So Long, Farewell - The End of an Era

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

Tune into each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you and your marketing operations career.

Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by marketingops.com, powered by all the Mopros out there. I am joined today by my great co-host, Naomi. Mike, hello. Hello.

What's up everybody? For those of you watching, we waved. For those of you listening, we waved.

Yeah, that's right. Remember the days when we, uh, we would start these things and like, I'd have to coach guests. Like when you say something, when you, when you use body language, you have to actually say what you did. Because people wouldn't know because we didn't do video.

Yeah, they're like sometimes it was like people like oh thank you we're not on video and then right eventually we were like yeah but sometimes it matters you know yeah so we're like we're going video but now now Michael what are we doing today oh do we like do we need the drum roll we have the sound effects we never use they all just got it on cue there you go. What is happening? Wait, hang on.

Naomi's got the skills.

I feel like we have it.

Here we go.

She's got the—

oh, there we go.

I was wondering how long that was going to go. Oh, so I guess the big announcement, maybe it's, uh, maybe it's not so big, but the big announcement is this is, at least for now, the last episode of OpsCast, at least in its current form. We are taking a step back.

Is there a crying emoji or anything I can put up?

No, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to cry.

Yeah, a little emotional over here. This is it.

Yeah.

So it's been, it's been crazy. It feels like it's the right time. You know, it's, I think when you, Mike, when you and I first started talking about this, it was November, December 2020, something like that. That's, that's funny.

That's crazy.

So almost 6 years ago, and then we had our first episode on Jan 15th, your birthday, right? January 15th.

It was the day before my birthday.

Day before your birthday in 2021. And like, I never— if you'd asked me back then, would we— like, I wasn't even sure we'd make 10 episodes. And here we are at, you know, close to 250, 5 and a half years later. It's been a wild ride. I've, you know, I've been fortunate enough to talk to so many great people. And, you know, the 3 of us, like, it's, um, I think you guys like, uh, you know, professional, you know, siblings maybe.

Yeah, totally.

Although we were talking about ages earlier, maybe I'm more like an uncle. I don't know.

Do you have any standouts? Do you have any standouts? You must have like a top 3 or a top 5.

Um, like, um, you know what? I really don't. I've thought about this before. I've, I've, I've talked about there's, you You know what, there's a couple of things from different times that come to mind very quickly. Like one of our early episodes, I still think about this one probably every week or two, is the one we had with Brandy Sanders. And when she described, right, that some of the skill sets needed to be really good at marketing ops, and it was know how to play chess and understand human psychology. And I still think that is True. Maybe more true than ever in this kind of age where this is all pre-AI stuff. So that's one I think really stuck with me. Um, and like we've talked about this before, like I'm really proud of some of the things we've done. Like Naomi, when you did the takeover, right? We did the all women's one. That was super fun. Yeah. We talked, we've talked about, you know, some of the pressures that people are under. Um, it's funny. It's not the ones that like, The things that we've talked about, like the technology and the analytics and the campaign operations and career stuff, all those are great, but those are not the ones that stand out to me. Because I mean, it's not that they're not important and I'm not proud of them, it's just the ones where we kind of pushed a little bit, touched on subjects that maybe were a little bit tough to bring up or people wouldn't want to talk about them. I think that's it. Right. That's really the thing I remember from it all.

There was a couple episodes too where I think some of the guests were nervous because it was their first time ever doing something like this. And it was really— I found it really heartwarming or great to be able to offer this platform to them to be able to do that because maybe they may be too nervous or anxious to raise their hand at a know, at a bigger event like MAPSA, for example. Right. So doing something like this where they're talking to just like 1 or 2 or 3 people, um, hopefully that was a stepping stone for them to, you know, get their voice and feel a bit more confident.

Yeah. I loved that. We had a few of those, a few of those folks. We had, we had, we had some people come on to tell their story about, you know, being Being just a, um, not just a— I don't mean to dismiss it, but like being a mom, right? They were just a full-time mom and that was their focus. And, and then they transitioned into work that was sort of marketing related and the show was discovered and then their career grew and, and they ended up on the show.

Yeah.

