MK9Pod Ep2 - RECALL Issues, Living in Cities and Breed Specific Behaviours

This is gonna sound mental. He has the same behaviour problems now as when I first got him. What you can get rid of is that just obsession, that frustration, and the restlessness. And as soon as all that's gone, because you've enriched the dog's life, you've given them outlets, then the dog's trainable. And when the dog does need to listen to recall, they'll listen. When you talk about like traditional training, like obedience, the only thing my dogs know is recall. My dogs don't even know sit. Or stay.

I always say to people, you don't actually need to teach your dog anything except recall for them to be well behaved.

Exactly.

It's the only thing you need to see. That's what I was just about to say. The most well-behaved dogs like I have sometimes met are dogs that they haven't done a day's training in their life.

Yeah. First podcast for you.

Oh, we're rolling?

Yeah, we've been rolling for about a minute.

Sorry.

Yeah, we don't do normal starts here, it's just conversation.

Okay, you're right.

Lorna?

Yep.

That's first name?

Yeah.

Okay. Joyce?

Yep.

Interesting, two first names.

Yeah.

So good they named you twice. Is that what they normally say?

Yeah, yeah. Usually people get it wrong though, they get the wrong way around and they call me Joyce.

Well, because your email— I'm not going to give it away, but—

Oh yeah, yeah, it is the surname first. Yeah, I think it's because they didn't have the other option.

Oh, too many Lorna Joyces.

Yeah.

Oh, okay. All right. Um, and sea, ocean, wave.

Oh my God, how have I found that? Are you for real?

No, it was something to do with the beach.

Tide.

Tide, that was it. I caught that. Literally, how dare you forget? I'm dreadful at names. That's why I had to check your name, because she's wondering. I can see her. She's very— she's so besenji. Do you know what I'm on about?

I can't— I can— I think I know what you're talking about, but I can't see it.

Besenji. That's not how you spell it.

I was trying to say that you're a mongrel, Tide.

No, Basenjis aren't mongrels.

No, a mix of what she is though.

Oh yeah, true. Like, come on, her with pointy ears.

Yeah, I think, I think it's because her ears are so high on top of her head. Yeah, like they're placed on top of her head. Yeah, when they're upright as well, I suppose.

Yeah.

Oh look, there we go.

Hello, I hear you like attention. Yeah, um, so the, the normal icebreaker is your name, dog's name, and if your dog was a car, what kind of car would they be?

I don't know cars.

Oh, um, let me think. If they were— okay, if, if Tide was a pair of socks, what would be on those socks? Um, fluff. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's good.

Fluff. And, um, I don't know, also probably a, a rock or something in there.

Just a stone in there.

She's soft but pretty tough at the same time.

I mean, the first thing she did when she walked in here was trying to destroy toys. Yeah, it was just like instant. It's like, oh, we're at a new place, done, confirmed, analyzed. Now where can I destroy things?

Let's wreck everything.

Yeah, you're a little ball of muscle, aren't you?

But then she's actually— look, she's a little wet wipe at the same time. I call wet lettuce.

I absolutely love her. Hello! This is dream dog material for me. Brilliant stuff. So good. Um, what would you say is one thing she does that you would not tolerate from a person?

Shout at me.

Yeah, yeah, true.

Yeah, it does that quite often.

Yeah. When does she shout at you? You said when you— when she does agility.

I mean, when she got out the car, she was excited. Oh yeah, yeah, she barks. She barks when she's excited. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's about it. But we like, we have— we mess about with it. Like, she shouts at me and I'm like, I'm gonna kill you. And then she shouts at me and I'm like, I'm gonna— and then we chase each other out.

Yeah, no, I, I do.

I like dogs.

Yeah.

Um, but sometimes she does it when I don't want her to do it, and I'm like, I am actually going to kill you.

Yeah, for what?

No, not like as in like when if we like go out of the back door and she's like buzzing for a walk or something like that, then I'm like, you need to pack that in, dog. But I love her. I mean, she's just, um, just, yeah, fiery little beast.

She's brilliant.

She's just like, oh, her ears are really small as Yeah, she's just got two personalities in one. There's just that part of her that's really feisty, and then the other part of her that's really soft because she's a wuss at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, she seems so far she's very like Ernie the Doberman I've been talking about, because he is like, when it comes to toys and work, he is like, I'm putting my head into this kind of stuff. But then any sort of social situations or anything, he's just like the soppiest, like, yeah, the most polite thing you can think of. He's always gonna try and figure out how to find that. Like, he's like, he's always just like, how can I ask for this attention? Yeah, can I keep this attention here without pushing it too much? Like, like, she's so subtly, but she's like on the verge of being pushy because she's very like, I'm gonna lean, I'm gonna turn around, I'm gonna come back, and it's just enough. Yeah, it's just enough not for anyone to get annoyed. It's brilliant.

You funny, aren't you, darling? Yeah, this is what you usually do for the attention. Come and just Oh, don't eat the microphone.

Yeah, you can chew anything in here apart from the mics, please.

Good girl. We take them away so you could chill out, didn't we?

Instantly found something with fluff on it. I mean, she's more than welcome to destroy like a tennis ball.

No, it's okay. Okay, don't chew that.

Don't chew that. Tide. Ocean. Wave.

Can't believe you call it Ocean. I literally said to you—

it's because you said, yeah, yeah, I said you wanted a sea name, but I didn't like Ocean.

Yeah, you've called Yeah, sorry, Tide.

Does she have a second name?

No, her, um, she has a kennel club name though, um, for agility. Kennel club name. Okay, so when you do, um, she's not KC registered like her breed isn't, but when you do, when you compete, you have to put them on the activity register. Yeah, um, and I'm trying to think of what her kennel club name is after I've brought that up. Oh, Uh, the, the Tide Will Turn, or the Turn of the Tide, one of them. I can't remember which one I picked.

Was that like a racehorse kind of name? They've always got that type of name. Yeah, yeah.

And you get to choose, so if you, if your dog's not KC Reg, like from birth, yeah, they— you put them on the activity register and you can pick what names, and you only have two options. And if it's already taken, um, then you don't get like another.

Does it have to include their name?

No. It can literally be anything.

What would Enzo's be? So my, um, Enzo's would probably be like fiery Ferrari.

Yeah, people try to have something like speed.

Yeah, just because Enzo Ferrari.

Yeah, is that the car Enzo would be?

Well, no. Yeah, because also Enzo is the name of the guy that started Ferrari. Oh, and Enzo's named after the tourist that found him on the streets who was Italian, so I would assume he was named after Enzo Ferrari as well. So Enzo would have to be something to do with a Ferrari. But also, yeah, I think if Enzo was a car, he'd be a Ferrari, 100%, because he's not just fast, like, he's, he's not stuck up until you get to know him. He seems stuck up because he couldn't give a shit about you. Like, I was filming here the other day and the guy that was holding the camera, he's great with dogs, he's always had dogs, but he couldn't get over the fact that Enzo had been here for 20 minutes and not said hi to him yet.

Oh, see, I like a dog like that though.

Oh no, I do too.

I love it.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, yeah, Enzo knows that the only thing coming from you is like a pat on the head for a bit. And to him, he's over it. He wanted to see what I was doing. Dad had the toys, yeah, out of the food. Dad was training. But even when I was setting stuff up, Enzo was just kind of like watching me or like sniffing around. He— I think he, he went up to the camera guy after maybe an hour and just went, just check, I'm gonna suss you out. And he did like the sniff kind of thing. He took some love. But like, even on walks, like, the amount of people that do the whole like, oh, hello, because he's walking towards them.

Yeah.

And I know for a fact he's literally gonna get about a meter away, get a whiff, and go, no, into the woods.

I like that though. I love dogs like that because actually, if you think about it, a dog like that is the most well-behaved dog. Yeah, you don't have to worry about them jumping at people over excitement. Overexcited. Yeah, like that's the best kind of dog.

Yeah, I think, and I think it is just because he was a street dog for so long. Yeah, people are just— even with dogs, because before I rescued him, he was in a rescue center for a whole year, but in like an open pen with like groups of dogs.

So like he spent probably time on the street in a foreign country, in Malta. Um, that's how they do it out in foreign countries. Yeah, we just put them all in together.

And when I, when I went there, I just turned up, I was like, can I 'Walk a dog?' And they were like, 'Yes, give us name, number.' And then he did, they just passed me Enzo and I'm like, 'Okay,' and I just took him and just walked around. I could have fucked off, but like, yeah, but I don't really care what you're gonna do, steal a dog that they're trying to get rid of. Yeah, exactly. And he's free, all the dogs are free.

What funds their places then?

Just people that donate. Oh yeah, it was wild. I'm like, he's free. Like, yes, but it's also £1,600 for us to build a crate because there's no factories in Malta because it's a tiny island, just like Isle of Wight.

Well, the crate to fly him home.

Yeah, so I had to pay someone to build it and then had to pay obviously for him to fly over. But like, all of the, all of the dogs at that rescue center came with passports because the only people that actually adopt them are tourists.

Yeah, because that's fair because it's so small over there.

Yeah, the Maldives point to point is 22 miles. Yeah, which isn't even from here to Bristol. And there's like 4 rescue centers on that island, and the one that Enzo was at, there was so many dogs. So many dogs.

Yeah, you tell them who's there.

I love that little snuff.

Is there somebody outside?

Did I tell them that short?

No, she was dogs. She's from a farm person.

More, more of this is making sense. At first I wondered why you look like an alligator, but—

oh, she's so hench as well. That's all those genes. Yeah, her parents, I mean, they've probably done some illegal stuff.

Maybe.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were doing some illegal stuff with her parents. Oh right, as in like killing things that they shouldn't be killing.

Oh, um, like badgers maybe?

Yeah, badgers and foxes and stuff like that. But I just wanted a drivey, fiery dog, so I wanted that genetics. But she's, um, her prey drive's been fine, to be fair. I just have never let her sort of switch it on. Yeah, and she's been absolutely fine, touch wood, so far.

I'm the opposite.

You've let your dogs do it loads and now—

No, but it's still not a problem. I mean, every day I go out for 3 to 4 hours and just let them be dogs.

Let them chase.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's what I've done with my Labrador. Oh right, he was obsessed with pheasants, but he just— Yeah, now he's like, oh, it's—

But it's one of those things. Wait, do you also have a Labrador?

Yeah.

Oh, why is he—

He's a half Labrador, half Golden Retriever. He's not here because he doesn't really like traveling.

