Cargo Vans and $10/Gallon Fuel! Growing a Landscape Business in the Netherlands | RoundUP ep20

Hey, everyone, it's Mike Andes, and you're listening to the landscape business course. Today is another episode of the Roundup podcast where we're going to interview another landscape and lawn care professional. And I hope it's something that you can gain tips, advice and tricks to grow your business. Here we go.

Let's go.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Roundup where we interview landscapers. And we all want to grow our businesses. We all want to learn, and these tips and advice come from other landscapers. Extremely valuable. Today's a really special episode. It's our first time, I think we've gone international outside of North America for Roundup. And today we're actually going to the Netherlands. And John from there is going to be helping me. You notice I said there because I'm not going to try to pronounce the name of his business. And if you want to check out his website, I'm actually going to show it to you right now. This is it. So just to prove that we are actually talking about, you know, Dutch, so I cannot read this. You know, for all I know, this is usually what we use for placeholder text on websites when we're trying to design them. So. But it's really going to be beneficial, I think, because as it is with all businesses, I believe that looking at other industries and demographics and countries and seeing if they might be extreme in a certain direction, where the opportunities that are created when hiring in the labor market is a certain way, what happens when gas prices are way more expensive? These are the things we're going to be talking about today in a very competitive market, like John is in, in the Netherlands, in a market where literally the cost of gas is €8 plus per gallon, this is the type of thing that is going to refine and make systems that we might not even be thinking about in the United States, Canada or abroad. So, really looking forward to today's episode. Let's go ahead and bring John in. And, John, thanks so much for coming on, brother. I appreciate it.

Thank you very much, man. Thanks for having me.

Cool. So maybe, maybe explain a little bit kind of how you got into landscaping, because it wasn't necessarily the thing that you did. Like, myself, for a lot of people from really young age, what were you planning to do? Where'd you go to college and kind of how did you fall into landscaping industry?

Well, the thing is.

I was born in Canada and I was born in Smithers, if you're north of that. And 1982, my parents, they moved in 1990. 7. From the Netherlands to Smithers. My dad was a teacher.

British Columbia. That's in British Columbia, correct?

Right, right, right, right, British Columbia, yeah. They moved there in 1997. So that's 14 years. In that time he had three. Do you see my fingers here? I only see my own fingers here. Okay. Three different, three different schools in about, we moved about 12 different times. I was really used to being in, in these renovations and old cracky houses because Christian education in the, in the 80s and in the 90s did not pay well. And especially, especially in Canada. That laid the foundation for my, for my, for my fascination for carpentry over the years. That went a bit to the background. My parents moved back in 93 and I went to college. Is that college when I was, when you're 12? Right up to my 16th, 17th, 18th. And after that I started to study human resource management. And that was going to be it. That was going to be the answer to all these big questions. And I started studying and I loved the study, especially the. I was really interested in.

Cultural changes in companies. And the thing is, 70% of the attempts to change a culture in a company don't succeed.

Right.

So you're up with that 30%. And I was really interested in.

What drives an organization to turn to a different culture. What are all these different steps and all these different things. Really interesting. Absolutely. Studied it for four years.

Well, except for the internships. I stopped with it. I lost my motivation. It wasn't the place I wanted to be at that moment.

I realized I would be in an office all day. And I think, okay, I think even that, like, pretty much scared me.

And besides that, I wasn't really busy with study. Do you have study clubs and things like that? I don't know. Yeah, frat clubs. I was really busy with that. That was my life. And I'm still profiting, profit, profiting, profiting from it today. Then in 2005, I got a mail from the board of our student club and.

They were looking for guides of cathedrals in Europe. That moment changed my life because I entered that. Well, I applied for it.

And I went to Florence and everybody wanted to go to Florence. And of course, I put my little name in the, in the hat too. And I went to Florence for about six weeks.

That, that, that's when I discovered when, when there was a study called art history. And I think that that was a. Well, that was the second best decision in my life to go study art history. So I did an art history master.

An architectural master, and after that I did a educational master. I started teaching and I was in the art world, very interesting world. I'm crazy about modern and contemporary art and Christian iconography and things like that. I still do different stuff in that region but 2019 I made the decision. My wife is. She has a company of her own. She is a graphic designer they work with. She has a couple of. They work the five of them. She's the owner of the company. I decided with her to. Well to be a stay at home dad.

