S1EP12 - You're Building a Rocketship with Emily Maginn

This is The Capital Flex. I'm Naseem Sayani. This show codifies the capital playbook because no founder should have to learn the hard way. We talk about what really happens behind closed doors, the bias, the breakthroughs, and the things no one says out loud. If you've ever walked into a room and felt the system wasn't built for you, you're in the right place. Hello and welcome to The Capital Flex. My guest today is Emily Magin. She is the founder and CEO of Exo Technologies, the women's health lab of the future. As the founder and CEO of Exo, Emily is a visionary leader in health tech, life science, and AI. Exo's mission is driven by her passion and commitment to transform women's healthcare by addressing the core issues in women's health and rebuilding the very foundation of female-specific healthcare. Emily previously held roles at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the School of Medicine, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's Keenan-Flagler School of Business. Emily is a seasoned speaker sharing her insights on disparities in women's health and research at prestigious events, universities, and leading global media outlets. Emily's advocacy and leadership establish her as a prominent figure in the ongoing conversation about the future of women's healthcare. Emily and I met in the past year, and I was instantly intrigued by what she was building. As a strong advocate for innovation and funding focused on women's health, a lab of the future, was something I had to learn more about, which of course will make sense to everyone listening. Uh, and so naturally we became instant friends. So thank you, my dear, for being on the pod and joining me for this conversation.

Thank you so much for having me, Naseem Sayani.

So for everyone listening, tell us a little bit more about you and what you're building at Exo.

Yeah, so as you mentioned, my name is Emily and I am building the women's health lab of the future. So what I— I've always lived at this intersection of women's health and tech emerging health technologies. And when I was looking at how I wanted to impact healthcare and change the world for good, I recognized that we needed to make this fundamental system change happen in order to accomplish that. So instead of thinking about, you know, how do we build something in a small point solution type way, I recognized that at Exo, in order to really impact great change in healthcare, we needed to create an infrastructure layer that would take everything from a series of disconnected point solutions to a comprehensive solution that could truly impact great change.

I think it's fantastic. And I also think I pronounced your last name wrong. It's McGinn, right?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. That's my fault. I apologize. I wanna make that right. So as you know, with this podcast, my intent is to surface all the crazy fundraising stories and the, the, the adventures that women go through in this ecosystem when they're raising capital. And that's what a lot of the conversations have been, uh, which is tremendous because I want to put a toolkit out into the wild to help founders raise, uh, our conversations. And, and a lot of what we've talked about has actually been more centered around what you've learned as you've been fundraising and, and what you've seen as you've compared what you've seen male founders do versus what your natural instinct has been, uh, and maybe what some of the feedback has been as you've been fundraising. So I'm really interested for everyone to hear that as well. So we can start anywhere, uh, but give us, give us maybe the first couple things on your mind on what your observations have been as you've been going through your fundraising experience. With EXO?

So I think if I could sum it up into one word, it would be exceptional. I think that, you know, also before we kind of dig into it, I want to highlight that I'm like in this process and in real time reflecting on this. And so everything we share today is, you know, my lessons learned from my experience that I want to help empower and embolden other women so that they can win faster. So anything we say from any of these experiences is my reflection and how I want to show up better and different, and not like a criticism of any particular interaction or anything. So I kind of wanted to like go ahead and, and frame that because, you know, I think overarching I'd say it was an exceptional experience and we can, you know, dig into that. And then it's like, it was a whirlwind and you know, it was illuminating and it was also somewhat disheartening. And we're going to be really honest about some of those things, but I want to make sure that we have like a positive, right, framing of all of this instead of like anyone thinking that this is just like bashing or criticizing the system. Like, that's not helpful when, like, as you said when we— you introduced today's podcast, Like we're really trying to help write a playbook to help empower women to win faster in this space.

Oh yeah, no, the, it's, I don't live in, uh, victim land by any means, which, you know, right. This is, we spin positive and we stand in our confidence every day of the week. So 100%. That's the grounding.

So as we're, you know, so saying all of that, cuz I think it's just really important. I think the other thing is you know, just making sure the audience who's listening to this, we're talking about high venture fundraising, right? Specifically with healthcare and life science, which I think with that industry focus, there's also some unique challenges that you face. Putting all of that into context, I think is important when people are listening to, you know, what this fundraising experience has been like for me and the lessons learned moving forward. Right.

No, absolutely. And I've asked a lot of our other guests for 3 words on what, how they would describe their overall experience. And, and you've said it already, you've said whirlwind, illuminating, and disheartening, uh, which, which are great, are great to summarize what a fundraising experience can feel like. And, and illuminating is a great one because that is, it is the insights and the learnings and the takeaways out of. What can feel fast and a whirlwind and like a whirlwind, and then also at moments disheartening, but we come back from it with a better way to do so many different parts of what we go through. Yeah.

And I chose illuminating cuz it's like, it really was highlighting the path forward.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it wasn't necessarily like enlightening in some way cuz, but truly like I was, you know, I really put some thought into it. It was like, Part of the illumination was trusting my own intuition more, right?

Tell us more about that. Give us some examples. What does, what does that mean?

