From Consulting to Venture Capital and Early Stage Startups with Naseem Sayani — Two to Twenty Podcast

Welcome to the 2 to 20 Podcast, the podcast that empowers women how to build, fund, and scale their businesses. I'm Katie Vander Ark, and I'm Julia Belt, and today we are joined with Nassim. Uh, she's a seasoned venture investor, angel investor. She's currently an operating advisor at How Women Invest and also supporting deal flow and investing decisions across funds around the ecosystem. Thank you for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yes.

Um, I know that we were just hanging out at New York Tech Week. I know we always have a blast when we're together. Um, and you always bring a lot of wealth of knowledge to a lot of our dinners and events that we have. So I'm super excited to have you with us today and kind of digging into a lot of that stuff. I thought maybe it would be great to start with maybe a background on yourself. How did you get into venture? What were you doing before venture? And then we'll kind of dig into— I did something fun. I crowdsourced a few questions because I've been posting online more and a lot of people were like, how do you meet, you know, early stage VCs? What are some of the questions? How can I get in front of them? So there's a lot of questions that people wanted to know. So I actually crowdsourced a few questions.

Oh, that's fun. I love that. Yes. Great. So background, should I start there?

Yeah, that'd be great.

Okay, cool. So I'll try and do the, the quickfire version. So I like to call myself a recovering consultant. I spent probably 15, 16 years in core management consulting. I've been on a lot of planes, gone to a lot of places, but all of that work was in digital strategy and innovation. And that started in 2007 when we first had iPhones in our hands. And you know, it's hard to consider what the world looked like before we had iPhones in our hands, but it certainly did exist. And all of my clients, which were all consumer companies and media companies, actually didn't even know what digital strategy meant, let alone how to run their businesses in the context of now this device that was helping us engage with brands directly. And so, we were answering questions like, "Oh, I've been doing advertising one-to-many, right? One single ad that applied to every person. And now, I'm going to do one-to-one. And data is going to go back and forth and conversations are going to go back and forth. And I'm going to talk to Katie different than I talk to Julia than I talk to Nassim. And I don't even know where to start, right?" And that's the kind of work we were doing in 2007, 2008. And it was tremendous, right? You learn so many things so quickly and things like data and AI and personalization. We were at the forefront of doing that kind of work, but in very super high-level strategy ways and writing tremendous pitch PowerPoint documents and 150 pages with huge stud factor. And we did tremendous work, but none of our clients knew how to execute any of it. And so a couple of years into that, we launched a product studio inside of the consulting firm. To help them build product and turn things on and test things out. And I was in New York initially doing the strategy work, and then we launched the product studio here in LA. And it was in the same window that I moved back to LA, and I very serendipitously ended up being the person running the product studio. So now I became this osmosis layer between the strategists and the designers, and there's like no semantics that get these people to talk to each other in a way that's productive. Productive-vega-ega. And so that I was, ran that for 3 years, was hiring UX, UI, tech, product, and learned a lot of things really, really quickly. And every single digital proposal for the firm went through my inbox globally for 3 years. And that was amazing and crazy. And I learned so much and I didn't sleep for 3 years. And then that product studio grew up to be a venture incubator. So, we went from building products that our client, our large clients were running and owning. And these products actually ultimately were different businesses. They needed different leadership, different KPIs, you know, different methods of operating. And so, we became a venture incubator and now we were building startups at scale with our clients, which is a different thing to do, right? And so, now we've accelerated, we're now in 2015, '16, '17. And now we're building startups. And so now I'm a partner in this business and I've now grown up in my consulting life as well. And we're not, there's not enough women, there's not enough diversity. It's all the problems that we kind of still have. But now you've taken consulting bro culture and you've mashed it up against venture bro culture. And so you can imagine what that felt like. And I was also the flag holder for diversity. I was making sure the women behind me got promoted. I was making sure style didn't affect their promotions. And so it was a great job, but it's, at some point these things get exhausting. And then I was now also in my extracurricular time, you know, I was working with a lot of men during the day and I was finding the women in my off hours. I was out looking for female founders and saying, you must exist, right? I'm not working with you during the day. You're not applying for the CEO jobs that I'm posting for the startups I'm building. Where are you? And I went and found them. I'm supporting them. I'm advising them. I'm writing angel checks. And that became where I wanted to spend my time. And so this moment where I needed to shift, right? My day job and my extracurricular job needed to switch places. And that was the pivot moment. I said, you know, I can write a bunch of angel checks and it's super fun, but my angel checks are not going to change the system. I needed to change the system somehow. Uh, and so fast forward, uh, and now I'm here.

