He Painted His Lawn Care Truck PINK! Landscape Business Coaching Call

Hey everyone, it's Mike from Landscape Business Course and today we are going to be having another one on one consulting call. Big thanks to Josh for putting these out on Thanksgiving weekend for all of us as you're at home probably on a food hangover of all the food you've been eating at home on this cold, dreary Thanksgiving weekend. But big thank you to Josh for posting these up here. So this is another consulting call again, if you would like to get a consulting call in the description below, you can book a 45 minute Zoom call with me and occasionally a couple of these I will be able to use publicly and then the owners are gracious enough to allow me to share this with all of you. So big thank you to Ding King today from Full Circle Landscaping. He's actually his second consulting call he's had with me. And you probably remember a couple months ago he was on here, he's the guy with the pink truck. Well, now he's painted the truck pink and so great to see him implementing so many things we've talked about. He's actually started implementing P4P pay for performance. And so I'm going to be able to include the whole talk, besides just a little part of it that I want to keep special for our conference in January. So if you haven't already, make sure you sign up landscape businesscourse.com conference. And again, it's virtual, so you don't have to travel here, you don't have to get a hotel. But I really recommend you come live. We're gonna do it via Zoom so we can see each other and do a lot of Q and A. And I really, really look forward to it. The content that I've been able to add even more so because of it being virtual and there's just less distractions, less questions. And so I'm gonna make sure there's a lot of content. So I've added, I think now, three keynotes that we weren't planning on before. Really looking forward to that. So without any further delay, let's go right into this call with Dean King. He did about 150,000 in revenue. I'm doing this off the top of my head. He did about 150,000 revenue this year. He was planning to do about 350,000 next year in revenue. He's made some big changes to his business and he wants to take it to the next level when it comes to marketing, organization and pricing so that P4P works without any further delay. Let's roll Dean King.

3 what's up, brother?

Yo, what's going on? How are you?

Good. Did you embrace the pink?

I did. I got the beanie and. Yo, I don't. I can show you a picture of it. I painted, painted one of the trucks pink. Went all in.

Oh, really? Oh, let's go.

Yeah. So the new. I got another F150, a little two wheel drive and painted it pink. So that's.

Cool.

Good stuff.

Yeah, it's. It's good.

How's.

How's everything been?

Good. Good. We've been drowning here in the Pacific Northwest. It's raining.

We had the closure. So technically the gym is supposed to be closed, but we kind of are flying on the radar right now.

Dude, it's so tough. I don't have a good picture, but that's, I guess, kind of a hard picture. It just hit rolling away, but yeah, it's getting loaded up on Friday. I'm going to try out the reflective stuff. I don't know how that's going to work, but can let it out. Such a. Be cool.

I would recommend putting green on it. Yeah, I would recommend if you can do a black outline on your green lettering because if you don't, it will. It won't stand off the pink enough.

Yeah, we learned this hard the hard way with the yellow, but it'd be the same way with your pink.

Okay.

So if you just do a thin outline of black on your green, people looking at won't even tell that you have a black outline.

But it's. Whatever it is. Yeah.

It'll make it pop off the. A lot better.

See, that's huge because it's. I would be so pissed if I got it. And I was like, those letters look mud.

You just, you just can't see it. Like if it just blends in too much. Especially when you get like about 100ft away. Whereas especially with the way that you're doing the full circle, like the whole basic what we do. It looks so much better if you saw a little black outline on it. It looks so much better.

Perfect. Awesome. Thank you. So I have not as many specific questions. I think last time I had about a thousand very pointed questions about all these different topics.

Yep.

So I had a couple of those. But then I really just wanted to talk about like, I guess you can't see my hands like marketing, which was like pretty huge because. Just marketing, but the actual like straight up numbers behind like Facebook and Google and then like next door that you guys kind of hit and then how you document field proceed like document field procedures, I guess what I wrote. But like, as in what my employees at least said, and this is what they really wanted me to ask you is when I. Because now I have three. Three full time, so. But I'll show up to a job. Like, I record videos and stuff, but a lot of times I'll show up, be like, hey, why don't you try doing it this way? And they're like, dude, like that just. We just hit. We just beat budgeted hours because you told us how to do it. But, like, when we thought about it, we tried to think of the best way to do it. Because they want to beat budgeted hours, too. Because they want people now, but they can't think, like, having trouble, like, coming up with the best way to do a job where I just go there. I'm like, oh, obviously you do this. And they're like, well, how did you know that? And I'm like, I don't know.

I just.

I just know it. So I don't know how to show that to them. And then, last thing is, whenever they're on P4P, yeah, they're a hundred percent. Not a hundred percent P4P, but they're on. Well, they're on P4P the same way your guys are. So their base rates 14 an hour. And this is something else to kind of touch on. But they're getting 28% of revenue. And we'll go over. I guess we can talk about that and we can kind of hit that because I had a couple other questions to ask you before you go to those bigger ones. But basically, just is it just so you know, is 28 good? Or should I raise it?