So I think, you know, going back to that overarching theme of exceptionality, do we need to, to frame what my, you know, a little background of where we came into venture a little bit? Yeah. So just so listeners know, I bootstrapped my company to an enterprise-level solution. So So when you're looking at starting out fundraising, you traditionally have, you know, you go friends and family, pre-seed, seed, you know, et cetera. And that people are in the fundraising landscape are used to you checking all of those boxes. And at each of those stages, you have traditionally various levels of product development and product market fit that line up. So where we sat when I bootstrapped my company to the enterprise level platform solution, patient app and platform that we have right now, you have more of like a Series A level product without taking any outside capital. So when assessing what our needs were, that was something that I had to take into account when considering, okay, I'm going to go out to raise venture capital. What do I need at this stage? Right? And so looking at what I felt we needed to execute on our next milestones, the fact that we're an NVIDIA startup and that, you know, we would be spending some money there. I talked to my friends over at NVIDIA about what they felt was appropriate. And then something that you and I have talked about a lot is having your vision and your fundraising match. Like there needs to be alignment there. So the number that we came up with the end of last year, cuz I also think it's context is important timeline-wise for where the market was and where the market is today. So this was fall of 2024. So last year I landed on, we're raising $15 million. That felt appropriate for me. Now that got the term of supersede.

Supersede.

I love that word.

All the new words and semantics in this space are brilliant.

Right? And then it was supersede from a first-time founder, female founder from North Carolina in women's health. Right. And building tech. And building tech, right? And wanting to do it with clinical efficacy. So it was just a really unique place to sit. That said, because I have put in the work, when I set out to raise $15 million, players that could play there came to the table, right? And so it was a unique and exceptional experience in a lot of ways. One, because, you know, As I was told repeatedly, girls from North Carolina don't raise rounds of that size. That's not a first round size for most people, right? You do the smaller round first. And the big funds, the tier 1 funds, blue chip funds, whatever you wanna call them, are not the funds that are going to not only have those conversations with you, let alone are gonna be the ones that reach out to you. Like that was, a very, it was just a very exceptional and unique experience. I also don't wanna discount, 'cause I feel like as women we don't highlight the, the work we do beforehand. I was very prepared, right? So in addition to being really intentional about the raise amount, I did what I think every founder should do, which is put together an extensive CRM of potential investors, right? And mine actually came from people I know giving me all of their immediate connections. To these funds, going through, looking at investment thesis, you know, making sure we had alignment investment thesis in regards to stage, in regards to where they were in the lifecycle of their fund, making sure even within that fund that I was identifying not only the specific teams, but the exact partner that I wanted. Because when I set out to raise money, it was $15 million. I wanted it value-add in addition to dollars. And I wanted it— the value add for each of the managing directors or partners that were coming in on the deal, you know, for each of them have a unique value add. Like I was rounding out my own basketball team. So I had like targeted and thought about this, and there are people talking about me, and I was putting myself in situations where I was interacting with these investors. But to get to this like $15 million exceptional round where I sat you know, with two main funds being the key players in, in the story for me, I think that it was unique, but we also can't discount all the work that went in beforehand.

Right. And, but in the moment, your, your recognition that it was unique wasn't there, right? When you first told me, because that's where the insight is on this, right?

I think it's, I knew it was like I didn't know it was exceptional. So let me unpack that. Did I know that it was not normal for first-time female founder from North Carolina to raise a $15 million round as their first outside round? That I like knew in my head, like intellectually I knew it, but I don't think I fully appreciated the exceptionality of being in the room and it moving forward with the players I was moving forward with. Now, part of that was because I had put in the work.

Work.

I had built the relationships. I had built fantastic products, right? Like, I had everything to stand on. I had that firm foundation. But I don't think— I think when it comes to fundraising, and I don't like that this is true, and I think we have to reframe this, I've had to reframe it for myself, is they talk about how you have to play the game. And there's always this like negative connotation to playing a game, and I am not game player at all, and I think you would agree with that. I'm like, just like authentic as fuck. Like, I'm just like not full of shit. I believe that like expectations shape our reactions and like if you and I are gonna win Naseem Sayani, then like we're just gonna be radically candid about what we both expect and where we wanna go. And then that's how we're gonna win better together, right?

Right.

And so I think that when people said you have to play the game, I was like, I don't have to play a game. Like I, I have the receipts. Like there's no point. Like that just seems negative to me. But what I realized is you have to reframe it. Like there's that negative connotation of game playing, manipulating, misrepresenting facts that you hear. And like, that's what I thought of when I was told play the game because the people who were, some of them. Not all of them, but were saying it to me, misrepresented truth in order to like get where they got, right? And I thought just, just felt disingenuous, but I had to take a step back, you know, and now I sit here and I go, okay, it's a game. Like I'm in the Olympics, right? And I'm already prepared and I've trained for it, right? But there is something to be said for strategy of whatever game you're playing. And so it's like, how do I make it a positive game? It's a game where I have good strategy, and I think it's like I didn't understand the strategy components, and because I didn't understand how much I needed to do this strategy game playing piece meant I didn't leverage the exceptionality of this and appreciate the exceptionality of the situation. Does that make sense?

