S2EP4: That's a Check I'm Not Willing To Take with Marissa Fayer

This is The Capital Flex. I'm Naseem Sayani. This show codifies the capital playbook because no founder should have to learn the hard way. We talk about what really happens behind closed doors, the bias, the breakthroughs, and the things no one says out loud. If you've ever walked into a room and felt the system wasn't built for you, you're in the right place. Hello and welcome to The Capital Flex. My guest today is Marissa Fair. She is a 25-year medtech executive, innovator, creator, entrepreneur, investor, and philanthropist. She is the CEO of Deep Look Medical, a company transforming how radiologists and healthcare professionals visualize and interpret medical imaging with their FDA-cleared imaging software, which enables one-click segmentation and vivid tumor morphology. This is especially transformative for breast cancer diagnoses and women with dense breast tissue. She is also CEO and founder of nonprofit Her Health EQ. She also serves on the investment committee of GG Ventures and is active both with the Milken Institute's Women's Health Committee, which I'm also a part of, and the Innovation Equity Forum, which is supported by the Gates Foundation. Her mission is to move innovation and the health of women forward throughout the world, which I love. We met a few years ago via a common friend and hit it off instantly. Marissa is smart, savvy, and has many of the same reactions to the ecosystem that I have. We have shared ruckus stories about all the things that don't work and that we would change. And so I'm so excited to have you on the pod today.

Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. I would love for everyone listening for you to introduce yourself a little bit more and tell us more about Deep Look Medical. For sure.

Well, those highlights sound great, so you already did it. But listen, I'm, I'm an engineer in business and that's how I started. I spent 15 years in corporate doing new product development, mergers and acquisitions, namely for one of the largest women's health companies in the world, Hologic. Lived out of country for many years as well through some of those acquisitions. Which is where I got the great idea for Her Healthy Q, the global nonprofit. And so, but then kind of came back, burnt out before that was a thing and before that was popular, which everyone thought that I wasn't quitting. And, you know, I was actually taking my mental health, which now everyone should do. But back then, 10 years ago, that was not a thing, certainly. And then I started a consulting firm and started getting, you know, deeper into a lot of executive positions and then started investing as well, started working for some PE firms and then COVID hit, I was the first project manager on the COVID-19 task force for all the diagnostics that we have out today. You know, right before that, the founders of DeepLook Medical, um, actually found me through one of their investors. And so I was advising them for, for several years, and then about 3.5 years ago agreed to sign on as CEO. And so what we're doing is we're software technology focused on imaging and radiology and oncology, and we visualize soft tumor lesions, um, most especially in dense tissue, which obviously then affects dense breasts, long liver, thyroid. So it's, it's a software overlay. And this is just a known problem in the, in the industry. And so we're not detecting it, but we're visualizing it. So there's a lot of, you know, I actually did two of those, those acquisitions of CAD into imaging companies. And so that's an older technology, completely works. It's wonderful. But you still, like, it's great to find things, but then you need to see what is, what's in there. And in any dense tissue, again, including dense breasts, you need to see so that maybe the off chance that a woman doesn't have to come back for a test that they don't need or—

Right.

You know, or wonder— Groundbreaking. There was cancer in there or wonder if like, should I be worried about this? Or, you know, or even the doctors who are exhausted, they're saying like, actually, I feel pretty confident that there's nothing here without having to call a colleague over, without having to send for another test. And so That's the space that we play in, which is exciting.

It's great. It's great. It's fascinating. It's so useful and so innovative and could change dramatically, right? How we do so many of the things that have pretty old technology attached to them right now. And so it's, it's really fantastic. As you know, the mission of the pod, uh, is to get into the fundraising stories of all of our, all of our friends and the people we spend time with who are in this ecosystem raising capital, building businesses. And fundraising is hard for everyone. It's especially hard for the women in the ecosystem and and I hear all kinds of crazy stuff that comes my way. Uh, and, and one is to surface it, dig into it, and start to really package some of the learnings and insights so everyone after us doesn't go through it for the first time, or at least has a sense of what it can feel like and what happens. So to start off, what I ask everyone is if you had to describe your fundraising experience in 3 words, what words would you use?

Kill me now.

Yeah.

Yeah. The second you said 3 words and I was like, I know it's that one. I know it's those. It's unbearable. Really?