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2017 we acquired a piece of ground here with almost 8,000 square meters. That's what is it? Times three. Wow. Yeah. 4ft 24, 25,000ft.

Wee small itty bitty little house on it. We're still living in that here and I have. Let's see where's the Charlie Vanisloose? Here it is. This is like.

That's a gift from a friend of my dad.

Skip forward was a stay at home dad for two years. We'll never regret that decision in my life. I'm 39 now.

And very very lucky and happy to have to have done that. The mothers on both sides. So my mother in law and my own mother they wanted to keep on visiting or visiting be with the kids on Friday so I had two days to play with. That's when I started to go to help a friend of mine in his landscaping business. It was. It was just a good way to re enter the workforce. And I didn't think a lot about it of was just like hey can you help me out? Of course. Cool. Fun. You know just. Just have fun and work hard and. Well that's, that's. That's what I like to do. From. From the first day on I was hooked. I just.

I did not know there was a job that everything I liked came together and I could even use the things I had learned in the past like human resource management, like art history, think about. Right. Garden design, think about drawing, think about texture and composition, all those kind of things and. And working outside. Of course. Right.

It all came together and.

I had that moment.

And that's. They say the quarter fell just that drop moments. Man, this is cool. Why don't I Start this myself. I did. I wasn't really first in the back of my head and then. And then it went. Went more to the front of it. I didn't really dare to. To tell it to my wife at first. Because who would want to be a landscaper if he has studied for 13 years in his life? Right. Not. Okay, you. I've invested a lot and I've gone through very deep. Well, emotional mental.

Right. Hurdles to accomplish that. You know, getting my master's degree, art history was. Was one of the. One of my bigger accomplishments in my life.

So it wasn't like, okay, I'm gonna tell the whole world this at this moment. Yeah, yeah. And then, well, officially 2020 I started and in the summer it picked up and then it went boom. Covid hit in and it was like I got launched.

At the beginning. You started with mostly larger projects and you know, you said, you know, very sizable hardscaping sounds like maybe even construction type style landscape projects. Tell us a little bit about that and how has that changed over the past even year? Do you like the large project still or do you like kind of the mid size? I know like, especially with project based work, we kind of usually find that niche of size in terms of revenue from a project that we kind of like the most. What is that size for you and why?

Yeah, well, the very first job I did was not the size you should start with when you begin. That was way too big. It was a super awesome job. It was. It ended up to be a 50,000 doll dollar job. Very expensive materials. I had like, we had cable booms going through the ground three feet deep with. With packs. The guy wanted everything. He wanted lighting in his. In everything. And he wanted all in his app and, and he wanted to do it inside too. I thought, dude, enjoy your garden. But.

It was really funny. It was really. There was a.

Yeah, okay. So that's where I started off. I did 60,000 in that year. But that one job was around 29 and a half. 30, 35. And I think it ended at 38 because do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Do you want to do it right? You know that. And so it went up and up and up.

That's where I started. So I started pretty atypical with a slightly too large job. But man, Olivia, I have learned. I learned so much in those eight, seven or eight weeks. It was. My brother helped me and my younger brother, he's 32 and he saw the birth of this thing and the chaos and mayhem that followed. No, the job went very well. The people were happy.

So just to make sure. But just inside the stress and the chaos in my head and it was really awesome to see. It was this.

Mega, intense internship like I knew from my younger years. Weeks of 100 years, $100 a week. And so. So that was. That was where I learned it. This year I'm doing actually the same revenue but with double the. Double the margin. How do you call that doubling? I'm doubling my. My profit. Right, right. So a bit atypical. I did. I did a very good amount of large jobs in that first year. Yeah. You know how it is with. Right. With hardscaping, the margins are not big. It's one and done.

But for me, that didn't really count because it felt for me as a new start. Right. So I wasn't busy with maximizing my profits or I was really finding out from, okay, do I like this job? Do I like being here every day shuffling dirt and.

Leveling?

So yeah, among with getting personnel, working with other guys. And that was new too.

Everything was new. That was just crazy.

On those, on those large projects, I think sometimes what I find is that burnout happens just because you are on the same job, same customer. You're hitting hurdle after hurdle on these bigger products. Especially when you start digging hardscape projects, etc. When you're on a product for seven, eight weeks and it is getting stressful, there are hurdles, there are unexpected things come up. What do you do now? What have you learned to kind of adjust to those things or just from a mental standpoint, be able to stay level when there are all these things being hurdled your way that are just unexpected?