You know, if you've listened for a long time, you know who I'm talking about. Shout outs to that individual. And Yeah. I just think, you know, that was, those are the things that stood out to me too, is like finding ways to allow people to learn from each other. And then you don't realize it. Like Michael and Naomi and I talk about this all the time. Like we know you all are like out there. Well, we don't know, I guess, but we surmise that you really are listening and paying attention.

Yeah.

Um, and, and there's these moments occasionally. I mean, they're very occasional.

Yeah.

Where it's like, oh, thank you so much for the show, or thanks for that episode, or, oh, I built my career after being able to sort of listen to what you were all talking about, or I got the confidence to speak at my next session because of, you know, coming on the show or, or whatever it was. Um, you know, it's a, it's a bit like parenting. It's a little thankless. When you do podcasting.

Well, no, it's, it's, and it's weird because you really don't know, you know, what's working, what's not working. Because most people just sort of like, probably we do too, right? I don't send feedback to podcasts that I listen to. You just said something though that reminded me. So we like, speaking of like the superpowers of some of the women we've had on, there was one woman who was a guest on who had an infant Interlap the entire episode, and I don't know how she did it.

Oh yeah, I remember that. That's right. That was, that was amazing. And it was like, it was nap time and it was like, let's just get where I was. I committed to doing this. We're doing this.

I was, I was just like, I was blown away at that because like, I think that like, that's right there. Like that is, um, It's definitely, I mean, I don't think there were any men who did that. I think we had one, one of the few complaints we had was we had a man on who had an infant, but the infant was in like one of those rocking chair things and it started playing music in the background. They couldn't stop it. And yeah, not quite the same. I mean, we powered through it just like we did, but like, it's just a different vibe.

Like, yeah, totally.

Yeah.

It reminds me of that, uh, For those of you listening, I don't know if you've ever seen the, uh, what is it? The, uh, is it the Hallmark commercial where it's like they do, uh, fake interviews for a job and the job is like, it's, it's an interview for being a mom.

I've, I've seen one recently. Yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

It's like that is hands down like anchored in my brain for forever.

Yeah.

Project manager, uh, scheduling assistant. Yeah.

You have to be able to—

well organized.

Like, uh, sometimes your client may need you to wake up in the middle of the night and you're gonna have to go into the office and like get the job done. Like, you know, it's just like all of these, I mean, totally ludicrous things.

And the people on the other side were like, what are you paying for this?

What is this?

Yeah. And you don't get paid, right? Yeah.

Oh yeah. And, uh, by the way, like, this is the, this is pro bono. And it's like, oh wow. It's just amazing. So yeah, shout out to the moms and. Especially the ones that came on the show and shared their story with us.

Yeah, we've had a couple of people who really opened up about like mental health challenges. Right. And I think, um, I mean, I think, I mean, I love that we were able to have people on and talk about those topics because they're like near and dear to my heart is something like, um, cause we went through this was, uh, people who've had miscarriages. Right. It's one of these things that I think people don't talk about and it's really, really hard to deal with. And usually you feel like you're the only one and it's like, I think I think, like, in that, you know, something that I think is true as a leader is like, you know, I think when I was early in my career, I think I believed that I could keep my kind of professional life separate from my personal life, right? And that's like, I don't think that's possible really, right? They kind of intertwine too much.

Yeah.

And so I think bringing that to light is, is, was something that we, we did a pretty good job of.

Especially now, I think, because a lot of people work from home and work remotely. It's not like you're— there's not as much of a separation between like, this is my home and I leave and I go to an office, right? Like a lot of times you're inviting people into like a private space in your house or your kitchen or your bedroom or your guest room or whatever it might be, right? And it's like, it— there's like a level of formality that kind of gets reduced when you're talking to a colleague.

Yeah.

And you're both at home, you know?

Yeah.

So, yeah, totally. That's, uh, that's what I was gonna say too. It's just, it's a different world that we live in today. And we did this show, gosh, I mean, technically we started it like pre-COVID. Like it was, we were in the throes of really going into all of that. So the world transformed on multiple levels. And, and now there's AI and I think some of the, you know, some of the conversations that are, that we've had in the past, uh, I think are very telling for just, you know, people in this profession. You're often technologists, you're very savvy, you're—

Yeah.

Self-starters, you're, you're curious, you know, uh, maybe you're not the person that wants to stand up in a room and be the loudest or the most boisterous individual and And maybe some of you are, because we've certainly met some of those folks in our community as well.