Tell us a little bit more. Share a little bit more about what—

about why. So I raised us a seed round and then rolled straight into a Series A strategically because A, I knew it was gonna take forever. We're also fundraising, you know, in the last 3 years, which are the worst, you know, traditionally the, the worst kind of 3 years that have been happening in capital raising and mm-hmm. In 20, 25 years. So there's that. I know as a company that specializes in women's health, that's something else that's, you know, there's not that many people are interested in it, sadly. And then there's also the fact that I'm a woman. And so there's, you know, like, you know, we have the 3 hits against us and I, I'm in the space, you know, like, like, and I hate to say like, if I can't raise it, nobody can raise. But like, it's, it's not that, it's cuz actually I hate raising money. I'm an operator, so I just like to run the companies. Sadly, as a CEO, I'm raising the money too. But it's so difficult. It's trying to convince people of why this is needed and people, you know, answering the question like, well, why haven't you raised more money? So, you know, you know, already. Well, that's not, that's not like a qual— a qualifying question. So it's exhausting. It's constant. It's, devaluing of, you know, myself personally and of our company. And it makes you question literally everything about yourself and who you are and how it should be.

Right. Well, I've heard this from so many, right? It can feel so personal because so many of the questions start to get so close to questioning whether you, the human, are any good when really we should be talking about the fundamentals of the business. And the line gets so gray in between the two. Do you remember some of the questions you got while you were fundraising or any insane questions you got while you were fundraising?

I always love this one that, what does my husband do? Oh yeah.

Well, you know, that comes up a lot and it, and men don't get asked that question at all.

Right. It doesn't, it, that's not relevant to me running the company, but thank you. The, the, the funniest one actually, I think it's, it's, it's now comical. It was not at the time, let's be very clear. I was having, I was in the middle of an investor pitch, which people had to choose to be on. And it was like a second round. And so like, you chose to be on there, a Zoom call and fine, that's great. And then I'm giving my presentation and, you know, I, I can literally do it in my sleep cuz if you've been fundraising for 3 years, you physically can do it in your sleep. And that's that, right?

Absolutely.

And you know, so I'm giving it and whatever and explaining why breast cancer's a problem and whatever. And, and I had an investor take himself off of mute and said, excuse me, excuse me, I need to stop you for a second. And I was like, this should be great. And I, and I said, mm-hmm, yes. And he said, sorry, is breast cancer like still a thing? Like there's no, like we really haven't found a cause, like a, you know, there's no cure for this, there's nothing better, but like, is this still like a thing? Like, like, yeah. And so I just, you know, of course, you know, you're kind of like, is this real? And am I being spoofed? And so, you know, thankfully I was on Zoom and, you know, I was wearing my blue light glasses, so you probably couldn't see me roll my eyes. And I looked at the camera and I said, yes. And then I kept on going and it's like, like it actually happened. And honestly, at that point, like finish the whole meeting, find, you know, good questions from other people. And at that point I emailed the group, you know, 'cause they were like, hey, some feedback. And I said, well, you know, respectfully, I'm good without your money. And at that point we were not good without money. Like we were trying to take money 'cause, you know, it was getting close to, to running out. And I just like, I was like, I can't be in a group of investors when they allowed that to happen, you know? And maybe they said something afterwards or whatever, But like the fact of the matter is that they didn't be like, mm, no, sorry, sorry for that question. And sorry for the interruption.

Well, I was going to ask, right? If anybody chimed in in the moment and tried to cut it off, or did you get an apology email later that said, we're really sorry for his behavior?

No.

Or because the whole room must have, I wanna believe, must have been stunned and been like, I can't believe he just asked that question.

Of course it's still a thing.

Yeah, I don't think that they were.

That's the problem. I don't think they were. It's wild. And so it's not like I'm asking about, like, like I'm talking about this like obscure concept that nobody in their whole world has heard about.

Well, it's good though that in the moment, there are a couple of things, right? So one, you might have been compelled to justify that yes, breast cancer is still a thing. And instead you simply said yes and kept going, which is great because in other scenarios we might be compelled to justify it and kind of backpedal and Great. Didn't do that. And then two, deciding independent of any response from them or any follow-up from them that thanks, but no thanks. I'm going to move on and I don't need this check is also quite a decision, right? Which given to your point, the scarcity or what can feel like scarcity or the need for funds, et cetera, still waiting to see what they might say could have also might have been the default plan in most cases, right?

