100M Marketing Genius Explains How to Make People Buy Effortlessly

If you don't think of yourself as a marketer, think of yourself as marketing, actually accelerating the sales conversion process. Why is that? When a Gary Vaynerchuk or Alex Hormozi walks into an appointment, why have they already pre sold the product, the service, the opportunity? Because of all the marketing beforehand. If you just think of everything as marketing, the sale becomes so much easier.

This is the thing that changed the game for me. The best marketers are not looking for sales, they're looking for signal. All I want is a signal that you could be interested in something.

I would be underestimating the amount of money made in the millions of dollars. Straight from the podcast, straight from a YouTube show. I had a guy actually wire me money without actually even talking to me. We were going back and forth on email and he's like. And I thought he was a joke, and he's like, hey, I want to do xyz. And I said, hey, here's what it is. And he literally said, done wire.

How much would you say if you had to put a dollar on it, your email list is worth to you?

It is the most valuable asset in my business.

What is a sales email? Can we give them a tactical email that they can send to those 2,000 people to move forward?

The one email that I think every single agent should send every single week. And the idea is that when.

Marketing has changed my entire business and changed my life, honestly, when I figured out how to become a marketer, I didn't have to sell as much. And I got this crazy growth, and it caused me to go to new levels in business, have more fun with what I'm doing, then also make a lot more money, right? And I think that's what so many of you want to do. So today I brought on a very special guest who I believe is one of the best marketers, one of the most underrated marketers, I would say. And if you don't know him already, you're going to learn a lot today. But my guest today is the president of the largest publicly traded real estate brokerage in the world. He's serial entrepreneur, investment banker. He's had five exits. What do you say? Nine? Or was it five out of five.

In the last 20 years?

Yeah, five exits in the last 20 years. He's made a ton of, you know, had a ton of financial success and business success, but he just loves the game. He's. He's constantly doing new things. And so today's guest is Siobhan Shavasa. Thank you so much for Being here, here, man.

Thanks, Neil. Excited to be here, man.

Yeah, man. One of the biggest. I just told you this right before the episode. I love this, this story about, like, how you, you said, hey, man, my parents sold everything they had just to get me into this country. And so it almost puts you in like a position where you had to succeed, man.

Yeah. I think a lot of times you. Somebody needs a seat of responsibility. Right? So someone's like, hey, someone's making this big a sacrifice for you, you got to go do something good. Yeah. And it started off like that, but now I just realized that that sacrifice was a big celebration. And my parents don't want. Our parents don't want us to feel like, hey, Neil and Sharon just said, oh, I gotta have this cloud of sacrifice. But they, for them, they want it to be a celebration. They wanted to do this. You and I would do this for.

Our children for sure.

And, but, but having, having that little chip on your shoulder is a good thing, I think.

Yeah. 100%, man. So I don't know if it's just immigrants, but you know how it is. We kind of just. It's just a different hunger to succeed. And then also, I think I can just tell you love the game, like a business and entrepreneurship and marketing. And even you've even said this recently. You said, hey, man, even though I've had a ton of financial success and I've built and sold companies and done all these cool things, the current role you're in now wasn't about the money. It's about just wanting to do something cool and bring in success for everybody else.

Yeah.

And so this is really cool. Like today, what I wanted to get into is our audience running. They all want to become better marketers, they want to make more money, and they want to make a bigger impact. Right. So I think what we can really, you know, get into your genius today. I think your zone of genius is marketing. You know, like, you talk a lot about so many different things in business, but when it comes down to it, you're a really good marketer.

Yeah. Well, I think you said it when you started off it. Selling is really hard when you don't do any marketing because there's no pre frame for anything going into the process, Right?

Yes.

So why does. Why, why is that when a, A Gary Vaynerchuk or a. Or Alex Hormozi walks into an appointment, why have they already pre sold the product, the service, the opportunity? Because of all the marketing beforehand. And so if you don't think of yourself as a marketer, think of yourself as marketing, actually accelerating the sales conversion process. And so when you separate the two things, you're like, oh, marketing is just to get me an appointment and then I'm just going to sell. Well, no more. If you just think of everything as marketing, the sale becomes so much easier.

Yeah. And so real quick, before we get into marketing tactics, which we're about to do, can you just quickly define framing? Because I think a lot we talk about pre framing, framing our offers, our, our brand, all that stuff. And I don't think people understand what framing is.

Yeah, framing is the, the, the definition for framing that I use. It's a container of context. If you think about it, let's say we had you and I bought the Mona Lisa. And you and I could put the Mona Lisa on this wall, take it, duct, duct tape it to the wall, and you'd be like, hey, look at this Mona Lisa. And it would be okay, I guess. However, if you put it on a frame in the Louvre with the lights and you're actually framing the experience, you're giving it context, then it brings out the twinkle in our eyes, right. And so our job is to say, all right, I've got this Mona Lisa. How do I put the framing around it, the lighting around it, how do I put it in the Louvre? And so I always think about framing as you can't actually walk into anything without just saying, I got the Mona Lisa. You need to put it in the frame first.

Yeah. And so this is all your conversations, phone calls, everything, content, whatever.