Oh right.

And he's like 9 now, and I just thought, oh, I can stay— he's happy at home. Yeah, that's fair.

Um, but no, I mean, my dogs chase stuff all the time, and, um, we still have recall, which is great, just when we need it.

Yeah, I've seen that. I've seen your video of Dev and the deer.

Yeah, yeah, there was like— we— because we went to— so we went away on a course, we're doing tracking, and the place we were at was like this big national park, and the deer— honestly, one walk, we're out for maybe like just an hour in the morning I must have seen 100 deers. 100 deers. It was mental. And they don't really run away because people fucking feed them. And I was like, I live in the countryside where we see a deer a day and it's a rocket and it's gone. So Enzo's seeing these deers like the deers back at home.

Yeah.

So he was chasing every single one. But yeah, the recoil worked every time. But I think if I lived there, my recoil wouldn't work because like if I'm And this is what I always tell people, is like, get recall around these things, but don't try and call your dog from every single one because it would just eventually stop working. Yeah, like, it, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's like a catch-22.

It's a hard balance, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. But I think if I, if I lived there, I probably just wouldn't do those walks. I'd have to do more enrichment at home. Yeah, uh, but I think thankfully here all the wildlife just runs and it's not in groups and it's just like, it's just the odd thing here and there. Like, deers, when I first got Enzo, would have ruined a day because that would have been him gone for 10-15 minutes. Now it's literally like, oh, there's a deer, he's gone, and then he's back in 30 seconds because he's like, oh, it ran way too far, because he can't fucking catch a deer. Um, but yeah, it's just like, because he was so obsessed when I first got him because he was just this really hyperactive, frustrated dog. So deers were just like gold to him, whereas like now he's not in that state. Deers is just like, oh, that's fun, oh, that's, that's fast, I'm gonna come back and find Dad. And that's just like our walks now, so it's brilliant. Yeah, but most of his prey drive every day goes towards just voles, just digging holes.

Really?

Yeah, little, little things. He's, he's never really had a crazy drive for big things anyway. Like chasing deers is only something that started a couple years ago, and I've had him 5 years. Um, I don't know why, he just started chasing them. I'm like, good for you, man.

Probably because you, you probably didn't notice it because you didn't have them see them that much.

Yeah, true. Um, but yeah, it was really like, like it was really rare that he would disappear after a deer. If he did, it was for a very long time. It must have been like a slow one or something. But now it's like every deer the last couple years. But he's like, cool, he's gone too fast.

Good.

Yeah.

Can't be bothered anymore.

No. Yeah, but squirrels—

Jesus Christ, squirrels are hard though. They're so fast and small and fluffy, aren't they?

I mean, he's caught 64 of them.

Has he? What, you're counting? What, he's killed them?

Yeah.

Oh, don't come to the Isle of Wight.

Really? Are they red ones? Yeah. Yeah, no, I won't do that.

You'll get— people will be very upset with you. Yeah, yeah.

No, he's only ever caught grey ones.

Yeah, that's fine. Grey ones are—

yeah, so many.

They're like rats, aren't they?

So many. So, so many. It's really interesting Maybe about 20 squirrels in, he started burying them. I think he started to respect them. I think he was like, you know what, you guys are really good entertainment.

We could have a funeral.

Yeah, he's never tried to eat a squirrel. Like, if he catches like a pheasant, he'll eat it. He's caught a few rabbits in his life. He'll eat a whole rabbit. Yeah, bigger than her. He'll eat it in 15 minutes straight, not a single thing left. It's wild how he stomachs it.

Yeah, to be fair, my labrador would eat rabbit. He did the other day. Yeah, 8 bits of dead rabbit. It's unreal.

But like a squirrel, never even tried. He's just like dead.

He's probably not got enough meat on it, is it?

Well, I'd say that about a pheasant. He still tries. He gives up on pheasants because he gets just mouthful of feathers and it's just— he's constantly like, bite, bite, and then he's like there for 10 seconds like spitting stuff out. I'm like, dude, give up, give up.

Did you raw feed him? I think he's trying to tell you something.

No, no, I've never raw fed him. Um, I give him raw chews. That's it. Do you raw feed?

Uh, I go on and off it. I like to raw feed, but I find that I can't remember to take out the freezer all the time.

Yeah, I do that on my own food, so—

and then I don't— oh, and then I've run out and then I don't order it. So I was half and half. I like to have my dogs accustomed to both. Yeah, so we can go away and it's not an issue. Yeah, but I do love raw feeding. But at the moment they're not raw fed.

Yeah, I don't know if I'd ever come around to doing it. I do cold-pressed food, which when you look at nutritional value-wise compared to raw, it's very, very close.

Yeah, it's expensive though, isn't it? I think that's the problem.

Yes, although I do get mine for free because—

what?

I'm getting blessed.

Why do you get it for free?

I've been working with Tribal for, um, about 3 years.

Oh, first you've got a little deal, you promote them.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I don't make any money on whatever people buy though. People think like, oh, he's promoting it because he'll make more money. He's like, no, they, they pay me and that's it. If I— if you— if a million of you buy food, I'll get paid the same. I just love it. I wanted to work with them.

I would say, I suppose even, even free food, that's enough of a payment, isn't it? I mean, food's expensive.

Yeah. And it gets— and it just gets kind of like delivered to me because they ship anywhere around the UK. Uh, but I mean, I was feeding my dogs that for like a good year before we started working with Tribal. Um, and then I was just— I actually got my followers, so I was like, just bug them, message Tribal. I'd get on like live streams and I'd mention it, but I'd love to work with them. Um, and yeah, I've been working with them ever since.

Did they reach out to you or did you then reach out to them?

No, no, I bugged them. I messaged them a few times and my followers as well. I was like, like, just have a call with me. This will be the best decision ever. Uh, and yeah, we've worked together for ages and it's brilliant.

Oh, I need to do more things like that.

I love it.

Free dog food.

Yeah, but it's brilliant because— sorry, pardon me— on, on the website I teach people about how diet affects behavior. And when we look at the studies at kind of like the optimal like protein levels and meat percentages and certain ingredients. The reason why I started feeding Tribal is because they've just— some, like, I've, I've shown the studies to the founder of Tribal and they haven't seen them before. I'm like, you've nailed it, like, on, like, they have no idea, no idea. I was like, you fucking nailed it. And they're like, oh, it's brilliant. Um, and I always say to them, I was like, you should like advertise it as something that could help, but they never do. But that's what I do.

I suppose their profession isn't behavior, is it?

So they probably feel a bit like But I mean, if they've got the data to back it up, I mean, yeah, I don't see why not. Yeah, because it makes such a difference. Like, if anyone has behavioral issues with like reactivity or, um, light-chasing dogs or dogs with like fixation issues, a diet can change so much because it's 90% of your serotonin comes from your food. And if your diet isn't creating enough serotonin, it drops and your dopamine replaces it. So you get these dopamine-filled dogs, and dopamine is just the motivator for anything. Yeah. So it's like, studies will show that if we can manage to decrease the amount of free dopamine in a dog's body, dogs in shelters would react less, they would sleep more, uh, because it's just the driver for reactivity. Even like aggression, like the aggression is used because of its reinforcement potential. So if you've got a dog that's slightly less desperate for reinforcement because their dopamine's lower, they're less likely to use aggression reactivity. Yeah, and you can make that difference with just the food you feed.

I know, it's mad, isn't it?

It's wild. But like, 90% is like such a wild number as well.

But I think, I think people don't realize how much of a diet actually has an impact on their dog's paver. And especially like you mentioned, rescue centers. The poor rescue centers have got— they're donated like the cheapest, yeah, worst food ever. So their dogs are all on like just cereals and sugar. Yeah. And they're all bouncing around the kennel like wolves. Like, I've seen it. I used to work at a rescue center the food we were giving them, and it was just awful.

Yeah, no, it's so bad. It's so sad. Um, yeah, I don't know if I could work in a rescue center. I cry really easy when it comes to animals.

I'll be honest, I left because I couldn't cope with it. Yeah, I was there for about 3 years.

I don't know why with people I don't have— I struggle with empathy because I— my mind is always like—

about you?

Uh, yeah, no, my mind is always like You can figure it out. Like, you're a really smart human. Whereas, like, just dogs especially, they don't know what's being done to them and what situation they're in.

Oh no.

And, like, they're— and they're so emotionally driven, which is something that makes them a lot easier to work with and harder to work with in some situations. But, like, a dog, when they're scared of something, can't just, like, think it through. They're not gonna go there and go, you know what, I'm gonna get over this fear. They're very just like, that's a scary thing.

Yeah, that's just reality. Override it.

Yeah, that's why the only way of getting a dog over a fear is to expose them to that thing in a way that isn't scary on a regular basis. You can't just like teach a dog like, that's not scary. Like, you have to show them it. And that's why like I could never work in a rescue center, because like that, it's just like too many emotions. I, I wouldn't be able to look at the dogs and be like, oh, you'll be all right, you're gonna be fine. Because if they're scared, I'm like, you're here until someone gets you.

We didn't— I didn't cope— we didn't cope with much fear. I didn't have much fear in my experience, what working in a rescue center, it was mainly— I mean, yeah, initially when they come in for maybe the first week, they'd be a little bit fearful, but once they set in, it was just hyperactivity, just absolute craziness. Like, they would be bouncing off the walls. They're just so understimulated.

Yeah.

Um, and most of them would come in with not too bad behavior problems, but they'd leave with a million of them.

Oh yeah.

And, and there was no— and that's why I had to leave in the end, because I just couldn't cope with the fact that we weren't— yeah, we couldn't help them as much as what I would like to help them. And they were so strict as well on who can have them and this and the other, because they're so worried about the backlash of the dog.

True.

If something bad happens or if a dog comes back, that they're more fearful of that than they are fearful of leaving the dog in the kennels, right? Um, for like years on end. I mean, there was one dog there for 2 years. That's just— and she was fine. There's nothing wrong with her, no behavioral problem.

It was fine.

Yeah.

What breed was she?

Uh, I don't know how to pronounce this. I'm probably going to pronounce it wrong or someone's going to tell me off. No. Oh, uh, Cane Corso.

Yeah, I say that.

I used to say Cane Corso.

I used to say Cane Corso.

Yeah, everyone pronounced it different, don't they? I never had to just call it Italian Mastiff. Um, pronounce Dachshund either.

Yeah, I say Dachshund.