Yeah. And listen, that's just like one of many stories. Let's be very clear. I mean, and, and. I, I don't ever wanna get into a situation where I'm arguing for money. I'm arguing to justify what we do because we're a commercial stage company with clinical adoption. Like, I don't have to justify myself to, to, to you, especially somebody who doesn't understand the industry or that is still a problem. And the fact of the matter is like, I'll let the doctors, you know, who are using our products, you know, justify it like that. More important and the fact that, you know, patients are getting value out of it, that's more justifiable for me. And I was like, I'm not going to be this angry woman.

Right, exactly right.

Leading a women's health company, having arguments, you know, on a Zoom or online or on LinkedIn. Yeah, they don't get it.

They don't get it.

And those are the people that we're never going to convince. And you know what? That's not the type of money that I'm interested in taking. And listen, again, need. Like, we had to take money where it is. And, and to be clear, I have very few women's health investors or female investors into the company, and I don't like that at all. But the fact of the matter is, like, yeah, when you're growing a company, you have to take money from where it is. I mean, obviously ethically and, and that aligns with your values, but I'm okay not taking the big strategic money. I'm okay taking the ones that are like Yeah, this is personal for me. Or I know people argue like when they start saying, well, you know, my wife, you know what, if that gets your money into our bank account to help us grow and scale, I'm okay with that.

But it's not a bad thing, right? It's a, it's fine, right? If that's what compels the check and it, it's, it's great, right?

You know, there's a lot of people that have, you know, these very, very like high, it's not ethics, high standards of like, I only want money for people that that align with this and this, and they meet this criteria. And listen, I wish that we were in a position, and that, that is a position of privilege, and I am 1000% in alignment. Like if that's what I could do, that's great. You know what? I have team members that I need to take care of that are building and growing and scaling our products. My loyalty is to them and to my shareholders and not to bankrupt the company. And I'm going to take the capital from a guy who says, oh, my wife told me like we should invest in this. You know what? Yeah. Because you know what?

She told you that we should, and you should, and you listened, and that's great. Let's go.

I love it. What? Yeah. Here's, here's a wire instruction. That's great. Go right ahead.

Yeah. What kind of investor has, beyond the, the man who has the wife who said he should do it, like what kind, what kind of fund or investor has has Deep Look resonated with it the most? Because you mentioned you don't have the women's health funds on your cap table as much, but so who has it been? How, where has the fit been better?

Med tech and health tech investors. So we have a few VCs that really like to see this space and see like this is a, in, you know, an open space. We have a lot of angel groups that have come from multiple different places. I mean, we even have funds from the state of Arizona. I mean, we relocated here and so You know, they, they, there's a great ecosystem here and that they wanna support local companies and there's only, you know, a few women's health companies and they're trying to grow that. That's exactly like, I'm happy to, to, to be part of that ecosystem. And like, I didn't follow the money here. I, we actually got our lead investors here not being in Arizona, but I made the strategic choice to move the company here in to Arizona so that we could have access to all of this to assist a system that is supportive, that under— and maybe they don't understand what we do. Maybe they just want more companies here, and there's a good amount of capital that's, you know, local. That's wonderful, and that's great. So it's a mix. There's— I would love women's health investors, you know, and we have, you know, a few, uh, you know, certainly, you know, several women investors, and, and, you know, but not specifically the women's— that many women's health funds. And, and that's simply a function— I don't think it's of us, I think it's of, there are only so many, and obviously continues to grow year over year and grows in value year over year, but there is a massive competition for women's health investors, for women's health companies. And because we're in imaging and radiology, yes, we're serving women's health. We can also play outside of that field, and I know so many other companies that cannot. And so it's, it's not that I'm being altruistic and I don't want, you know, to take up the space. But I also think there's, there's only so many companies that can be funded by those women's health funds. When you're a fund, you're, I mean, I was tied to funds, like I understand the market. You have to hit your returns and you're gonna hit your returns when you have companies with revenue that don't have long sales cycles, you know, into hospital systems that are tied to a Philips Medical or, you know, a Siemens, a big behemoth that can take 12 months. To, you know, it's a great deal, it's a great, you know, LOI, but it takes 12 months. And when you're not going, you know, a lot of these companies that are, you know, consumer-based or not necessarily known in like personally. And also there was a big push, a lot of companies, you know, we, we did, you know, we've moved from fertility to the clinic space to expansion of other different types of clinics now to menopause. You know, in those kinds, and, and a lot of the also, you know, the, the direct-to-consumers and, and things like that, all necessary, but like, they're, it's a different model.