Yeah, everything. Because the mo. The most important thing, let's, let's actually do a tactical part of framing, right? If you. And I write email a lot and if, and the easiest way to frame an email is the opening sentence, right? And I like to use this thing called a dog whistle. And if you have a dog, you know that the dog whistle is only dogs can hear a certain frequency. And instead of just starting the email by saying, hey, you should buy my stuff, you can start it with, hey, if you are a real estate agent in North America and want to grow your business, then read this email, right? All that it says is, I'm calling out to the real estate agent at that point. Now the mortgage brokers can tune out, the entrepreneurs can tune out. You're talking very specifically to the agent. And what it also gives you right after that is full permission based context of saying whatever you want. Because now you have assumed rapport, right? Because the person that is reading is actually an Agent saying, oh, my gosh, I am a real estate agent. I am in North America, and I want to grow my business. So simplest frame that you can use, agents talking to consumers can say, hey, if you're looking to buy a home in Las Vegas, then this message is for you.

Yeah. So you're setting the table for what's coming.

Exactly. Right.

And then I think people just get into the context right away without setting the table.

Right.

Which is why the message falls flat. Yeah.

And then, so the two things that most people do poorly is they have no framing and they use jargon.

Yeah.

So if you say. If a real estate agent says, hey, this home is not on the mls, no one knows what that means, because in. In our industry colloquialism, we know what the MLS is. But the average consumer, Whitney's not waking up in the morning saying, I, hey, I wish someone would send me something off the mls. Yeah, right.

But he thinks it's like Zillow or she doesn't know the difference.

But you said that. You said you said it. Right. So now you should say, not on Zillow.

Yes.

Is significantly better than not on the mls. So small things that allow you to remove jargon allow you to frame the overall context so the communication and marketing becomes significantly easier if you can remove jargon and frame correctly.

Yeah. So I noticed you do this a lot in your presentations and in your emails and all this. It's. It's easy to read, easy to understand. So can you talk about, like, did you intentionally dumb it down? And I think a lot of people think that that makes you sound dumb, but I think it's the opposite.

Yeah. Think about it. So I hired a copywriting coach early on, and he said to me, think of somebody sitting in the back of a car reading your email and assume they're drunk. That's who you should be writing to, because you want to be able to influence the subconscious. And they're only skimming. So you want your sentences to be short. You want easy punctuation. You don't want long paragraphs because you're trying to get the communication there. And as soon as someone sees an email or sees a piece of text, if it feels like it's, you know, larger paragraphs, it feels unapproachable. They're like, I'll just read this later, because they want more time to read things that are dense. But instead, if you take that same paragraph and say, woof. And that was the only word you used, then I know what's coming next. Is something interesting, something that's difficult. So I'm like, woof, I just lost, I lost $14,000. Now if you just do that, they're like, I want to read more. So the job of every sentence becomes the role to sell the next sentence as opposed to selling each paragraph. So you make it really easy readability.

I love that. So in emails, it's like we talk about different types of marketing, but we're talking about email right now. Subject line's goal is just to get them to open the email correct. The first line of the email is to get you to read the next line correct. So you're, you're just doing things one thing at a time.

Right.

And you kind of view it in content the same way. I noticed a lot of your content is cut from a talk or a presentation, but the way it's jammed together, it's the most like the beginning part, it's either done with the visual hook or what you said.

Right.

Is the purpose is to get you to continue going. So I feel like people skip that step totally.

And I think the interesting part is we have no idea what's going to work. So what my team does, they love longer form content like this so they can say, hey, let me go look at Neal and Charon talking, and maybe I can slice a couple of things to get the right hook. We had a video that my team thought would perform really well and it said the theme of the video was 80% equals 100%, which is a unique theme.

Yeah.

And it totally flopped. And so one of the deals that I have with my production team is we don't care about views, we care more about shares and saves. And so if we don't get, you know, X number of shares, they have to recut the video to get more shares. And so he was like, wait, I don't know why this didn't perform. He took the same exact video, chained the first 3 seconds, and published the same video. And it got 10x the views.

So what do you change?

The hook was instead of it being 80% equals 100%. The hook was, here's how I do four day work weeks. And the four day work week thing performed really better. You can go watch it on my, on my content right now. And the way we figured that out.

It'S easier to understand.

Exactly. Cause 80%, 100% was, was too complex. It had jargon to it. Right. And how he figured it out was right now what he started to do was take the three clips with the same clip with three different hooks. Post all three of them a few hours apart on TikTok, see which one performed the best and post that on Instagram.

Yeah.

Because TikTok is a lot more meritocracy related to the virality of that particular video. And so we don't, we use just TikTok as a training ground right now to figure out which one's performing on a perspective.

Love that. And so for a lot of the people that watch and listen to this, like we're trying to do better marketing on social, for example, or on, you know, YouTube or whatever you're doing online now, there's two types of content, I would say that people do and even myself included. There are certain types of content where I'm just teaching giving value and I feel like that helps my brand long term. And then there's other types of content where it's like more direct response. And so I think, like, there's people I talk to, Sean, that are like, man, I need to get, I need to get more sales right now. And so they start doing like long term brand content. And then they're like, it's not working right. But that takes years. Yeah. And I would still, I wouldn't shy away from doing that because that's how I built my whole brand over the last several years. And same with you. But when should you do like, what's the mixture? What's your ideal mixture? And then if you're broke, for example, should you just do direct response?