Yeah, that's a really good question. Thank you. In the beginning, I didn't have oversight.

After that, I got a tip from a friend and a client.

Of mine to use Trello. Trello is an. It's an app to. You know, the principle of. How do you call it with us yellow things. You put a project and you put right.

What I think are you referring to like Kanban, like in stat, in progress versus completed versus yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I got that tip from him and that really improved the way to segment, compartment, compartize. How do you call it? Put it in pieces for myself, but also for the people, the guys that work for me. And it really put in perspective what is going to happen this morning, what is going to happen today? At least what is our goal today. And so that's. So that was the first big step to get.

Progress on how things go in real life. Right. How the project went, everything that had to be done during the day. Right. You know that, you know, the client comes outside and he sees something or he wants something extra. Okay. How do you manage that? You just. Right. You can use that app for that too. Right. That principle of making a project out of it, that was. I'll just name one. That was a big one.

Awesome.

Yeah.

One thing that I really want to kind of dig into and that is, you know, I've been in the Netherlands a couple times, so I kind of know a little bit about. Yeah. About the taxation, about labor laws, and in my mind how much it kind of does fragment our industry because it is so difficult to have full time employees with taxes, with certain labor restrictions, etc. And so I feel like it's led to a lot of. A lot of solo operators, a lot of smaller businesses instead of people getting as large as well as compounded by the fact that, you know, fuel in your area is like €8 a gallon equivalent, like $10, almost a gallon. Two things. One, how has it affected me in such a competitive market? I know that there's so many landscapers. And then second question, follow up to that is from a fuel perspective, how has that forced the business to change and the industry in the Netherlands to change because of those fuel prices?

Yeah. Geography is of course a big thing. Right. So right in. In a radius of about 10 miles, I have, we have about 150 to 200,000 people. Right. So that's okay. You're set, you're done. Then the second thing. Okay. The gas, Right. We can't afford driving in trucks. Of course. We have the Dodge and the Ram trucks here too. The 150s or the 250s mostly. That's insane.

The gas mileage on those things. Okay. It's way out of the scope of being ever being.

Able to make money. You should not buy. If I would tigranize my business, I would be out of business in no time.

Oh man, I love that guy. He's just so awesome.

So the thing is, cargo vans.

Cargo fans especially the bigger ones have a certain amount of vanish. You can use them as over. Right. As. As trailers and as.

As a place to store your. Your clippings. How do you call that? Yeah. So they're double. Right. Cargo vans. Just every landscaper has a cargo van here. At least that's the basic. Then you probably would have a truck with a dumping unit on it. And. And the, the double cab. That's really popular.

But by far, almost all the guys here, you know that Chuck with a truck, they have the cargo van with the trailer. This is open trailer.

And how do you differentiate yourself though? Because there are so many of those, Chuck, in a trucks or solo operators. And in a market where you probably, I would imagine, have to charge a premium because of the prices of fuel and all the rest of it. What are your labor rates and how do you compete with so many other operators that are similar size?

Okay, so it's really important to stay close to home, right. You really have to invest and treat it as a certain postcode postal code. Yeah. As your baby. If you want to. If you want to.

So that's one thing that's really important, right? The postal code being close by your.

Operational.

Right. Just pick a part of the city and go for it. That's one thing.

A second thing is the most of the guys I know.

They'Re doing this for five or 10 or 15 years even.

And they're the word of mouth type.

It's a bit Calvinistic too, right. Work hard and the work will come to you.

That is true. But as you say a lot, right. In your videos. Okay, respect it. But if you want to scale your business or.

Want to grow it.

You'Ll have to do a couple of certain other things and that's marketing and websites. And SEO is just as important here as there being fast.

You can be very fast here because just the vicinities are. It's a lot closer. I forgot your question a bit. Could you.

Yeah, the rate part. So because there's competition, does that put pressure on the rates and like in your market, what is those kind of generalized rates like here, for example, you know, a landscaping hardscaping company is probably going to 60 to $100 per hour. What does that look like for you in the Netherlands?