The lens is different, right?

Right. And, and also there's not that many women's health investors and funds that are focused like in medical device, which it's healthcare, but they're still like very specifically devices and they're like, well, you're not going to have a 45x. No, no. Med device trades at a 2.5 to 3x. Like, I'm not, I will going to be higher than that, but like, I'm not trying to like. Like, I'm not going to be a high-tech.

No, the parameters are different, right? Yeah.

Like, let's just be realistic. There's no unicorn coming out of here. Yeah.

Right. It's a, well, and it's, it's a mismatch, right? Between what those funds are after and what you're building. It's also, the funds are so young and looking for, and looking for hits because they have to build traction.

As they should.

And so it's just, it's as they should, 100%.

The mismatch comes where like, we know we're going to exit relatively quickly. And well, our mandate says, you know, 7 years. I'm like, that's not gonna be helpful for a women's health company, a women's health fund. So we're all gonna start rolling up sooner or later. And you know, you need to have some exits. And that's actually more of a proof point than, you know, you having your 25x.

Well, and this is, this is also a lot of what a lot of founders need to understand really well because they will— I hear so much that they have run after all of these funds or they, and they just can't get traction, can't get a meeting. It, You know, it takes forever. And they, we all just have to understand these dynamics of what the funds need to do, what they need to achieve, what the whole stack looks like so that you either spend time running after it or you just don't because it is a fundamental mismatch on where those funds are and where you are and really what the economics are going to look like. And then you don't spend time, you don't waste time trying to run after it.

Right. And I went like after I, we, I was introduced to who, now is our lead investor. I didn't know who they were. I didn't know what they were investing in. They were kind of nascent in the space. It was through, you know, a contact, you know, a man that I knew, that I, you know, knew we were raising money in the same ecosystem. He said, oh, you should talk to them. To be clear, they denied us at first, and I said, no, I don't like that answer, and I kind of fought for it. And now, like, we were their first women's health investment, and then they— and now they have 3 women's health investments because I opened them up to the space. We're like, we're getting all these women's health companies. I'm like, great, invest in them, right? Which is, which is what they should do. And like, and, and we're actively doing it and they're proud of it. And that's, that's kind of like bringing other people, regular investors and healthcare investors into the women's health space.

Well, and that's what we need to have happen, right? Is that the, the echo chamber needs to open up. We need to bring these other investors in so that we all talk about this, not just the people who already know it and and that we're working on it.

Well, that's one of the reasons why I've, I've, I've kind of pulled back on some of the speaking, and I know a lot of people that have at women's health events, because we need to speak at other events. Like, we need to speak at general healthcare events because we can talk amongst ourselves, and we all do, and, and it's important for us to get together and talk about it and to solve problems. But it's also, we have to expose it to other places, and that means different investor events, different investor groups, different geographies, you know. And, and I mean, again, I'm in Arizona. I mean, Whoever thought that this was like a hotbed of, you know, women's health companies or healthcare companies? It is. It's just very quiet.

Yeah. So as you were, as you've been navigating fundraising and on the topic of economics, how, how has it been kind of defining your valuations or size of round, or how, how has that been for you? How have you worked through that?

Yeah, I'm personally not somebody who likes to raise money for raising money's sakes and raising a ton of money just to raise money, because again, my ego is pretty be fine. I don't need external validation to be like, oh my gosh, you raised $45 million! I wouldn't even know what to do in this company with $45 million, you know? So, I mean, I'll take it.

It's good grounding. It's good grounding to not— I mean, right, big money is big money, but we don't need to have it.

It's cool, right? So, I mean, you know, I think it's— we very— knowing the environment we were in, knowing, again, you know, in this women's health imaging space, knowing I'm a woman, we obviously let our external investors, you know, lead the priced round. And so they set the valuation. They knew what our previous round cap was. We were raising notes, so they knew what that was. You know, they knew, and I was very specific, like, we're not having a down round because there was no point to have a down round because we had commercial traction, we had partners. And so they valued it and we accepted it because again, I don't need a valuation for my ego. I would rather externally have more Xs, a tie, you know, tied to it with a lower valuation than, oh, they only turned a 2X because their valuation was, you know, overvalued. So we very specifically kind of came with that mindset, like, 'cause, 'cause evaluation, it's a made-up number. It doesn't mean anything. It means nothing. It doesn't mean the value of your company. It means absolutely nothing. And so everyone likes to say like, oh my God, they're a unicorn. Well, like they can be one day and they could be bankrupt the next day. Let's just be very clear. They don't have a billion dollars in the bank. And so we very specifically kept it lower, still an up round still. And also we needed the money, so I would rather get the money in to run the company at a lower valuation. Than have a high valuation for my ego and we don't have the money and I have to shut the company down.