Absolutely.

But I think what's held true is that there's authenticity to who these people are. And I think the pattern of the discussions that we've had over the years in the show has at least signaled to me that that's sort of what makes this community special and what makes I don't know, companies really thrive is, is like not forgetting that there's, you know, this human aspect to everything and, and, and, and there's a personal component to everything you bring to the, to the office, whether you work from home or not.

Right.

It's like, yeah, you know, you don't need to bring all your baggage, but we certainly don't need to pretend like you're having a perfect day every single day either.

Right. Yeah. Do you think, um, I'm trying to remember back, whatever, 5 years ago, 6 years ago almost. I don't think there were really many, if any, podcasts that were kind of in and around this topic. There were definitely marketing ones, but I don't know that any were in ops. Maybe another thing, I don't know how much we influenced or made it possible for other people. I'd like to think that was possible because there's some other really good ones out there now too.

Yeah, I know there was a couple cuz I was a guest on a couple of them. There was like, is it Christy Saunders had one?

Yeah.

And then there was the Humans of MarTech one.

And then, uh, I thought Humans of MarTech came after us.

It did.

But I mean, I mean, yeah. Was it? Okay.

It was about 2 years. It was about 2 years into it.

Yeah.

Uh, one of the OG ones though, I think was, um, David Lewis's, the Demand Gen Podcast.

David Lewis. That was an OG podcast for sure.

I remember. I was on that pod, like that was, I recorded that one in 2019, I think. So that was definitely, yeah. OG.

Yeah. Demand gen report, demand gen pod type of stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

But like in the ops category specifically, I mean, no, not really. And, and, and, and I think that's been, that's probably been the thing that's been the most interesting for me is just like, how fast all of this grew, right? Just, you know, 5 years is not a short amount of time, but it's also not a long period of time either. And this landscape has just changed tremendously. And I think the attention to the role of marketing ops and RevOps was like really coming into its Stride during the history of this show too. And now we're at go-to-market ops and go-to-market engineering and marketing engineering and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I sound like a curmudgeon.

Old guy on the porch. Yeah, old man on the porch. That's usually my job, Mike. Come on.

Yeah, I know.

Don't take that from me.

But I think that's been The thing that's been really interesting is just, uh, yeah, whether we, um, you know, know it or not, paved a way or people just started to pay more attention and realize like, oh, I have something to say about that. Let me start a show too, or take a, you know, different take. I, I love that more of it was created as a result, uh, whether we influenced it or not, I, I have no idea, but yeah. Um, yeah, I think I just love how much of it is out there now and Uh, just creates an environment for us all to thrive. So that's good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All those, a lot of those people.

It's a journey, Hartman.

I know. I know.

We decided to start a, a, a conference along the way too, which is absolutely bananas.

Well, I mean, and then that's like, that's been a weird thing. Like, um, Showing up at, I can't remember if it was the second summer camp or my first time at MAPSA. Um, and I had people coming up to me like, oh, I know your voice. Yeah, totally. That's, that was weird. Yeah.

I've heard you in my, in my skull.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's funny. That is a weird moment when you first meet the people that you like listen to all the time or whatever.

Well, I remember like the first time you and I met, uh, I'm trying to remember. I can't remember if I was there for— I think I was there. I was coming to Southern California for a different work, like for my job. And I think you and I, you met me at, uh, John Wayne and at the airport. And then we went and had a drink and, uh, you brought me cookies from your wife, which were phenomenal and a big hit at the— yeah.

That's right. Yeah, I, I, that memory had left me until you started to bring it up. I forgot, like, yeah, we went to the little restaurant that's like right next door to the airport and my wife's cookie business has officially started now.

Yeah. Right.

5 years later.

Well, and I like, she's another one. I think I've told you and I've hopefully she's heard it from enough, but like, she, like, she sustained us for a long time. Like, I like truly.

That's right. So yeah, yeah. For those of you who don't know, like, uh, my wife, uh, Amanda, she was like the, um, the person put— pushing publish on all the episodes for quite some time.

Yeah.