Yeah. Well, think about it this way. I like direct response embedded into everything.

Okay. And here, even in your long term brand content, everything.

So, so I'll give you an example. You do this really well. You will say, hey, I want to tell you about what consumers need to know about the mortgage environment right now. And you'll talk about the mortgage environment. And there's two ways to actually do a call to action, Right. One, you may not do a call to action at all. That may just be a brand teaching play. But in the caption you may say, hey, if you want the four ways to actually benefit from know the right mortgage products, you know, message the word mortgage below and I'll send it to you. So now you're generating the comments and then the many chat DMs and all of that associated with it without doing any call to action in the video, which I think is super powerful. But if there is a call to action in the video, you do the same exact thing. So I really like that component of it. I'll give you the best hack that I learned, I'll take it on email, but you can land and expand to the other platforms is this. I learned it from Dean Jackson. And if you don't, I don't know if you know Dean, he's the marketing Buddha, one of the smartest email marketers that I know. And Dean said to me, Sharon, your job is to write email, to only deliver your super signature. And so let me frame what a super signature is. Most of us know a signature in an email, but what Dean suggests is below the email he has a direct response signature and how he, how he writes it is. Whenever you're ready, here are four ways I can help you. Way number one, join my free Facebook group. Way number two, download this PDF. Way number three, join my course. Way number four, just reply if you want to schedule a one on one right. So that you have this, some version of that. So you have this all call to action signature that is below your signature.

Yeah, I love that. I've seen that in your email. So you give value at the bottom. You even say I have nothing to sell you.

Right.

And then you give four things. They sell them.

Yeah.

I mean it's not selling, it's just like here's some resources, you're inviting them to do something.

Right. But the best part then is your emails now become a delivery system for your super signature. Okay, that was the big switch for me. So now I don't worry about selling anything in email. I know that I can write any email on the top and if they like it or not, doesn't matter. They're still going to scroll to the bottom and I'll get something that they click on and work through in the super signature. And what Dean told me was the entire job of the email is to deliver your super signature. He goes, and the craziest thing he told me, Neil was she said, shivan, if I could, I would send three emails, three blank emails a week with just my super signature. That's when I it actually kicked it off for me. I can put anything up top. I can do a sale, I can do a teaching, I can do a gratitude post, I can do whatever. And then people will scroll down and it's always there for them to connect with. So now you have. That's when I realized the direct response play of email was to my, the entire job of my email was to deliver the super signature.

So that signature at the bottom. I'm sure you guys track the clicks and emails. Do a lot of people click on those links?

Yeah, it's the highest clicked links, period.

Wow. And it's buried at the bottom.

Yes. Just the bottom of the email and says, hey, here are four ways that I can help you. And it gives you the four ways. And that's your standard, you know, ways in which people you want that should.

Be in every single thing.

It's in every single bottom of every.

Single applied to video. Essentially that would be the call to action. Either in your caption.

Correct.

On your video. So I've been kind of leaning this way and tell me what your thoughts are. I think there should not be a piece of content that you post without some soft call to action. Yeah. Because otherwise you're literally robbing the audience of how they could continue working with you or get more info or get into your funnel.

Yeah.

So I think at a bare minimum, every single post, even if it's just a brand play in the caption, you should have some way for them to opt in 100%.

And here's the interesting part I've start. I told my team to stop thinking about it as a call to action because now we're, you know, with language you're forcing somebody to do something. Right.

I started telling it sounds salesy.

Yeah. I want to tell my team I need to incentivize them to action. So what is the incentive to action?

So I see it.

Yeah, I want to incentive them to action. And so in most of my videos my team will just say, hey, if you want to, if you want Sharon's gift on the top things that, you know, the top trainings he's done for free, just comment the word gift. So the standard response is on everything, if they don't know the caption, they'll do a little caption and they say comment the word gift. And the crazy part is we still get hundreds of people commenting the word gift, even though I thought that it's been used and reused for like over a couple years now.

Yeah. Hey, quick question for you. How much have you been loving these podcast episodes? I've been getting so much great feedback from you guys. And right here is where I would typically put in an ad read for these episodes. But you know what? I was thinking about it. The only thing I really want to promote right now, the only thing I want you to do is just hit that subscribe button. I'm trying to grow this thing out. And so many of you are watching and listening and sharing, but you're not subscribed to the channel. So whether you're watching and listening, hit the Follow button, hit subscribe. And that's going to allow me to grow this thing. Let's get back to the episode. That's crazy, man. So this is really good. I love that. And we'll get into a few more things with marketing. I think one of the big things that we need to talk about today is your value proposition. You've talked a lot about this, so we'll. We'll come back to that. But before I do that, one thing that came up on a podcast I did with Grant Cardone was he said something, and it was the most viral clip from the podcast. And I kind of sounded dumb to me in the moment, but then afterwards, I kind of understand it now, and I've. And you talked about this, too. He said basically, like, it's easier to make. I think he said, like, 100 million or. He said, it's easy to make 20 million than it is 2 million.