But you are, you're probably lower valuation than the company otherwise should be.

Correct.

Is that fair? Okay.

Yeah, correct. We are, you know, we're, we're, we're gonna close this current fundraising rounds at about an 18 post, 17, 18 post, and we should be well into the 20s. We have, you know, well into the 20s, if not a little bit higher. To be clear, we have 9 commercial partners. I mean, and some of them are big partners, like $2 billion companies, multiple, you know, even bigger names than that. We are commercializing with them. We have, you know, commercial traction. We have FDA clearance. We have literally all of these things. And if I was somebody else, I imagine our valuation would be mid-20s to even $30 million to start. And I hate to say it, I'm okay with it. Like, it doesn't, doesn't value me as a human or me as a leader. My value comes more patients using it. And when we exit, that's the value.

The X will be higher, right? It is. It's, it's nonetheless frustrating though, right? Because if you were a different person, Mark Fair— and there might be one of those in your life, so, but who knows— the valuation, okay, but valuation could be 10 to 15 million higher, uh, just by way of gender, which is unfortunate, but nonetheless, one day there will be an exit that pays off. Correct.

Yeah. And that's, that's where everyone has to, that's where you get to see it. So, you know, I know, you know, I, some people come out of banking or they come out of, you know, this world and they're influenced and they're seeing all these other ones. Who cares? Like, it's not a competition. That's the point. Like it's not a competition. Oh, you have a $12 million versus a $15 million versus a $40 million valuation. It doesn't matter. That doesn't mean anything to me. I wanted to make sure that we were able to raise the money to support the company for us to grow forward. If that is at, you know, a pre-money $12 million valuation versus a pre-money $25 million valuation, you know what, those are different investors. And we also kept the rounds relatively small because I don't wanna raise money to raise money. Like, of course, if somebody wants to give me a $5 million check right now, I mean, like, I could definitely take it and use it, but I don't, I don't have to.

Right, right. And this is also, it's, it's being really thoughtful about how much money you need and when you need it. Not worrying about the big valuation number because that's just the talking point for drinks and you know, the, the headline that everybody wants and being thoughtful about how much of the company you're selling at any given time and what the forward capitalization looks like. Because if you do raise a seed, let's say at a $25 million, what in the world does your Series A need to look like?

Right. And that's the problem. I also wanted to make sure, again, I took care of myself. I took care of our team. And if that means that we're raising at a lower valuation because I can control more of that, that's exactly what I'm going to do. And these are the people that are putting their blood, sweat, and tears into this company. And this company would not be in existence without it. And if I have the ability now to make sure that we have a good amount of, you know, of the company, and it's not about like, I don't believe in a certain ownership stake and I don't believe that, you know, like I believe in external capital because I think that's where it grows. And you can grow value for an organization. Like, you know, yes, you people should take money if that's the type of business that you're in. And, but I wanna make sure that we're not just raising capital, raise capital and diluting everything. And you know, for, for no reason.

Right, exactly. For no, exactly.

Cool reason again, besides an ego trip.

No, exactly. And now if you have 8 commercial partners and you start to commercialize and there is revenue and traction that starts to really get very tangible, you're going to have the metrics to raise a much bigger round that's fully substantiated. And now, great, give us more money because I can pour fuel on this thing so much more quickly. So it makes a lot more sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't also believe that you should just always like just raise money to raise money because I mean, if you can raise money smartly, I mean, you know, if you have revenue, take a loan, take some debt off your revenue and not have another equity event. I mean, you do what's smart for the business. And, you know, manage control of it.

So I know fundraising is one area of our lives where there's these funny dynamics. It often happens with, uh, running the business as well, right? And whether it's people we put into certain roles or it's service providers we work with, have you had weird things happen, agendered situations happen in those situations as well?