But okay, we'll come back.

I figured it's better to start low.

Yeah, we'll come back on that one. So in terms of. Was the first part of that question. Sorry, I had what I'm gonna say.

The stock, the field stuff, or the marketing field stuff.

There you go. So in terms of field stuff, two things. Number one, when they ask you those things, like, you know what I should do? Is that, like, around landscaping and hardscaping stuff, or is that just mowing in general? Or what is mowing?

So, like, mowing and like, I call them cookie cutters. But, like, the. Cause there's a lot of houses that are the same mowing and cookie cutter cleanups.

They got those.

They can just do them. It's easy. But on any of the higher touch jobs, any ones that take like a full day and I'll record A video about how I would do it, but it doesn't hit home until I actually show up. And I'm like, hey, I show them like here's where I go to this and do that. And they're like, oh, well, that just saved us an hour. Like, that was awesome. We were doing it this way and it was taking an extra 10 minutes every time and adds up.

Could you show that sort of thing on the video? Is it something you don't really even think about?

It's. I think I could show it better on the videos, but I'm just having trouble getting the videos out to. Out to them, but getting the videos, making a good system for it. Because some of my send over cat, like they're all on my phone, but I don't know how to. How do you categorize them and then send them out? And I know you guys send out WhatsApp, but what's the exact way you guys actually get the videos out? So it's already there for the job. So when they just show up, they can just find it instead of getting there and texting me, being like, hey Dean, where's the video? I'm like, oh my God, I'm an idiot. I estimated a week ago and I now have to scroll through and find it.

So yeah, so what we do is when an estimator goes to a property, as soon as they take the video, they're uploading it to WhatsApp. Now you could use YouTube, you could just put it in your phone. But the main thing is to categorize it by the name of the customer. So just we just do first last name and then that goes into WhatsApp. And literally if you made a WhatsApp group for yourself, you could do the same thing. Like literally just call it estimates, call it a group, and then you're the only person in it. And. And then that way they're all in there. And then when someone's going to a job the night before, they basically get the video and you can just search for the name of the customer. And so usually I say like your video, you would rather be too long and too in detail than not, right? So even like explaining how where they should park, where they should put equipment, where they should like and thinking the whole job through for them. Like I've done videos back when I was doing estimate that were 10, 12 minutes long. But I didn't have to show up the job because I literally was like, okay, day one, day two, day three, and walk them through like where they're going to park things, like, everything, right? But obviously, there's things that do come up in that because of your experience, you will have those, you know, advantages. The main thing is that they're on P4P and they're actually wanting to figure those things out because they should be trying to find those better ways online, right? Like YouTubing the type of material that they're installing, the YouTubing the type of tree they're installing. But really, at the end of the day, the more you can simplify the services, the less that will happen, right? The less they'll have to figure things out and the less they will have to ask you is because you can simplify the number of services that you do and the type of materials that you install to the point where you can basically take a day and get someone up to speed with you very, very quickly. In terms of training, what gets difficult is when they have, you know, you got to teach them drainage, then you got to teach them how to drive skid steers, Then you got to drive, you know, teach, you know, trucks and dump trucks and excavators and patios. Whereas if you can just like, like, reduce those things and simplify them, it's a lot easier. So, for example, for us, when it comes to hardscaping, like I said, mowing is pretty simple. Property cleanups, they get most of that on the job in a sequential kind of manner. But when it comes to hardscaping, we have, okay, we install flagstone patios, we install one type of paver patio and one type of block, right? So literally, in about half a day, they get taught that, and at least they have it down once. And then, because that's the only thing that we do, they see it so much that they eventually very quickly become very efficient at it. And it's very easy for people who have been around for a little bit of time just to teach the next person, right? So I think simplification of services is huge. And then your video detail is important, too.

Okay, that's awesome. Yeah, the video detail is huge. I didn't actually think to just make them longer. I'll just make them long, just make longer videos. Because, I mean, the one. The one guy is with me has been with me since I started almost, but so he's kind of got it down. But then I have the one girl I hired, basically, after I talked to you last time, and then hired another girl employee, because I have good luck with the girls, right?

Yeah.

That might be part of it. I don't know yet.

Start a pink company now.

Yeah, I got all the girl employees.

Yeah.

So.

Oh yeah. But so the girl, one of the girls has only been with me for a couple weeks, maybe a month now. But she's all trained up and do the simple services are amazing. Like, we're not. I just. Because I used to do like just accept estimates. I'm like, oh, it's just a little bit dirty. You know, we could just do it. But like she just goes out and she just knows what to do every day and it's awesome. So that's a great point of just, even, even further just being like, hey, like, we're not going to do these like, Matt, like not the massive cleanups, but not these massive, super intricate cleanups. Like we're going to call in a tree guy to come cut down this limb so I don't have to be there to cut down the stupid tree limb.