Yeah.

And I was like, what do you mean, bro? It's not easy. And then, you know, even when the clip went viral, all these people are like, dude, he's crazy. This is just. He just loves to hear himself say these crazy things. But there's. There's some truth to it. And I. And I saw a podcast that you did or a piece of content you did, Reese, a long time ago, actually, about how you scaled Telus. And you said that you were making a financial model or a spreadsheet, and you accidentally put an extra zero, like you fucked up on the sheet. And then all of a sudden you're like, why do the numbers look crazy? But then you stuck with it. So can you talk, like, about guess, setting, like, bigger targets? Cause I feel like so many people set their bar so low, right?

So I'll give you an interesting story. When I was in college, my college roommate, when he graduated, he said to me, he's like, sean, I want to get this job, and I want to have this great life living in Chicago. And I said, that's awesome, man. He goes, but for me to live in Chicago, live downtown Chicago in a building, drive a Honda Accord, I need to make 6, 50 to $60,000. So at that time. And lo and behold, what do you think happened? He graduated, he got a job paying like $55,000. He was able to buy his Honda Accord, he got a doorman building, and that's where he lived. And he was super happy. And that is a minimum standard. What happened was, a few months after him doing that, he was really happy. His sister got sick and she lost her job. She had to move in with him and he suddenly had to bear her expenses. And now his. Her expenses were starting to kind of ramp up. And I remember him telling me, hey man, I need to start making like 110 to $120,000 to take care of my sister. And in three months, he got a new job for $120,000. In three months.

Wow.

He just had a 65, $55,000 job.

And doubled his income.

Yeah, and a lot of that is just. He just changed his minimum standard. And when you change your minimum standard, you completely change the way you look at the world. And so if you and I were operating a business right now and we wanted to double the business, we would say, okay, what can we do to double this business? Let's tweak the sales funnel on the front end. Let's optimize the operation of the back end. Neil and Sharon are going to go on a roadshow. Hey, we got to double like we would brute force double the business that we had. Yeah, but if you and I were given the challenge that we had to 10x our business, you'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. We need to redraw what this even looks like. So what it forces us to do is it forces us to drop our baggage and saying, hey, I may have to throw away something that is not excellent to actually build a thing that is bigger. And that is a really difficult exercise to do. But once you do it, you start to realize that there's no way you're going to hit that 10x growth or no way you're going to hit 20 million versus 2. Unless you give away or break up what what you have already built. And that's why 10x is easier than 2x. Because we can brute force the 2x. We can't brute force the 10x.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Okay, so when you did this with the agents at Certal, so if you guys back, quick backstory, you'd come into the company, they had gone through a scandal and you. They weren't making netting very much money. They were at 300 million or something in, in. In top line. And not, not really that profitable. And then over, over five years, what was the result of what you did?

So we took the bill, the business from one office and roughly 30 agents doing in. In Beverly Hills and the overall gross sales was 300 million. We were not profitable. The then founder was embezzling from the business. Took the business from that one office and roughly 30 agents to 22 offices and 700 agents. We were doing roughly 5 billion ish in sales. And then we sold the business to Doug Sellerman. Wow.

Okay, so that business that was like, was that your biggest exit?

No, it was the, it was the biggest size, but not the biggest on the economics.

Got it. Okay. So that business in terms of how you grew it to that scale, in terms of how you did it. Okay. And so this, is this similar to how you view how you're going to grow real as well?

Yeah. So the way we grew that business, it was a traditional brokerage business model. And my, my approach was I didn't know any different because I was a banker at Goldman Sachs. And I realized that I was like, all right, the only way we're going to grow this is to make have really great sales professionals. So instead of saying we're going to give people more marketing, we're going to give people more resources, we're going to do all of that. My approach was can I just bolt a training arm onto our business? What if every single person in our business did two things? One, they were phenomenal at their craft, which means in every sales meeting, we didn't have Cutco knives, We didn't have, uh, you know, talk people talking about home warranty. We didn't have, you know, talking about the rule changes. We didn't have any of that. We did role play in every single sales meeting. So I would drive to one of our 22 sales meetings every single week and I would just role play. And every single person got so good at their, at their skill and you'd be shocked as to how good they are when you have to role play in public. And the second is we establish a minimum production standard. So if you're not actually, if each person didn't actually sell $10 million in production every single single year, they were automatically fired. Those two things ensured that you had high skill level and you had good production. And you didn't need 7,000 people to hit that number. You had 700 people to hit that number. And that was really cool because that was the model of how do I get to 10x without knowing only what I know? Right. That was the main part of it. Real's a little different because we were in all 50 states and in Canada, it's a national model. And my thought process around this was how do we do it better? I took the best of what worked at Tel so putting a training based on focus on the business. If we have better, more skilled agents, we will do better. That's number one. But the second is the problem most people don't realize is we need to operationalize generosity. And I'll tell you my thoughts around this. I recently wrote that a leader without a platform is like a samurai without a sword. What are you going to do? Like, you need a platform. And people say, well, you need a platform because you talk about yourself Like, Neil doesn't talk about himself. He's instantly giving value all the time. But there are people right now, leaders in our space, who are brilliant thinkers, who are kind people, who want to help others, but because they don't have a platform, they can't actually share their message. And what it's done for us is I just said, all right, I'm fortunate to have a platform that we built over the last 10 years. I get to operationalize generosity. I get to say, man, I have this idea, I have this tactic, I have this technique. How can I give it away to everybody? And that deploys a ton of goodwill in the marketplace. When you and I were with Gary, that's. That was his entire message. Deploy more goodwill in the marketplace. And so operationalizing generosity is literally the business plan for growing real. And it has been, how do I get in front of more people? How do I share the message? How do I not sell anything? And that allows them to discover what a new model could be. And if they like it, great. If they don't like it, they still got some value in the process.

