The Missing Layer Between Strategy and Execution in Marketing with Charral Izhiman

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman. I'm Naomi Liu. And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by marketingops.com, powered by all the MoPros out there. I am your host, Michael Hartman flying solo once again. But today I'm joined by Sheryl Izziman, who is head of marketing at Baobab and the author of The Marketing Movement. Sheryl brings a really interesting perspective to marketing leadership and organizational change. One of the themes that stood out to me from previous conversations with her is that many organizations still fundamentally misunderstand what marketing is supposed to do. Her work focuses less on teaching marketers how to market And more in helping organizations understand how to better work with marketing teams in the first place. So we're going to spend a lot of time in the ops world. Well, we spend a lot of time in the ops world talking about systems, processes, execution, reporting, alignment. And we're going to go deep into that in this conversation and really into the tension between strategy and execution, the role that ops teams can play as translators across the organization, and why activation— we'll get into what that means for her— is often the missing step between planning and results. and how marketers could do a better job connecting the work to business impact. Theme that I like. All right, we're also gonna talk a little bit about her SHAPE framework, which we'll get into. Storytelling versus dashboards, another hot topic for me. Why marketing leaders need to constantly zoom in and zoom out between operational detail and strategic perspectives. Sheryl, thank you for joining.

Thank you very much, Michael, and hello, MarketingOps community.

Yeah, we're glad to have you here. All right, well, let's dig into this. So one of the things from our earlier conversations that really stood out is is that, you know, you're not really, you didn't really try to write a book for marketers, which is an interesting one being your background, and that you're trying to help non-marketing leaders understand marketing better. Why was that so important to you? And what, how, like, I'd be curious also, what's the reception been for it?

So it was important for me to do that because when I was looking at the market, there are so many books out there by marketers for marketers, And it's a complex profession, but it hasn't changed the way non-marketing leaders engage with the department or the function. There are all these misconceptions and preconceived ideas, which is not helping marketing do its best work. So I was like, okay, I really need to find a way to get the best out of my leaders, the people I work with, so that we can do a better job. And it dawned on me that I actually need to start translating the functions, but obviously you don't wanna translate the whole function to, you know, an marketing audience. And that's when the idea slowly developed and I was like, okay, I need to write a book that simplifies it enough for them to work well with us so that we do a better job. So it came, it was a real crucial need in my day-to-day job to have a better conversation with non-marketing leaders.

No, so it was a little bit of a survival instinct kind of thing. Absolutely.

And it took a while to get there as well.

Yeah, I'm fascinated by this because I think, I don't know, it was several years ago. I remember reading something and I don't know if the data is still accurate, but somewhere I saw that it was like well less than 10%, maybe closer to under 5% of like board members or senior executives had never really worked in marketing themselves. So they're like, I think they've just not really been in those shoes either. So it makes sense that People don't understand it.

It does. And I don't think, I don't think they're necessarily too interested. I think, you know, it's, it's meant to be someone else's job, but it doesn't help the people who do that for a living do their best, you know? Right.

Yeah. Yeah. So what, like when you, when you started doing this, what, what are the, what are some of the outdated assumptions about marketing or biggest misconceptions that you see that are happening in organizations?

I mean, I found it really depends on when somebody was exposed to the marketing profession or a marketing team. Some of them think it's advertising if they're maybe an older generation. Some might think it's PR. There'll be people who see it just as social. Many just think it's full of hype and campaigns and the pretty things. So many different misconceptions really. It depends who you speak to.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, it feels like, I remember one of the things I've talked about is like the 4 Ps, right? There's like only one P seems to matter anymore, which is I guess promotion, right? So, yeah.

Absolutely.

Okay. So one of the things I've talked about before, and I think you and I had talked about before that I agree with, is that part of the problem is actually on, you know, at the feet of marketers who've not really done a great job of communicating what their role is, what they do to the rest of the organization. Like, what's your take on that? Do you mean, do you think that's part of the problem? And I'm curious, like part of the, I should be told I haven't read your book. So is part of what you do help to also address marketers? How can you better communicate to your executive team?

Definitely. I think marketing professionals are, you know, too deep in their daily routine and work, and I don't think they translate their work very well, especially when it goes upstream. I think it needs to start speaking or sound like business impact, and they're talking about so much detail that your average leader can't absorb. And I also think that there needs to be a tangle. You need to be able to step out of your space into someone else's shoes to speak their language. So there's a lot of translation and interpretation that needs to happen rather than stick to the terms and phrases that you would use in your day job.

Yeah. I mean, the irony to me in all this is that marketers, part of what I think marketers are perceived as being good at is communicating, especially communicating to their audience, but they somehow regularly miss that on the internal audience, right? I mean, that's the sort of irony of all this, right?