Like. Yeah, yeah. Like the. Especially as you grow, it just compounds in magnitude the amount of issues that begin to pour on you if you don't simplify. So I do it now. And especially when you're growing so much. It's not like by cutting out services or reducing the options that you do for landscaping. Like, do you. Do you guys do patios and stuff like that? Like walls? Will you. No. Okay.

So we're doing some this winter just because. To fill in the schedule. But like, and just for fun for me because I was wanted to. But so I have two. Two patios lined up for one where basically one's for my dad's construction company that I was like, hey, dad let me do a patio. And he was like, no, no. And then he was like, yes. And I was like, yeah. And then once for my house, convince my mom which. So that's cool. But so yeah, that's. That's an awesome tip for that. So thank you. And then can I ask you a couple of the basic questions I had that are like two second responses?

Yep.

Oh, one thing. Thank you for telling me happy birthday. That was awesome that you remember. So thank you for that. And then I was so mad the other day. Audible canceled Audible business. You can't sign up as a new member.

Yeah.

So what would you do? Like, I want to give like I was really excited to give that to my people. But like, what do you do now?

Just make a personal account. So like name it full circle teammail.com. make a personal account, buy all them in there and then just give the username and password to everyone. The only issue with that is if people are listening to the same book, they can mess each other up, but it does have a warning that pops up and says, like, do you want to skip to your next spot? They just have to click no, or else they'll mess up everyone listening to the book. But you could technically, if you have a big issue, you could say, hey, look, if you want a book, just, like, put it on the whiteboard. And that way we watch at the same time. But, okay, we have it for all our guys, and it's rarely an issue.

Okay, awesome. That's way easier than what I was gonna.

Technically, probably not legal, but.

It works. I'm paying for the book still. It's. Whatever. It works. So here's a question that's kind of huge for me right now, which I'm having trouble with is, like. Which is weird for me, I think, But I'm having trouble sending estimates that are high dollar figures because I'm not confident in my hourly rate because. So I'm charging just, you know, I'm charging right now like, 75 an hour for the cookie cutter cleanups and then 60 an hour for our every day run. Like, for our bigger cleanups. The ones that take like that we're going to be there for at least. At least a half a day are getting, like, anywhere between 60 and 65 an hour. I'll just usually make them give it. Just estimate higher so the guys make more because the bigger ones kind of suck to do, but so I'm just having trouble with that. And how do you find your hourly rate? How do you know that it's good? Because I had one of my buddies I just became friends with who does a lot of work in the same areas I do. He was just kind of giving me some coaching, and he was like, oh, yeah? Yeah. So you're new. And I'm charging like 45 an hour right now. And it took me a while to get there, so you should be like, 30. And I'm like, bro, I'm at 60 and I'm getting work. Like, I'm. I just. I had to hire another person because I'm so booked out. Like.

Yeah.

So what do you do with that?

Well, first of all, in terms of staying busy as long as you're staying really busy, that you know that you're not charging too much. Right. So I've always found that booking yourself out breeds confidence. Right? So, like, if you book yourself out four weeks, like, okay, I know I have work. Let's raise my prices. Right now, the Opposite happens. And that is when you start losing work or you don't have as much work, that's when you start second guessing yourself. And that's why a lot of people second guess themselves in the winter is you go like, oh man, like, I only have a couple of days worth of work and so like, I should lower my price. It's like, maybe for the winter, but like, that does not mean you're overpriced. It just means that you're slowing down a bit. Right. So, but definitely, if you're booking out, that's when you know, keep raising your prices. Right? That's just going to mean that you're going to inhibit growth. Right. Like if you kept your prices the same, all other things create equal are going to be. You're going to have a higher close ratio. Right? Yeah. So I would look at it though from a perspective because you have P4P, it's very easy to know this. And that is at 28% revenue, what are your guys making per hour? Like actually making.

Actually making. So I give them a bunch of extra for cleanups. But actually, if it was just up to them making money, they would like if you ran by day because. Just because by pay period, they make 14 every pay period.

Right.

Which I can tell you why. But basically, if you run it by day, the days that they actually make P4P, they're making about 16 an hour. But the problem is that, and this is another issue that you can't help me with this, but it's something I have to work on. It's just estimating is I thought I was a great estimator until I started giving my guys P4P. And then the one job, the one job in two weeks that I mess up, they're not mad at me, but they're like, yeah, this job just sucks. And they're like, they're like not being like to my face, like, you stink. But they're being like, yeah, it just stinks so bad that this job ruined my P4P. I'm like, but so that just happened. That just happens. Like today was the one job and there was one probably two weeks ago, but that it was pine needles, which I don't even know what to do for those, but pine needles. And it took them double the amount of time and they're not even done yet. So they'll probably have another two hours tomorrow. And then that's when I just mainly go in and give it to them. Because I'm like, that's on me.

That's not on you, but yeah, yeah. So two things we'll come back to the P4P thing, but in terms of strictly a number standpoint, like a very much of a rule of thumb, like it's not, you know, in concrete, is the fact that if you multiply your base rate by 4, you need to be above that in your rate to the customer. Right. So $14 per hour, you need to be at least 56. Right. So I'm confident that you charging enough.