Yes, because if I parrot that back, there's, when you're in moments like this, there one scenario is you, you walk through it and you assume everything is going to fall into place the way that you believe that it should. We've all been in those moments.

Yes.

The other option is you recognize the moments and you start to lay the groundwork for the outcome that you want.

Yeah.

And what you now looking back have discerned is that you should have done the second, though what you did was the first.

I would say that's accurate.

Yeah. And so what, what were the things that you should have done? Like what, when you're in that scenario again, what would you do? Because you will be in that scenario again.

We both know that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

So what, what will you do next time?

I think one is own my power and trust my intuition more. I think one that you just have to be really confident and that can be difficult for a female founder. You don't wanna come across as like aggressive or audacious or, you know, all of the things that they say of women. But I think owning my power, owning my vision, standing confidently, keeping that momentum up is, is one thing. And we can get into like the very little, quote unquote, little tactical things that I would do differently in regards to that. But I'll, you know, keep it high level for a minute. But I think one, it would be that just owning my power, knowing my worth, moving confidently in that. And then I think that inviting more people to the table to create some type of urgency and movement is important, and I did not do that, right? Like, I had my people who came to the table who are, by the way, just— and to be very clear, I very much admire them. They're very well respected. I hope to still work with them in the future. I plan to. I believe them that we will. Right. And I think part of the processing this and discerning it is so that I can successfully work with them in the future. Right. And it was like this, the purpose of this is also reflections of like, what was my part in the, into how that we could have future success. Now there's also other variables, but like really reflecting upon, upon that. So I think what I would do differently is I would, on my power, be emboldened and I would be more strategic and invite more people to the table to create some type of urgency.

Okay. Yeah. And so tactically owning your power means, means what? I know what it means for me, but what does it mean for you?

High level, it's standing confident and clear in your convictions. I think that on a day-to-day practical nitty-gritty level that also impacts momentum and urgency, it literally gets down to the little things, Naseem Sayani, where managing director would CC their executive assistant and say, Executive assistant, please schedule a meeting. And then I would ping the executive assistant and say, here's my availability. And then I wouldn't hear back immediately from them and 7 to 10 business days would go by. And then I would ping them again because I didn't want to be, you know, aggressive or an asshole or annoying. Cause I was truly grateful to have the opportunity, but let's be honest, like we all get a lot of emails and pinging people more than once is necessary and that like slow down the momentum. This is not me pinging somebody multiple times that I have never met before. This is someone I have an existing relationship with who has given me an opportunity to continue to work with them. They have delegated something. I have been given permission to do something, so I should do it. And I think that it sounds like such a little thing, but they say time kills all deals. And honestly, if you wanna get into like brass tacks, little things I would advise women on doing differently, honestly, it's follow up.

It's follow up and it's following up in 2 or 3 days, not 7 to 10 days. Yeah.

And, and it came, it came from the, the best place for me, right? Like I was just trying to be respectful. I truly appreciated everybody. I believed everything that everyone was saying. And I'm not an asshole, you know? But if you wanna stay on top, like one of the things, time kills all deals. You gotta stay in front of people. You wanna be top of mind, and that's how deals get done. And so I think that's part of owning your power is like, you've already been given permission to be here, so what are you playing meek for? Why are you being overly polite? Like, right, right. Just honor the opportunity that is before you.

Right, right. And is that, that difference also shows up in how men show up in these scenarios versus how women show up in these scenarios. Is that, have you?

Absolutely. Okay.

I was, I was thinking you, we've both observed that, right? And you both, have you, have you tested that with your male founder counterparts?

Oh, I've watched, I've seen them do it.

You've seen it, right?

Like sometimes it's like you, they email somebody on a Friday afternoon and then they ping 'em again on a Monday morning and you're like, it's not, that isn't, it hasn't even been a full business day. Right. And they're like, yeah, but I'm going to just keep it moving. I'm going to keep the momentum, you know, ask not, receive not. That's really like their mentality. And then that's how they, you know, drive things forward. Cause they're like, you're, you know, if you don't ask, you're not going to get it. And I think that there's truth to that, but yes. Oh, absolutely. They definitely email a lot faster and are shocked to hear that I waited. They're like, why are you waiting? What are you waiting for? They gave you permission. Go.

Right, right. And I like, I like to describe it as, and that women live in, we live in scarcity mindsets, right? And men live in abundance mindsets and it very directly changes how we operate and how we respond and why we wait 7 to 10 days versus Friday evening to Monday morning. What, what other, I know you've had other observations about what that mindset difference does in terms of behavior, uh, and and other ways that you might operate in abundance more often.

Is there something specific you're thinking of?

Yes, there was a story you told me about being asked if you could spend a certain amount of money.

Oh, yes.

That story I love. You did what you did, and then when you talked about it, what you heard.