Absolutely. I agree with you so much. I think there's more pressure though, isn't there? When it's your own, there's more pressure and you lean on the details too much when that's not the point. And that's why in the book I used a lot of storytelling and metaphors. So I simplified it. So when I am explaining something related to marketing to a colleague or a leader, I'm not using, you know, a traditional language. I'm actually using a story, a metaphor, just something so different because they're not really that interested in our terminology. So why go there? And it would also be dumbing down the profession a little bit, which I don't wanna do.

Right. Oh, that's a really good point. I never thought, I mean, I'm with you on the storytelling piece and maybe we can talk more about that in here in a bit, but I hadn't really thought about it as a way of dumbing it down so it actually contributes to this misperception of what it is. That's a really good insight. Yeah, I love that.

Yeah.

Well, okay, so maybe let's take this a little bit, maybe a level deeper. So as you know, our audience is primarily marketing ops or rev ops. People. And one of the things I like about the role is how it sits at the intersection between, you know, marketing, sales, finance, legal, leadership, you know, sort of like you need, you know, you've got to have feet, at least be able to translate well, right? So I think that ops teams are uniquely positioned to help do that translation between marketing and the rest of the business. Do you agree with that? And if so, like, what have you seen from the marketing ops teams in particular, I guess, that you've worked with? How have they helped you as a leader do that communication?

I definitely think market ops have a unique opportunity to translate. I was thinking about it actually earlier today, and it's not just translation though. I think it's interpretation because you never know what problem they're gonna deal with or what misconceptions somebody puts on the table where they go, no, let me unpack that. What do you really mean? And you keep going, you're drilling deep until you get there. So I think they have the opportunity with the one-on-ones, but I still think there is a responsibility for the marketing leader and leadership in general to set up, to educate a bit the audience further, you know? So I think you need to do it from the top and, you know, basically one-on-one. So there's a bit of both going on there.

Are you talking about from the top and one-on-one with, I just was trying to make sure, the one-on-one you're talking about like with the marketing leader and the marketing ops team or marketing ops leader one-on-one, or are you talking about one-on-one with conversations with, Others outside of the marketing organization?

I mean, it goes back to the communication element you talked about, really, isn't it? I think you can't under— you can't overcommunicate in this instance. Like, if you've got an opportunity one-on-one to clarify something, you need to go for it. But I think the leadership team needs to be speaking the language of marketing so that they can use that in business. I think it's kind of cross-functional. It just, you need to communicate from so many different angles because the misconception is the baseline. You know, that is the truth. Our baseline is that they don't understand. And then we're not gonna all of a sudden educate a non-marketing audience. It doesn't make sense either. So you've gotta find a different way to do it, to influence.

Yeah. Have you, so just curious, have you, 'cause I've been asked to do this, sit in with the CMO in meetings with the senior executives and try to like actually be the one to, when the CFO asks a question, right? I am, I'm the one answering the questions. Have you brought in, your marketing ops team to help with some of that facilitating, some of that communication with executive teams, or do you tend to make sure that you're comfortable understanding it and then do that translation yourself?

I think you have to bring in the team because otherwise you come across as a one-man band. You know, you have all the answers and that defeats the point. You do have a team. That's the whole point of what marketing is like. There are generalists, there are specialists, and you don't have the answers yourself. Somebody can explain it better than you sometimes. So I think breadth is important. It gives more credibility to the kind of message you need to portray.

Yeah. And what I find is when you get into those scenarios, very often there, you may be prepared as well as you can be, but then there will be a question that comes up that you would need somebody else to help you answer. Absolutely. So having somebody there who can address those, or at least say, yes, we can address that, and this is how we're going to do it, and we'll bring it back to you next time, right? I think there's different ways to handle that, but, well, I'm glad to hear that because I think, I don't know that a lot of marketing ops teams get to do that. I think they're held kind of at arm's length from the other teams in some cases. All right. So I mentioned this when I, when I, when I introduced you, the idea of zooming in and zooming out. You mentioned that in our previous conversations, it's important to be doing that sort of zooming in and zooming out. I guess first of all, like, what do you mean by that? Right. And then why is it, why do you think it's hard for most marketing organizations to maintain that balance of going back and forth between zooming in and zooming out?

So the reason why I like the idea of zooming in and zooming out, because nothing is static, you know, the conditions of the situations you're dealing with are never static. They keep changing. And that's why the book ended up being called The Marketing Movement, because I realized things are always moving, they're always changing. So, and zooming in and zooming out is because it's one thing to have a strategy and to have execution, but sometimes you've gotta go back and go, why am I doing this? And then you're still doing it. And it's just kind of, it's like this reminder. So, and that's why I feel like you're moving. That's why the word movement was such a big deal to me because, and I was thinking about strategy just today as well. It's not just business strategy, it's your marketing strategy and then your brand strategy, your growth, et cetera, et cetera. So, You can't keep all of that in your mind, you know, so you have to step away, you know, big picture and then the details and so on and so forth. So, you need to be able to move like that.