What year did you leave the consulting firm, The Studio?

2019.

Okay. And, um, kind of at the beginning, what are kind of the main areas? So I know, like, did you focus on consumer, healthcare, B2B? Like, what were your main focuses? And yeah, I—

so healthcare was a pretty big focus out of the gate, uh, and it, you know, it always pairs with some kind of fertility adventure, something always happens. So that was a primary focus very early. I was also looking at consumer a little bit because there were just new products and things happening. So I have a couple of angel investments that are CPG-focused still. They're still in business, they're still growing. They're, you know, luckily pretty good investments. Uh, and then financial services was also a priority out of the gate, and more so because, you know, when I started to take control of my own finances— and not take control, I've always had control— but to really activate around found it was another one of those moments where I was like, gosh, I don't think, I don't think all women do this, right? I know my mother didn't for sure. And so it started to become a thing that me and my friends around me were doing. And so it, I wanted that to be something I could lean into. So that became a priority. Climate, of course, because we're just affected by it more than our male counterparts. So those spaces became just higher importance. For me. And so that's where I leaned in earlier on, and those have kind of stuck. So yeah, it's where I spend time.

Yeah, we, we both— Julia and I both come from those backgrounds, so we obviously agree. And, um, Julie, you should, you should tell her about your background too. I mean, super interesting going from an engineering kind of background to incorporate to, um, the mental health space.

Yeah, I think the pivot, it's so interesting. Like, you start down one path and you end up pivoting, but all of the skills that you had from this previous career actually translate. So yeah, I started— I'm a chemical engineer. I started my career in manufacturing, product development for skincare companies and had this tragedy happen in my life. I lost my brother to suicide and just started doing advocacy work on the side. Like it was a total side thing that I would do in my free time because I had this really exciting growing career. And then I realized that this was where my heart was at. This is where my passion was. And there was this huge need. And so that's when I started innovating, but I never intended on being a founder. It's so funny. Like, I feel like I fell into it, right? Like I fell into it. Um, but it's interesting how you talked about how first you were developing products and then you realized, okay, each of these products actually a different business model. And so much of what we hear today early on when you're building a business is start with the business. Validate the business before you build a product. So at what point, I just want to hear more thoughts around that. Like at what point did you guys realize, okay, we need to make this shift? Was it, was there like a conscious, okay, wait, we need to make this shift? Or was it just a natural progression of the company when you were doing that consulting work?

It was a bit of an, it was, it was a little bit of both, honestly. So there was a bit of, it might, it, a lot of it had to do with the timing of what was going on in the world in that moment. Right. And so we were building a lot of e-commerce. We were building a lot of. Like new engagement models, uh, because this was, you know, 2011, 2012. Like, we, we were not in— we were not in the world we're in today, right? And so a lot of, a lot of the cultural differences between parent company and new products were pretty different. And so you needed different leadership on an e-commerce business than you had in the parent company. And so as soon as you start to do that this new e-commerce company actually can't run with the same leadership or the same KPIs or the same goals as what parent company is doing. And so you end up having to separate the two things.

Got it.

So you inevitably end up with a separate company than what parent co is doing. And so it went a little bit backwards in some cases. And then as that started to happen, you start to see now you do have different business models, right? Now you are measuring growth and performance differently. And now as those business models became common, now you're taking things like e-commerce, and I'm simplifying, right? You're thinking like e-commerce and you're going, wait, I can do it there and I can do it there and I can do it there and I can do it there. And now digital transformation became the business model or the initiative. And now you're applying it to categories that are non-digital and you can start to take it to financial services more horizontally. You can take it to healthcare horizontally. You can take it to energy. Horizontally. And you start to take these stacks that have worked the same for decades. And you go, how much can I shift? How much paper can I take out of the system? And now you have toolkits to do it because we've seen it work in consumer. And you go, well, like, God, if I took that learning out of consumer and I put it into energy, holy smokes, right? The whole system works differently if I do that. But you had to see it work by changing a behavior in consumer. And can I change that same behavior over here?