Yeah, I mean, I, I won't claim to be a tech person. I'm an engineer, but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to software. So, I mean, you know, I brought in somebody who I trusted as, as a, as, you know, as an executive position. And then they were obviously building out our infrastructure for tech and they were more or less like saying like, you need this and we need this and we need this, we need this. And like, I was intelligent enough to know like, okay, like, yeah, I think this, like, I imagine we would probably need a cloud-based solution, you know, at some point. At this point, we're still now multiple years into the business and the industry hasn't even gone cloud-based. So like, why do we personally need to build that and spend $100,000, you know, $200,000, $250,000 of money that we didn't necessarily have to spend at that time on something that we didn't need. And so because maybe this is my— and listen, it's 100% my fault. Let me be clear. Like, that's the responsibility that I take for it. But we, we, because I wasn't knowledgeable in the space because, you know, maybe it was probably a gendered thing to say, oh, okay, great. I'm gonna go to my buddies that, you know, really know how to do this. And it was way overpriced because now far more intelligent, and I have an incredible CTO who happens to be a woman and knows this industry. And she was like, nope, did not, not need to spend that money. And, you know, she, she was like, I don't— we don't ever need this. And, and also, I don't even have— like, we don't even own it. Like, we don't have the full documentation package either.

And you don't have the documentation for the thing you already paid for?

Right. And so like, or, and we have documentation for things that we are never gonna use. I'm gonna sell the company before we ever get there. And it's great that I can like hand things over, but it's not even usable because it's gonna be 2, 3, 4 years old at that point. So things have changed so dramatically. And so I, you know, I think, I think as executives and especially women in this space, listen, you have to take some leaps. I took a leap. That one didn't work. And I trusted somebody that like I thought could really help us and was great on so many things and on certain things was not. And you know, sadly I, I didn't blind trust, but I trusted. And listen, it could have been a woman who did the same thing, but it happened to be because like I just didn't happen to know that area of expertise. And it's frustrating and you, you have to take those leaps in order to grow the, you know, grow the business and scale it. But you also have to take calculated, educated leaps. And I might have also been earlier in my CEO, you know, tenure ship to not question or, you know, not bring the board in to ask, you know, I didn't maybe have the right board members at that time to ask the right questions because it was, you know, it was, it was earlier. It was when we were raising our seed round as well. And so like, I didn't have some of the seasoned board members and observers that I have now. And so I wasn't able to probably ask those correct questions. I also don't think, like, I know a lot of people put a lot of value in, in their team, which they should, but, but to say, oh, well they have, you know, this pedigree and this pedigree and this pedigree. Listen, great pedigree might not be in alignment with the company and what we need at the time. And I kind of like, yeah, oh my God, great. Like, yes. Like awesome pedigree, but not for us as a startup.

Not what you needed in that moment.

No. Yeah. It was not what we needed in that moment and it was not in alignment for for the timing and what we needed. You know, I, I think it was a little bit of taking advantage of and just also some of the, the areas that I didn't know best and not having the infrastructure around to be able to ask those questions, which now we have.

Right, now you have. And so in that moment, it would have been finding a way to have that infrastructure would have been the call, right? Like, who else do I need to ask to vet it one step further? And, and a lot of, a lot of us, a lot of founders don't often have those resources or know who to find, but seeking it out or saying, hey, this might be a little bit further than where I have the right toolkit to make a decision and being okay looking for it, right? And seeking it out.

Yeah, I agree. And we have to ask the questions and we have to put that structure around us as well to help because you're only, like any executive is only as good as the team around. I am never going to claim to be the head, you know, of the technical team. Like, that's just not my expertise and I don't want to be, but you have to put the right people around them. You know, I'm smarter because I have smart people around me. I'm not smarter because I know everything. Definitely do not. And I don't want to, quite honestly. That's the other point. I don't want to know everything. Like, I want to know enough that what I need to know, but I don't need to know how to do the programming. It's not the best use of my brain.

What is that phrase? It's hire, hire smart people and then get out of the way, right? Because I don't need to do all the things.

Yeah, I have to, I have to, I have to set up like where we're going, where I think that we're going, get, you know, get the feedback that we need, put the right people together and like, here's what I want. You tell me when it's gonna come back to me. That's how I operate.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's great. It makes a lot of sense. Have you seen any things in fundraising get better since you've been in the space or points of light or things that you think are improving for women in particular?