Okay, so not quite on the same level, but I've worked in at least one marketing organization, it's the one I think of when I come to this, where the marketing leadership team worked really hard on developing norms of how we're gonna operate within the marketing team. Well, it started out with the leadership team and then we said, Let's roll this out to the rest of the team. And one of the things we did, this was still when we were all in the office, was literally had a one-pager that was like, like we said, you know, put it up on your desk, we printed it out, put it up on your desk as a reminder. Do you think there would be value in having something like that? These reminders between, like, on a daily basis, like, here's our big picture strategy, what we're trying to achieve. So when you're working on something, like, are you, or something comes in from the side, right? Is it aligned with that or not, right? Or are we knowing that it's not, but we still have to deal with it, right? Do you think there'd be value in something like that?

It's so interesting that you say that because, yeah, I mean, years ago we were all in the same office, but we're not. I mean, my team is around the world, so I don't have that privilege at all, actually. I mean, we do have like, you know, one slide which summarizes everything, but also I think that's great for the team, the marketing team itself, but it doesn't mean everyone else is looking at the same One page, right? So, yeah. And I also think a lot, I also find that most business leaders, they want to talk and to be heard. So, when you intervene, you've kind of gotta be to the point and it's very solution-oriented, which goes back to your point, right? Bringing in the rest of the team because I think they can often brainstorm live and solve a problem live with the extra details. Yeah.

Well, and what I find in those is like if there's a problem or something that you're trying to resolve, usually most cases I've found it like there's not a clear definitive, this is the direction we should go or the answer to that problem. And that there's trade-offs between different ones and having more perspectives tend in encouraging that kind of active debate or discussion. Usually generates the best understanding of what those trade-offs are going to be so you can make an informed decision, right? You know that like, oh, we're going to go down this path and we know that that means that we're going to be giving up this thing or there's a risk that we're going to take on. But I think that's the reality of it. And I think that's the value of having those different voices in a discussion like that.

Absolutely. And to your point, I think having the North Star makes sense. So you need that and you need to You need to obviously, once you've realized your strategy, implement. But I think how that changes quite a bit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm a big fan of, like I probably mentioned this on this podcast before, I'm a big fan of one of the books that really influenced me is called Execution: The Discipline of Getting Things Done, which is a little bit of a like rough title to get through. But I mean, what I remember, what really stuck out to me is like strategy's important, But you need a strategy that can be, you know, you just need to start executing. You're not going to be able to predict everything. And so you need to have one that's flexible enough that you can adjust right now. There may be North Star things, right? Core things that you need to achieve or goals you're setting. But I think leaving the room for adjustment is really important in a strategy. So that's really like a point of view I have.

So Okay.

So one of the things in your, I think it's in your book you developed was the framework called SHAPE. So S-H-A-P-E, right? So why don't you walk us through what that is and why people should care about it?

So I actually developed the framework at the end. I had written all the chapters and then like, okay, what does this mean? What am I trying to say here? And it dawned on me that the sections of the book were basically a whole framework that kind of summarizes it. And the reason why I chose the SHAPE framework is because The book is about shaping the foundation for a team to succeed, you know, and then the 5 letters stand for something. So shape is your strategy, your alignment, you know, exactly, you know, your North Star. Heart is people, it's brand, it's all the things to do with feeling and connecting. Activation was the really interesting one, which is probably what the heart of the book itself, which is just all the work you need to do to be ready to be in business. And then purpose is pretty straightforward because it's inspired by the brand, by the business, what the impact the company's trying to have. And execution is a no-brainer. We all know that one. So I found that strategy and execution, everybody knows them pretty well, but it's the elements in between that I was like, okay, don't forget about these. And I've just, I described the SHAPE framework as pillars. And if you were just to imagine that, imagine having some pillars that are, you know, sturdy and the others that are crumbling, it would just not make any sense. So what I'm arguing is, You can't have a few and not the rest. You have to have them all. And it's because I've seen many instances where one of them is neglected or overlooked, and I just don't think it works that way. You need to treat them the same level of importance.

Now, I think this is really interesting. So the strategy and execution people tend to understand, and they're easiest probably to describe, right? Yeah. And they're sort of the bookends and required, I like this idea that there's these other elements that you could use as a way of communicating other components. And yeah, I think it's interesting. It feels like some of those, this is where it gets a little bit squishy probably, because there's elements of that that seem to apply both to like internal stakeholders and executives, as well as customer-facing stuff. Am I understanding that right?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to translate that way as well because you've got to align yourself internally to then do the work you need to do externally. It's a mirror from my perspective. So you have to get your pillars in order.