Yeah. She took on this like ops job behind the scenes. Yeah. Eventually she was like, you know, speaking of moms who have a hard job to do already, she's like, you know, I got 2 kids to take care of, right? Like, I can't keep doing this. I was like, okay, we're gonna figure that out. So yeah, well, but now sadly we're not, you know, we're not gonna have to do any of that because—

I know. We'll have to make sure we stay in touch. All right. So you asked me like what stands out? What do you, how about you two? Naomi, what was, what was something that stood out for you? Like first thing comes to mind.

Just the constant, honestly, from a high level, the constant stream of people who wanted to A, be on the podcast and talk and like, The variety of perspectives that everyone has, right? You would think that, you know, 5 or 6 years later, 250 episodes, that we would run out of things to— people will run out of things to talk about. But it just goes to show you that, like, in our industry, there's many different ways to get to the same endpoint. And it's really interesting and fascinating to see how people get there, how they—

Yeah.

got into ops cuz there's no, like, you know, uh, hopefully our certification's changing that, right?

But yeah.

Uh, yeah, it's just, I think just like the breadth of and the variety of people that have come through the show has really just kind of stood out.

Yeah.

How about you, Mike?

Yeah, I think, I, I, I think that the depth and breadth of like topics, even though they often kind of scratch at similar themes. It was just how substantively different they could be.

Yeah.

You know, like it, it could be attribution, which naturally ends up being like one of the hottest topics all the time, but everybody's opinion on it, everybody's take, everybody's sort of spin was always something else. And, and I felt like we were always learning something new. You know, very, very rarely was there a level of like repeat sort of behavior and that kind of stuff. And, and it wasn't like we were going out of our way, you know, for, for those that don't know, like we, we did very little screening. Yeah. Like we would make sure that like we didn't bring somebody on that just was going to, I don't know, talk about building their lawnmower business or whatever.

Right.

Because like we'd get submissions for stuff like that. But other than that, like if you were MOPS adjacent or, you know, somewhat related to like a marketing go-to-market function, it was like, yeah, come share what you got to share. And the fascinating part is it was like very rarely ever repetitive.

Yeah, I would agree. And I think it reminds me like we did, yeah, we did for a long time, we were out kind of asking people to be guests. And it sort of flipped, flipped around where, you know, we were getting people who wanted, wanted to be on. They had a perspective. They, there's a topic they wanted. And you're right. It was rare that we turned somebody down. And probably out of all those episodes we did, maybe, maybe 10 people we said, you know, probably not the right fit. Right. I don't even know if it was 10, maybe 6.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Between 5 and 10, but like no more than that for sure.

Yeah. It was so, um, But like, I was thinking too, like one of the things that, I think you're right, like the different perspectives is an interesting lens. So if we're getting, we had several, like, I don't know, probably around the same number, half a dozen people who had been CMOs or were currently CMOs. And I mean, I thought it was always interesting to get their perspective on how they thought about ops, you know, compared to other things as part of the organization, what they leaned on, what they look for. I hope those were valuable for the people who are listening to go like, how am I being perceived? And helping them maybe, I still sense there's a lot of people who feel like they're overlooked in these roles. And, you know, maybe give them some ideas on how to, you know, be more in the spotlight, right? And be comfortable with that.

Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think, and when we look at, Just kind of scrolling through the history of some of the sessions we've had, like some of our top performing sessions are very much related to that, you know, CMO related kind of what CMOs should know about marketing operations and, you know, maximizing the marketing ops and CMO relationship and all this other kind of stuff. And obviously that's like a hot button item for folks and We've got, you know, obviously content you can go back and listen to, type in the word CMO and you'll probably find it in the history. But yeah, I think that, you know, where we're headed now as a community with the events and all that stuff, it's all, you know, I don't want to act like we're so buttoned up that we have it all orchestrated and analyzed and understood because gosh, there's a plethora of information here and data that would, I'm sure, really support so many things that we do, but we are learning from, like, observing and learning while we listen to these episodes to figure out, you know, how do we continue to help folks in this area? And so even though—

Yes.

We might not have a net new guest come on anymore, the work that you did, Michael, is super Imperative to the ability for this, you know, whole community to thrive. And I just, I can't thank you enough. I know we've done an episode or two like this before where I've thanked you, but I just, this is, this being the, the one, the last one, um, you know, I, I'd give you a virtual toast of whatever your favorite drink of choice is. Yeah.