I'm experiencing actually the same as that you concluded. Well a couple of years ago. The prices are way too low. The most of the guy are they're content with earning not enough. So that's really strange. I can't make a difference on that side. But my own, my own fee is between, let's say.

For maintenance, 50 bucks, €50.

And for.

Construction, how do you call it? Hardscaping? 65 because of the liabilities and then a bit higher. I haven't reached the 70 or the 80 yet. No, no, I should. Yes, Mike. I should become more assertive and I'm working on it, man. I'm watching all your videos and.

There'S a reason I'm 39. Right. Because I waited for you for like, I don't know how just to post all those films.

And I've implemented it from day one. Thank you. Thank you very, very much for what you have did. I don't know if there are a lot of guys in the Netherlands that. Well, that follow your channel, but man.

What I have implemented in a year and a half for myself and for the guys that have worked for me.

I've mainly. Mainly. Yeah, I can, I can thank you for that. Yeah, yeah. Wages, it's not very high. So go ahead, go ahead.

And I know there are a lot of labor laws over there in terms of how much to pay and like just a lot. It's hard to fire people. How have you dealt with that? And has had your HR background and education been somewhat helpful in creating that culture of trust? Because I know I've talked to owners in the Netherlands before and that is actually a struggle with so much restrictions on how to hire, fire, etc.

First of all, there's a. There's a certain sequence of contracts you have to there there that takes place. If you finally end up with a full contract, that's two times half year, one times a year. And after that you'll have to take them in.

How do you call that? Foster Diemst, Full contract. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Theoretically, it's harder. The last couple of years it has become easier. The phenomenon of payroll.

They know specifically for the Netherlands has become very popular. It's not popular for people that work with payroll if they suddenly realize what it entice, what it really is because you get paid everything, all your comps and everything in one hour hourly rate. Right.

Okay, Mike, but listen, it's about moving in and up or out, right? You're talking about retaining. Also would not you want to retain one of your. The best guys you have?

So again, I think it's about taking a chance thinking and possibilities of career movement. So.

Invest money in them for courses that maybe even lie outside of your own profession. So the thing is, from day on you have to motivate them to grow, to go up.

To move through that organization and get into those leading jobs or get out.

Specifically service business targets on the. How do you call that? The inefficiencies of. The inefficiencies of a certain part of the labor market.

Between college studies and settling.

If I can say so.

We'Re capitalizing on that part. And you're both happy, the owner's happy and the people that come and Go are happy too. So you should see it as. Not specifically you, but you could see it as an employability puzzle. And in that perspective.

It'S not a problem at all. I don't find it a problem. I don't find it a problem to make a profit with these guys. With the guys that are younger of me, most of the time they earn even more than I do now. So that's pretty easy.

I don't find it a problem.

Keeping them. And most of the time.

They, they find something else at a certain age. So you're, you're speaking between the 18 or 19, like let's say 20, because 18 is a bit young. It's really physical. Right. 20 or 30. Right. Maybe even 28.

And how are you those individuals? Because they obviously don't have a lot of stuff skill. But yeah, it requires quite a bit of experience skill for the type of work that you're doing, which is more hardscape construction. What has that been like trying to take an 18, 19, 20 year old and make them into someone who's actually profitable in a construction style business?

Good question. The first year I was mainly active in construction. So yeah, I experienced what you're talking now. Really? You think everybody can hold a circular saw and cut, right. I, I don't know anything else but, but, but there are guys that have like they have the two saw horses here and they cut in the middle. It's just. Wow, it's fat. That's, that's fascinating. And, and they're like guys that I've studied too. Okay. So that's not possible, right? That in the back of your mind, dumbing it down, right. So I've done two things. I'm moving to maintenance now more so I'm shifting, right? Shifting from construction to maintenance. That's what I'm going to build this year. And I immediately see. And dumb it down. Right. So moving to maintenance, dumbing it down. Then the guys that come through those channels.

Suddenly can do the job they're required to do the first of the half year. I had my brother and I had a guy, he was. Yeah, he could do electrical things because we do drainage too. But a lot of sawing through Douglas.

And he was pretty handy. So I was lucky with that.

Okay. You can't scale a business very easy with building per class and construction things. So I'm going to shift more to maintenance.