Got it. Yeah, this is really interesting. All right. So the activation one, A in SHAPE, is probably the one that feels the most connected to our ops audience. And it feels like it might be an overlooked one. Can you break that down a little more? And when you say the things that they need to do, like what are organizations missing when it comes to activation and readiness to move forward with the strategy and execution?

I think when it comes to activation, it's about being ready to do something, whatever it is, whatever your goals are. I find that it's taken for granted that somebody's gonna activate, somebody's gonna sort out what you need to do so that you're basically starting a race. And that's why I've used metaphors in the book, and I like the F1 metaphor quite a bit because imagine starting a race but not having wheels or nobody checked the engine or there's no driver or, I mean, there's a million problems you can imagine. And we all appreciate the nature of a race.

Absolutely.

It's the same thing. If you don't have a checklist that you've gone through, haven't got the right resources, people, systems, all of it, you're gonna flop, you're gonna fail. So, and that's, I find that one a really good way to explain activation because like I said earlier, People don't really want to understand how marketing works, but they can absolutely appreciate that they wouldn't dare, you know, put a racing team on the track that wasn't ready to race and win. So it's like, oh, okay, I get why you're saying this. I don't know the details, but I'll appreciate it and I'll let you do what you need to do, you know? So that was where it came from.

So it sounds like there's a little bit of element of that that I don't know that I picked up on when we first talked about it is has to be with Clarity around roles and responsibilities too, right? Because take the F1 one, like if it's not clear who's going to be the one, you know, taking the wheels, like doing the release of the wheels and who's going to put them back on, who's going to tighten them. Like everybody's got individual roles and responsibilities. And if any one of them falls apart, right, car goes out and the wheel comes off. I mean, is that part of it too? Is it just not only Because that's probably, you describe sort of like, these are the things that we would need to do to be able to activate to move forward, but there's also like, who's going to do what? Is that part of it as well?

It is because it's the system, it's the people, it could be resources of any kind. All of them come together. It's quite a chunky part, I think, to be fair. And I do feel like there are assumptions because somebody might be assuming a role and they're busy with this, they can't do that, but both things need to be done. So yeah, it's all of those things. And I find them, they're very operational, you know, going back to marketing ops, they are very operational. It's kind of like it's someone else's job to do because the higher you go up in leadership, the more strategy is, you know, everybody's focus and execution is very easy to see.

Yeah. Well, and I think what happens if that's not clear is people make assumptions about who's gonna do what. And then when it doesn't happen because I assumed you were going to do it, but you assumed that someone else was going to do it or you didn't think it was yours, then it doesn't get done. And then everyone pays the price for that.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's important. So it's interesting. I mean, it's interesting now that we've talked about the 2 outside parts of shape and the one that's in the middle, maybe talk about like, I I don't fully understand the, I can't remember what H stands for now. It was off the top of my head. So, the H and the P in SHAPE, what, kind of talk through those again, a little more detail, please.

Sure. So, the H is heart. So, heart for me, it basically relates to the brand. It relates to people. So, internal stakeholders, the customer, customer sentiment, the voice of the customer, connecting, communication, all of those elements. 'Cause you do need a communication plan, you need obviously a customer engagement plan, you need to have a brand, you know, brand is a foundation element and membership is about shaping your foundation. So that's what heart is about, is all those elements that make the experience warm, is one way to look at it. That's why I chose the word heart.

Sure.

And as for P, purpose, and it really is very much related to the strategy you have, your business objectives, your mission, your vision, what you're trying to achieve, the impact you will have on the community. It's just that extra layer of orienting you, I suppose, to what you're trying to achieve. Okay.

I think, okay, so the heart one has to do with how we want both internal stakeholders and customers or prospects to kind of feel about the brand. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. Is that close to what you're saying?

Yeah, it's how they will engage the brand because I mean, what will a brand do? I mean, brand is important for your foundation as a marketing team, but how do you know a brand is successful if it's resonating with the customers and it is actually helping you with your growth marketing and so on and so forth? And for it to resonate externally, it needs to be, you know, adopted and you need, people need to believe in it internally. So it just plays such an important foundation. It's not just logos and colors and taglines and those kind of, you know, yeah, that's like the least part of it, right? Great value things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's the heart. That's why I like to describe it as the heart because you either feel it, it moves you, it does something which is intangible until you quantify it as equity. But You know, it does matter and it does help you move. And that's the whole point is you wanna move an organization forward. Yeah.