Yeah. And because there's so many people top of funnel, you get these 20,000 people at the bottom of the phone, Right, Exactly. That's awesome. So, and you disseminate the information through. When you say platform, you mean email content, social, YouTube, podcast, events. I see people. Events. I see people. Talk about your podcast every day. You know, you get a dozen people or more tagging that they got value from today's podcast. So this is really cool. Like, in terms of when you think about how you could really not just grow a business, but really, like, explode the business. Right. And it would come through spreading the message.

Yeah. I actually want to ask. Yeah, I want to ask you this. I've been thinking a lot about this on the team, and this one concept that we're tracking, people are talking a lot about, how many pieces of content output do I put out? I'm making 10 pieces, 20 pieces, 30 pieces, 300 pieces of content a week, what have you. And we've changed the thinking from that to not number of pieces of content, but we call this time on brand.

Yeah.

How much Time does a person spend with you on your brand? And that's a super interesting number if you think about it. Right. So on social, it's 30 to 60 seconds with short form. On email, they're probably spending a minute reading your email. On podcasts, they're spending 20 to 30 minutes listening to your podcast. On YouTube videos, they're not only spending time listening, they're spending time watching. They're reading the captions. They're actually doing something with it. They're. It's a very focused way of seeing it. So I get more time on brand. And we've realized that over the last two years the team's been tracking it. We see engagement scores on our, on our, on our subscriber base, 37 minutes. When someone hits the 37 minute mark of the time on brand that they've spent with us, they are a whole new subscriber. Yeah. But the crazy part for 37 minutes is someone has to watch 37 of your videos or someone has to watch read 37 of your emails. But if someone listens to one 27 minute podcast, I am 80% of the way there. So I'm curious about your thoughts on what do you think about time on brand or do you think that's. That should be tweaked in some way?

Yes. I looked at 100 videos that I posted on social and these are average of like 45 second videos of those videos. The average watch time was 16 seconds. Right. So even though they're 45 seconds, not everyone's making it to the end now. Some people do, many people do, but on average 16 seconds. Well, if we need to get to, what is it, 37 minutes.

Yep.

It's a lot of 16 second views.

Right.

So I love short form because it's just a way to keep connecting with people. Just you can't miss us like, you'll see us every day.

It's cardio.

Yeah, it's a cardio. But like getting them to the long form is the goal. Right, right. So podcasts, YouTube. That's why I love YouTube in terms of like, I would much rather have 10,000 views on an hour long podcast than, you know, a million views on a 20 second video. It's just a totally different experience. So how could we get more people to the long form? And so that's been the goal. And then also get them into your ecosystem, get them off the platform because the algorithm is always changing, right?

Yes.

So I think of, like, I don't think of. And then the other part with Quality with quantity versus quality. I think the game of just posting clips for the sake of posting is dead. Right? Like, you know, people would just typically give this podcast to some guy in Philippines and be like, hey, find 20 clips, let's get them posted. Yeah, well, what if the podcast only has seven fire clips? Or what if you get 20 and then you pick the next, the best six?

Right.

I think that's the game is like better. Like you need, you need more content, but you need it to be good.

Right.

I think, you know, and I don't want to just post for the sake of posting.

I think you're, I think you're spot on. And the, the power in what you just said is the quantity versus quality thing is super important. But also the only way you get the quality is to do quantity is to do the quantity. And I'll tell you this, I never, I never believed like 10, 8, 10 years ago. I was like, what is this YouTube thing? It's fine. I'm not a YouTube kind of guy. No one's going to sit and watch long form stuff. And I've had more time on Brand on, on other people's shows like yours, like Omar's, like a lot of other people's shows. And I would be, I would be underestimating the amount of money made in the millions of dollars from direct inbound requests. Straight from the podcast, straight from a YouTube show, literally email saying, hey, Sharon, I watched this show with you and Neil. Then I listened to seven of your episodes on Business School. I am, you know, could you invest in my company? Could you mentor me? Could you do money's no object? Yeah. And that has probably happened, I don't know, dozens of times. I had a guy actually wire me money without actually even talking to me.

How to get the wire instructions.

Well, we were going back and forth on email and he's like. And I thought he was a joke and he's like, hey, I want to do X, Y, Z. And I said, hey, here's what it is. And he literally said, done Wired.

Wow.

And so it is amazing for time on brand when someone actually spends time watching your stuff, how much of an impression you can make because they're wanting their thirsting for that.