Okay, good. Yeah, but some people say Dachshund.

Yeah, no, because I think it's Dachshund.

Oh, like, like the Hund is in hound.

Yeah, it's German because it's for badger hound.

Yeah, I say Dachshund anyway.

Yeah, I say Dachshund.

I've got one. Yeah, the canicorso, bless her, she was lovely. Um, but yeah, 2 years she was in there in the end.

Damn.

She actually went home with one of the staff members.

Yeah, I feel like that's what I do.

It seems to happen here and there.

Yeah, yeah, no, I couldn't, I, that, I, I couldn't work somewhere like that and not have like a dog a year? Because, because I like— I feel like if you're seeing the dogs all the time, you're just going to be constantly finding reasons not to get them, and then you're going to run out and then find reasons slowly to get them. Yeah, you're gonna have like a whole year to contemplate getting a dog.

I feel like you either go that way or the other. You either go one way where you're— you want them all and you're so like emotionally in tune with them, or because you're exposed to it so much, you sort of harden up. And I feel like that's the way I sort of went, really, and I didn't like it, which is why I sort of was like, oh, I can't, I've lost my love for dogs because they're just annoying me all the time because I feel bad every time I see them because they're so frustrated and upset.

Yeah.

So I ended up just having a negative experience every time I saw dogs.

Yeah, hyperactive dogs are hard. Yeah, because they are just trying to have a really good time.

Oh, they're all like Staffies and bullies and stuff as well, right? So they're all the ones that are hyperactive and really strong. Yeah, you take them out the kennel, they're hanging off your arm. Yeah, you're like, oh God, poor things, mate.

Honestly, um, I should probably get some of these questions I have. Oh yeah, um, so, uh, you're pregnant. Yeah, congrats.

Thanks.

Um, let me know if you do or don't announce it because I will be fine.

I'm like, I'm 13 weeks now, so I just haven't told my granddad and my aunties yet.

And your followers.

And my followers. Yeah, I don't know how I'm gonna do that actually. How should I do that?

I feel like it needs to be, uh, you could It's very me to be casual. This clip, because I, I was going to ask you, is do you have any advice for anyone expecting a small child or having a small child?

What, with dogs? As in, in relation with dogs?

Yeah, this is Dr. Animal.

Oh no, I know, I thought we were just chatting.

Yeah, no, we're not going to be talking about children because I will not be able to join in on this topic.

Um, yeah, advice. I mean, I've probably got way too much, if I'm honest.

Really?

Um, It's something that I worry about quite a lot. And actually, I was— I am going to, when I move into my new house, hopefully in a couple of months, I'm probably going to make little tip series, tutorial series. I might make a separate social media account for it because I don't want all the dog people to get annoyed about the fact that we're talking about babies all the time.

I just upload more stuff.

Um, yeah, just keep it—

you're gonna do loads of baby stuff, just do loads more dog stuff. And now you do a post to post to post to post.

Oh, fair. Okay. Yeah, balance out a little bit. But I will probably, because there's so much I've got so much work to do for my dogs before it happens. Um, but the main thing I suppose advice-wise would be prep early. And the only way to know what there is to train or work on is to act like you have a baby already.

Yeah, that's the advice I always get.

Yeah, my clients, I'm like, you need to walk in with a doll and have your phone screaming. Yeah, YouTube, you know, get a baby crying on YouTube. Put it down on the floor if you're going to change nappy on the floor, like all those things. And then pretend like you've got a baby for a few hours.

Yeah.

And then you'll know exactly what you've got to work on.

Yeah, no, 100%. What I always say is like, if, if you think there's going to be like a change in routine, or, um, of course there'll be moments where you're gonna have to kick the dog out of a room, like practice doing that now.

Yeah.

Like just, just, just come in one day and just kick the dog out the living room for like 5 minutes. And then in an hour you're going to do it again for 10 minutes. Just like build up, because yeah, maybe when you change the diaper of the baby, you're probably gonna kick her out the room for a little bit. Yeah, who knows.

Or your baby's at least going to be on the floor like at some point. Yeah, exactly. Go over and jump on them, which mine definitely would do at the moment.

Yeah, yeah.

Which is why I've got lots of work to do.

A new human, brilliant. Yeah, no, I think, um, because, because the worst, worst thing is— because it's not like being kicked out of a room is going to be like a terrible thing for the dog. But if all this change then comes— only comes when the baby arrives, they're going to associate it all with the baby.

Yeah.

So like, get all the change in first and then, oh look, baby, but we're still doing all this random stuff. So yeah, I definitely always just live like you've got a baby already.

Yeah. And get them— I suppose get them used to sleeping more in the day. Um, I mean, obviously their needs still need to be met once you've got the baby, but your priorities change, so they can get used to sleeping more. Yeah. Before the baby comes. And, um, yeah, it's hard, isn't it? I think a lot of people— I see there was a thing on going around TikTok the other week, and a lot of people were talking about how they loved their dog and their dog was their baby, and then they have a baby, and whether it's hormones or what, but they just end up— their dog just overstimulates them and they just hate their dog, and it takes them like months to be able to like come back. Yeah, I suppose Well, I think just having like a really good partner and stuff like that and just prepping things. I'm considering getting a dog walker for 2 weeks straight for when I give birth, just so I don't feel guilt.

Yeah. Um, is your partner involved with the dog much?

Yeah, and he— yeah, and he will walk them and stuff like that. But, um, oh yeah, I've got—

you have another one?

Yeah, I just want them— I just want them to be happy, and I'm so nervous that they're not going to be happy.

I, I think— I mean, how long was your walk this morning?

An hour and a half.

Okay, that's a pretty big walk, to be honest.

They do get quite a lot— I do do a lot with them. Yeah, yeah, we do agility, we walk a lot. They're not used to not doing very much.

Maybe at first. I think everyone will struggle with change. I don't really like change anyway. Even if it actually has no effect on me, I'll make it affect me.

Yeah.

Um, but I, I can see you within like a month being like baby attached to you. Back to normal walks, everything.

I mean, I'm looking at— I'm trying to find this newborn— because all these prams that you buy, they're all like lovely little perfect pavement prams, and I'm like, I need an off-roader. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it needs to be bouncing about on the like mountains and stuff so I can actually get out.

I bet there'll be someone that can make you a custom one or something.

Yeah, I think there are some, to be fair. I'm gonna look.

Um, you're gonna have to get Gonna have to get one with like some weight at the bottom. You want low center of gravity because the last thing you want is it tipping. Yeah, because if it has like a thing at the bottom, put like weights in it.

Okay, yeah, and that'll stabilize it a little bit.

That's why electric cars are really hard to flip because the battery's along the bottom.

Oh really?

Yeah, whereas combustion engines—

are you a car man? You mentioned cars quite a bit today.

I do really like cars. Yeah, yeah, no, I do really like cars. Yeah, yeah, no, but I'll come out with a fact on anything, any topic. Honestly, if you want to talk about planes for half an hour, we can do that as well. Uh, yeah, I know I'm always into anything. Um, so we'll probably talk about dog training for a bit. Um, yeah, what is a behavior that you think is really misunderstood in dogs?

Uh, that's a big question.

Yeah, I know there's more than one, but what would you say is one behavior that's misunderstood in dogs that's very common? I'm gonna go first if you want.

Yeah, go on.

Mine's barking. Okay, we kind of already spoke about this. Yeah, we have, because this little one is very similar to my little sausage dog where I train her to bark for everything because I like— I want— everyone wants their dog to communicate with them what they want and what they don't want, but when it comes out as barking, people just think that's just like, that's just all bad, but it's like That dog wants food, that one wants food. They're both asking for it, just different ways. So it's always like, if a dog is barking for things when they're excited, when they get frustrated, if they're just a barky dog, that's not a problem. If the dog is always in that state, that's the problem. But that's a completely unrelated thing.

Like, if—

like, I, I train Purdy to bark for food, but does that mean she's always barking at me for food? No, because she's not always needing food. And I'd— if she wants to play with a toy or play with me or go on a walk, I've trained her to bark at me, but she never really barks at me because she's never bored, never frustrated. So yeah, I think a lot of people always want barking to stop because it's just bad.

That's a bad dog thing, actually.

Yeah, but I always say to people, barking's just communication.

Yeah, and it's always seen as a bad behavior, isn't it, as well? Like, sometimes it can just be like—

I love so much when I heard that little thing bark in the car, I was like, yes! Yeah, I was like, she's ready for it. That's why I love Purdy. As soon as she starts— like, on my walk just now, um, I did a little bit of scatter feeding, and Purdy always knows. Take my bag off, touches the floor, and she's off.

She's like, oh wow, she knows that you're about to start.

Yeah, yeah, she knows that I'm about to give her something. But like, if she can't smell the food or hear the wrapper I'll put my bag down, whatever. And she's like, cool, whatever. But like, she knows it's for her. But yet again, because she's not like crazy hyper and desperate for it, if I don't want to scatter the food yet, I'm like, no, Purd's like, it's not right now. She's like, oh, okay.

Yeah, it's a problem if it's like to excess, isn't it? Or if it's really upsetting—

exactly, yeah—

the person.

But I think what people don't understand is if you teach the dog to do something instead, still doesn't fix the problem.

No.

Like, if you teach the dog to I don't know, sit instead of barking at you for stuff, you're going to have a dog still constantly asking to do something.

And barking.

Yeah, you're gonna get a dog that's sitting all the time because they're still always needing to do stuff, and then they're going, right, well, this doesn't work, I'm gonna bark at them.

Oh yeah, find me something else.

What else can I do? So I always say to people, I'm like, it's just communication. You need to figure out why the dog is always needing play and attention and food and all this. Once you fix that you won't care. You actually like that they bark because you're not going to miss it. Yeah, I love that Pearly barks because I— we never have any misunderstanding. I always know when she needs stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I would always say barking is the most misunderstood.

That's a good one. I feel like, oh, what am I gonna pick now?

Don't worry, it's not a competition.

No, I know. What the hell am I gonna pick now? But what was the question again? A misunderstood—

yeah, a behavior that's really misunderstood in dogs.

I think me— I think probably I'd go with, um, uh, jumping up. Oh yeah, I think that's a really misunderstood one. Yeah, because there's so many reasons why a dog could be jumping up. Yeah, but again, the same as barking, everyone just thinks jumping up is a bad thing. Um, I actually encourage my dogs to jump up on me, um, like depending on the situation, but they don't tend to jump at me or anybody else because of that.