It's brilliant, I think, uh, absolutely brilliant. And then fast forward to today, when— or even when you said like 2019, when you started doing angel investing and trying to search out for female founders. I was just having a conversation with a venture fund last week, and they're starting to have more presence in Japan, and they're having trouble finding female founders because of the culture, and just, it's a different— so What, how did you find, when you first started looking, like, how are you finding founders? Because now I feel like in the US, like, you can, you can find them, you know, like, you can find, they're everywhere, right? And I, and I said to this investor, I was like, I'm sure in Japan they're, they're there. It's just we gotta find them, right? So any, any thoughts around that?

So it's a good question. It was a combination of people. So I was attending a lot of ecosystem events because I was trying to get more embedded just in the startup life in LA in particular. So I would attend events, I would talk about what I was doing, I would, you know, I work at this incubator, I do these things. Uh, and so in some cases I would just meet them in the wild, uh, and which still happens. Katie knows this, I'm just out talking to people. And then in some cases other people would see what I was doing and then they would introduce me to them. So a good example is I'm an angel investor in a company called August, sustainable period care. And a friend of mine who was a previous client in my core consulting life reached out on LinkedIn and said, hey, I know this founder and I think you might be able to help her on X, Y, or Z. Would you like to meet her? And I was like, absolutely, I'll meet her. And what started out as a, can you help her with X, turned into a, hey, would you angel invest? Conversation. And like, I angel invested super early. Like, I've been involved with them before they were even in market. And that, and then she introduced me to a founder and then, and then you've pulled a thread and now I know a whole crew of them, but it started with one or two introductions. And that's, that's how most of it goes is that you meet one and then you meet the next, the next, the next, the next. And I would bet in Japan, it's the same thing. You've got to meet one because the founders all know each other. Yeah, they know each other. You have to meet one and you'll meet all of them.

I think we all stick together. That's sort of our thing.

You got to meet one and you'll meet everybody.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm gonna double-click on something that you said about, um, that's so interesting about you as an angel investor specifically, because you're not just writing a check. You bring so much expertise, so much advice to the table. And when we're looking for investors sometimes that's just as important as the money, right? And so when Katie and I talk about this, like, okay, we're looking at all the different angel investors or women that are interested in writing checks for— to put into their companies. And I think it's so important to also consider the skill set of the angel investor and how they can help you, because it really is more than the money. And you bring so much expertise to the table as well.

Yeah, I know. For me, it's a big deal. Like, I don't want to— in some cases, yes, I've written a check, and, and I'll offer the help and say, I'm here. You call, let me know what you need. Like Sunday at 10 PM, something's going crazy, call, it's fine. And in some cases, founders take me up on it. In some cases they don't. But I always offer it because I've done this for a long time. I've built companies, I've designed them on paper, I've stood them up, I've hired teams, I've built spreadsheets, I've done financials. Like these are, like I've done this. So if you need to run something by someone before you put it in front of your board or whatever it is, right? Like we can dry run it. And that, that's what angels are here for, right? They're the bang the table early supporters, and you should leverage the ambassadorship that angels bring to what you're doing. It's a reason we're here, right? And I tell all the founders that you need to use your angels because that's why they're angels.

Yeah. Not just deliver good news, right? Like use them when it's, when there's a situation, because these people are on your side, like they're invested in your company and they've skin in the game. They're not going to be like— they're not going to yell at you if something goes wrong, because we know that startup life, it's a roller coaster, and they could help you dig your way out of it.

Yeah, yeah, they're probably— they are the most passionate investors on your cap table, right? And most of us have done the diligence, and we are doing it because we believe in the business, but there's a good portion that are literally there for passion. Yeah, so you've got to lean in on that.