Oh, yeah. So I guess jumping back to the raise and the amount and where I found myself and the players that I had the privilege of coming like sitting at the table with me, right? So I set out to raise $15 million. I had the opportunity to meet a managing director who's very interested in us from a top fund. Something that people should know is that, that the managing director of that fund, their investment thesis is to invest $30 to $50 million. So I was outside their investment thesis. So when the managing director said to me, I'm interested in investing in your company, I said, we're too early. For you. And that is a fact, right? And then they said back to me, I'm interested in investing in your company. I'm going to email my team right now. Managing director stood there, right now, was like, I'm emailing my team, they're going to meet with you tomorrow. I gotta fly out, I'll be back in 48 hours. We're having a party, I'll see you at the party, right? And real, like— and so pausing there for a second, one, I was playing the game without playing the game, right? That's reflection and insight that the, that the boys gave me. Respectfully, we'll call them the boys. But the boys are like, you are playing the game, you're playing hard to get, but you didn't realize it. I was like, well, I was, because I was stating a fact, you know, I'm raising 15, you invest in $30 to $50 million. So one, there was that aspect. I met with them. you know, even within their team, they were like, some of their team members were like, you're outside our investment thesis. You're a little early for us. We typically invest $30 to $50 million. I'm like, I know, I told the managing director, you know, the decision maker here, but here we all are. And they were like, no, we really like it. We're gonna talk about it. If they say that this deal is a deal we wanna do, then like, let's learn more about you. And we went through the whole process and they learned a lot about me, and then they picked up the phone and called another fund that I was I was preparing to talk to but had not talked to yet. So that was interesting. So they called a managing director at that fund, the specific partner that I was hoping to speak with, and then that partner called one of our advisors here at Exo, who then called me and was like, hey, this managing director at this fund would like to speak with you. Then I show up to the party and at the party they're like, yeah, we're, you know, we're all going to do this together. Right? And so then I spoke to the managing director of the other fund and everything seemed to be on track. Everybody was interested, but you know, looking at that $15 million number and then looking at, you know, where they like to invest, which is one of the funds was later, the other one can play down around 15, but if they're gonna do it together, looking at ownership of the company, how much ownership they want, 'Cause I think also the number that had been thrown out that like, I guess we can also say was like not, you know, a term sheet that was given in writing, but the number that had been given out that was being talked about openly with myself and the, the managing directors of both funds was $15 million for 15%, $100 billion valuation. Mm-hmm. So you're talking about two funds wanting 7.5% and 7.5%. Now, objectively, they're gonna want more than 7.5%. So to your point of like the numbers, from my understanding, and this is from my understanding, there were multiple meetings and managing directors of the funds talking about a counteroffer to us of like what would feel like an appropriate amount to counteroffer over more than that, because then it would put me within their investment thesis and that they would have more equity in the company. Right? But we're having to play with valuation here, and we're having to play with more money, right? And so for me, it was, okay, if it's more than $15 million, and say they're talking getting up to $50 million, which is what they traditionally do, why don't we— me and my MBA interns— sit here and run the numbers on $15, $25, and $50 million? It was also said to me that there was expectation that I would to spend this amount of money in 18 months. So you're telling me I need to spend $15 to $50 million in 18 months. So I modeled it out because, you know me, I'm gonna do my work. I'm gonna see, okay, what does it look like to spend $15— I mean, to excruciating detail of like, if we do $15, $25, or $50 million, like literally pulling in— God bless my MBA interns— pulling in the exact salary for each type of like market salary 4 different markets— New York, California— into a massive spreadsheet of every role we would hire, right? And at what time over time.

And your scale, your scale curve goes like from kind of steep to very steep, right?

Yeah, that's exactly it. So it's so much. But like, so I put a lot of thought— I'm a very intentional person— I put a lot of thought into this and I looked at, okay, here's how we would spend $15 $25 and $50 billion. And the one of the biggest expense that you're gonna have is team. And you cannot scale culture and team in 18 months with the amount of people you would hire with $50 million. Like, you just can't do that with integrity, right? Like, it's not— I don't— I didn't think it was gonna work. So I said out loud to multiple people, that I did not think I could be a good steward of more than $20 million. Like, I didn't think I could spend $50 million in 18 months. Now, what was then said to me by the boys was, you take the money, right? You don't say that. You take the money, and then practically you push back on the timeline, right? Yeah, you take the 50 And then you say, and I will be being a good steward of this, therefore spending it over 24, 36 months. And isn't that fantastic? Right? Instead of, I don't think I can be a good steward. I'm going to take less. Right?

And so I think there was, there, like, that was the story that you were thinking of where it's, yeah, it's a, like, just say yes and shift the timeline later versus a hesitation and, oh, I can't do it. It's a, we just say yes. And when you get to 18 months, I can adjust it.

Right. And I think that goes back to, okay, how do I figure out how to do this and own my power in, in the right way? So did that come across to the investors as she's not confident in her convictions of how she can build this? Right? Is she meek in some way because she's like, I don't think I can spend it? I can absolutely— no, now listen, now I'm confident I could spend it and more. Truly. But I think that comes from now being more deeply rooted in who I am and, and more emboldened in my ability to execute on those things because of those lesson learned, right? Which would include extending timeline, but then also knowing like, a significant amount of this is gonna go towards talent, right?

Yeah. No, it's, it's an incredible moment of insight, right? Because this happens quite a lot where we watch our male counterparts move through these conversations with a level of confidence that we don't give ourselves permission for. And then we, we watch it and we're like, oh, well, I could have done that, right?

Because it's not a confidence thing for me, right? Like, I am confident. In myself. You know what I'm saying? Oh, we all are.