I do. I, I, and maybe if you asked me this last year, maybe not. This year I'm starting to see it. I'm also seeing, like, as we were talking about before, we— there's a lot of other generalized healthcare investors that are interested in women's health, that are interested in investing in this space, that are interested in supporting women, that are interested in this opportunity zone. I also think, you know, one of the big reports that just came out, um, you know, earlier this year, specifically around recategorization of a lot of the assets that I hope will be transformative for many of us, us included, obviously. That people are starting to say, hmm, oh wait, wait, this is, this, this is an opportunity zone. And I think like there's more reports, there's more everything, there's more news, there's more this, there's more that, that you really have to be blind to not see that this is an opportunity zone and that investing in women's health companies and healthcare companies that serve, you know, that serve women, that, you know, maybe companies that are led by women, Like they're not necessarily needing to be mandates. They're just, it's just happening. I also think there's transference of wealth that's happening in the family office space, that there is an opportunity for a lot more capital to be controlled by people who want to do the right things. And it's a slow transition. It's not like, oh, 2026, a brand new year. It's slow, but I, I think, I think it's getting better every year.

No, I agree. I think the momentum is shifting, right? And we're starting to see more attention, more curiosity, and what we are, which you alluded to as well, is having more conversations outside of the echo chamber so that we start to plant the seeds and the opportunity and the talk track in rooms that are not the rooms that we're already in. Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's funny, I sometimes still go to healthcare conferences and I talk about women's health, and people are like, I didn't know that. I'm like, what? Because once that started to happen, I was like, these are the rooms that we need to be in. And it's not to convince people, it's to start exposing them.

It's awareness.

It's awareness. It's education. Just like we were educating in women's health, just like we were educating here, just like we have to educate in every industry. You have to do it in fintech, you have to do it in edtech, you have to do it in every industry. We also have to do it here. And so getting that awareness out there for all of us to speak somewhere else, to expose other people, to create these opportunities and opportunity zones for, you know, for investment, for support, for alliance, you know, all of these things, right?

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree.

It's—

it is getting better, and I think more we keep pushing it and being really objective about what we're doing and how we're doing it, the more we can keep pushing it. And that's what we have to do.

Yeah, and it has to be grounded in science, and it has to be grounded in, you know, technology, and it has to be grounded in what the owner needs. So it could be a doctor, it could be a patient, it could be, you know, oncologist, could be radiology, it could be whoever. Like, find the actual problem that exists and solve that. I don't want your snake oil solutions. We don't need supplements, like, for every single little thing. Like, that's not what— that's, that's a portion of women's health. Let me be clear.

Yeah, but it's not all of it.

And it's not just femtech either, because I'm, you know, semi— you know, it was a great categorization of a phrase and, and we needed it, but it's so much more expansive now. So It's not just, it's not just tech, it's not just femtech, it's this, it's that, it's medical devices, it's this, it's making sure that we're innovating, you know, with women in the room and, you know, thoughtfully also, you know, for women and with the gender differences related to everything and, you know, research and design and funding and also putting a global lens on it because women's health on a global scale is different than women's health in the United States.

Oh, 100%. Yeah. It's a completely different problem to solve in different ways with different questions. Absolutely. So if you had maybe 2 or 3 big must-knows for other female founders, what do you wish you had known before you jumped in or in the space? Or what do you want them to know as they're prepping for fundraising?

I want them to know how hard it is, and that's not personal. It feels personal every day. It feels personal, but it's not personal. And also I think when you're going after and start, you know, raising capital, it's fine if you have your own personal story, but you don't, that's not a, you don't lead with that. That's part of the conversation. It's not a 20-minute dissertation on your health problems and then a 3-minute on the opportunity of the company. You have to speak to your audience. If you're speaking to women's health investors, like they probably know the problem. You can do a small education and then you can have a personal connection. If you're speaking to men who have no idea what endometriosis is, like, you don't have to say that you have endometriosis. They don't care. They don't even know what it is. And, and again, it's not personal. It's what's the problem? Here's the solution. Here's the market. Here's why this matters. Knowing that it's so hard and it's not personal, like, go, go in these rooms with your armor up. Like, Know who you are, know you have a great solution, know what you're doing, know the company. And if they're assholes, that's who they are as themselves.

Honestly, it has nothing to do with you.