Yeah, so actually, so we had a, uh, Katie collected some questions from people wanting specifically questions for you. And Katie, I'm jumping down, but I think it's relevant to bring up here, is were there certain attributes of founders, the female founders that you've worked with, what did you like about them? Or were there certain attributes that kind of caught your eye? And then what was that diligence process like when you were going through and figuring out if you wanted to invest in them?

Yeah, it's a good question. So there's a couple of things for me that are really important. One of them is vision. I really, when I hear a founder talk about what the world looks like when she wins, when her product succeeds, when the things that she believes is true about a trend or a change really happens, that's when I get really excited because that, I don't want you to just be talking about what happens right now. I want you to know what the world looks like when you get there. And everyone that I've written a check to has been able to say that and communicate that and do that really quickly right up front and clearly, right? And so that for me is really important. And then they can characterize where they're starting. They know where they're headed, they know what it looks like, and they can tell me where it starts. That's really important for me. The second is a very clear understanding of the problem that they're solving. And they can characterize it. It's 2 or 3 sentences and they know what the problem is and they can point to it. And then the third is really a really good hold on the financials, even super early, right? I understand, I understand CAC, if that's relevant, customer acquisition costs. I understand that. I know what my unit economics are. I, you know, I've done some pricing testing or I haven't done pricing testing and that's something maybe I can help them with. But they, they understand the math. Uh, and in some cases, maybe founders haven't done the math or they haven't been in a financial modeling environment or something, but they can at least convey their understanding of what the financials mean in the sector that they're building in. And they know what questions to ask, right? In some cases, I've met founders who don't understand the math at all. They might have hired somebody to help them build the model, and then they bring on that person to walk it through on the call with me. And now I'm like, well, we're— I can't, right? Because if you don't understand it at seed, you're never gonna understand it at Series A. And so I, I can't take that risk. And so that's really important. And then the fourth is coachability, because what I will do when we get on a call is I'm gonna push on some of your assumptions and I'm gonna push on the thinking and I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you hard questions about the beliefs that are built into your design and your model and your vision. And not because you're wrong, but because I want to hear the response and the thinking, and I want to get into the academic debate of where you're headed. And if you're willing to do that with me, then we're going to do great, right? Because this is about building a relationship where we can, you know, whiteboard and team and go like scenario build. And if you're very comfortable doing that, this is going to be great. But if someone gets defensive or they go, oh no, no, no, it doesn't work that way. Oh no, no, no, that's not how, you know, that, no, no, no, it works this way. Then you're like, well, that's hard, right? Because I'm not a mean person. I just want to be able, I just want, I think we should be able to debate things, right?

Yeah. Can I ask you a question about that? Because I feel like so many of my male counterparts that are founders have so much confidence in their beliefs and that they're convicted in certain, and it's not because they're not coachable, but they come across as confident versus female founders sometimes, and myself included, sometimes feel like, okay, I have, I have confidence in this, but I want to remain open and I want to remain coachable. So where is that line, or is it just different depending on the situation? Do you know what I'm, do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, no, absolutely. So you can be confident and open-minded at the same time, right? And it's a matter of where your inner self is centered, right? And, and you just, it just depends on where your grounding comes from. And I think as women, we often don't allow ourselves to be grounded in some cases because we're like raised in scarcity and we're told we have to be perfect and we're not allowed to fail and all, all those things. And we kind of have to break ourselves away from that and, and remember that we're really good at stuff. And yes, we can be confident. And yes, people can ask us questions and I can answer those questions and I can answer them in full sentences and not have to do like the, you know, the little funny thing at the end that we can sometimes do where we answer with a question. Just answer the question.

I guess if you're confident, you're not as defensive too.

That's the thing, right? We don't have to get defensive when we answer questions. The opposite problem exists with our male counterparts, right? They're taught to be masculine. They're taught to lean in. They're taught to like always have this very kind of aggressive stance. And we almost haven't given them room to not do that. And I just want to, I want to reteach those behaviors because they also can be grounded and confident and not have to be aggressive all the time. And we just haven't given them room to do that.