We all are. But it's a, it's a, it's a different, it's a different response, right? To just say, to say, oh no, absolutely. I could spend that. And to not worry about the deep analysis of it, but to just feel good that yes, I can spend it and I'll figure out the details, but I don't need to over-engineer the details in this moment. But I know that I can do it. And that, that it is the over— it's the analysis of the details that we get mired in versus just saying yes. Right. And, and that is, there's another, another conversation I had where two, a male founder, female founder, were both looking to sell their companies. And one scenario, the female founder did her analysis, you know, brought in a team to help her do all that and had a number, and then ultimately Got something less than that number, was offered a number and ran with it because she needed to sell the company. Male founder had a number, threw it out, picked a number out of the sky, went and negotiated and got the number he wanted out of the sky because that's just what he decided he was going to do. But again, it was a, don't, you don't, don't overanalyze it and get stuck in the analysis. Just decide what you think is right and go do it. And it's just, it's a different stance. Right. And it is, it's, and we just, we have to get better at abundance.

I agree. You know, I, I, I was smiling because I met a founder recently, a serial entrepreneur who's brilliant, and she actually was backed by one of the managing directors that I, I have referenced when they were at a previous fund, and that person sat on the board, so she knows that person well. So it's been really interesting to get to know this person over the past few weeks, but they met me 3 weeks ago. So I'm in a different place than I am now, or than I was then, rather. They haven't seen the growth over time that you have seen. And so the interesting feedback that they've given me over the last couple of weeks that is quite funny to me, and they appreciate it as well, is they're like, you're just so bold in your big vision of how you change the world. I'm building the women's health lab of the future, period. And here is how I do it, period. And she was like, you know, just like also making sure you really convey how, like, the nitty-gritty of how you get there. And I was like, you're just meeting me at, at this like really unique time where it's like I had been there and like in the weeds of communicating, here is how you very logically and scientifically build a business. Right, and getting in the weeds of a, you know, data value chain. And, you know, Steve Costco being like, please don't walk into a meeting and tell people about my data value chain. I mean, yes, but also no, right?

10 levels deep up here.

Yeah. As, as one of the consultants at KPMG said to me, sometimes you go like 100 clicks down and you really don't need to. But I will say, you know, it is interesting for me and I kind of love it. That the past few weeks, this founder has said, oh man, like, you're so, like, you really are good at casting that big vision of how you change the world. And great. And I love it. But it also, it's like, well, I've come really far, baby.

Like, I've come really far. I've been practicing, I've been working on it. I took some real fire to get here, which is brilliant.

And I'm not going to apologize for it either.

No.

So I'm— and it was not a criticism at all. And I really appreciate her feedback and observations, especially because she knows the players involved and not only knows the players involved, but was venture-backed by them and had them as a board member. So I think another thing, you know, if it's okay to take it in this direction, as well is, so I had my really exceptional unique experience, right? Where I found myself in situations that most female founders don't find themselves. We can just all, I think, agree on that, especially, you know, first-time founder, female founder, North Carolina. Those are all individual hurdles that you have to overcome to get there.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think another thing that I have had to process and, well, live through and process. Was outside voices and, you know, how much weight do you give to other people's voices? So during the fundraise and when this exceptional whirlwind thing was happening, there were a lot of male founders who were quite outspoken about the situation that I found myself in. Yeah. Right. I'm sure. And they were giving, there she goes, the girl raising the super seed. Don't fly too high to the sun. If you can't close this in the next 30 to 60 days when you're the flavor of the month, you won't be able to raise half a million dollars. People like you don't get money from people like them. You are foolish to think this would ever go through. I mean, like things like that, that it's like, and maybe there's some truth to like, you know what, the chances that I would be sitting in the room with the managing director of that fund next to another managing director at a unicorn company, it's highly unlikely. And you know what that means? I already won. Also, you boys who are being critical, you have not sat in that room. So while you may have raised a little bit of venture capital from some, some funds, have you raised it from those funds? And have you been in that room? And so discerning, like, what are the fundamentals and the principles that they're trying to get across to you? Like, because sometimes they mean well, like if you don't close in the next 30, 60 days, you're not going to be able to close half a million dollars. They were conveying if you don't, you know, do this with urgency, then time kills all deals. And so there was something to be said for that. But the nice thing about this female founder who was backed by one of these players is that she can help me process and acknowledge that it was a very real thing. Because I think another thing that has happened is people have discounted the seat I was in. Oh, it was never real. You should have never believed it. It was never gonna happen. All of those things, even though I've continued to meet with those investors and I have my very clear, like the very clear things they would like to see from me. But I think one of the greatest things that you have to learn to discern as a female founder is how to cut through the noise, how to take what's true and like a good lesson and apply that to yourself and how to throw off the rest.