Well, and then the purpose is really, I think it feels like it's alignment around values, norms, you know, what's the bigger purpose, right, of the organization. And I mean, I think that's important because especially if you're in an organization, like, people wanna be part of something that has purpose, I think. I think there's a lot of that missing in a lot of people's professional lives. And I want to drill down on those because it feels like it would be easy to skip over those from an operations standpoint. But it feels like, again, kind of going back to like having something in front of you that goes like, this is the norms we expect for us, right? So if we're going to live out our values, this is like, this is how we're going to communicate both internally, externally. This is the expectations we're gonna have for people. And the hard part, here's what, like, where it comes to me with, from an ops standpoint, I'd love to get your take on this, is one of the things I see a lot of organizations, especially big organizations, is there's this sort of a norm that happens is like, we're like really cautious about how people communicate to customers. Right? Or who can do it? And, uh, and then maybe there's lots of layers of approvals and reviews on content, things like that. And I'm like, that's such a slowdown thing. Like if we, if we let people, like we give people the grace, like we trust you to do this because you all understand there's elements that are a part of the heart and purpose that we trust you, you're gonna make the best decisions you can in the moment to say, communicate with a frustrated customer or something. And then give grace if it doesn't go well and then learn from it. Like, that's why I feel like it's an important piece and it's really, I don't think a lot of organizations I've seen or been around have really talked about that and then lived it out.

Absolutely agree with you. And it's interesting, I think we do a lot of brand education where I work right now and I think people who are customer-facing still feel the pressure. Did I, am I gonna say the right thing? Okay, when you, would you wanna check this? Should I do this? Should I not do that? And I'm at the moment, I'm trying to encourage everybody to just, you know, live the brand, represent it. You know, like as long as you are moving forward with good intent, the chances are you are gonna do the right thing because you've got all the right values, ideas, and training in place. And I do think you need to do that because I don't think we can't be a bottleneck anymore and time is changing. Like we've got all these platforms, social, user-generated content, all of that. And it's normal to generate content. So if you don't know how to represent your brand, I'd say it's a bit outdated. You need to be able to do that because it's just everyday life. Content is so easy to create and we all do that.

Yeah. Well, and exactly, we're all— this is what I was doing working like customer service kind of, or customer support kind of stuff is, you know, people all had these very rigid structured ways of pushing knowledge-based content out, right? And it took so long, it never got reviewed. And so people who were actually doing the communicating directly had their own version, right? They were already communicating stuff. So I was like, why put all these hurdles in the way of getting it out? If it's, we think, if we truly believe that getting these answers to customers so they can solve their own problems faster is useful. And it was such a hard thing to get people to really go like, oh yeah, like that recognition, like the communication's already happening, whether you know it or not. Now we can at least make it more visible.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a bit of trust, isn't it? There's a bit of trust there, isn't there? I think some people, give them a bit of trust and, you know, if it's not perfect, so be it, you know, but I think intent, I do think customers read intent, you know, as long as the intention was well and it's giving. So it's better to show up than to be too scared to show up.

Yeah. And I totally agree with that. Okay. So we talked about like the strategy execution are pretty well understood and I think in some ways, I think marketers tend to, part of their communications tends to fall towards what's called execution, including the metrics around execution. Why do you think that Why do you think that there's, it feels like there's more celebration of execution versus strategy in a lot of organizations? Why do you think that is? Or am I, tell me I'm off base here.

No, I think I agree with you. I think execution, if I was just to think of an army, I think execution is the soldiers. They just, so many people are executing. There's so much work to be executed, to be done, right? But strategy, you know, it's very much a direction, you know, you in a way, once you know where you're going, you know, you don't change your strategy every day, do you? But it takes so much to realize that strategy. So I suppose that's what happens. So I think we end up having this comfort that a strategy is done and realized or sorted out, you know, and that all the work now is execution. But interestingly, your strategy sometimes has to change, doesn't it? Sometimes you have to pivot. Sometimes, you know, market's changed, you know, it doesn't work anymore. That will happen too. So.

Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm a big fan of having a strategy. I don't want to discount the effort you should put into developing a strategy. I think you need to have that. But I think again, like having the flexibility to adjust based on what really happened. The analogy I use, even though I'm not a sailor, is sailing, right? I know I want to go from point A to point B. The best I know is the conditions that are really close to me. What I don't know is when I get out, right? Is the wind shift— wind going to change direction? Is it going to stop? Is it like, and I have to be really ready to adjust to still make it to like head in the right direction and then learn and adjust. And that's like, I feel like that's the way strategy should be, right? You need to like, oh, I need to go here from here to there. I know generally where I, how I need to start going there, but I need to be flexible.

Absolutely. One of the chapters in the book, and I used metaphors related to direction and it was the audience is the compass. And I think ultimately, You know, that is how you know which way you need to go. And I'm going back to the F1 when I was listening to you there as well. Like when people are on the track, but when they're making decisions which race to join, it's the same thing. You can't do everything in anything as well. You've got to choose what actually makes sense for the business and what you're trying to achieve. So yeah.

I mean, it's, this is like one of the biggest lessons both in personal productivity and in businesses. Choosing wisely what to say no to.

Yeah, very much so.