So true.

Right. And we would end up much closer than where sometimes we are right now.

Very true.

Um, one of the other questions kind of on that point though is, um, what level of risk are you willing to tolerate for a disruptive idea? And I wonder, tied into kind of the founder, if they maybe have some of those attributes, maybe that's part of the leveling of risk. I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

Yeah, so it really depends on the opportunity, right? And so if they It— if the idea makes sense and they are after it in a strong way, they've built a strong team. This— for a lot of it comes down to superpowers. So if they understand their superpower and they know what other superpowers they need around them, and they have a plan to get those superpowers, and they, they have a vision for what they're after, I'm willing to take a little bit more risk. Right. But, and, but if they don't fully characterize the problem, they don't have a sense of their superpowers. The plan doesn't sound sound in the moment, then I can't take the risk. Right. It just, it really is a combination of the things. And then the other, the other part of it is that, you know, early, early in women's health, right. We were, there were not as many companies. Uh, there were a lot of point solutions getting made. It maybe wasn't as competitive. As it is now. Now, like, if I hear a pitch on a menopause company— I've invested in two already, I meet at least two to three a week— so if I hear a pitch on a menopause company, the differentiation has to be really, really clear because I know a bunch of them. And so if I don't understand where you sit or why you're different or why you might win some part of the category, I I can't, right? Because the space is now pretty full. And so that all of the—

you—

I've met some founders where you go, well, why is it different? And they go, well, nobody else is doing it. And you go, well, I've heard those words 10 different ways in the last 2 weeks. Like, I promise you, somebody else is doing it. And so you really have to have done— they really have to have done their homework. And if they can tell me a really great story and the differentiation is clear, then you're willing to take a little bit more risk.

Do you think risk changes? Like, so you said you invest primarily early, but I would love to hear what your definition of that is.

I do see through Series A, so I do a little bit further down as well.

Okay. And then how many pitches do you come up— like, do you see a year or even a month? Like, it's probably so many.

It's at least 8 to 10 a week.

It's a lot.

So yeah, it's a lot. It's good though. It's fun. I love it. Right. But it's at least 8% a week.

Okay. And are they mostly US-based companies or do you also invest in European companies?

Uh, it's probably 90% US-based companies. I do meet a handful that are global. Uh, and those ones are super opportunistic. Like those ones, they have found me on LinkedIn or somebody global has introduced me or I have found them on LinkedIn or something like that, but it's It's super opportunistic.

Do you care if they're serving you, the US population or audience, or no, you're fine?

Not really. Not really. If it's a great— there's one founder, she's based in London. I mean, her and I have been friends for 2 years. I haven't been able to invest yet, but she knows I want to, and at some point we'll figure it out. Um, but her, you know, like, there's a couple of people like that. Um, but her primary audience right now is Europe, uh, and she I don't know if she'll make it or has plans for the US, but I just care that what she's doing is great. And so at some point I'll get an angel check-in. So we'll see.

I love that. I love that mentality. Okay, this is a really good question from online. Someone wrote in, what's a company you invested in this year that only you believed in and no one else? And they gave an example. It took a lot of conviction.

Yeah, that's I don't have a great answer for that one, honestly, because, uh, I don't usually end up way out in left field on investments, honestly. So the companies I've invested in, there's usually at least one or two other really great people or funds that have also invested. Uh, not that it's signal for me, but inevitably I find out that somebody else I love has also invested. And so that's, that's always true. There are like the company in Europe, there are one or two companies that I just haven't been able to write a check to yet because timing has been off. But I'm deeply convicted. I'm friends with the founder. They know that I'm just itching to write a check, and we just have to find the moment. And in some cases, I have been deeply convicted, and for whatever reason, the people around me haven't been in that moment. And so it's just been a matter of circumstance. And so, but we'll figure it out at some point. I'm going to write a check. I just need to be in the right place at the right time.

Yeah. Maybe a different way to phrase that question is, were there any companies that came to you first and they didn't have the backing of any other investors and then either with you or on their own went and found other investors to fill in the round?