And the naysayers, right? There will always, always, always be naysayers and there will always be people who want to cut down something that looks like success that maybe they don't have. And cuz we've all, I've had to learn this in excruciating ways. And, and my stance has always been, well, you know what, I'm going to keep going. And I have things to do and work to do. And if you aren't on my island being supportive, then you're off the island. And, and that's, that's the bottom line, right? Because the islands that I stand on and the people that I stand with, I am supporting. And if that's not your mindset, then we're done here. And, and I had to make those choices very, very early and also stay true to them. Because there's always, there's always Naseem Sayani. There's also, to your point, acknowledging the moment that you're in and appreciating the spaces you get to stand in and leaning into them, right? There's been a lot of moments in my career where I don't know why I landed in that room, but I'm in that room and there is something else coming and I gotta figure out what door I'm supposed to walk into, but I'm gonna find that door and I'm gonna walk into it. Because there's a reason I'm here and I gotta figure that out. So it's up to me to figure that out. And if I don't, then that's my bad.

And it's validation that you're where you're supposed to be and you have to see it that way.

And you're pretty good at what you do and it's why you're there.

Exactly. And then also to the people who are naysayers, you have to ask respectfully. Ask yourself, maybe not directly ask them, but reflect for a moment respectfully. Have they been in that room, in that seat? Right. And if they haven't been where you're going, then maybe put it to the side. Put it to the side. And then to your point, you know, I think something that I have had to get really okay with is I'm gonna be okay either way. If you are for me, that's great. If you're not for me, that's also great. But respectfully, get the fuck outta my way. Like, that's also the other thing. That I think like we get— we— you, if you allow people to have access to you, then it can hold you back. So like, I'm okay if people are with me and wanna go, like, let's fucking go. But if you're not with me, respectfully get outta the way. And I'm really, really okay with it. Cuz I think another thing that as a female founder, I have had to really own, and that, you know, and it impacts fundraising, is I think differently. And if I think differently, then I'm not gonna be understood by a lot of people. Right. And so if you're trying to explain yourself to people and you feel like you're banging your head up against the wall, like you might be thinking differently than them and they're not your people. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yep.

And so I've been very privileged, but it took me a while to get from the ecosystem I was in to somebody who got me to somebody who got me to somebody who got me to somebody who got in the rooms where I met people who didn't make me feel crazy anymore, right? Where they're like, I'm like, oh, because I think it also starts to put limiting beliefs on you, on your vision, on what you're capable of, on the amount of capital you can raise. I think it starts impacting how you plan the trajectory of your company and things like that, right?

But I think that Another, well, in that, just for a moment, that speaks to finding the right investors, not just any investor, because as you describe what you're after, what your company does, the vision behind it, there are investors that are going to lean in and get it and have conviction. And then there's investors that won't, and, and you have to figure that out quickly and either There's, and then the ones who don't get it, some of them you can maybe convince because maybe there's an extra sentence and they'll get there. And then the ones who don't get it just don't get it.

Yeah.

And there's, don't waste time trying to convince them. Just move to the ones who do and figuring out what the cues are for you on the ones who do, like that becomes your filtering for every other person you meet.

And that will, it will work.

You will find your people and find the people you need on around that table and on that cap table, because the ones who get it will get it. Because conviction is, it's so, so important.

Yeah.

Because I have some founders in my ecosystem who have investors who had conviction when they wrote the check originally, and then times get hard or we're in bridge round season and suddenly conviction has disappeared.

Yeah.

And that, those stories drive me crazy because I'm like, you ha— What happened that you suddenly don't have conviction? That's not the right behavior because conviction doesn't change. There's, you're supposed to support the founders that you've written checks to. That, that's the agreement when you write the check. And there's, there's investors that don't abide by that, which I think is unfortunate.

It is really unfortunate. I think that's where it comes also down to like doing your homework. And when I talk about value add in addition to dollars, it's like making sure that they understand what they're getting themselves into. Not that they just even appreciate what you're trying to build. Like if an investor is like, oh my gosh, I'm so excited that you wanna change women's health and impact the greater good. That's amazing. I wanna write you a check for that. But if they don't understand what it takes to accomplish that and they have unrealistic expectations of timeline and you know, then that, that might drive me insane. Right?

Like that might, and the cash required to achieve it, right? Like the pre-seed is a thing. Seed is different than pre-seed. Series A is different than pre-seed and seed. So you can't. Expect Series A goalposts when you're only at pre-seed. These definitions are purposely different, uh, and sometimes people get hung up in the wrong place.