Absolutely. Because we all feel like we want to do, like a lot of us in this space want to do more.

Okay.

So I want to get, maybe this is where we can kind of come back to the storytelling piece. So one of the things I think you and I talked a bit, talked about before was, you know, there's obviously a need for reporting and metrics and Oftentimes it comes to marketing ops teams is like, I want a dashboard. So one of the challenges I keep running into is that, yeah, sometimes like there's this desire to do metrics for metrics' sake almost, right? And they don't internally, don't always match what kind of going back to the original premise, right? That the other parts of the business don't understand marketing. From your perspective, how How should marketing leaders be thinking differently about what they're measuring and reporting to the organization? And where does, like, and then maybe go into like where the storytelling piece comes in.

Well, when it comes to metrics and dashboards, I use the metaphor sweet shop, and I think it really is, I feel like dashboards are like a sweet shop. You go in there and there's so many things you could buy or taste or try, but do they really, do you really need them all? You don't. And I think that's the same thing as dashboards. You know, an ideal dashboard for a mature organization has a lot in there, but then different stakeholders need to see from a different perspective. So anyway, you need different versions of that. And it can get exciting because the data gives you a lot of, obviously helps you make decisions, but you really don't need it all. And different stakeholders and different levels in the organization need different data anyway. So I've actually, I really shy away from dashboards and I kind of like the idea of what one thing do you really need to know? One thing at a time. And it goes back to the sweet shop, like a sugar rush, you know, you just don't need them all. You need one thing. And just if it's social, just to keep it really simple, you know, if you're starting out fresh, maybe you need followers. Maybe it really is just how many people see me, know me, but eventually you need engagement. Nothing else. Just focus on that and you keep evolving.

Yeah.

But I don't think you want measuring them all. Just feels like you're getting busy. I think it's like an overload and I don't find it helps because it just becomes overwhelming and you don't know which one you want to advance. And you need to, when I did the SHAPE framework, I also came up with the Movement Readiness Index. And concept there was, what's your next quarter moves? What's the one thing you need to do? Just one thing.

Yeah.

I like to scale it back so much because I've needed to scale it back myself so often as well. You know, when I've gone, oh my God, there's all these things that everybody wants and expects of me. But really, which one will I focus on so that I can go and say, okay, I moved the needle here and this was the impact. So, I think of metrics and dashboards as a sweet shop. Like, you can't have them all. You have to be disciplined, you know?

That's a fun analogy. Yeah, I mean, I think every time I get— I've been asked to like go build a dashboard and we didn't have any others, like, no, I almost wanna say no. I usually don't just say no, but I will say like, kind of to your point, like, what are the things, like, what are the initial metrics you think we should, we need? Let's start there. Like, let's nail that down. But you hinted at this, and I think this is a really important point, is even if we say we want to do all these metrics, not all of them are appropriate for every audience, right? And I think that's a really important distinction that a lot of marketing and marketing ops teams need to understand is it's amazing how much data we have as marketers now. It's truly incredible.

Yeah.

So like, and so there's this, I think there's this urge to be data-driven in quotes, right? Which I really hate even using that term because I think the risk there is that you get caught up in data for data's sake and not useful, especially for the wrong audience, right? So if you're talking about, I'll give you your example, your social media ones, right? I don't know how much the CEO or CFO is going to care about that unless you can bridge that with a story, right?

Yeah.

This is why we care about engagement, Right. But you don't necessarily need to show all the other stuff underneath it. Now, should the marketing team, especially the team that's working on that, understand the other details of that? Absolutely. Right. But that's a different audience for a different purpose.

Yeah.

Yeah. So tell me your, like, I know I have my own sort of version of why I think storytelling is a missed opportunity for a lot of marketers. And I think it goes back to this desire to be seen as data-driven. that we've almost gone too far in the direction of just presenting data and numbers as opposed to telling stories internally. What's your take on, like, is there a time that like something clicked for you where that happened? Or what's your view on storytelling as a part of measurement?

I think for me, storytelling is basically helping the person you speak to understand. I think they're, you know, the mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's open. And I think if you throw numbers at people, they're trying to comprehend and take it all in and connect the dots. But if you deliver that as a story, it's easier. They can absorb what you mean. And that's why I go back to metaphors again, because metaphors and stories kind of work together. But I think it just helps something land quicker. And I think it neutralizes my terminology as a professional and your terminology as a professional, and it just helps us speak plain English in a way, really. And I find stories help us do that. They're quick, they're short, There's a bit of emotion in there, so people kind of get it, but you're also delivering a few facts here and there. So I like delivering stories that way because of that. And also from my side, I don't remember every term that I need to use as well. So it's like me making sure I will deliver a story that resonates and people understand rather than trying to go, okay, remember this and this and that. So it's delivery and it's also how it's received. I find it just makes it so much easier for communication.