Down on the project side, when you say dumbing it down, what does that mean? Does it mean like standardizing the type of materials you will install or willing to install? Is it just smaller projects? Is it the type of equipment you use? What did you do to kind of dumb down? So instead of working a $50,000 job that, you know, bogs an employee down and it requires a bunch of skill, you. You can dumb it down and have other employees join the team.

It's what you present to the customer as being the option.

The, the thing is, the curious thing about maintenance or construction, you want a satisfied and happy customer.

It's not about building. It's not about building patios. It's not about maintaining beds or mowing lawns. You want a happy customer that comes back.

And that was a very big realization for me.

Because I come from a very creative family.

That creativity was the norm. And that was like, okay, creative, that's not even enough. You have to up it. So the level of creativity I was used to was really high. The most of people are like, pretty much lower than that. And most of the people were even lower than that. Like, they wanted a patio with pinkish stones. Okay, so reduce your materials to two or three.

Use materials that have the consistent, consistent, consistent appearance.

Use a supplier that uses supplier for your materials that you know. Because that guy, when you call him, he says, hey, John, and he knows you and he can deliver the next day because he knows you're gonna order next week again, Right. Deliver with make, make. Introduce yourself to suppliers. That's really important because they can help you a lot. They say, okay, this is the choice. But this is what people do. This is what people like.

Make a map. This is what you told me, right? So this is not new. Make a materials list and put it in those plastic folders. Just go through it. Limit the amount of choices and try to examine where you can get them really happy. Because I'm very convinced. They have to have a feeling you're giving them something.

Somehow, Somehow somewhere. You have to be there. They have to have that experience of, wow, he even did this. That's. That's when the word service or that's when the capital S comes on the. On the word service.

And that's what I really. And yeah, that's where I really.

Yeah, that was really. That was what I. How do you call that? Awareness. Yeah, yeah. Became aware of. Yeah.

And as you've moved into maintenance, is the main driver behind that the ability to even step it back even more, the level of skill that's required to bring on new employees? Is that the main reason or. Absolutely reason also?

Yeah. Profitability and just, I think in general I think it's just a good idea.

It's a good idea. Even if I wouldn't have that scalability thing, it would be a good idea. So I would have to like it or step out. That's where I'm at now. Make something. Because I'm not a maintenance guy. I just love big things, big machines. Okay. I just, just like the rest. The maintenance doesn't have that appealment when you're starting right now. I did a beautiful job today. Okay. I just said before the show, I said to you, okay, that was a guesstimation gone wrong.

That was a typical example of a very large garden with a really good profit. I had to go back to the customer and say, hey, it really was way more than I expected.

I think we're. I think I have, I have to. I have to charge you a couple of extra hours. I don't think it's. I don't think it's a big problem, but we'll see. So, yeah, it was a profitability. Profitability I can make you. You make. The margins you sketch are no different here than there. I think 30, 35, if you're really good, you'll get 40% on the construction.

Side of it. You can easily get to 60 when you're in maintenance. Yeah.

And also to just looking at really the creativity aspect. I think a lot of times people getting into construction or hardscaping, they really enjoy the creativity. The designs. They get 3D designs on software and all the rest of it. How. What was it that kind of pushed you from creativity? Like, hey, I gotta run a business here that's profitable, that I can scale, that I can have employees, like, because I know that's a big thing. Like myself, I used to do painting and pottery and I'm a pretty creative person. And shifting that mindset to like, yes, I want to. Like, we used to install paver patios a lot and you know, artificial turf and putting greens and like shifting from that creative mindset and do like, hey, I've got to run a business here that is successful and creative. Great. But it's more of a sidelined issue. Was that tough for you and was it almost hard to convince yourself and your wife that like, we're going to take it in a different direction?

Yeah, yeah. My wife isn't really involved in these kind of decisions. It was a bit. Yeah, it's a bit. It can be a bit tough.

If you see maintenance as.

If it were lacking things that construction has.

Especially the volumeness of it, the materiality.

The Weights that.

Working with something that is already prefabricated. Right. A board is actually a composition of a certain. It's actually an offer to build something straight. Right.

Bed maintenance or lawn care is something more organic. It has to do something more. It has to do more with tempo. It has to do with.

It has to do with different things. And I think for me it.

I'm really. I'm really turning around now. And for me, it has to do about profitability, no doubt.

But I think.

If you're more business minded.

There are so much fun things to find out what works or what not.