Um, well, I appreciate it.

Thank you. And hopefully our listeners are saying things, you know, just whisper thank you to Michael when you hear this.

Thank you.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, well, I appreciate it.

It's overwhelming on like when we publish this, this like Michael's going to wake up. I feel so loved today.

That'd be awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, it's, uh, I will tell you, like, 13-year-old me would never have guessed I would have done something like this. I've been scared shitless with the idea of being out there and kind of the public stage. It's not really something I would have thought I would have done.

Yeah, I feel that more than you know. So yeah, I get you. Well, I, I just want to Yeah, I just wanna say thank you again. It's just been a wonderful journey. I know I haven't been able to be as available as I was in the earlier days and you pressed on. And I think that that is a testament to your dedication to the community, to the craft, to your desire to learn. And I think you're a sort of, if I could put you on a pedestal, like you're a prime example of exactly what a marketing operations go-to-market ops professional is, right? Someone who's willing to take on a challenge, do the research, figure it out, and just like put their head down and get it done. And you did it in a way that I think filled your cup up, but obviously, as we alluded to earlier, it helped fill the cups of others too. And I don't know, there's like, there's not much better you can ask for when someone just puts themselves out there and really goes all in and I think our listeners felt it. I certainly felt it. Um, and so, you know, thanks for being a shining example of what it looks like to be a, a good go-to-market ops leader that's forging a path.

It's, uh, I appreciate that.

Yeah, it's really cool, man.

Yeah, I just, nothing I can say, Mike, uh, would top what you just said. So I'm just gonna say ditto.

Like, I love this stuff.

Ditto.

Ditto. Uh, I wish I had written that all down. It probably would've been a little smoother.

Yeah.

No, but it's like, you know, genuine and authentic that way.

Yeah.

Yeah. No planned speech here. Sorry, bud.

That's all right. The usual.

Mike, Mike, Mike didn't read the show notes before the call started.

Yeah. At least, at least we, you're not making us try to, to, you know, lip sync over a, uh, a rap.

Yeah, that's true. That was actually, those were fun moments too.

That was fun.

We did the, We did all the little rap music, the intro song, by the way, for those of you that have been listening to the show for years, if you skip past the intro music after having heard it a few times, I totally understand. But, you know, shout out to my brother-in-law. So I had this like idea for how this intro would go in my brain from a scripting perspective. And you should have seen the 3 of us try to figure out how to say the words OpsCast, like at the same time.

Yeah.

I was like, you know what, maybe this is just something we have to edit together. And, uh, my brother-in-law did an incredible job layering in the, the entire thing and building that for us. And he just asked me, we were, we were together a week ago. Um, he's like, oh, you still using that? I was like, yeah, why would we change it?

That's so funny. I don't even think I realized that was your brother-in-law who, who did that.

Yeah.

Yeah. I probably knew at one point, but Did you—

he has an incredible ear. Like he can hear, um, he's, he's a musician, uh, on the side and he, he can just like hear things that I can't hear, you know? And, uh, and so he, he, he lined it all up or whatever. He was stoked and yeah, we published it and he was thrilled. So. It's a family affair, this podcast.

And, uh, well, and I feel like we, I feel like we've become family. Yeah. Yeah. So.

That's what I, that's what I feel too. I get, uh, I love, I love that we can all like stay in touch and text and all that stuff. And I, um, that doesn't, that doesn't preclude all of you out there, right? Like you might not have our phone numbers, uh, but yeah, you know, don't hesitate to reach out to us because we're all still around, uh, trying to be supportive of all of y'all.

Yeah. And I'm still around, just not running this podcast. Um, yeah, I'm always, I am always down to talk to people about this stuff, whether it's one-on-one or on a podcast. So Yeah, definitely don't hesitate to reach out.

Yeah, for sure. Actually, why don't you tell them what you're up to, Michael? You've got, you know, you're a marketing ops, rev ops guy and leader and you're a people leader, but you do a little bit of coaching too, right?