And I don't think you're way overpriced or anything like that. Do you charge an estimate fee?

Not yet.

Okay, that's fine. That's the reason though, why you're charging $75 per hour on those cleanups is because basically you're baking into the fact that like just the time of being there and all the rest of it, right. So down the road, if you ever wanted to standardize it, that's how you kind of take out those small cleanups and little like two hour things is by having an estimate fee. So just keep that in the back of your mind. And the only reason that's important is because again, for P4P, for the employees to understand, the more simple that is, the better. And there's just one rate. It just makes a lot more sense to them.

Okay. Yeah. For like an estimated down the road kind of thing.

I mean, just.

Oh, for P4P. So they're not getting 75 on some and 60 on others. You want to make it standard. Okay.

At all possible. Right. Like, so we do two split like you just mentioned, but we do one for lawn care, one for landscaping. Very, very simple. Like if you're not mowing, you're making this. Right. And so that it's a little more simple, whereas it's like just the size of the job or what you determine, it makes a little bit more difficult for them in terms of P4P. Explain to me why they're hitting 14 and then you add in money manually. What's going on there?

Oh, man. So what's going on there is basically that wasted time on my end. As in like not me not being ready. Cause I'm pretty as far as like getting stuff out into them. Either me over talking at meetings, which I fixed this probably last week. I was talking to them for an hour. I'm like, this is awesome. They're talking back, they're like, we're going. And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh, wait, that wasn't.

Oh.

And they're a P for P. So then they were like, they weren't mad at me because they didn't get it. Then once they kind of started to pick up on it, they're like, all right, dude, like, I want to like, let's go. So there's that, right? But the biggest reason I think they're hitting 14 is just my estimating is that's what it comes down to. And that's kind of why I'm hesitant about my price sometimes. Because, you know, you're like, oh, did I only get this job because I messed up my estimating?

And then you get.

You have nine others that accepted it. But so I get, I think it's just the confidence and so I think it's, we're fine as far as pricing. But I guess what it just comes down to is me messing up the estimating and then them hitting, they hit like. And that's why I'm kind of thinking about raising it up, raising the percentage up. Because they're hitting like anytime. Even on the bad weeks, they're hitting like 13, 8. Between like 138 and like 142 is. But on the bad weeks. So like, that's why I think about raising it. But my concern and the reason why I, because I was going to make it the same as you, just because I figured I might as well just copy everything you do instead of just almost all of it. But I was like, alright, well I could raise it, but then I have bigger equipment to pay for. So my justification without running a lot of numbers was if I have to pay for a zero turn like there, I guess it's a lot more money to take out of it. Like it's. You're only paying for push mowers and I have to pay it by zero returns and all the other bigger equipment that it's a lot bigger of an expenditure. So I don't want to overdo my P4P and not have enough money to buy the zero turns and stuff.

Stuff. Okay, okay. I got you saying okay, you know what I'm saying?

Just a higher expense for the business. And I don't want the business to like, I never wanted to go down. So I figured I'd start low and work my way up because then I feel like if you go down, it's bad.

What do you charge per hour for mowing?

75.

Got it. So at the end of the day, you got to remember that P4P is a function of time, right? So if you're going to give them bigger equipment, they should be getting Less time on the job. Right. So what that's going to basically equate to, if you wanted to, you know, fix that right away is by raising that dollar per hour target, saying, hey, look, instead of 75, I expect to be done, you know, sooner because Now I'm charging 80 per hour. I didn't change the customer's price. Let's say I'm charging $40 for a mow, right? At $75 per hour, that's gonna give them like 33 minutes to mow the lawn, for example. Right. Well, now I expect it done in 30 because I'm getting this bigger piece of equipment. And so that's why I would say.

Like, I think you could do 33%.

I think so too.

The bottom line is this. You don't actually see the benefits of P4P until two things happen. Number one, they're above P4P, like they're above base pay. And to you, do not meddle with that number ever.

Okay?

Okay. It is. If you're gonna play a P4P, that number can't be touched.

Okay. So I was taking a little bit of. When you're like, yeah, you can do a manual adjustment occasionally if this tiny thing happens. And I was like, manual adjustments for everybody.

So, okay, we've done a manual adjustment one time since converting the P4P, just one time. Okay. And that includes every single job. And that means that they've got to take some of the good and the bad, but we give them the 33% to make up for the bad. But you'll get better and better at the estimating process. You've already gotten better in terms of second guessing yourself. Like, oh, actually let me give them an extra hour for this, right? So I would highly recommend, like, give them 33%. But say, hey, look, if you're overnight job, that stinks for you, but you're gonna, there's gonna be opportunity for you to kill it, right? And just be like, look, we've gotta stick to the system. As we grow. We want each other to be efficient. I want you to be able to make more money. I hate that you're making $14 an hour. And so I'm gonna be raising, raising this 20% for them. Their wages are going up 20%, right? So I would really, really recommend doing that. Because until they're above base pay, I guarantee you their efficiency will go up from when you do, when you do that. Because they're actually now in performance dollars. You want them in performance dollars. If they're not if they're getting base, I can guarantee you P4P does nothing for you. And then what happens? It's just a self fulfilling prophecy because you're like, oh no, I did a bad estimate job. When in reality they just didn't work as hard as they could have because they knew they were going to hit base pay no matter what.

