we've had— we've achieved some great things together. Do you know of anybody else that, that in your space, you know, your peers, your colleagues, that may be in the need for something similar? But if you don't take the approach of asking, and if you Again, don't frame it up the right way, it can either come off wrong, or again, if you're not even posing the question, you're selling yourself short. And you have to really make sure you're focused on those things because it's always about the next step. And whether that be the next step with building and expanding on existing client, or the next step in how you're going to replace a project that's ended and, and be able to find that next new business.

I love that. That's great advice. I've been asking definitely for the quote, like for the recommendation, but I need to learn or, you know, even practice the asking for the referral or, you know, mention my name. That's one of those role-playing things that I need to make myself go through.

Yeah, and I think with all this stuff that we're talking about, whether it be whether you're just starting your consulting career or You know, to your point, Courtney, of asking existing clients and who they might know and things like that. One of the things that I find really interesting about this space is sort of the psychology of it all, right? And it's, it's very different, obviously, than a traditional full-time employment role. You're the CEO, you're the salesperson, you're the marketer, you know, you're, you're everything for yourself. And psychologically, you have to, you have to prepare that way of, you know, if there are setbacks, if somebody says no, if you put out a LinkedIn post and it doesn't get any engagement, if you, you know, spend a lot of time on a proposal and you don't win the work, right? It's, it can— it's kind of like that imposter syndrome of you start talking down to yourself and you say, well, maybe Maybe this isn't the right space for me, or, you know, maybe, maybe I'm just not smart enough and that's why I didn't win this work, or this, this client, you know, didn't see the value or whatnot. And it's really easy to go down those roads.

Mm-hmm.

And it stops you. And what it does is long-term, it stops you from taking those steps that we're talking about in terms of continually, continuously connecting with your network and, you know, talking to your peers and looking for new work and asking people for things in a way that You know, they are more than happy to do. But it takes the right sort of mindset to look at it, you know, in a way that is very different from, again, a traditional full-time role.

Definitely. And I think that's why a lot of people are afraid to take really the leap. Like, you know, you and I are doing it full-time. People like to do the nights and weekends and kind of the side hustle. I really wanted to take the leap and dedicate my my career to it. I'm curious then, what about the silver lining? Some things that you enjoy? I mean, there's the fear of keeping the lights on and making money, but what do you find are the benefits and the perks that have kept you independent for so long, for 5 years?

Sure, sure. It's so funny because when I tell friends or family or things like that, and especially when I first started doing this, the obvious one is the freedom, right? The flexibility of schedule. And if I wanna sleep in this day and work till 2:00 AM that night, or, you know, If I want to work on the weekends and not work on certain days during the week, I can do that. And don't get me wrong, those things are all great. But for me, even more than that, I really love the variety of work that I get. I love working with a variety of different companies that can be either in different industries or different sizes or have different types of target customers within their space. And as well as the projects I get involved in with them and the platforms I get involved in with them. So for some organizations, it might be, you know, we have a really great vision for our marketing and we have some great campaigns laid out, but, you know, we're just really time-strapped and we need somebody to kind of own that piece of it, the execution of it, and make sure everything is running properly. And then for other organizations, it might be, yeah, we've got some type of vision and we've got some of these pieces and assets in place, but You know, we really need to talk through some of this, and it's kind of a combination of strategy and execution, right? And so the variety in those projects, the variety in the type of people I like to work with, is what really appeals to me most. Even again, I don't want to, I don't want to downplay the flexibility of schedule and everything like that because it definitely is a good perk. But that's what I think partly initially drew me to the space, and it's definitely what's kept me here too.

When you get to be both tactical and strategic, and I feel like sometimes in those full-time roles as you're As you grow in your career and you get promoted, it's kind of more and more strategy and herding cats, and it's people management, and you don't get to be as tactical. I've really enjoyed— I like being in the tools and in the platforms and paying attention to new releases and what comes out and keeping those skills fresh. But then also, I love it when a client wants me to come to a strategy session as well.

Yeah, exactly. I would imagine there's a certain level of energy that it provides, right? You're kind of switching between this and that. And, you know, it's not for everybody, certainly. I mean, there are certain people that are much more productive and at ease when it comes to, you know, more of a tactical routine or a similar expectation in terms of what they're going to face that day within the office. And I think, you know, the, the, the key to part of this and being successful as a consultant is You know, having that kind of even-keeled approach of not only, you know, the type of work you're going to get and the variety that comes with it, but certainly the ebbs and flows of business that, you know, may come and go and how you kind of adapt along the way.

Hey, Brian, did you ever— were you ever tempted to be like, hey, this is not just me, this is like a beginning of an agency? How do you feel about that kind of—

That's a great question. Yeah, it's a great question. I, I've wrestled with that in my mind for, you know, a lot of times, even to this day. Yeah, I don't, I don't know necessarily what the future holds in regards to that, but I do think it's important as you begin to get a foothold within the service that you offer. regardless if you have aspirations or not of starting an agency or managing people or anything along those lines, once you're able to kinda have a proof of concept, if you will, and you, again, you've established sort of a client roster and you know you can do this as a career, I do think it's important to make connections with other consultants or freelancers that offer services that are tangent to yours, right? So I have taken that approach as a start.

Mm-hmm.

And so for example, in the marketing ops space, I have a couple of connections with fellow freelancers that might be content writers, others that are designers or developers, right? So this way you can look at it in terms of another avenue to scale. If you are working with a client and they may be in need of those services as well, and vice versa, you have other freelancers and consultants that could pull you into projects. I have wrestled with that. I still continue to, Grant. It may be something that I go down the road of one day. I haven't taken that step yet. But regardless, I think it's important that, you know, any consultant in the space, you know, thinks about how they can continue to build upon, you know, their book of business. And it's not just— it's more than just raising your rates, right? It's how can you scale projects? How can you get involved in different projects with clients where, you know, you can add more value, you can partner with other resources and really look at a path to scale?

Yeah, no, this is— you've given so many great tips for anybody who's starting out. And you know what's funny is sometimes I see people become freelance on LinkedIn or something like as soon as they either leave a job or or lost a job or what have you. And I think that there is like almost like a grace period, like where people are not sure whether you're really a freelance person or are you just doing this until you get a new job? You know, I would say, I would say at 5 years, you've definitely passed that mark.

Oh yeah.

You're not going anywhere. And so I commend you on that. And it sounds like you're, you're doing what you love. It really comes across. And I wanted to thank you for taking the time to tell us all about your experience.

Yeah, I appreciate it. It's fun to reflect back on. And again, I would encourage anyone that's out there that's either in this space or thinking about going down this road to really consider it. Obviously, one of the things that— a quote that usually sticks with me that I think I heard from an Oprah talk a while back was, everyone says, follow your passion, follow your passion, right?

Yeah.

Well, what if you don't know what that is? And in that case, follow your curiosity. And that's kind of what led me to part of this is, again, going back to my full-time employment days, it was, oh, you know, these freelancers, these consultants that we work with, that's kind of interesting. That's kind of curious, right? How do they go about doing this? And so I'm thankful that it kind of led me to that point. And, you know, really grateful that I've been able to make a living out of it. And it's been fun. I appreciate you guys having me on today. It's been, uh, it's been a lot of fun to share, and, uh, I look forward to hearing more stories like this.

Excellent. Thanks, bro.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great one.

All right, take care. Thanks.

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