I had this exact conversation with Amelia because I do it too. All the dog trainers I talk to love it when their dogs jump up, encourage it.

I think especially in play, like, it's the best part.

Yeah, but I, I think, I think honestly, I think, I think a lot of people from like TV and social media have been shown this like image of like what a dog should look like by some people, and like if the dog doesn't fit that, we've got work to do.

Yeah.

But then when I talk to dog trainers they love the jumping up, they love the barking.

I don't think I've met a dog trainer that's got a dog that hasn't got like loads of character like that. Yeah, and a lot of other people, somebody else might say naughty, I call it character. Oh, I don't know a dog trainer that doesn't have a dog that's a bit like that.

I mean, not to start any controversy, but I find a lot of balanced dog trainers, their dogs don't have a lot of character.

Okay, fair. Have you met many balanced trainers' dogs? Yeah.

I used to live— I used to— no, I don't know their names. I used to live in a place called Yeovil, which is like half hour that way. Yeah, um, grubby place, grubby trainers. Um, yeah, they're just like— I haven't worked with many or I spent much time with them, but I, I, I— there was a walk I went on where I always saw the balance trainers, right? Um, and they're always the dog. They are sat in heel the whole time they're talking, and obviously when they're walking, they're with tools, and they're just— the life isn't in the dog. Yeah, they've de-dogged the dog, presumably, as well, because, um, in defense of them—

not that— no, that's fine, like, but in defense in the— in a different aspect. So I've only worked with or hung out with or spent time with balance trainers that are more like in the sport dog world. Yeah, I think maybe for for them it's a little bit different than like the pet dog type.

Oh no, 100%, because in the sport world it's all about play.

Yeah. Oh, and I think even the balanced ones know that, but then there's definitely like the pet type.

Yeah, yeah, I'm— yeah, I'm definitely on about pet dog trainers. Yeah, people that do sports with dogs. This is the thing, even like even when people do like gundog training, which I've seen a lot of, um, a lot of them use slip leads because simply it's easy to just let the dog off the slip lead. They don't have a collar that will get caught on things or whatever.

Yeah, like there are people that use tools and maybe they use a bit of corrections and everything.

And I mean, like, in, in some situations, like, that's not going to have this detrimental effect on a dog.

No.

Um, and they're working the dog, the dog's having a great life. Some people do go overboard with it. Um, like Amelia was saying, when we went to Crufts, she got denied from gundog training because they found out she was a balanced, uh, a force-free dog trainer.

She got done up by Crufts?

No, like, uh, she— when she first got a golden retriever, she wanted to take her, the dog gundog training. Oh, and, um, they didn't let her in because she—

you're joking. Was that a club or, uh, just, just a very traditional gun?

Yeah, but she said— she did say like when she looked more on their website and stuff, they were very heavy on—

yeah, like there's some that are just awful. I mean, they don't have qualif— some of them don't have qualifications or anything. They're just—

it's not bad. This is a really funny thing. Most of the time it's not balanced. This is why I find the name—

this is the compulsion.

Yeah, it's just like, it's like 90% punishment, and then it's odd, like, oh look, we are still rewarding kind of thing. But I'm like, I like— I've reacted to some videos and I put it on social media because there are some that pop up where you're like, someone needs to say something about this. Yeah, like some of the dogs you see just look dead, and I'm like, there's no character.

Yeah, and in with Gundogs as well, the only thing, um, the only reason why they in these situations why they actually look like they've got some character is because they do get the reinforcement of going and actually working.

Most reinforcing thing.

Look at them, they're so happy. And it's like, yeah, that's not because of you though. It's because of the pheasant.

Yeah, 100%. But I, um, oh, where is this actually? Talking of working dogs, so I, I went to a talk at the end of last year, uh, this guy, this guy called Ken— I forgot his second name, I don't even know if I can pronounce it, to be honest. So, um, he is a— he's not a dog behaviourist, he's an animal behaviourist. So he's worked with elephants, He's worked with sea lions, but he does mostly dog stuff. Like, he, he led the, um, the search and rescue dogs in 9/11, Hurricane Katrina. Um, he helped find a load of, um, turtle eggs on the beaches of America when there was that oil spill. Oh, um, they, they wanted— they, they— because it was an emergency, because they were all going to hatch and go out into the oil, uh, they got thousands and thousands of people to find the eggs. And they're— some of them are buried like a few feet under the sand. They found like 15,000 eggs. He was on the board, and he got denied at first, but he managed to get, um, permission to use dogs to find the eggs. And because of his background, he knew lots of people that did search and rescue stuff and tracking. Um, he had a week to find the people, train the dogs to find turtle eggs, and then go and find eggs. And the coastline was like longer than the UK. It was like, it was like, it was like, I think it was like the whole of Florida.

How many did he find, did you say?

So spent a couple days, a day finding people. Everyone came together, they spent like a day or two training the dogs to find the eggs, 'cause they had to get some eggs from the people that were doing it. This was like the government, by the way. Like, they were in cahoots with fucking NASA. Like, this was a huge thing.

That's cool.

The dogs, in the space of 4 days, I think it was— By the way, I think I'm pretty sure— I don't know the numbers exactly. It wasn't a lot of dogs. I'm pretty sure it was like 10, 11 dogs they had. But over the space of 4 days, working for hours and hours every day, they found like another 45,000 eggs. Those dogs must have been absolutely whacked. Yeah, but dude, like, it's so, so cool. But so that's some of the stuff this guy does. So what we're just talking about— oh yeah, balanced dog training and working dogs. So of course, like, a dog will still work even if there are some punishment involved. For example, like military dogs, police dogs, some of those are very still— and this is like in America, by the way— some of those are still very heavy on the punishment. So this guy throughout his life has basically done his own studies at some of the stuff he's gone around America doing. And he's been invited to work with service dogs, narcotic dogs, explosive dogs, dogs that are meant to find bombs. And basically what he's done to give them advice is basically just turn that organisation from traditional to force-free. So positive reinforcement only. And they found— so the bomb-detecting dogs, you kind of want them to do their job right. Uh, this was over 3 different organizations, 218 dogs over 18 months. Their accuracy went from 74% to 97%.

Wow.

Just because— just by removing the punishment.

That's because it's enthusiasm, isn't it?

It is, because there are study after study on humans as well. They're like, if you're punished for not doing something right, you're not going to be motivated to keep going, and there's more stress involved. But like narcotics dogs, 2 organizations, 71 dogs over 12 months, accuracy went from 86% to 94%.

Wow.

Um, service dogs, uh, one organisation, 23 dogs based on a 3-month evaluation across departments, after 1 year of training changes, um, 8 older dogs, the use of corrections was reduced by 57% and their accuracy went from 72% to 92%.

That is mad. That's like almost 100%.

Isn't it? That's like unreal. Like, it's mental.

I'd love to— I'd love to, um, obviously I wouldn't like to be there and watch it all, but I'd love to have actually see the training process, like the before and after, like how much punishment was being used and what for.

Yeah. Um, oh, sorry, I've just seen this.

Yeah.

Um, with the service dogs, uh, they got 50 new dogs, so the ones they've got no history of any being punished, they had an average accuracy of 99%.

Wow, that's mental, isn't it?

Unreal. And, uh, it's not—

I'd love to know what they were punished for. Like, were they punished for getting it wrong?

Well, I'm going— I'm literally just going off memory here, um, but because people did ask, I'm pretty sure he said that a lot of it is simply not even related to the job, it's the obedience. So like, they just have a prong collar on and they need to be like, they need to be in stays. Yeah, um, yeah, because like the actual work, I mean, I doubt they'd have corrected anything. Um, but also the life expectancy of the dogs, uh, increased by 2 years.

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

Yeah, it's unreal.

Um, stress is a killer.

It is, bro, it is. And like, stress is like a good thing. I think this is what people forget. Stress is just like sports mode, but But to be in that mode all the time, all the time, that's dreadful. That's a brain— a body's not meant to do that. Stress is for like doing crazy mad stuff. Like when, when she destroys toys, she is in a place of stress, but it's like, yeah, it's healthy.

Yeah. Whereas all training is stressful for a dog. Like they've done studies on that as well. Yeah. Even if you use all positive, it's— the dog still experiences stress, but it's just not that. Yeah.

I think, yeah, people forget stress is just like sports mode.

Yeah.

But as long as the dog can come out of it, as long as the dog can decompress and it doesn't start creating issues, then it's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, okay. Um, I really need a wee.

Sorry.

So we are going to be playing Would You Rather.

Okay.

So we have to pretend we are in a reality where it is one or the other. Some of these are I mean, not life-changing, but some of these are going to be stressful to pick between. But we have to pick a one— pick— we have to pick one and then just say why we've done it.

Okay, what are we writing down? Which one we like? Which one would rather?

Yeah, so the first one: would you rather have a dog who loves training or a dog who doesn't need training?

That one's really easy for me.

I think I know what one you've picked.

Yeah, we're different, aren't we? I'm like, uh, like in the sporty world, and you're in like the let's go for a nice walk and come home and chill.

I'm, I'm, I'm a very pet dog, pet dog owner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't— although like Could you, could you call the enrichment that I do with my dogs training?

Yeah, it's like you do like breed-specific outlets and stuff, don't you? You're quite hot on that. So yeah, but I think— I don't know whether you actually— whether that answer is right for you.

Do you think?

I think— I'm sorry, I'm going to tell you that you're, you're wrong. Yeah, I think you do more.

If we count— yeah, if we're counting breed-specific work that I do with my dogs, then I would say the other answer.

I just think it would be the only person that wants a dog that does no— it's just an old granny. It's boring, isn't it? Like, it's so boring, isn't it?

I get a lot of my enjoyment watching my dogs work out on walks. Yeah, because they're always tracking and digging and doing stuff like that. So yeah, interesting.

Um, that was a good one.

Okay, would you rather Your dog always comes back or never left your side. Do you want a rubber, by the way?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think a dog that always stays by your side is—

oh, I just—

boring.

Oh yeah, I'd be like, get away from me.

Yeah, but it's what like so many people want. I know, because so many people talk about misunderstood behaviors— dogs exploring and doing dog stuff. People, I just, I just don't want him to do it.

And I'm like, yeah, they want them at their side.

But like, yeah, the more your dog is by your side, the more they're going to be awake at home. They're going to be frustrated. Yeah, they're probably going to obsess over dogs because you've got to stay on this path. What's the only thing on the path? Other people's dogs.