And then I think like when you're trying to find your people, this is a kind of an analogy that I have come up with during my fundraising process, and I don't know if it's gonna make sense to anybody else, but the CEO of LinkedIn, I think, is the one who said that when you're building a startup, it's like, jumping off a cliff and building the airplane while you're falling. And so as I have been going through especially this fundraising experience, 'cause I think fund, like the alignment of fundraising and vision are something that people really have to understand, right? But as I was going through this fundraising experience, I recognized that everybody thought I was building an airplane. They were handing me airplane parts. And as I'm getting close to crashing into the ground, it's like, no, no, I've been building a rocket ship. So you're asking the wrong people for advice. Now, part of it was like, I was just in a, in geographically in an ecosystem that didn't understand what I was doing. Additionally, it doesn't, well, I guess it's not even just geographically. I really have always been an example of right tech, wrong time, meaning too early, multiple times over. I now confidently stand in that and have a great proof point track record of that. So that makes me more confident, but it's like thinking differently. People, not everybody's gonna understand you. And including the fact that like, I was surrounded by people who were like, yeah, it's, you're building an airplane, here's some airplane parts and this is what's gonna help you take off. And I was like, I'm not building an, an airplane, I'm building a rocket ship. And those are different requirements. And it's like, but they both fly. Like, you know, like people thinking about it that way. But me recognizing like, no wonder some of the advice didn't fit me. No wonder it was taking me down and not up. right? And as I'm like falling down through the sky, as everybody does, even when you're building an airplane, it's like I'm having to shed these airplane parts that were handed to me to put my rocket ship back together. Because when I started, I was like, I want to build the Women's Health Lab of the future. I didn't call it that, but I was like, I want to build the best female-specific lab in the world to build solutions that actually fit women's bodies. I'm such a nerd, and that's what I want, right? But it's always been there, and And it's like not just anyone that you surround yourself with, but especially investors. Like, you're just like your 3 closest friends shape who you become, your 3 earliest investors shape the trajectory of a company. I say that repeatedly. So like, if they don't understand that you're building a rocket ship, even if they're a great investor and they've built things before, but if they're used to building like a commuter plane to hop over to like the Hamptons, like that's not gonna help you get to space.

I love the analogy. Like, seriously, like I'm gonna have to use that and share it with people. Like, it's It is such a smart way to think about it is I'm, if I'm getting handed airplane parts, I'm, that's not what I'm building. I'm building a rocket ship.

But that also comes down to clarity of vision and conviction.

Yeah, 100%.

No.

And that it is, it is a great way to think about it because you would filter advice differently. You filter investors differently. The relationships you build are different because if they don't understand the rocket ship, we're not headed the same direction at all.

And then I think a challenge in fundraising is, okay, you're building a rocket ship. Not everybody's building a rocket ship. A lot of people just build airplanes, right? Like, that's the analogy that's out there. Okay, that means it's gonna take a different type of investor. And a lot of generalization that I think we can all agree on is that investors are pattern recognizers. And if you're building a rocket ship and they always invest in airplanes, like, you know, Who are the investors that are gonna go for a rocket ship? Or, you know, as Jensen talks about, who are gonna go for those, you know, $0 billion markets, markets that don't exist that then become multi-trillion dollar markets?

Well, that's, that's always been my stance when we get questions like, oh, there haven't been exits, or we don't know if the value's there. And I'm like, the entire job of VC is to find new opportunities. That, that is the job. And so we should be investing in what's next, not what's now. We shouldn't always be leaning on beacons of value that have already proven out. We shouldn't always be looking for existing exits in categories that we're investing in because if there have been a lot of exits in a category, that means the category's category has been largely capitalized, which means the next exit is not going to make as much money because a lot of the money has already been made. I need to be in categories. Where I could be the first one or two exits because that's where the biggest capitalization is going to happen. And that is where the, the initial thinking was in early VC. That's why so many people made so much money on those first big exits that happened in some of those places. And it's some, in some places that thinking hasn't carried through anymore. And it's really frustrating because we, We go, well, oh, there hasn't been an exit. We don't know if there's value. And I go, there's absolutely value. There's behavior, there's market trends, there's demand. There's all of these things happening in those places. If you don't wanna make money there, that's fine, but I'm gonna go make money over there because that's what we should be after. But it's, it's really, it's interesting.

And then I think they also are looking at the wrong metrics too.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. If you're trying to disrupt an industry that needs to be disrupted, like healthcare, I think one of the greatest unique challenges that we face in disrupting healthcare and life science is that traditional VC looks at their traditional traction metrics, right? And so they want to disrupt this industry and have a big return that they haven't seen yet, but they're approaching it by having expectations that don't align with long-term success. So like there are early traction points that they're like, oh, here are my traditional early indicators leading indicators of success, right? Like, well, if that hasn't worked before, then maybe if you really wanna disrupt a whole system, you take a step back and think about how are you assessing that company when it comes to you? Because there's even the ones who are like, cool, I see you Naseem Sayani, I do wanna invest in this different stuff. They still make the mistake, I think, of not assessing companies appropriately because they're looking for the wrong traction points.

Yes. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. It's a mismatch yet again. So we have a couple minutes left. I have two more questions. One, if you could leave all of our listeners with one big must-know when they walk into fundraising, what would that be? Must-know or must-do as they prepare for fundraising.

It would come down to two things, being intentional and trusting your intuition. Now being intentional is gonna come with what I mentioned very quickly earlier, which is your homework. And I mean, I did my homework and I think as female founders we sometimes don't talk about that enough, but I have a really extensive CRM where I made sure that we identified like which funds we wanted to work with. We went through, we looked at their investment thesis, we looked at stage. We looked at who is in their portfolio. Are there competitors in the portfolio? Are there complementary companies in the portfolio that some may think are competitors but actually they're complementary in their customer? And like really framing all of that then, and even getting into, as I mentioned, like which partner is going to be the best partner for you and what that specific value add. So all of that stuff, like don't ever discount the amount of Preparation so you can identify the right people and you're going to have a higher success rate and then be intentional about your outreach to them and how you connect with them. Warm introductions, always getting that double opt-in warm introduction to the appropriate person and having it being very personalized. One of my accelerator programs, everybody said I would write love letters to people because I like knew their background so much. But I think you remember from the first time that we met.