Yeah. And so this is the part where I was just focused on short form and I was still getting the effects of this is the way I've done it is by getting them in through the content, but then creating that connection and, and time on brand through Instagram stories.

Yeah.

Really showing behind the scenes of what's going on? So I view it as, you know, if you're going to get people to hit that follow button instead of just letting them wait for the next piece of content, the most engaged people who hit the fall button watch your stories. So, like, I. I try and share as much as I can, you know, even before the podcast, just quickly behind the scenes, what are we doing today? Yeah, what's going on? Oh, I just walked out of this meeting. And I love this thing of, like, you know, a lot of times we have an important meeting or podcast or a session, and you have something that's kind of just on your mind right now, right. If you can get it into this device right away, it's. It's the most, like the, the most emphasis you'll have, you know, like the most impact you'll have because it's fresh, right? So I don't like. I like to try and get the content out as quick as possible now, even if that turns into something that you're gonna produce later.

Right.

But you can get it done right now and post it in stories. So I use it as testing because you can just say it really quick and see what works, and you can see the responses from a small segment of your audience.

Right.

And you could turn that into a bigger piece of content.

So the thing that you said there, the learning that I got from that was my friend Maria went, who's an amazing content creator. She said to me, hey, I thought of myself originally as an entrepreneur, but my business completely changed when I accepted the identity of being a content creator. And I said, what does that even mean? She's like, I never go a day without thinking about the most important part of my business, which is my content. No one will interrupt my content creation time. I have to have it every single day. It's kind of like my cognitive delivery that I have to do. So she took on this identity of creating content, not a, oh, my gosh, I should really post something today. No, she was like, if I don't, this is the heartbeat of my business. And really taking into account that being the. The engine that drives your business is an insane way to look at it. Like, when we wake up, we're like, man, I. What is the difference between us saying, I need to get a workout in today or I'm an athlete. It's just an identity switch. But her saying she's a content creator completely switched her identity. And so it took away the pressure.

Of.

I, I could do this marketing thing tomorrow. I could do the sales Thing tomorrow. I could do this process thing tomorrow, but I need to spend time making the content today and whatever that may mean, I have the focus on that. And that she tripled her income by just switching the fact that she, she went from being an entrepreneur to a content creator.

Yeah. I think this is the problem that most people face is like, they need something today. You know, you need something right now. And the problem is, like, if you're always doing things that would only benefit you this week, this month, this month's numbers, it works, you'll make money. But at the end of the day, like, what's the, what's the exit? Like, what's the long term strategy?

Right.

So I always tell people in this industry like, dude, what's, what's the plan to get out of here?

Yeah.

Like, are we just going to keep selling more houses or sort of loans or insurance policies or like, what's our plan? And some of them it's like, dude, make more money, put it into these commercial real estate or put it into the market and then I'll retire. That's cool. But like, from a brand perspective, I would like to have some value to all this work I've done. And so I think of, like, like, I want to do things that would benefit Neil this month.

Right.

But then I also want to do something that would benefit the Neil 10 years from now.

Right.

And that's why we work out.

Right.

And that's the exact reason why I think I need to post something on Instagram stories today. It's not because I'm going to get a sale today. And I think people, like, they just don't get that.

Yeah.

And so that's why they won't do it, you know, And I feel like I feel bad for them.

So I will share something that you and I would talk about off camera, but never on camera. And that is most people think about marketing, lead generation, you know, social media tactics, etc. As a vehicle for creating new clients, growing your business, generating leads, getting attention. But I think the way even how you and I met and connected was I look at content and marketing as a gateway to new relationships.

Yeah.

Because if no one knew me and if I was not making any content and you, you're like, okay, who is this guy? Oh, I'll just. And you just move on. Right. And so I think the I, I see. And you see content as a opportunity to stack great relationships. At the end of the day, how do you build and grow your business? You build and grow your business and you build and grow your life by having great people around you who endorse you, who support you, who lift you up, who bring you to their worlds, who create great opportunities for you. That is way more important, way more powerful, way more profitable, way more long lasting, way more moat oriented than I found this hack using a trend to get me 17 more views.

Yeah.

And I think that that was the big shift for me is like not looking at the views by saying, all right, I'm doing this content to get to tag and collaborate with people. Then I endorse people, I support them, I share their stuff. And now they're like, wait, why did Sharon share my stuff? And that really is a gateway to new relationships. And that as soon as I learned that, so my content became in service of supporting others and fostering new relationships.

And that's what I think. Alex said this too, at the pod. What podcast we did was somebody asked him, like, what's your goal, your five year plan? And he's like, I don't know. But I just know if I keep doing and building my brand right, in five years, I'll have so many options I can't see.

Right?

And that was like, man, that, that really hit home for me because it's like, look, there's a lot of cool things that happen along the way that you don't even know are going to happen, right? There's opportunities coming your way. If you look at anybody who's made a, a ridiculous amount of money or had crazy growth, the thing that happened many times was not on the roadmap. It was something that accidentally came in through serendipity, through these relationships that you're talking about. Like, I was, I made a whole talk around like, hey, me and Sharon connected through content. And then we ran into each other at the Super Bowl.

Right?