Yeah, I don't know, I just feel like people want their dog to be obsessed with them. I just think, what is— what Why?

Yeah, no, I, um, I like having a sighthound. I like a dog that really doesn't need me. I think a terrier is a really nice in-between.

Yeah, to be fair, she does stick to me quite closely, but I think I've been quite hot on her from day one because I've been scared of her prey drive.

Yeah, I think it's also like, I think it's also trickier to piss off and do your own thing as a smaller dog as well because like they'll lose you a lot quicker, whereas Enzo can be quite a way away from me and catch up very quickly. Yeah, part of me— because like Purdy, if I'm walking like my normal pace, I find most of the time Purdy just doesn't even bother going off into the woods.

Yeah, I need to keep up with you.

If I slow down, then, uh, it starts wandering off. Yeah, but a lot of time I'm not on the path anyway. I'm just like in the middle of a woods, sat on a tree stump. I could sit— like, I've sat on a tree stump before for like half an hour straight. and my dogs are just around this area.

Oh yeah, I do all the time.

Yeah, I'm like, what is in this area?

Shredding up logs and stuff like that.

Yeah, well, they don't quite do that because they're not terriers.

What was my Labrador that does that?

Oh, oh yeah, okay. Would you rather have a dog who's perfect at home but struggles outside, or perfect outside or struggles at home?

This one is quite an easy one, I feel.

I'm not gonna look at yours.

I think we're gonna be opposite.

Yeah, really?

Yeah, because you're having a baby. Yeah, no, I think because you're, you're at home the majority of your time. Like, somebody once said to me Oh, if your dog's naughty for, you know, 2 walks a day, that's like 10% of their day. I suppose being a pillock at home, I just— I'm so much more.

But for me, a dog that struggles outside is a lot more stressful. I feel like there's a lot more variables that can go wrong.

Yeah, it's a catchphrase. That is a hard one.

It is a really hard one.

That's the only reason why I put that one was because of the time thing. I thought, if I— if you're annoying me, yeah. All the time at home. I don't think—

yeah, I suppose. I think the, the reason why I prefer dogs that struggle at home is just because I, I have a lot of enrichment ideas that can take a very long time. Yeah, like I like doing free work, which is where I just like fill my garden with like pasta pots, cardboard boxes, bones, whatever. And it's like, it's not just scatter feeding and investigating. There'll be like a bone they could take off and chew for 20 minutes, and then they come back and then go— it could be an activity that's done for like over an hour straight. And I can just be sat in my living room.

Yeah. So how long does it take you to set them up?

Free work, not long. I literally just chuck things about. Like when you start using things like towels— oh God, do a towel— like you literally put food in the grass, put a towel on top, put food on top of another towel on top of that. Like that, that alone is like 15-20 minutes because as they move around the towel, it covers and rolls and does stuff. Like, that's brilliant.

And do you do both your dogs together? Like, would you release them both together and they'd— yeah, they would be like going for their separate ways and yeah.

But I don't really do much enrichment with my dogs anyway because we're always out doing enrichment out there. Yeah, but I mean, it saves— it saves us. Like, like with the hot weather coming, I'll do free work like in my house. So I'd like— we'll have like a shorter walk in the morning and then I'll do some sort of searching stuff at home. Yeah, but I also— I do— oh yeah, you are right, life would be boring if I didn't have dogs that like training because yeah, I do— I like doing searching activities. Yeah. Uh, Enzo— Purdy's not on indication yet, uh, but like, I think next to you there's a jam jar lid, or maybe up there. Um, but there's a metal washer there.

Oh, and you're doing a freeze indication?

Yeah. So, so Enzo will like search a room, indicates that he's found a, like, a jam jar lid.

Yeah.

And then drops some treats, and then we do it again. But he loves it. It's so good. And it's just nice to have like a one-on-one activity. And it's also nice to like show a dog that like when you're on a lead like good stuff can happen. I think too many people spend their whole life showing dogs that like nothing good comes from being on a lead. Yeah, like, oh, when you're on this lead, walk slowly next to me and you'll get food. But like my dogs, like when Enzo sees his like harness especially, he knows it's work time.

Yeah.

And like he loves it, and it's like a lead to him is like an open door to different activities because like that, that's when we do tracking, that's when we do scent detection. Uh, and sometimes they do just incorporate with play. Yeah, like it's so good to like pop a lead on. Oh look, fun stuff is happening, amazing stuff. Oh, do you want to walk with me for 10 seconds? Oh amazing. You let the lead off and the dog's like, why is it stopped? Yeah, what the fuck are you doing?

Put that lead back on me now.

Exactly. Yeah. So like whenever I got people that are like struggling with a little bit of drive from the dog to focus, I'm just like, just get it meaning good stuff. Like, you don't just like try, you just like, you make that lead and harness mean great things. So that's just what we do before searching stuff. And find me a dog that doesn't like searching, all right?

I know, I know.

Yeah, like, even if you bring me a Collie, mate, that dog will love using that nose. Like, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I love scent work, it's the best.

Would you rather do obedience training With a beagle or a whippet?

Whoa.

Okay.

I think because a whippet— For obedience, you need enthusiasm, motivation, don't you? Right. And I— the reason why I picked Beagle is because I thought they're at least mental for food. Yeah, but I could try and manipulate it.

So yeah, so this is why I picked these two breeds, because the Beagle is more likely to have the drive for the food and everything else as well, but they'll have a lot less enthusiasm to do obedience. Yeah, whereas a Whippet will like to do the obedience, whereas the reinforcers a lot of the time are a bit arousing.

Yeah, I feel like I can't see a— I mean, there's Whippets that do obedience.

Oh no, I'm sure there is.

Oh, sorry, Donna, made you jump.

I think I also just picked the Whippet because that's like one of my favorite breeds.

Yeah, I, um, I'm a bit scared of Whippets. I'm scared I'm gonna break them.

Really? Oh yeah, they do seem really fragile. Not, not anything like, uh, Italian Greyhounds. Yeah, I saw a woman the other day with 4 of them, and they're like— they're basically be like her but with no muscle and somehow—

yeah, they're like skin and bone, aren't they?

I don't know how they're so fast. I've never seen one that's like muscly.

I just, I just think I can't imagine cuddling that on the sofa.

No. Yeah, I mean, Enzo's nice to cuddle, but—

oh yeah, Enzo's skinny, isn't he?

Yeah, but he's not like—

it's not like skin and skin and skinny. Yeah.

But he does have, he does have sharp edges, I will say that.

I'd be like, oh, you're bony, you bony rib cage, literally digging into me.

But there's nothing better than watching a Sighthound run though.

Oh yeah, I bet.

Watching them move, yeah, it's just phenomenal.

Yeah, I think watching any breed do what they were made for is the best.

I literally, the best start of my day was seeing that little thing walk in there. Analyse the room. I'm used to this place. Destroy stuff. It's so good.

Look at all his toys.

It's just like—

Cost loads of money.

No, it's fine. But I just like— I love seeing dogs' genetics at work.

Yeah, I do.

It is just fascinating. Like, when people ask me about like, oh, like, what's the best treat for my dog? And I'm like, there's going to be foods that they prefer, but but the most rewarding thing you can do is what that dog is made for. Yeah, the genetics will tell you. Like, even if you don't know the breed of the dog, experiment. Get different types of toys.

Yeah, I would say that as well. And generally, if you don't know what— because people say, oh, they're a, you know, crossbreed or whatever, I don't know what the dog— there's no such thing as a dog doesn't like scent work. Yeah, like you said. Yeah, there's no such thing. And also, I don't meet many dogs that don't like playing tug of war.

Yeah.

If you get them going with it. Sometimes it takes a bit.

I literally made a lesson up on the website the other day all about toy motivation, about how, how we can get a dog motivated in toys. And I used demonstrations on dogs that aren't motivated for toys. A lot of time is actually just because the toy itself isn't rewarding, is what, what the toy does.

Yeah.

And I think it's just the introduction to the toys. Dogs don't get very good ones, so I always tell people like, play with a dog like they're a cat. So we do something called the baby bird technique where you get, you get like, you get a toy that you can kind of hold like this. Like there's a toy up there somewhere which is like stretchy handle, fluffy bit, rubber ball. So it's a nice bit of different textures.

Yeah.

And you just treat like a baby bird and the dog tries to sniff it.

You're like, no, what are you doing? Oh, fair. Yeah. What are you doing? Is that called the baby bird technique?

Yeah, because you treat like a baby bird. Yeah, yeah.

You're like, oh, what's this? And then you're like, no, you can't have it. Yeah, you're not allowed it.

And like, and you— it is teasing the dog. It's to feel that frustration. Yeah, and you're just like, what? That's so naughty. What are you doing? And when they go and get it, like, maybe you put it on the floor for a second, you're like, no. And oh my God, they think that has the most valuable thing ever.

Yeah, it's actually the opposite to how most people actually teach their dog to resource guard as well when it comes to stuff at home.

Yeah.

Then they go, oh no, you're not allowed this. Like, it creates that novelty of it which makes them want it even more.

And then, but when people try and play with their dog they just get a toy and put it out in front.

Yeah, here you go, have it straight away.

Yeah, so it looks like— yeah, that's what we do the opposite of. But honestly, like, like Enzo's never really had much drive for toys. The only time he's ever really played with toys is when he's already been aroused, and I'll be able to get like a fluffy toy out and he'll play for like 5 minutes and that's it. But with the baby bird technique, I was like, you know, I'm going to use you as a demo dog. I have drove this dog crazy for toys in the last couple weeks. He walks in here and if he sees that fucking toy, he is instantly— his legs go wide because he's ready to go either direction.

I feel like every dog's got it in them. It just— you've got to be— you've got to experiment to get it out.

Yeah, I— what is basically— I mean, it's a long lesson, there's loads more to it, but yeah, baby bird technique to build that curiosity and get them doing it. And then you play with your dog like they're a cat. So I always— because they're all predatory animals. Play with the dog like they're a cat.

So it's lots of like, I'm moving away.

Yeah, yeah, always toy moving away, moving away, moving away. Little bits of frustration, cheekiness. Oh, and you just get that curiosity. And then when the dog's playing, that's when you experiment. Like, do they like tug? Like, Enzo doesn't like tug. Um, I've got a really funny slow-mo video of him, uh, re-biting constantly. So like, as soon as I remove that tension, he doesn't re-bite once. He will just bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite bite!