Yeah. I mean, I love the idea of analogies or metaphors. Um, curious what your take is, like how important is it? 'Cause you, you kind of, I'm not sure I picked this up, but it sounded like you don't love, I'm putting words in your mouth, don't love the idea of using your terminology or the terminology of the other person or people that you're referring to. Um, in my view, like I think understanding their terminology is useful. I don't know that I would use their terminology to talk about how market, like what marketing's done, unless it made sense to do it. Sales was probably the most logical placement. Did I, am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Like, it's not that you don't want to use, is it more that you don't want to use their terms or, but you still want to understand it, or is it something else?

No, no, no. I mean, like, I appreciate your question there actually. It's not that I don't want to use someone else's terms because sometimes you have to because that helps understanding to us. So sometimes you have to, But I think you don't wanna be too jargon-heavy, you know, from both sides. I just don't think, I think that can complicate a conversation. I do think there is merit in just speaking plain English sometimes, you know, like, you know, um, you know, like for example, CapEx or, uh, EBITDA or the terms like that. I mean, I think sometimes you just wanna generally talk about if you are helping the profit, if you are, um, you've got engaged customers or you just gotta admit there's attrition. I just think sometimes, Simplifying it just makes it real. And I think in the end we are people, you know, and we can relate to that. So it's a relatability element really more than it is, you know, not wanting to use someone else's business terms.

Yeah. But I, so one of the things that I think is important, and we've, I probably talked about this ad nauseam too, is like, I do think it's important to understand those people, which requires effort in spending time and Probably asking a lot of questions, right? Um, I mean, I know I've learned a lot from doing that, like working with people, and then it helps me when I go to them. I think part of it is it just looks like you're making an effort to understand, right?

Agreed.

Is a big part of building that trust, trusted relationship. I mean, what's your take on that? Like, is it how important, how much time do you spend doing that versus trying to explain what marketing does?

I don't think I do as much explaining as I do listening. It's just the nature of it. I think the more I understand what somebody understands, let's put it that way, the better I am delivering what I need to deliver, what I need to say. Because if you understand where they're starting, what their baseline is, what they're interested in, you kind of find the solution. And I think there's a lot to be said in body language and tone. Obviously, you're both coming together to solve something. So, I mean, I enjoy doing this with the finance, for example, because what they're interested in, their perception of marketing is probably a bit low, I suppose, versus what marketing sees itself. And, but when they appreciate what you're trying to do and you can see where they're coming from, you find yourself kind of warming to one another and you kind of arrive at this middle ground and you collaborate. So you do that by understanding them because they are dealing with difficult numbers all the time. It's the whole point of their job. And you're coming to the table with Let's just say with brand, customer, lots of feelings and intangible elements, put it that way. We know how to quantify them, but that engagement with the CFO, for example, wouldn't be the time to go, well, you know, here's the value marketing brings, you know? So understanding them does help the conversation flow better for sure. I absolutely agree with you.

Yeah. I mean, I think, I don't think, I think I want to emphasize your point about listening because I think that is an underrated skill. Yeah.

It's not easy. It's actually not an easy skill. It's not easy because you want to reply all the time, don't you? Yeah.

I cannot tell you how many times in my career I've been told you interrupt a lot, Michael. It's like, it's partially because I'm not listening. And I, and I, like, actually doing this has really helped me develop better listening skills.

Yeah. Imagine. Yeah.

Well, and it's, and I should know this, like, for a short period of my time, I was in sales and I remember going through some training and it still sits with me when I hear people talk about salespeople, especially marketers who want to discount what they do. And when I think about the best salespeople I've worked with, whether they're in my organization or they were selling to me, they're really, really good at asking good questions and then listening, actively listening, And when I heard that, I was like, no, these salespeople, all they want to do is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right? But it's not what they, like, the best ones don't do that.

Absolutely.

I agree with you. Yeah. And I think we could all learn that because it's, to some degree, we're all selling a little bit, right? Well, we are.

We really are. I mean, marketing and sales back in the day was all one thing. It just, and it was communication. It was that simple. And if you've got the gift of the gab, especially if you know what you're talking about, it will flow. It's natural. I've done that myself. And then the customer's kind of going, I'm getting a bit bored here. You're just talking at me. So yeah, I think learning to ask better questions and just to deduce what you need to know is obviously the way forward.

Yeah. So something we've talked about in, you and I talked about this, I think before, and I've talked about it on the show, other episodes, like how important do you think, or how valuable and important do you think it is for people to spend time with people in other parts of the organization to understand their roles? Like, so sales, customer support or success, maybe even finance. What's your take on that?

I think it should be mandatory that people rotate. I think we would all be so much better at collaborating if we did that. Once you walk in someone else's shoes, you really do go, oh, okay. Oh, when I do this or say that, I'm not really paying attention to this and that on their end. So I do think it helps. And the reason why I appreciate it is because I've done a bit of BD, a bit of sales, a bit of customer service, you know, in my younger years.