Yep, I do coaching. I mean, what I think I am strong at and what I actually get a lot of satisfaction out of is working with, you know, new leaders or people who are thinking about being a leader. People leader, because I think most organizations do a really terrible job of identifying the right people, then preparing them for what the expectations are that are often assumed to be understood, but a lot of times aren't. And then, you know, help them learn some new skills because it's— there are different skills that are required to be a good leader than to be a good individual contributor, right? So. That's, that's what I love to do. And I'm definitely open for more, more clients there. I've got a handful right now. And with, with the podcast ending, I'll have a little bit more opening too as well. So thanks for letting me talk about that.

Yeah, absolutely. And we probably should have put that on the forefront a little bit more often. But yeah, if anybody's interested, you've heard a lot from him. If you haven't, go back and listen to more episodes. And you'll get to know who you're talking to and it could be really good.

Yeah. Yeah. So, funny thing is I actually sent an LLM at all the transcripts for all the episodes and had it do an analysis of me. So that's been an interesting exercise.

Ah, really? And so did you do like a DISC analysis of your episode recordings?

I didn't do a DISC analysis. I think I had a DISC analysis that I provided. I definitely had Myers-Briggs and I've got, StrengthsFinder and all that. But yeah, it's been interesting just to see what it took, and especially because they're just, I think, yeah, at the beginning, I think we leaned heavily on more of the tech and analytics stuff. And over time it shifted. We still had some of that, but it was a little more of the strategic thoughts and stuff like that. So it had a lot to chew on.

Yeah.

And, you know, and I think, um, I, I tried really hard to do what I'd want somebody to do, which is like challenge. Like sometimes if I didn't agree with, like, you, I think the 3 of us had times where we didn't always agree on stuff and I think that's valuable, right? I think showing people how to have those conversations is, is an important skill. That's one of those skills as a leader you need to be able to have is have tough conversations without completely undermining a relationship.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I know it wasn't often that we got to disagree on much, but sometimes it happened.

No, usually had to do with Naomi, you know, going all in on Canada.

Oh, I learned things recently about Canada and that the beverage that I was going to purchase.

Oh yes, that's right.

I guess, I guess Canada banned all the American alcohol or whiskey.

You can't even buy it. Yeah, yeah, they pulled it off the shelves.

Really? They pulled it off the shelves?

Yeah. So you, you go to the liquor store and like you go to the USA section and there's nothing.

Yeah, you can only get Canadian whiskey, Canadian rye.

Like, uh, well, everywhere else too, like Europe and, you know, Asia-Pac, just no USA, you know, because—

yeah, that's funny—

of certain, of certain Things, you know?

Yeah, yeah, specific, specific.

A few specific things.

Maybe, maybe I'll get us all a little bottle or something.

She's like, yeah, because I think you were like, because you were like, oh, go— yeah, because you were like, go and buy this, and then I'll remember. And I was like, well, I literally can't, so— yeah, yeah.

But then I was like, wait, what? And I was like, okay, but I want us to all have the same one. And then I forgot, so we did.

Yeah, we could, we could do a virtual Canadian whiskey You know, shot cheers somewhere along the way. Yeah, I don't have any problem with Canadian whiskey, especially with a little ginger beer.

I just, I should have just bought some. I just forgot.

It's my fault.

I was in Hawaii. Sorry, I was on vacation.

Yeah, I forgot. You took vacation?

Boo-hoo.

Yeah, I know. Uh, well, I think we're lingering and listeners are probably like, why did I listen to the rest of this now.

Yeah. All right.

Well, hey, why don't you do our final sendoff?

Yeah. As always, thanks everyone for your support. We, we really do appreciate it when we do get feedback. So, um, but mostly we like, we try to provide a service. And so thank you for your support. Um, thanks for being there. Thanks for your ideas. And for those of you who've been guests, right? Thanks for joining us and sharing and perspective and most of all, The two of you. Thanks for being who you are. I mean, I like feel like I'm one of the luckiest people out there. I got to really get to know you two and got to know a lot of other people through this. So, um, as hard as this is, uh, it's the right time and I will cherish it.

Yeah, us too.

Well, yeah.

Thank you, Michael. Thank you, listeners, for, for being involved for the last 5 years. We really appreciate you. And, uh, We'll let you know if there's anything new coming. We have no plans yet. Um, but please listen, share, rate, review the past episodes. The content's great.

Yeah, it's all still relevant. Yeah. All right. Until next time, maybe, maybe. Bye. Bye, y'all.

Bye, everybody.