He likes like snapping at it?

He likes to fucking always change where it is in his mouth. And he does this— Like, he doesn't like any— As soon as I start tugging, he kind of holds it and then lets me have it a little bit.

Yeah, he's probably so polite, isn't he?

He just really wants to play with it but he wants me to be involved. Whereas Ernie the Doberman, not a crazy fan for the fluffy toys. He likes the firmer ones and he will just hold it. I have videos of him falling asleep with it in his mouth. I, I, if I stand still and I don't ask him to let go, he will never let go of that toy. He just, yes, yes, yeah. And it's hilarious. And I'm like, that's just genetics. Yeah, that is a Doberman. And if I let go of that, he goes, oh, spits it out and looks at me. He doesn't want to take it off and kill it like Enzo does.

Yeah.

And I'm just like, oh, So cool.

I love it. I love it. I love play. But yeah, you're right, I've never heard of it being called the— what was it?

The baby bird.

Baby bird. And then play like a cat.

Yeah, play like a cat.

I say to people, um, like, you, you remember that you're practicing the part of the predatory sequence, and there's no such thing as a rabbit that just comes and jumps into your dog's mouth. So why are you putting your toy in your dog's mouth like that? And they're like, get that out of my face.

No, exactly. I, I always use— did you call it the predatory sequence? Yeah, I like that, that's shorter. I've always just called it the predatory motor pattern.

Oh, I've never even heard of it being called like that.

Really?

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, no, I call it pattern because a motor pattern, like, even when you look, when you look at like all science really, when you look at like how neurons are laid out, it's, it's like a motor pattern.

Yeah.

Um, but it's the word before is different.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah, I've always called it predatory sequence. Is quicker. I like that. I'm going to use that all the time now. So yeah, I always teach people about the predatory sequence. And when we start playing with toys or doing work with food, I'm like, there are behaviours that your dog loves. How can we make this food or this toy trigger that behaviour? And now all of a sudden, that's the most reinforcing. Yeah, you can't just— you— I mean, you can just give a dog food, but maybe that dog would like to catch the food or chase the food or sniff for the food. That would be way better.

It makes all the difference as well, doesn't it? People can't believe it. Yeah.

And it's stuff that like the dog would do forever. Like whenever I teach people breed-specific jobs, they're like, I think it's going to get bored of doing— I get asked it way more than I thought I ever would now, now I'm online. But people like, when they don't get bored of doing it every day, because I say to them, I'm like, your dog, like, like don't be afraid to do this for a good like hour a day, like, or more. Like if you want to do like a couple or a few 20-minute sessions a day, put it in your walks and whatever.

Or every— do it every single day.

Yeah. And they're always like, "Will you not get bored?" I'm like, "No." I was like, "You have a Doberman and you have a bite toy.

This dog's never getting bored of this." Like, that's what they're made to do every day.

Yeah, as long as you play it right and the dog is getting to practice those behaviors, they always associate that with the toy, and they'll never get bored of those behaviors because there's nothing else to a dog's life. They don't have Netflix, they don't have drugs. Like, the best drug ever is the behavior that's in that predatory motor pattern. They, they, they, they, they just beg for it. And I always use like breed-specific behavioral issues as an example. I'm like, it's not a surprise when someone's got a cockapoo who's stealing socks around the house, or someone's collie is chasing cars.

Yeah, like, so you literally—

yeah, you've made videos on it, just—

yeah, I did, didn't I?

Guessing people's dogs.

Yeah, and everyone was like, oh my God, yeah, how did you know that? And it was I'm not a magician.

It's just, this is what happens. And that just means your dog's frustrated. Yeah, they're just trying to do what makes them feel good.

Yeah, I think I'm so passionate about breed-specific outlets and stuff like that. I think because for, for me as a dog trainer, the majority of problems that come to me are because they just haven't had their pure frustration, their needs met.

Same with those dogs in the shelter you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, that's all it is. And then you do that, and then you might need to do a bit of training because they've found something else reinforcing. Yeah, they've sort of learned that, but it's so much easier. Whereas a lot of people, they'll go, 'I tried this, I tried this, I tried this,' and they've tried loads of stuff and they have worked hard on it, but they've been training stuff and you can't— it's like you're fighting a losing battle.

Oh yeah, you can't train frustration out of a dog.

No.

Yeah, no, it's, it's like— I love how you also haven't asked about these boxes with question marks on them. No, I haven't actually. Yeah, this was something that I was filming um, of like a workshop I'm doing of like loads of different activities I'm going to be making. Um, right, I'm really excited for it. But yeah, the whole point of this whole workshop is just to show people how much they can change their dog with enrichment, because like it is nuts. Yeah, it's mental. Like all the issues Enzo had— so like, and when I rescued Enzo, he does— this is gonna sound mental he has the same behavior problems now as when I first got him. He still chases everything, just not obsessively.

Yeah, so it's just—

yeah, like I've always said to people, like, I'm never gonna stop Enzo from chasing squirrels. That's impossible. If I always try and stop that, in my eyes, I'm always gonna have a naughty dog. But what you can get rid of is that just obsession, that frustration, and the restlessness. And as soon as all that's gone, because you've enriched the dog's life, you've given them outlets, then the dog's trainable. And when the dog does need to listen to recall, they'll listen.

Yeah, because they're like, they actually learn then, can't they? It's not like they're in a state of like, oh, 100%. Yeah, can't even think straight.

Yeah, it's like when people go through so much training and they come to this conclusion of like, oh, my dog can't be trained with positive reinforcement, I need to use tools. I'm like, you are right and wrong. Like The reason why you haven't been able to train your dog is because your dog's not trainable. But that doesn't mean your only option is now use tools, because yeah, of course you're going to see results when you start using tools, because what dog isn't going to behave when the result of doing the opposite is getting hurt or scared? Yeah, so of course that dog will behave. But the reason why you didn't see results when you were training the dog with just food and toys is because you're trying to train a dog that's fucking stressed.

It's like the dog's head is in like Mars or somewhere.

Like, yeah, your dog's in another country. Yeah, yeah. Like, dog is always, always, always just like filled with adrenaline. So of course that dog is not going to walk slowly next to you for some food.

Yeah.

And when people hear that, they're like, huh?

Yeah.

But I think the, the biggest issue is everyone just thinks about training. So if this type of training doesn't work, then it must be the other type of training. But people are forgetting that.

Yes, if there's just two types.

Yeah, but the, the pedestal that it all sits on is the dog. Like, the dog is everything. So if your dog is struggling, you're gonna always struggle. Yeah, you're gonna always be training the dog. Yeah, people are just managing their dogs all the time. Yeah, not actually solving anything. And that's another sentence when I say it, people are like, yeah, no, actually I do feel like I'm just managing them.

I'm like, yeah.

Because training is just the management of a behavior. You're not solving it.

Yeah, it literally is.

Yeah, it's, it's do this, don't do that. It's just management.

Yeah.

What are we doing about like that bit underneath? That's where that whole don't be doggy dog thing comes from. That came from—

yeah, I do love that saying.

It came from a live stream.

That's very good.

I was on a live stream and I was talking about this whole topic and someone said, don't be doggy dog. And I was like, stealing, stealing that.

Trademark it. Trademark. Yeah, no, it's good. I love it. It's very good.

Thanks. Okay. Would you rather— Oh, yeah, this is a good one. Would you rather live in a city with a border collie or a cocker spaniel? Oh.

Yeah, I know the answer to this.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, like, I'm really torn because I could make both of them work. Yeah, I'm good. Collie as well.

Yeah, I think because city— I mean, I've never lived in a city, so I don't know what it's like, but I presume—

I was in London the weekend. So stressful. I can't do it. This— so people don't say hi to you when they walk past. It's something I can still— I still can't get over it. It's so weird, the amount of fucking people I nod to, say hi, say You're right.

There's too many of them that they walk past, that's why.

But like, even in like quieter places, it's just like everyone is so used to just like, did you say morning or hello to them? So many people.

And what was the reaction?

Nothing. People don't look, don't say a thing. And I'm like, the fuck? I felt like I was, um, what was that movie? Was it Crocodile Dundee? Where is this? Oh, is this Australia? It's this movie, old movie. It's a guy from the Outback Australia goes to New York City and there's a scene of him walking down New York saying hello to everybody.

Um, and everyone's just taking their notes.

But that's me, that's me in London. It's, it's wild. Yeah, like, people over there are aliens.

I couldn't live in a city just because it's too busy. I think I'll just—

I like, so loud.

I like my solitary.

I do. When I got off the train in Castle Cary, it's about half hour from me, I looked around, I was like, wow, breathe. Oh, I think this is so nice. And people were like looking around. Everyone in London is like Yeah, that or that. And walking fast. People suck. I don't know, I don't know how people like sit fast. I feel like people are waiting faster, do you know what I mean? Like, you see someone at a bench, you see their rushy brains. Yeah, chill out, bro. Yeah, but yeah, dude, I got there, I was like, oh my God, I was like, this is just the life. I was like, this is brilliant. I got off the train, the person that was coming on the train, we said hi to each other. I literally got off, I was like, you're right, you're right. But no, on the tube No, all these people—

no, you won't.

No one.

I haven't been to London in ages, to be fair. I don't like it.

Um, sorry, back to dogs. Um, yeah, you were saying something.

Um, the reason why I picked Border Collie over Cocker Spaniel— that was the options, wasn't it?

Yep.

Because I feel like on a needs basis, I feel like I could probably meet a Border Collie's needs more in a small space than I could have.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

Cocker Spaniel needs a bit of space.

Yeah, and I said Cocker Spaniel especially because they're also bred for flushing, which is why they have that tendency of doing big circles out on walks. They do have a bit more of a need to run. Yeah, um, but the reason why I did put a retrieving dog is because you can still provide for a retrieving dog relatively easily because, I mean, you can hide things around your house.

I mean, if it was a Labrador, probably would have picked Labrador.

Yeah, yeah, 100%, because that's just like half a Cocker Spaniel.

Yeah, yeah, just to retrieve, not the hump part of it and the Circling.

But yeah, I mean, it's, um, but like, I've, I've, I've, there's this one client, forgot her name. The dog's name, I know her name. When I say client, I always refer to the dog. I don't know why. I forgot the client's name. I know the human's name.

Um, oh, I usually remember the dog's name and not the human's name.