Yeah.

And it's changed my perspective. And just recently I did it again. I thought, let me step outside and just kind of see things. And I was like, oh, okay. Some of the advice we give doesn't really work. It's not actually gonna work. So let's be more practical. And I think it strengthens your relationship. With the people you're trying to help in your organization. So I really think it should be mandatory. It would make things work a lot smoother.

Okay. Well, so, no, I totally agree. And I think my short time in sales completely 180 degrees changed my view of the role, right? And I think it's, and then I've worked at organizations that it was more or less mandatory to at least spend a day twice a year with somebody in, people in another organization. And I got value out of that, like working with production people. It was like actually producing whatever we were delivering, as well as customer support, sales, finance. I mean, I think it's a really valuable thing. I was actually disappointed when they kind of removed that as a requirement. 'Cause it felt like a burden when the people would be spending time with us, right? And I had to like, I had to check myself. We go, yeah. So, well, okay, so let's maybe dial this back as kind of wrap up here. So if you could give a couple of key points to the, to our audience who are mostly ops people, what are some things that you would recommend that they do to try to help elevate Not only the ops function, but marketing in general to the rest of their organization?

I definitely think communication is part of it. I think instead of expecting anybody you engage with really to understand marketing, don't start there, would be what I wanna really say. I would say understand where they are from and then lure them in, attract them, and use metaphors and ways to explain things. So simplify. your understanding of marketing so that they can meet you there. I do think that's really important. I think it is our job to educate non-marketing professionals, but we're not gonna do it by literally teaching them marketing per se. It's more like find a way for them to appreciate something so they can trust you further. And to the point on rotation, I do think it's really helpful. I think if you were to step in someone else's shoes, including finance, that was a difficult one, I imagine. I would probably be terrified in the finance department, but I think it's worth, yeah, I mean, I'm not a numbers person like that. You know, I like my creativity and communication, all those things. But I think if you were to appreciate where they're coming from, you can appreciate the pushback and you can appreciate what they need from you. So it's just been able to do that.

I mean, I recommend, um, like in my coaching with new managers who are maybe managing a budget for the first time or have responsibility for pitching new projects or ideas internally to go spend time with your finance partner or your CFO, depending on the organization. Because if you get them on your side, makes like, essentially they're the ones who are going to, everyone's going to look to them and go like, does this make sense financially before we invest time and effort and money? And I think it's well worth it. I encourage all the people I coach who are in there. In fact, all the people who've ever worked for me over the 10, 15 years, 20 years, I feel like learn the basics of finance. Yeah. You will never regret it.

That's exactly it. Yeah.

So it's maybe less obvious. And for those people who are not numbers, I'm more numbers oriented. I was trained as an engineer, so it becomes a little more natural for me.

Yeah.

And so, but even so, right, there's a different way that they think about numbers than we even do in marketing or in engineering. I mean, it's just a very, it's a different mindset. And to your point, right, if you understand how they think about the numbers, it will help you in how you build your case and represent your numbers when you're trying to, especially if you're trying to get investment.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, Michael, I, when I wrote the title for this book, it was different at the beginning all the way through. And right towards the end, I was like, ah, I feel like I need to change it. And I went back to movement because every, all the material was pointing towards that. And I think what's really dawned on me now is you need to be able to move things forward and to actually be able to report impact and progress and all those things. And if you're getting stuck, and I think marketing professionals do, or teams get stuck very often, it does happen. It's easy to get stuck in your space. I think you have to ask yourself an honest question, go, am I moving things forward? Am I helping? Am I creating impact? So I think it's really important to always ask yourself that. Because it probably means you'll be growing, you'll be out of your comfort zone and you'll be going, all right, I'm wasting time here. What could I be really doing that would move the needle or would help somebody? So, I do think having the mentality that movement inspires progress is probably really helpful for a creative team.

Yeah. And I think one of the things I see from a lot of marketers when they get annoyed, like, oh, these people don't understand, is like sometimes the questions and the push, the pressure you're feeling from them are actually reasonable kinds of things, right? Because of their perspective, right? Are you moving the business forward? I think that's a great way of thinking about it, right? And kind of checking, you're like, am I really doing that? Love it.

Thanks.

Anyway, well, Sheryl, this has been a fun conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I think this is going to help a lot of people. If folks want to learn more about the book or what you're doing or to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to do that with you?

You can go straight to my website, themarketing-movement.com.

All my details are there. Fantastic. Love it. Appreciate it. Again, thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun. Thanks for those who are listening or watching, and we appreciate your support. If you have ideas for topics or guests or you want to be a guest, You can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling. Till next time. Bye everybody.

Bye-bye.

Thanks.