Yeah, you had done a bunch of homework. You had done all the homework.

Yeah, all the homework. So I think that one, that can't be dismissed. Like, I don't want to— like, I cannot stress enough that you have to be there. And then that's why, you know, when I get criticized, but also they're just jealous of why I have such a high success rate, it's because I did my homework. I matched appropriately. So one, your hit— like, your hit rate's going to be better if you do that homework. So one, be incredibly intentional. About being prepared and how you approach it. And then two, I think trust your intuition, trusting your intuition and then moving on it quickly.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Yes.

And so you're just continuing to just like honor— this is what I tell myself every day— honor the opportunity that's in your hand with the strength, grace, and knowledge you have of each day. Actually, as a founder, each moment, cuz you're learn— if hopefully you're learning throughout the day. Right. But like, yep. You wanna honor that opportunity. You wanna trust your voice and you wanna do all of it with intention. And then what's for you will work out and what's not will fall to the side. And you, and that, and with that momentum and with that movement, you become bolder and more confident and it just leads to more progress and success.

Yeah, no, absolutely. The second one, trusting your gut is how I characterize it, has, has come up a few times on the pod, uh, because it's something that I think culture, society has somehow conditioned women not to do, but our guts are really powerful and they tell us a lot. And when we listen to them, mine has almost never been wrong. And when I haven't listened to it, something has gone wrong. And so now, now I listen always, cuz it's, it's always, always right. So that's, that's a big one. Last question is what can, what can everyone listening do to help you? What's your ask?

What's my ask? Oh man, look at me being a, a woman not ready for an ask question after the whole conversation. I want women to put their money where their mouth is. I do. I believe that right now more than ever, it is very clear that money is power and we need to get money in the hands of women. Not just women, but people who support women. We need to get money in the hands of women so that we can impact and create change. And I think it's going to take all of us coming together, and I think it's going to take getting, you know, doing the thing that may feel uncomfortable but is the right thing to do, which is lead with like the hard ROI of like Listen, like I think owning, for me being like, listen, I wanna do good, but what I've really learned is that in order to do good, I better do really fucking well. And I don't wanna lead with like, I can do really well and make you a lot of money and also do good. But like, in order to do good during this time, we have to do really well.

We have to do really well.

And I think that it's my big ask as a call to action for people to stop sitting on the sidelines and saying, I wanna help make good happen, whether it's me or someone else, right? Like, not just me, but like my ask is, you know, looking at female founders specifically and not just saying like, how can I help? Or I believe in you, but it's like coming together. And figuring out a way to empower them with capital, not just advice.

Mm-hmm.

Like with the capital so that they can do the good that they're setting out to do. But if we are meek about it, or we don't all come together, be stronger together, then the, then nothing's gonna change. 'Cause like, if you're not gonna put money in the hands of women, then it's not gonna change.

It's not gonna change. Yeah, no, it's powerful. It's a message that I take to every room that I'm in also, because if you consider what's going on in the world right now, that's, it's a lot of private capital that has given certain people the kind of power that they're wielding right now. And if women had troves of private capital, just consider the things that we could do. And that is what I want. Also, I want women to have troves of private capital so that we could be replacing NIH funding. We could be writing checks into female founders at large and making sure people get funded. We could be moving markets in ways that could be dramatic and powerful and funding the things that we care about with private capital and not having to rely on public capital. 'cause we've done it for decades and now, oh yeah, now we cannot take that for granted anymore. But we haven't built the troves of private capital the way we should have been. And that, that is what I want us all to do also.

But it's a responsibility at this point. It is the responsibility of the private sector.

Yes.

Including men empowering women.

100%.

Investors.

Yep.

It's your responsibility to make change happen. Like, yeah, because we have overly relied on private capital— I'm sorry, in regards to public capital instead of private capital. And because of that, I think that that is why female founders have a slower fundraise journey. They, they always have to start with publicly available capital and then they check all their little traction boxes and then eventually they get that private capital. But hey, what if instead the next time somebody comes in and says, I wanna fundamentally change healthcare at its core by rebuilding the entire foundation of women's health, and I'm gonna build this women's health lab of the future. Come be a part of this moonshot with me. Right? Like, let's go.

Troves of private capital came at you right away.

And they said, you know what? We also, write checks to women who come in and say, I want to change the world, I have a moonshot. Just like you do it for men. It is true, they do it for men. Someone comes in with a big vision, you know, here's my moonshot. They're like, I'm gonna go be a part of this moonshot. So I like really hope and believe I see the change happening, especially because we're having conversations like this. Yeah, like, let's come together and let's give these female founders who are incredibly brilliant the opportunity to execute on that moonshot. Yeah.

And change the world. I'm here for it.

Yeah.

Thank you for coming on the pod and having an incredible conversation and sharing so many thoughts and gems with our listeners. It's been tremendous and I appreciate you so much.

Yeah, likewise. I'm glad to have you on this journey with me.

You know, we're, we're gonna change the world.

That's the game.

It's the only game.

Absolutely.

Thanks for listening to The Capital Flex. If today's episode hit home, share it with the founder you love and follow me on LinkedIn for more.