And having a bookkeeper, for example, that can show you certain numbers from time to time and give you coaching, man, coaching is so. It's so important. It's so good.

Everybody says that. Like these epiphany videos from Brian Fullerton or Keith Galfens or whatever. Like suddenly they discover the phenomenon of coaching. Well, it's true. It's absolutely true. Because for good advice, you have to pay.

Except for you, Mike. Except for you. But for good advice.

You have to pay. It's so worthful what you do, by the way. Absolutely. It's so worthful to hear from somebody.

About, okay, listen, if you want to have this goal, how are you gonna. How are you gonna achieve that goal? What do you need for that? Yeah, first it was hard, but now I'm loving it even more. Transition to maintenance.

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Last question I had for you, John, is kind of similar you talked about in your story of you go into School for 13 years and then basically what some would say, throw that away and go into lawn care and landscaping. And even now, some of people would say, well, now you're even going. You're dumbing it down even now. Yes, I kind of dealt with some of some of that when I was. Went from medical school and I spent so many years into lawn care, landscaping. How did you deal with that pressure? Whether it be from family or peers or professors or even potentially your spouse and, you know, personal family, close family. How did you deal with that? And knowing that, hey, this is what I want to do and this is. I'm going to dedicate my life to this.

Yeah, well, somebody that really loves you can. Can see the conviction in your eyes. If you have it, then they're not. Then like, it Goes from doubt to certainty really fast.

In the first couple of months, I was really excusing myself a lot like, yeah, okay, we'll see. And you know, stuff like that.

And I have not really experienced somebody saying.

Oh, that's a dumb decision.

Of course there are certain stigmas about landscaping here too.

But I felt the obligation to often, you know, to say why and like, long story and stuff like that.

But people that, the people that care about you, they're not busy with those facts.

Especially the people that look up to you.

That are like, first of all, the people that look up to you or see you as something ominous or whatever, they ask the most questions. And.

So that transition has been pretty, pretty good. I'm really happy with it. It's. I think the personal side of it was harder than the people that. Outside of me. Yeah.

And was that realization, like when you say that internally, was it just you judging yourself and feeling like you weren't taking advantage of all that you'd been taught or like you're settling, like, what was that internal dialogue with yourself to convince yourself that this was the right move?

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think a lot of it. I noticed. Okay. I can use a certain amount of knowledge I've gathered the last 13 years.

It also comes forward in. I love sales, by the way. So I'm really on the sales side of things.

That, that works really good. That just my. The way I am. I'm just going to say it like that.

I just notice I can really sell something really good and that's a kind of a thing. I could never use that Human resource management or art history. Art history. No, no, no. And suddenly you're in this business world and you could use something. You have never really o student jobs and you know that, that phone call work and stuff like that.

But. And suddenly you notice, hey, this is cool.

These are things I like to do and they're, they're suddenly relevant and man, they, they. I can earn money with this.

So.

Right now I think it is. You get. How do you. How do you call it? And that's. They say you get the clients you deserve. Right.

So you will get the clients you deserve given your, your personality and what, what kind of spin you give to it.

And yes, I noticed that too. I, I would have a, for, for a landscaper to 500 meters away. I would have a way different.

Way different customer base than, than he does. Yeah. Yeah. So happy. Yeah.

Good. For those, for those of you that might be from Europe or from the. The Netherlands, maybe You could give the actual name of your website. Usually I say, hey, if someone wants to contact you, reach out on your website, but I'm not about to try to approach the name. So you say it in Dutch or however someone locally would potentially be able to pronounce. And then if they want to reach out, they're more than welcome.

So just a little bit in Dutch. One minute.

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Okay. Hey, Jonas. As you, Lil Strana. Mike Andy's landscaping business trial.

Super into something.

Landscape business course in Yanari. That's our little tough side.

And.

Thank you very much for all I know. For all I know you've heard saying all sorts of bad things about me.

Coming on. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you too, man. It was awesome. I'm just a huge fan of you.

Thanks so much for tuning in today to another episode of Roundup. If that was something interesting to you and you learned something, comment below, share the message with other landscapers so we as a community can come together and learn and grow our businesses. If you would like to be on the Roundup show and actually interview with me just like we did today, feel free to go in the description. There's a link there. Fill out the form and we'd love to talk to you if you are wanting to share with the industry and help other people grow their business. Thank you so much. I'll see you next episode.