The only reason we ran into each other at the super bowl is because I made a post at the super bowl and the first comment was, bro, I'm right behind you.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, how the fuck would that happen if I didn't hit post?

Exactly. Right.

You know, and so many people go to that game and they don't post anything. So I'm like, man, this is like, you know, so many opportunities you're leaving on the table if you just do things at least to. Discovery leads to relationships.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of the long play. Now, getting back to the short play, I think it's. It's like the answer is always both, right? So we say people are in our sphere, are Always interested, like, what's the hack, Neil? Yeah, what's the CTA that gets me the most lead? What's your lead magnet look like? What's your email follow up? Can you tell me all the tactics? And I'm like, I love that part too, because you got it, you got to, you got to get paid, you got to close deals and then this needs to happen as well. So the answer is not or always it's both. Like you said earlier, like, should I do brand or direct response? He's like, both. Yeah, mix them together.

Well, you talked about, you hit on two things there. And so let's, let's dive into two tactics that will help people. So you talked about, hey, what do I do in this funnel? What's the right email response sequence that will get me the best open rates, et cetera. So I have found this one tactic that I believe will probably 3-4x your email response rate when someone lead opt ins. And the issue is, let's say somebody opts in through a form, your email marketing system called HubSpot or Kajabi or ActiveCampaign sends a autoresponder email to it. The issue with that is every email marketing software knows that it's an autoresponder. So what I've done instead now is anybody that opts into our list up front, they don't get an autoresponder email right away. We set up a Zapier integration directly from Gmail.

Okay.

So essentially says lead comes in. Great. Don't send an autoresponder email, go to Zapier. You can, you can send a native email from Gmail. And I say, hey Neil, just got your, you know, just got your request for this PDF. Here's a link to this PDF. Can you just hit reply that you got this? And all it does is one, it's a direct Gmail email so it directly gets you deliverability in their inbox. Second, when they get that and you ask for the reply and they reply, it whitelists you.

Yes.

So no one actually is going to take your email and go and start whitelisting it. Like they're not going through the mechanical aspect of doing that. If you just did that one thing, you instantly like triple your opens and your reply rates, which, which warms up the inbox better. That's why we're starting to get 60 to 80% open rates on our on emails on an ongoing basis. Because that first email that they got was this direct email hack Gmail.

And so this is the takeaway Guys, everybody who's watching, listening to this, you're creating content or you're trying to create content. You must get these people onto an email list. If you don't have an email list, you're leaving so much money on the table. So much that's like when I talk about filling events, when I talk about how we fill our webinars, which lead to more business.

Right.

It's all through email. Like, I post on and I get some stuff from social, but it's mostly through email. I built the list is through social.

Right.

But that first email that they get. So when, when what Shiran's talking about is when somebody opts into your list, you can autorespond. Now, that email, at a bare minimum, the goal of that email needs to be to get them to respond to that.

That's it.

So I ask a question in that email.

Yeah.

Like, do me a favor, Respond to this.

Yeah.

Even when I. I don't know if you do this. Even when I do webinars, for example, once they opt into the webinar.

Yeah.

They get an email saying, hey, congrats, you're registered. Can't wait to see you. You're not done yet, right? Like, reply, I'm. You know, those who are committed, reply, I'm in. If you're going to flake, that's fine. But if you're in and you really want to grow your business this year, just do me a favor. Reply, I'm in.

Yeah.

And bro, it's like 100, 200 people of this thousand that register, Reply, I'm in. Right now. We're in communication in the inbox.

Yeah.

So that one's just a cheesy one that I've done, but many times it's like, what's something you need help with? Like, do me a favor, just reply to this email.

Right?

Whatever you can do to get them to just hit reply.

Yeah. I'll tell you, this is something you and I should do. And a lot of people will say, well, Sean and Neil, it's easy for you because you guys have large lists and you can hit one email and fill an event. One email, get people on a webinar. How do I. Actually, this just building this list idea is super daunting. How do I get a jump start in doing this? Yeah. And I'll tell you, the fastest way for you to build a list is to do something called what I call a list swap. So how this would happen is. So let's say, Neil, I know that you have a Crunchy resource on how agents and LOs can grow their business. Let's say you have that right.

Yep.

And let's say I have a tactical webinar on how you get email working better. What you would say is you would write an email to your list and say, hey, I was just chatting with my friend Sharon and he showed me his way on how he's getting 3x the open rate by with one hack from Zapier. Set it up once and you never have to touch it again. It's 100% free. He won't charge you anything for it. And as my gift, he set up a separate link so you can go get it yourself. So you send your entire list to my, to my, to my opt in. And so now I get. And then I do the same thing where I send my entire list to your opt in.

Yes.

The cool part there is those are the best subscribers because one, they actually read email. They read the email number two, it's endorsed you. Endorsed me. So they already trust you and they're on your list. You, they, you endorse me. So they automatically trust me. Third, they went to my site, they read what I was offering, they chose whether they want to actually opt in. And they opted in. So now I have three levels of intent. One, they actually read do they actually like you? So they, now they trust me. And three, they want what I'm actually giving them. So now when they opt into my list, they're the best subscriber you can get.

Yeah.