Yeah, it has nothing to do with you. You're also not gonna change their mind, right?

That's the other big thing to keep remembering. You're not gonna change their mind and you don't need to. You pick up your stuff and you leave.

It's not your job. And yeah, you, there are plenty of people, even if they're not women, who wanna hear and wanna know and wanna connect. I have to tell you, most of my best connectors and most of our best champions are men. And maybe it's because I've been working in male-dominated industries, you know, for my entire career, but that's who, that's who maybe I resonate with. And it's great to have all the, the female support. And there's not a human that says to me, Well, that's not really like, that's not a problem you have to solve except that one gentleman. But I mean, it might not just be their investment thesis. And that's the other thing, go and do your homework. So that's the other like advice for raising money. Like do the homework, but also know like not all the information's out there. I had no idea the name of our lead investors, never heard of them my entire life. Never ever. Most of our investors, never ever heard of, never showed up on a list. Never still show up on a list. And you just have to, like, it's, it's through people and network and making sure that the fit is there. And not just like, like, not walking into a room raising $6 million when the company, when the fund will only deploy $50 million or more. That's not a fit. That's a waste of everyone's time.

Right. And that, that again is the understanding of the economics, the dynamics, what the funds are after. And what kind of check sizes, given the size of the fund, what kind of check sizes they write. And you, you have to do that homework. You have to understand it. So yeah, it's a lot. That's great. It's, it's fantastic advice. Yeah. Well, but the, the point on the personal story, cause I tell this to founders a lot also is you, I mean, I love a good personal story, but like, I'm not going to write you a check because you have a great personal story. I'm going to write you a check because you have a great business.

And you're gonna win.

So put the personal story in the appendix or tell it to me as part of your rationale for how you're going to win because your hustle is coming from your personal story. Put it there. Don't spend 10 minutes on it upfront because I put it in the appendix. It just doesn't matter.

And I'm very much like you, you know, like again, also an investor personally. And if I, if I have a pitch that comes to me that's like literally a 15-minute, like, here's my personal health history. I'm sorry and I empathize with you, but I'm not investing in your company because that's not going to work. Like the solution might be the best solution out there, but that's what you should have led with and then tell me your why afterwards.

Yeah, agreed. I'm with you 100%. So last question, what can everyone listening do to help you, to help Deep Look? What, what's the ask of all of us?

I want everybody to ask their when they get their breast mammography, if they're using DL Precise, they're using DeepLook, if they're using AI technologies in, you know, in their mammograms. And I want people to ask for it personally. They, you have hospital connections and, you know, radiology, you know, or any hospital connections, would love to have them. We're continuing to, you know, distribute our product and, and grow and to scale. That's, we want people to ask for solutions that are going to help improve their lives. I want, all of us to just continue to support each other and ask for all these products. I literally walk into doctors' offices with a list for whatever I'm going for. I'm like, what, have you seen this product? Have you seen this product? Have you seen this product? What about this product? What about this? Because if I'm doing it, other people should be doing it. And the more times physicians hear about it, then they're going to ask, curious, what is that? Or when the company actually shows up, oh, you know what, I had 4 come. I had 4 patients just asked me about that. Like, I'm excited to hear you. And because, you know, as companies, what we're doing is, yeah, we're like, here's our information, here's what we do, here's our things, here's our information again, and it goes on deaf ears until they start hearing it from others, right?

Well, and demand changes everything. I mean, this is what has driven the menopause market. It's been demand, it's been questions, it's been not accepting the status quo. And we need to do this with every single part of healthcare. Just ask for it and say, I want, I want, I want, I want. And that is how we're going to shift how things get done, is consumer demand will change everything.

100%. And if they're like, oh, I would love to hear about it, you know what, then text me, WhatsApp me, LinkedIn me, email me, call you and you'll call me. I mean, like, that's how this works. I do it for others, and connect the dots quickly. That's That's how we have to help ourselves and help the ecosystem grow. And, you know, I, I like when I go for cervical cancer screening, I'm asking, I'm like, what about all these ones? What about, have you tried these? Can I just do this at home? You know, all of these things, you know? And that's what we should be saying. That's what we should be asking for.

Yeah, 100%. Thank you so much, Marissa, for joining me and for being so candid and so open. And I think all the insights are tremendous, and I, I know everyone will appreciate your voice and your experience. So much. So thanks.

Thanks for having me.

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