Yeah, no, same. Oh, so that's why I'm surprised. No, no, yeah, but that's why I'm surprised I can't remember her name. But the dog is a cocker spaniel, right? Um, and when she started doing search and retrieve all the time with that dog, life in that city chilled out because she was able to work that dog's ass off around the house. Like, I thought we'd just go up 3 flights of stairs and be searching upstairs and going, fuck, I got it! Just brings it back and runs. And I'm like, that's why, like, retrieving dogs are great. Like, if you live in a city, retrieving dog's not a bad shout.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you could do it.

Yeah, you really A Pharaoh Hound though. I always imagine if I lived in a city and I got Enzo, I just think that would have been really—

what would you do?

Oh dude, that would have been a hard job. That dog needs— but like, Enzo, the last year has slowed down a bit. He's about like 8 years old. But like, dude, like the first like 3 years of having him, my God, that dog was a monster. Like, the first 7 months is when I had all the behavioural issues. Like, after that, he was— he's a very enjoyable dog to have. But like, the first few years, I had to do 4 hours a day. If I doubt— of walking outside. Yeah.

Oh geez.

I like that. Like, that's how long we're out for now. Now I can do between like 3 and 4, and like, he's easy. Like, if even if I have to do less, I can still do some work at home. But he just— like, the type of work that dog needed was fucking unbelievable. Like, I was every day wondering how this body can keep moving.

Like, how much did you have to feed him to keep up with it?

So much.

Yeah, I bet.

So much. I had a client with a 52-53 kilo Rottweiler, and Enzo is 23 kilos, and he eats twice as much as that Rottweiler.

Wow.

Half the weight, twice as much food. Unbelievable. It was like— Enzo, I don't know if all Pharaoh Hounds are like this. I would assume so from the behavioral issues people have with those things on the Facebook groups that I've seen. Um, but like, the Pharaoh Hounds are bred for like long, long-distance hunting, so they're scent and sight hounds. Um, so yeah, this dude like just kept— could kept going, like just a specimen. And I think if I lived in a city with him, the amount I would be exhausted with the amount of enrichment I'd have to do at home. Yeah, because I couldn't see even like big parks in London. I, I just— I could see that being really stressful. Yeah, but I think for Enzo, going outside would have to be the calm time and home would have to be the crazy time. Yeah, like I'd have to go out and just do like street walks, shopping centers, everything's just about sniffing, investigating. Go out and do maybe searching stuff and like have some time off lead, but— and then at home would have to be the like chasing stuff, biting.

Yeah, yeah, because you couldn't get away with him being mad outside. No, there's not enough space for it because he's just so in tuned with—

it's not just see stuff and chase, it's I'm gonna track this thing, find where it lives, and then chase it. That's how they work. And, um, he'd run out of space, he'd hit a road somewhere, he'd be bored. Yeah. And like the first few years of having him, there were times where he did go a bit far. It'd get carried away, especially on that first 7 months. Uh, that was stressful. Yeah, but I mean, I just— for, for me though, he is the perfect dog. Like, I talk about him like he's a monster, which he is, but like, he was a monster. No, he was, but I still always thought he was perfect. Like, yeah, for me, that's my— like, I, I've always thought like sighthounds, scent hounds, terriers, for me, are like proper dogs. A lot of people think proper dogs are like the Shepherds and like the Mastiffs, like the big cool hard ones, like the bully breeds and stuff. But for me, it's the dogs that find things and are just like—

So you're talking about me?

God, I'm actually in love with your dog. I need to stop looking at her.

I'm talking about me.

Okay, would you rather have a dog that never pulled on a lead or never run off? Meaning that they always run off but don't pull, or pull on lead all the time but don't run off. That's, uh, this is really easy for me.

Yeah, because I don't actually really ever walk my dogs on lead. Is that the same one?

You'd rather they pulled?

Yeah, yeah, and never run off? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, what's happened here?

Yeah, there are, because I mean I mean, Enzo has been on lead outside of this unit, uh, twice this year so far. So I mean, like, I couldn't care less if Enzo pulled on lead.

Yeah, oh, you don't need that back, do you? Yeah, I just— yeah, I just don't really spend much time on lead. It's boring to me. Yeah, like, it's rubbish.

Yeah, that's why I can't do city life. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Enzo is literally on lead to do searching activities.

Yeah, yeah.

Because like, because he's so— because like, the, the only thing I've actually taught Enzo— when, when you come to like, same with Little Sausage's dog Purds, when you talk about like traditional training, like obedience, the only thing my dogs know is recall. My dogs don't even know sit or stay.

I always say to people, you don't actually need to teach your dog anything except recall for them to be well behaved.

Exactly.

It's the only thing you need.

Because like, because it goes back to what we talk about just now. If your dog's fine, but they're not frustrated, hyperactive through the roof, ill, stressed, anxious— if they're not any of those, well then you don't need to constantly control them because your dog's not out of control.

Yeah.

So the only thing you do need is recall for when you're going a different way, your dog's wandered off. But like, if your dog's not in any of those states, walks are great, home time's great, training is fun. You don't have to control them, you don't have to punish them, control them, bribe them, distract them. Like, yeah, so the only thing a dog does need is recall. Yeah, I always try and tell people, I'm like, literally, it's all you need.

And if you don't—

if you never plan on letting your dog off lead, you don't even need recall.

You don't even need anything. Yeah, honestly, that's what I was just about to say. The most well-behaved dogs like I have sometimes met are dogs that they haven't done a day's training in their life. Yeah, they're just out with like dad walking about, yeah, going to work and yeah, coming back.

I always use the example of, um, like, like hypothetical— we've all seen them that old lady on a walk with a border collie. Yeah, why is that dog perfect? Yeah, yeah. But I bet she's just out for hours every day and like, and she's still— and she's so laid back. Like, she— dog does dog stuff. Like, dog learns from experience and like with time the dog becomes perfect. But yeah, everyone's so— day one is like, dog needs to be perfect.

Yeah. And like there's so much training, so much control, all that pressure, and it just makes it worse.

So yeah, so much worse. Okay. Would you rather have a— Oh, wait, no, I said that. Would you rather a dog always listened to stay or always controlled their own impulses? Wow, you're thinking about this. Yeah, because I feel like That's hard, that one, because yeah, I suppose you probably use stay. I don't. Like I said, my dogs don't know stay. Wow.

I think because then it's on— it's up to me. I can, I can choose when I want it and when I don't, I suppose. You know what I mean?

But you could just use recall. Are you talking about like if your dog chases stuff or when you're working with the dog?

Both. Any— everything really, I suppose. Yeah, because sometimes I want my dogs to act on impulse. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Whereas if I do it, if it's on cue, then I can choose when it's on or off.

Yeah, so my dogs practice Acme Impulse on a daily basis, so yeah, I mean, they always do it, but I'm never really putting them in situations where it's unsafe to. Yeah, um, and like, they don't really have— they don't have dog obsessions, people obsessions, they don't chase cars. Um, cats, dangerous cats, they control their impulses around, but that's because I've never let them practice it. So like, I've always recalled them from cats, so they have this association of like, see cat, dad's good.

Yeah, that's me with her and rabbits.

Really?

So scared about her going down a hole. Yeah, so every time she's a— well, no, that's like, she would chase if I let her, but yeah, I've always called her, so she's not got to a point where she's like Um, no, 100%.

But yeah, I, I like recalling because the way I've taught recall has always been word equals good stuff rather than always run for me.

Yeah.

So like, to my dogs, recall is kind of like a marker word.

Yeah, well, it says really, isn't it?

Yeah, it was. Sometimes people just pair it with too much instruction, like it's always like they have to run, they have to sit, then they get reward. Whereas my dogs, I've always done like their name and like this tug boy, or they know their name and I throw food, their name and it's a chew. Like, it's just this word is associated with great stuff.

Yeah.

So yeah, they associate— see a cat, dad says one of those words. So they're like— but you can see them. Hey, Enzo kind of does this, he's like, fuck, I really want to go. But he's like, he knows good stuff is gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, it's so good.

Bless him.

Um, okay, would you rather your dog's behavioural issues? Oh, we've already done that. Would you rather a really small dog or a really big dog?

Are we talking extremes here? Yeah.

Biggest and smallest. Oh, actually, I don't know. I think I might want to change.

I'm really struggling with this one.

That's a hard one because there are pros to both.

They are more thinking there's cons to both. I'm thinking of all the cons.

Oh no, yeah, there are cons.

Wow, I'm stumped. I think I'm gonna have to Yeah, I'm—

I think I'm gonna stick. I'll go with what my original thought was. Oh, I went big! How can you— went small?

I am actually— I'm— it— surprisingly, I, even though I've got a little terrier, I am actually a big dog person. So I originally was thinking big dog. Yeah, but then I was thinking about, are we talking extremes? Like— oh, sorry. So sorry, um, I was hoping that was gonna hit you in the head. Um, yeah, if we were talking extremes, uh, like a big, big dog, oh, I just wouldn't be able to hold— I was thinking I won't be able to hold it, slobber.

Yeah, I was thinking slobber.

I just don't think I could handle that, whereas at least small, it's— she is a lot easier in a lot of ways. But yeah, also I'll be scared I'm going to break a really small dog.

Yeah, you see, for me, that's as small as I'd go. Like, my sausage dog is small, but I didn't really pick her. Yeah, I wouldn't get a sausage— I— no offense to Purdy, by the way, she's center of my world.

She'll be listening.

Yeah, I do love her, and I do love sausage dogs, but I'll never have a sausage dog again. Um, if they— if they're going to be small, I want them mighty.

Yeah, they need to be quite tough, don't they?

That's why I was lucky with Purdy, because she is built like that. She's got fucking quads on her. She's a rock. Like, she's 12. I don't know if people realize Purdy is 12, and she is out 4 hours a day with me and Enzo. And she's not a little sausage dog that plods along behind us. She's always running, always following smells, digging holes. And she's a gobshite. She's full of it. We don't— we think she was made in a lab. So that's why I love— I really love her.

She's a proper working one then. I think nowadays we see the ones that are just like little poncy ones.

So she's proper working. I think that's why she's got so many terrier tendencies as well. Yeah, like all I could do, all I need is get a tennis ball, tell her it's hidden in the garden somewhere, and she's off. And when she catches it, she's destroying it.

Good.

And she'll go and go. Her favorite thing is a football. It looks kind of awkward when she tries to kill it, but like, it's just nice. You can bite it anywhere and just rip bits.