Yeah. So I might not name any names, but I will tell you a really interesting thing has happened in my now in women's health, I will say, is for whatever reason, I've now become a little bit of signal for what I invest in matters to other people. This is a really funny thing. So I've had a few instances where it really mattered to the founder that my name was in the press when they did their press release, which I love, right? But it's a really funny thing when that happens. And so now when I angel invest, I'm always convicted, but I make sure that I'm deeply convicted because I know they'll put my name in the press. And that will mean that other founders care, other people care. And so the most recent one, I got a bunch of text messages when that press hit. They're like, oh my God, you're in. Oh my God, you're getting— oh my God. Oh my God. And so it's a really—

I love it.

It's a really nice thing. And I also really appreciate that people care and they're watching and you don't realize people are watching. Uh, so it's kind of amazing to have that kind of moment happen where like now it's like, you know, uh, I forget the phrasing, but they'll say like, you know, avid angel investor, Naseem Sayani. And I'm like, what? I'm in the—

that's awesome.

Like, I don't understand. And then, but it matters, like shows up in the press. And I'm like, that is so interesting.

This is because you've had a high success rate, right?

Like, it's like a deeply humbling moment, right? When it shows up in the press and people react to it, you're like, oh, okay. I didn't, I didn't realize that mattered, but okay, sure.

This seems, this is making me think of dinner the other night when we found out that you're TikTok famous without even being on TikTok.

This is the other funny, I don't, you probably haven't heard this, Julia, but it was the, at New York Tech Week, I did a women's health event and there were at least maybe 4 or 5 women in the room who came up to me and they were like, oh my God, I know you from TikTok. And I was like, I'm not on TikTok.

Oh my gosh.

I don't have a handle. I'm not posting, but other people are posting me on TikTok. And these young people—

you're a celebrity, apparently.

Yeah.

And then it happened like 2 more times over the course of the week. And so now everyone's convinced I need to go like own whatever avatar is sitting out on TikTok. I need to go like be that person. I think you do.

I wanna see you on TikTok. I wanna see your daily thoughts. You're always the best on panels cuz I think you give a lot of great unfiltered, like wonderful timely advice and opinions. I don't know. I think it'd be great. I'd follow.

It was the funniest experience. It was like, okay, that's amazing.

Like you're viral without even trying.

You're doing what we're all trying to do and you're just existing.

Yeah.

We're out there posting like 3 times a day trying to get visibility and you're just, you're just there. But that's a tribute to who your career and who you are. And yeah, absolutely.

It's like another one of those deeply humbling experiences where you're like, oh my God, I'm not on TikTok. And they're like, no, no, no, I know you from TikTok. I'm like, oh, okay.

Amazing.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

So exciting.

Yeah.

The last kind of question is around market conditions. I guess this can always kind of be a question. The world is constantly changing. I think it's hard still for founders to be raising in certain areas. Some are closing really large rounds. So I don't know. I'm sure it's sort of the same thing on the venture side. A lot of firms are having a hard time closing their funds. Some are closing really large ones. So I don't know. I wonder what your two cents are on the market conditions.