Okay, that's huge. So never metal with. Okay. Yeah.

When you raise it to 33% and they actually start making 15, $16 per hour, they will increase their productivity dramatically.

Okay. And when they know it's all them, and then I'm not going to touch it.

Yeah.

No matter what happens, even if. Whatever. So, okay, right now you're protecting way.

Too much downside, but you're not giving them enough upside. Right?

Yeah.

You're basically hedging the P4P thing by basically saying, look, I'm gonna give you a decent wage and then if you mess up, I'll make sure I give you a little bit more. But then like if I'm not gonna give you 33%, I don't want you to make like $20 an hour. Right. So you're putting too much restriction on both ends, on the bottom end and the top. Let them, let them go down if it's a bad job, but then give them the 33% to make a lot more. And how you win them over and they're like, look, I'm gonna be going from 28 to 30, 33. I'm confident this P4P thing no longer am I going to adjust things unless it's like, I'm talking like crazy, like an 80 hour job was supposed to be 25. But regardless, we're going to stick to this because I want you to be able to make more money. I don't want you hitting base pay if more than half the time hit base pay. You're not going to get the efficiencies of P4P because they start just being like, look, it's a 50, 50 shot. If I make good money, I'm not going to work any harder. When it starts hitting 70, 80, 90% though the time they're hitting above base pay, that's when you change the culture. Because now it's accept that you need to be doing this all the time. Even if they know they're going to hit base pay, the culture will push them in the direction of staying efficient.

Okay, that's huge. Thank you so much. That's awesome.

Do the 33% and do not touch.

I'm going to set it.

I'm not going to touch it.

Yeah, I'm not gonna touch it anymore. And then. So do you think for next year, should I raise my base pay at all to get more people in the door or. No, because I've been doing, like, before I hired the person, I hired another person like a week ago, I guess, like this past week. They started yesterday. So. But I had some, like, to try and explain people for p. I'm like, well, how much do you get paid an hour? I'm like, well, you get paid as someone who's been the same as someone who's been here five years. I mean, not that we have someone who's been here five years, but like, kind of backtracking myself and then being like, so it's 14. If people are like 14, almost 18. Click. I'm like, but it's. So should I raise it to 16 or.

No. So what's the average going rate for a landscaping company in your area?

12.

Yeah. So at 14, you're fine. Right. So just be competitive with your base pay, but don't go into the explanation like, what you're. What are you worth? Like, what did you make before? Whatever. Don't go into that garbage.

That's good for that. And then here's another question that's kind of super subjective, but I thought was kind of important is, do I rent space now? Because everything's based out of my house and basically my garage. And we have a giant space here in my garage. That's where I do team meetings and everything's just parked on the side of my house I'm on. Like, I live on a corner. It's like the side that faces away from the front, but it's all there. And nobody. We don't go in and like, I don't eat in front of them and stuff like that, but it's still there. And do I. So I have two trucks now. I think I definitely have to when I get a third truck. But do I move somewhere or do I save the overhead for me to go somewhere? It's around 300 bucks a month for two trucks and two trailers. Probably 450 for. Or 400, something like that, for three trucks and three trailers.

And when you say that those dollar amounts, is that added a storage facility?

No, the storage facility was ungodly amounts of money because it's a nice area around here. But that was just that there's a paving company down the street that just bought a whole giant property. And I called them and I was like, hey, I'm a teenager. Can I rent space? And they were like, yeah, let me call you back. And then. And then there was another one that was from a different, like, just real estate company that has space.

So what do you think? Like, in, like, okay, 2020, what's the revenue gonna be? Like, just this year?

Yeah, probably 150.

Okay. And then next year, based upon. I know, last couple months growing a lot. You think, what, like, 300?

Yeah, the goal. The goal is to get. The goal to get like 350. That's what I'm shooting for.

So try and get three trucks. Try and have at least three trucks on the road every day.

Yeah. Like, you do you do dumping at.

All or not a lot of dumping. So I dump everywhere. So where I dump around here, there's a plate. There's just a place down the street. It's $20 for a dump trailer or for a truck bed. So charge $20 a load for everything. And that's just baked into the cost of the customer.

You probably spend six to seven hundred bucks a month on dumping in spring. Yeah.

Is there more rural areas where you think you get, like, a farm?

Yeah, yeah, there's. They're Right. Like, north of me, there's probably 15 minutes. That's where a lot of landscaping companies are based. And there's farmland out there.