How do you say that? She likes football as well, and I think it's just because the size of it and they can shake it around and she could just—

they could just get fucking mouthfuls.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So good. I love playing with football.

What did you pick again?

Big. Yeah, only because, yeah, I wouldn't really want like really, really small because I was thinking, I was like, it's nice because you can take them more places. Yeah, like if I ever wanted to travel in a van, which is something I'd like to do one day, easier with a really small dog.

Also behavioral problems. I know, I know, um, people hate me for saying this, but you can get away with behavior problems with a small dog.

Yeah, yeah, you can. Yeah, and the ladies like the smaller ones more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, I know you're taken, so, um, and you're not looking for ladies either. Although I feel like— do you feel like guys would like— yeah, yeah, I feel like what you're gonna say—

I feel like you would pass off as a lesbian or something. Excuse me?

No, I was gonna say, I feel like, I feel like if you're trying to attract guys, I feel like you'd have to get like a big dog. Yeah, yeah, like if I saw—

yeah, I think so. If like you need a GSD.

Yeah, I was just about to say, like if I saw a girl that was like out doing like cool training stuff with like a German Shepherd, I'll be like, I need to go talk to her.

Yeah, that's cool.

But yeah, no, I think, um, I'd have to go big dog. I just think because all I was imagining was like a situation like this, I'd like this just big head to be here and just like, hello.

Yeah, it's just a hard one, it, because it's extremes.

Yeah, it's hard.

If it was just regular, I'd just— it'd be easy for me to say big.

Yeah, but we are also more likely to see behavioral issues with a smaller one because when you get something like tiny dogs, so it's so hard for them not to be insecure. Yeah, a lot of them are just very unconfident dogs.

Yeah, don't blame him, to be fair.

Yeah, um, okay, I'm hoping she's not gonna have a wee. Shall I take her for a lap quick?

Shall I? Yeah, she's sniffing about, isn't she? Gee-wee! Yeah, she's sort of walking like—

that's fine. Yeah, yeah. Um, right, we're gonna do quickfire questions. Um, we've got about 10 minutes. Okay, so answer this as brief as possible.

Answer.

Um, okay, answer. Is it not answer?

Answer.

Fucking hell.

I don't know, this sounds—

this makes two of you now. When Amelia was over, I figured there were four words I've been saying wrong my whole life.

What were they?

Um, one of them was, um, I know I've forgotten how to actually say it again. I know this is wrong. Omegle. I don't know how to actually say—

I don't know what word that is.

Amygdala. Oh, it's part of the brain, the fear center of the brain. Amygdala. It's emig— Hayden will know. Anyway, right, answer these briefly, but then just, um, if you want to add it— if you want to add an explanation on the end, do it.

Okay.

But yeah, it'd be nice to make these into clips. Okay, so what is a, what is a quick fix that you've seen work in dog training but actually sets the dog up for fail in the long term?

Oh, that's a hard one because there's so many, because they don't work. No, I'm joking. Uh, no, they do work, don't they? But what quick Tricks that work. Sorry, I'm gonna think about that.

I mean, mine would be the classic of just like popping a tool on a dog and teaching loose lead walking, because a lot of these dogs—

does that work? I've never seen it work.

Well, yeah, like you pop a tool on and like people pop like a halti on a dog and like the dog doesn't really pull.

Oh, fair. Yeah, that's a good one. Can I use it?

It doesn't actually work. Yeah, because like the biggest issue with that in the long term is the novelty of it.

The dog's like, this feels different. Yeah. And then they get used to it and start pulling.

But also, a lot of the time these dogs are pulling on the lead because they're just hyperactive, frustrated dogs. And yeah, if that goes undealt with, in the long term you've got more issues.

Yeah, that's a very good one. I can't see them quick fix.

That's okay. Um, is there something you believe about dogs that most trainers would disagree with?

Uh, I believe that, that— yeah, I think I'm a big believer in— and you probably, you probably wouldn't disagree with me on this, I don't think, right? But I'm a big believer in dogs need more exercise than we give them. I think there's such a thing that dogs need, um, you know, an hour a day. Like, where did that come from, an hour a day? But I just don't think they do. And I feel like a lot of trainers now, I see them all say, dog doesn't need loads of exercise, they need mental stimulation, which I— that makes sense. Sense, but I do think they need loads of exercise as well.

Yeah.

And they need to roam.

Yeah. Um, that's why I always try and make outlets physical as well. Yeah. That's why, like, even when it comes to searching activities, I'm like, yeah, our goal is to make this area bigger and bigger and bigger.

Yeah.

So like, even if you're just doing around your house, it's a whole downstairs your house, the dog's always walking every day.

Yeah.

Like, even if it's just walking, it's great.

Like, you need to make— like, they've got to feel good.

Yeah. Well, um, this was— I mean, this was on humans. This is quite a recent thing but there was a recent study showing that when you exercise a muscle, it secretes— they're not amino acid. I think it might be a type of amino acid, but it's basically something that fights some of the key causes of things like depression and stress. So it secretes basically feel-good hormones and feelings and stuff. So yeah, like you need to get the muscles moving. And it's also good for longevity as well. Yeah, you don't want to season up.

No, that's true.

Yeah, you want to flex on everything.

I've got another one. Can I add another one? Yeah, that I've just thought of, uh, that a lot of trainers probably wouldn't agree with, is, uh, reactive dogs need a day off.

Oh yeah, yeah, too— yeah, yeah, too many dog trainers don't—

I think they really do not need to, like, make— oh, I'm thinking— I'm saying that— I think they don't need days off. I think they need days off like stress.

Oh yeah. Oh, is that what you meant?

No. Yeah, no. So I think people interpret it as reactive dogs need days off, as in just to sit at home.

Oh no, yeah.

I feel like those dogs actually need more than anything, they actually need exercise.

Oh, I thought you meant days off as like days of training. Days of training, or like when they have like a very arousing day, they need a day to decompress.

Yeah.

But like even when I tell people like, oh, this is a situation where dog needs to decompress. You still need to work the dog at home, you need to do stuff. Yeah, we just need to like avoid the triggers, especially today. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought that's what you meant. I was like, dogs need time to decompress. But yeah, yeah, no, I think my— one of my biggest pet peeves is when— because a lot of people like at the weekends they can take the dog out and they have big days and they're like, oh, we had a big day yesterday, so on Sunday they give the dog like a day off. And I'm like, You're like, keep the momentum going. Like, still take the dog out. Like, your dog will go every day.

Like, yeah, I think it's more they want the day off, isn't it?

Yeah, 100%. But it's like, what was the point in the big day if tomorrow you're gonna have an extra small day? That's basically just the same 2 days as normal.

And you wouldn't run a marathon and then have a sit, sit down all day the next day. Like, it'd be so bad for you.

Yeah, but I just think, like, I think some of it might come from the fact that maybe some people's— I don't know, I don't know if you work out or have any hobbies that are physically—

No, I used to. I'm not very good anymore.

No, that's fine. Well, I, I think a lot of time, like, when people say, for example, first start working out, they're like, wow, that was fucking— that was a workout. But then when you work out for like a year or 2 years, you start to realize actually you were just not used to it. You, you, you were comparing it to doing nothing all the So for you, that's crazy. Like, when people hear I walk my dogs 4 hours a day, sounds nuts, but really what I'm doing is 4 hours of enrichment. So like, if I was going out for a couple hours a day, I'd still do like an hour or two enrichment at home. Um, like, you have to think you've got 24 hours in a day. Your dog needs to fulfill their life doing stuff. Your dog's never gonna fulfill their life within an hour.

Yeah, yeah.

Or like even 2 hours. It's like, what, you've got now 22 hours of just letting the dog rest. Yeah, for like— your dog's gonna have to be mental in that 2 hours for them to rest for 22. Yeah, so it's like, it's, it's, uh, that's why I always try and help people. Like, at this weekend, one of my friends was like, what do you think is the best type? This is where I got the question from. What do you think the best breed for me to get? Because she lives in London. I was like, don't. I was like, you're not a dog. You're so busy, like, it's unreal. Even if you got the best breed, maybe it was like a little you know, Cavalier King Charles.

Yeah, even they can be wild.

Oh yeah, no, I mean, any dog could be wild. Look at Purdy, for your sake. Um, but I always say, I'm like, time is like the most valuable thing, and consistently as well. Like, are you going to be able to put the time in every day for 12 years?

Yeah, because it's a long time. I don't think people actually see that perspective. It's a really long—

and you've got a terrier. I mean, that's probably halfway.

I know, she's— well, that's what, why I like— why I bought her. Yeah, well, she won't die.

Yeah, honestly, I— today, oh my God, today I saw a Westie that's 17.

That's pretty good for a Westie as well, dude.

And I'm like, he had a bit of a limp and he, he was blind in one eye.

Oh, but he's 17.

17. And he's out all the time. I still see him out all the time.

She just—

she just walks really slow and just lets him mooch around and sniff. And I'm like, this whole time this dog's been 17?

I had, um, and I know it's more common for the breed, but I was— I grew up with the Jack Russell and he lived till he was 18.

Wow.

And he was in the village that I grew up.

He—

it was like the olden times where he didn't— he wasn't kept in. Like, he would just leave and walk around the village all day. And like, you didn't know where he was, but you know he'd come home for dinner.

Yeah.

Like, never got walked. He'd just do what he liked. But he lived away too.

What a world.

Oh, and that was like the old— like, he proper lived in like how dogs used to live.

Yeah.

Whereas now they're all shut in and gated.

Yeah, they're all pets.

Oh, they get run over if they go across the road. Yeah.

They're all crazy.

Just so chill.

I always talk about that when people ask me, like, why are the, the street dogs in other countries not all crazy with behavioral issues? I'm like, because they have very fulfilling lives. Yeah, like, they are constantly scavenging, moving, seeing things. Whereas dogs are just pets. Like, you, you make any animal a pet and rip your face off.

Like, they're just so— look at apes, aren't they?

Was it like— didn't Michael Jackson have an ape or something?

Or Well, yeah, I think loads of people have and they all just go crazy.

Yeah, because you've got an animal with needs.

Those Americans. Yeah, there's Americans, Americans and their pets.

Anyway, we could talk forever. Um, maybe we could have another one tomorrow morning. I don't know, we'll talk about that. But we've got a lot of filming to do. So, um, I've been Max, that's been Lorna.

Well done, Joyce.

Um, and go look at her stuff. She does dog training as well, if anyone didn't realize. Anyway, goodbye.