Yeah, it's, it's crazy. For sure. I think on the founder and startup side, it is all about the fundamentals. That is what it is at the end of the day. And some categories, you know, tech-based solutions, B2B is the anchor. B2C platforms are hard. They're hard. And so unless you can prove really strong monetization and growth and scale, B2C is extremely hard. And so those founders are struggling. And it's, it's just how it is. And so that's, you know, and some are doing it really well for sure. Right. And, but on the vast majority are having a very hard time raising. And so they, those conversations are tough. And so I'm trying to support a few of them on how to think about the monetization, how to, if you have a strong B2C model, like showcase it, tell a story about it, make sure you can prove it. Uh, and if you don't, then, you know, let's figure that out because. It's the next 12 to 18 months are going to continue to be hard, right? And so, but strong fundamentals matter. And then also there are some founders who have done a really nice job of maintaining relationships with that next round of investors. And so if they're at a seed, they are building relationships with the Series A, they're figuring out what metrics they need to prove, they are, they're seeding the people that could lead their A, and they're doing it now. They're not waiting until they're going to start to lead the run that fundraise. They're doing it right now. And that is incredible because then you know what you need to do, right? I need to get to 1.5 in ARR. I need to have this, that, and the other. So you set some benchmarks, and that, that's helping founders also be able to get ahead of that fundraising cycle because they can lock in their lead and they've got all their other cap table people ready to get into the round once they get that lead. And so being a lot more strategic about the fundraise, I think is going to help everyone get to the cash they need when they need it. So the founders that are doing that well are doing it really, really well. And if you don't get ahead of it, that's part of the problem. The, the other thing is there's some founders are getting also very thoughtful about planning for the acquisition. So if you, you're at a point where you've been hustling like crazy, your product market fit has been hard, And you want to keep jamming. You're like, let me just get another $500K. Let me get another $750K. There's a way, there's a way, there's a way. But also just give yourself the room to think about what if there isn't? What else could I be doing? And is there an asset here that I could find a different home for? Is there a different way to scale this business? And like give yourself room to think about that. And you know, if you could plan a strategy that gave you a way to find an acquirer that could help you build it differently. There's no loss in that. It's a different strategic way to build the business.

Give yourself, right?

Give yourself room to do that, right? Like we characterize failure in these ways that we don't have to. It's not failure. It's a different path. And I really want everyone to think about that because like we, the election was crazy and we all thought, everyone thought that the IPO market was going to like kick off like crazy and money was going to have to move and liquidity was going to do crazy things. And that's not what happened. And we're in a whole different world right now. And so we can't rely on liquidity. And if you don't want to lose the baby you've built, you know, like there's different ways to find a home. And so like give yourself room to think about it.

And then what about on the, to the, to your last point around like the IPO market and like the nature of everything. Yeah. What do you see on the venture side? Are check sizes changing? Are they writing less checks? Are some funds just still actively rolling? I mean, just how is it changing from the venture side?

So, you know, some— we're likely to see some— we're going to see some funds close their raises for sure. Like there are some that have done well with bringing in the capital and we'll see some Fund 1s, Fund 2s close their raises and start to write some checks. There is dry powder out there. I know there is because I know some fund managers that are sitting on some dry powder. It certainly exists. And there is some energy in the LP base. Given the political dynamics to keep their money moving into things that they care about, right? This is, it's the same reason why, you know, money has moved into more diverse retailers because people are upset about the ones that have backed away from their policies. Like that kind of mentality sits on the venture side as well. So there is still money moving and it's just a matter of kind of knowing where that is. It hasn't stopped. Also, Hinge Health, Amada Health, like, they IPO'd and the IPOs did well, right? And they popped 25-30% higher than what they priced at, at the IPO. So those stories are out there and we're likely to see a few more that actually do well at the IPO. So we have to keep those like shining lights in mind, uh, because those could have done badly and they didn't. So let's keep an eye on all those good things because we might see 1, 2, 3 more strong IPOs happen. It's not 100 IPOs, but you know, we've got 2. Better than last year. Yeah, totally, right? Like in comparison to last year, we're still up 2. So we have to keep an eye on the good things that are still happening. And, you know, New York Tech Week was great, positive. People are in good moods. People want to keep things moving. South by Southwest, same thing. Very positive conversations. And, you know, diversity is still leading the way. So that mentality is still there. So we just have to keep pushing on it.

Yeah, those are all of our questions from the internet. So thank you for answering our lightning round. I thought they were good.

Yeah, no, they're great. Good questions.

They're all sourced via TikTok. So I'll have to report back.

Yeah, good. All right.

Yeah, we'll have to do a follow-up because this is—

Recap this on TikTok and adds it to the whatever thread of things are out there.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if you're— we're going to post this on TikTok and if you feel like the team should get on TikTok, please comment or like and drop her some love and then we'll send that to you as your proof of concept that you should be on the platform if you didn't have it already.

Yeah, I love it.

Thank you so much for your time. It was so great to hear your wisdom and just meet you and chat with you today.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Always a good time with you, team. So I can't wait to see you soon.

Absolutely. We'll do this again.

Okay, thanks.