Like, if you could. If you could somehow get some land from a farmer or from someone that's living out on land and they're. That you. I'd give them five or six hundred dollars a month if I could dump there, and they did. They just burn it. Right. Like, it's very important that they be the one that has to manage the debris. But I'm okay with that. And even if you had to do the local thing, that's fine. But honestly, if you're going to combine $400 a month, plus, say $600 a month for debris, you're looking at $1,000. Right. So if you can somehow get that at, you know, 5, 600, even for the ability to dump debris, that's really valuable. Right. And honestly, when you go out to those cheaper spots, literally, I really believe for three or 400, you get a spot where someone's willing to burn. Right. So I would put a thing up on Craigslist on the gigs and just try to go after that, if you can. 15 minutes is a bit of a drive.

Well, that's the problem. Right. Like, if you call it, I could probably find maybe even 10. But still, you're looking at 10 to 15. And that was my holdback is like, is it worth having somewhere I can't dump, but just park them that's closer to our service area because that's a half hour every day and just burning time.

It's the efficiency, though, of having dumping on site instead of having to go to the dump every day. Right.

Okay.

Like, by the time you weigh, you wait, you dump it all out. Whereas at your shop, you literally back up, dump it, and then you park your truck. Right. Okay. And a lot of times that's a lot of the inefficiencies, especially on hourly. But even on P4P for your crew is going to the dump. Right. It's a tough sell for them too, is like, hey, by the way, you gotta go to the dump and you're not getting paid extra, really. Right. So obviously it's part of P2P that you can, you know, calibrate that. However, there's a lot of value we've seen to having dumping on site if you can. And even if you do have to drive 5, 10 more minutes 1 way, I would still round that out because, like, the dump, when it closes, you know, certain things, you have to separate the dump. You know, what goes here, what goes there, waiting for people to dump when it's really busy in the spring, like, all of that adds up. So that's, you know.

Okay, that's a. That's a great perspective. I didn't think of it, that angle. So that's awesome. Thank you. That's huge. I'm definitely looking at that then.

And then.

Okay, so snow. How do you. How do you structure? I know I've watched a ton of. I've basically watched every video I think that's actually useful on YouTube about it. Just read some stuff online. But how do you structure snow with. I mean, I knew you pay them hourly for snow, but so how do you structure that? And how would you structure contracts versus whatever? And then how did you price it when you were first learning?

Yeah. So still do it based upon kind of a budgeted hour. The problem is it depends on the depth of the snow. Right. So, for example, you know, we do not have where we at, like three feet of snow, not happening here. Right. So we can usually give a per push price or per service price and be very, very accurate. Whereas, like, I just got off the phone with one of our franchisees in South Dakota, and he's like, yeah, it can literally snow four feet here tomorrow. And so for him, he gave, like, based upon kind of Budget hours and their rate for snowplowing, which is going to be obviously more than like pulling weeds, that number times whatever. Hours, whatever. But then he has a disclaimer that says if the Snow is above 18 inches, then it's going to be 2x this price. Right. Just to keep it simple. So that way four feet drops, he's going to at least get twice as much for that property. Right. So we don't do a ton of snow, obviously, like you said, we don't do P4P for it because we don't want people to go fast. And we just realize like our margin on that is going to be really good if they do a good job. But we're willing to take some inefficiencies for them to take their time and slow down. So that's kind of where we're at. But basically it's still going by budget hours, times a multiple of an hourly rate and then having some sort of buffer in there in terms of the depth of the snow.

Okay.

Easy.

Awesome. How do you guys organize your registration? That's another kind of simpler question. But how do you organize your trailer versus your truck and keep them so that they're matched up for the dot and stuff like that?

So we don't. All our trailers and trucks get moved around and mixed up. So what we do is we have a binder in each truck that has all of the registrations for each trailer.

That works. Simple. Awesome. All right. Can we spend the rest of the time just talking about marketing?

Because that's.

I mean, after you kind of what you said last time, like it's a marketing game. I kind of went into that and I was like, you know what, he's right. Like I'm literally just trying to get customers and get people. So since then I've done some Facebook, which the Facebook Ads Manager, I don't like it that much. It's kind of a pain for me to use, but I should be doing it wrong. I might just got to practice more. But. And Google Next door and then just started doing email marketing. So what do you so like your thoughts on that?

So first of all, Facebook Ads Manager, if you're not in it every day is very confusing in terms of going to their kind of pro side. Go through your. Go through your Facebook page to make ads. So go to Ad center up above. It's much more intuitive. Whereas if you go to business.facebook.com that's like a very much in depth, very complicated. Yeah, same thing goes for Google Ads. Right? Like Google Ads is a ads.google.com whatever.

Yeah, the ads and, and back end.

Versus if you go through your Google my business page and place an ad going through Express, it's much more simple. Yeah.

Okay, so just run them all that way and then how do you measure your like what do you, I know you expect to get the 10 to 20 multiple, but how do you like for right now especially like when it's not peak season, like what do you expect for that? Just because it's not peak season for cleanups. But I'm still trying to get at least like my goal is to do like this week and then one more full week of cleanups and then switch into more winter services and all the dirt work we have and stuff like that.

Yeah. So a couple things, you know, it depends on, you know what you're tracking. Right. If you're tracking clicks, if you're tracking calls, if you're tracking leads, etc. Right. So obviously the best.

Metric is going to be cost per lead. What does it actually cost for me to get someone to ask for an estimate and actually get that estimate to them? That's why Google local services is so great. That's why even on Google Ads, if your target is for them to call you, you will see how many calls and you will see how long those calls were. So you can basically determine if they were actual leads, like if you actually get a job from it. Right. That's why I'm not a huge fan of just random clicks to your website because it's harder to track them. They're also way cheaper. Right. You might pay A$2 per click or even less on a Facebook ad. A lot less on a Facebook ad. But you're just going to click. Right. So then there's another funnel of drop off that's going to actually convert to a lead. So in terms of numbers I'm looking for, if it's over 6.

If it's over $6 per click on Google. Not a fan. Right. I know. I want under 6. Like 5 is really like where I want to be at that or below Facebook. If I'm paying for where they fill out a lead form, I want that under $50.

If I'm paying for a call, I want the under $5 on Facebook because they're not great. They're not like a call on Facebook is not as good as a call from Google.

So yeah, those are just kind of round numbers I guess.

Okay, awesome. Yeah, those are good ones. And do you see and when do you know that Your ad is bad compared to, like, just compared to the prices.

Like.

And I know, like, sure, I've read Dan Kennedy and all the great favorite sales marketing person. But like, how do you know when your actual ad copy is bad? Do you just run AB testing or.

A couple things. First of all, I'm looking at performance over time. So Google is a lot more. What's the word?

Long? I don't know. Longevity. I don't know. The longevity of your copy on Google is a lot better because people are looking for you and then it's a matter of whether or not you're good or bad in terms of whether or not they click, right? In terms of your copy, where the Facebook, your copy starts getting seen 3, 4, 5 times, you either change it or just you can see if it does well and then start to drop off. So I'm really looking at performance over time. I'm looking at, for example, if I'm tracking clicks, if I get 10 clicks the first day, seven clicks the next day, three clicks the next day, two clicks the next day, one click, and I'm still paying $20 a day, we've got a problem. Right? Whereas if it goes 10, 11, 12, 14, 19, 16, 13, 18, and I'm starting to perform like that, that's when. Okay, great, Here we go. This is a good ad. I'm looking more at, like, tracking against performance as well as impressions, because Google and Facebook will not show a pathetic ad. So if the impressions are going down, usually clicks will follow. But impressions is really the thing that, like, Google and Facebook are watching to see if people are, like, actually paying attention here and if they're bringing down how many times they show your ad, it's a good indication that people are not interacting with it. It's not creating clicks because they. At the end of the day, if you're paying them to get clicks, they're trying to put the best ad in front of people to get the most clicks because that's when they get paid. They don't get paid for impressions unless you're specifically trying to target that. So, like, my thing is like, looking. Is Facebook putting this in front of more people? Is my cost per click going down? Is it going up? Those are all things I'm kind of looking at.

Okay. Just analyzing the metrics over time.

Yeah.

Okay. And that's just getting better at it over time too. Like, I'm not going to be a.

Genius at it yet and changing it, right? So, like, a great ad on Facebook will do good today, but if I Don't change it in a week. It's gonna do a lot worse because people have seen it five times now. Right. So just changing your creative in terms of the picture and the text, that alone will be enough to rejuvenate it and start doing good again. Right?

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Awesome. That's. I really didn't think you could make that that short. That's awesome. Thank you.

Have you done next door?

Yeah, yeah, I did next door. Did you join their thing where it's like, pay this much a month to get your stuff?

Yeah, I'll talk about.

I have.

I have that. I paid for it. Is it worth it? I haven't seen anything from it. I've gotten more from the local deals, which cost like four bucks, than the $100 a month sponsorship.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

And then as far as local deals, do you see a lot of lead generation from those? Because I've been running them and I guess I don't want to give discounts because I don't want to get people addicted to discounts at all. But I guess people don't really care that much about 24 hour estimates. It's more of when I give them the estimate in 24 hours. They use me, but they don't care about that upfront. That's what like, so what do you say on those to get them to click and then get the 24 hour estimate where then they're like, oh, that was quick.

I'll buy it. So yeah, because of local deals, you got to have an offer. Our offer is always just a free property analysis or a free estimate. Right. So that's the giveaway that we're doing. Right. Because they want it to be a percentage off or a deal of some sort. So ours is a free, you know, property analysis or free inspection or property report or whatever it might be in terms of the local deal itself.

Okay. So just go with that. And it just. It is what it is as far as that kind of goes.

Yeah. In terms of cost per click on those, like, anything under $2 is really good. And my big thing is that none of your competitors are probably marketing in that space. And honestly, usually in each market I'm seeing only a couple of businesses in general marketing in that space. So it's pretty, you know, wide open right now. And I think in a year or so it'll probably be a little more crowded. Just a small business figure it out. So I think it's kind of a blue ocean for now.

But I love nextdoor, though. It's awesome. Like I just, every customer I've seen on there, I'm like, put something on there. Cause every time I do get four website, I get four website things. If I'm like, hey, just like the website, I get four of them the next day. That's freaking awesome.

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

So here's kind of the last question I guess because we have a couple minutes left is I didn't sell the diesel F250 for basically for. There's two reasons why. Two main reasons why is one in two to three years I want to get into, I want to start a construction company. Like that's kind of long term goal is. I mean my dad did a specific kind of niche thing not to get into it, but I want to start like an excavation company, like digging, I don't know, say everything from homes to apartment complexes. So I kept it kind of thinking about that. But then lately I've been kind of like, well I can just buy a new one then down the road. But the biggest thing is I've had such terrible luck buying trucks. Like the truck, like when I sold my other truck, I didn't do that well selling it because whatever, for whatever reason. And then the new truck I just got, I had it pre purchased inspected. The guy said it was good. I brought it back to my home mechanic and he's like, all right, you should sit down before I read you the list of what's wrong with this one. And I was like, oh God.

It went from being a $7,000 truck. And I was like, oh my God, seven grand, I'm doing good to being an $11,000 truck. And I was like, okay, well I'm not doing good anymore.

This is bad.

It's a two wheel drive 150. It's not worth that. So what are your thoughts on that? You think it's worth it to sell it and try and buy two or.

Three? This is the thing is like I know that that diesel over time is going to cost a lot in maintenance. Right? That's my thing. You've heard that before. But I'm the worst at mechanics. I've never changed an oil. I, I'm, I'm clueless.

Like honestly, I'm pretty bad too.

Yeah, just changing the windshield fluid is.

Like rocket science for me.

So like I can code an app but I cannot change my windshield locker fluid. Like I'm pretty bad. So when it comes to like buying trucks, full disclosure, until recently, I don't have people in spit. I never had People inspect. It's like, I.

So what'd you do?

Probably, I probably got really lucky.

Okay. Okay.

But I looked at it like 15 or 20 times. But honestly, like, my big thing is, like, if I'm paying a low enough price for me to be able to say, okay, if the engine or the transmission goes out on this thing and I switch it out, I'll be still happy with this deal. That's when I buy. Because I know that if there is, like, a loose gasket or there's like a spring that's missing on an unleaded vehicle that is very standard, like a Ford or GMC or whatever, that those things are usually cheap. It's the big things that cost me, right? It's the engine and the transmission. Whereas on a diesel truck, I don't even have to touch the engine and the transmission. I can still spend 20 grand. Like, it's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's crazy.

That's why I lean towards the unleaded leaded probably in full disclosure, because I'm not good at mechanics. To be able to look at a diesel and be like, oh, that's gonna cost me 10 grand. Yeah. Whereas usually I'm like, okay, does it run decently on the engine? Does the transmission seem pretty decent when I press it really hard? And like, if those things check out and I can get five years before either of those things blow, then I'm good. Right?

That's awesome.

My analysis on trucks is pretty pathetic. Now, if I was going to get a trick, I might have a mechanic with me. But I don't know. I'm going for cheap. So, like, I know I'm gonna get a lemon occasionally, right? So I go, we did get one trick that wasn't great. We ended up having to put a few thousand dollars into it right off the bat because of the electrical issues. But I got it for $3,200. So, like, I'm not gonna complain.

Oh, man, that's awesome. So just wait for the right deal. I was kind of in a rush to buy it. Cause I needed a truck. But I guess if you're not in a rush, you just kind of hang out and.

Yeah. And right now, like, the used phone. The used phone. Sorry, I was grabbing my phone. The used car market is very hot, right. So your deals are few and far between. We had to pay significantly more this year when we bought three more trucks compared to usual and actually had to go to a dealership for one because we needed a truck. So being in a spot to need a truck Tomorrow is never a good spot because you end up paying double sometimes.

I've.

Especially when we were growing a lot last couple years ago, I was always looking if there was a really cheap deal that was like, that's worth four grand more. I'm buying it right now. Right, okay.

And how'd you manage your cash? Sorry for going over a little bit, but how do you manage it? Like, I'm. I think a plane that's, like, skipping on the water sometimes before I can. Like, as far as cash goes. Like, I'm just low on cash because I'm reinvesting every. Like, I'm not spending any on me.

It's not.

It's all in the. Just buying stuff for the company.

Yep. Give me one second here.

You're good. You're good.

Do you. Do you see the chat box?

Yeah.

If you call this number that I'm about to text you, I can be on the phone for 10 more minutes, but I gotta drive somewhere and be there in 10 minutes. So if you call that, though, I'll stay on the phone with you.

Oh, dude, that'd be awesome. Thank you so much.

Okay, I'll see you in a bit.