So if, if you and I did that, we actually cross pollinate our list with only the people that want to do something. And that is the fastest way to, to grow.

Yeah. And those are the most engaged people that read and respite and click on links.

So a lot of times we, you can run a Facebook ad with a, and get opt ins from Facebook, but you know, you're getting Facebook ad clickers. You don't know if you're getting email readers and clickers. And that's why doing a list swap is insanely powerful.

Yeah, that's huge. You can help each other grow. And so this is the thing of like it starts with, you know, people said, you know, there's this boulder and it's called building an email list. Well, it's much easier to get the thing going once it's going right. But the hardest part is just getting it going right. And so that is like pick a service. Convertkit, freaking mailchimp.

Yeah.

Constant contact, whatever you said. Active campaign. Pick something. Literally. What's the best one, bro. The best one is the one you can pick. Just pick one, bro. I don't care what it is. And then all of a sudden, you just. Now your goal is to do this. And so this is the thing that changed the game for me, Sean. And I know you understand this as well as I feel like the best marketers switch, you know, the best marketers are not looking for sales. They're looking for signal.

That's it.

That's it. So all I want is a signal that you could be interested in something, because I know, like, how much would you say if you had to put a dollar on it, your email list is worth to you? What would you sell it for if you could never email it again and you just had to sell it to me right now?

So I'll answer it differently. It is the most valuable asset in my business. I back up my list on autopilot daily. I. If I lost my list, that would be like losing my third child, and I have two children. Like, it is a. It is that important because if the world goes down the hand basket, I can write one email and reboot my entire life.

So it's priceless.

It's priceless, yes.

So this is what it becomes when it gets this big. And so how you would get it there is the first hundred, the first thousand, and you go from there. But you're not looking for sales in it. You're looking to just grow the thing.

Right.

So if everybody could just do this and you'll become a better marketer. Whatever you're looking for, the end result, which is a closed deal, a client or a recruit, or, you know, a payday, just back the truck up. Okay, to the middle. What's something we could do in the middle? And I call this the step in the middle. It just changed everything for me. You're here, Closed deal with the cash is here. What's one step we could put in the middle?

Right.

That's a email, that's a webinar, that's a video, that's a podcast, whatever that thing is. The whole goal of your day should be to just get people there, right? And then from there, you'll have so many people there that you can then do sales activity here.

Right.

The problem is people are just running sales activity to get them to make the whole journey on their own. And there's not that many people that are interested that can do that right now.

Yeah.

Especially in today's market.

I'll tell you this one thing from a sales perspective will Be super helpful to people. A lot of times we think about exactly like what you said here. I'm going to go run an ad to get a sale instead. Think about what's the. What is the baby step that I can get them to take my micro conversion, right? The step that is so easy. They click on something, they open something, they're delightful something, they share something. What is the easiest thing that they can do? And so a lot of times, I'll talk to real estate agents around the country and I'll say, hey, use are you. He's like, well, I'm. I. I call. I'm like, great, you're calling. I've been calling all these leads. I've been getting these inbounds. But Tron, you know, none of them want to do anything right now. Everyone is like, later. And I go, okay, give me an example. They're like, well, I talked to Neil, and Neil is if, if. If it's March right now, Neil's a November buyer. I'm like, great. Well, I talked to Whitney, and she's a October buyer. I talked to, you know, I talked to Arjun, and he's a June seller. He's like, but I need. I need money right now. And what they don't realize is that as soon as they think it's a not now thing, they instantly shut down. And they're like, this is a not now thing. This lead doesn't work, et cetera. So if anyone is in this mode, I'll give you a piece of advice. I recommend people to put a little chart on their wall. And the chart has all the months. Jan, February, March, April, May, June, all the way to December. Right? And anytime you talk to somebody and they say, I'm a June prospect. Put Arjun in June. They say, well, I'm an October thing. You put Neil in October. So you do this for three days. Suddenly you're going to look at your wall and you're going to have a pipeline that you're so insanely proud of. The issue that most people have is, oh, they think about it as now and not now business.

Yeah.

And the not now is this is this weird bucket for the future that has no sense of profit or momentum or progress or anything. And they feel like all the activity associated with creating the not now business was useless. But when you can map the not now into the different months, you're like, wait a minute. I made. For the last three weeks, I made all these calls. I only got two now buyers. But the next six months is stacked. I feel really good about it. So now you actually monetize the. Not now. Both in your head and on the board. And it dramatically reduces stress and anxiety in people because they realize that the. The day to day, the work is actually building the pipeline.

Huge, man. So let's just say somebody has built their list. It's not huge. They got a couple thousand people on there.

That's good.

Engaged. Let's use the example of buyers in real estate.

Yeah.

For mortgage and real estate. They've got people who are interested in someday buying a home. Right. I don't know if it's today. They opted in for a guide.

Right.

A lead magnet. Even though you don't like big guides, but like some sort of good lead magnet.

Yeah.

Okay, now what is a sales email? Can we give them a tactical email that they can send to those 2,000 people to get them off the fence to move forward?

Absolutely. So the one email that I think every single agent should send every single week, once a week. And I call this the deal of the week. And the idea is that when, when you write a deal of the week, it needs to have a few things. I've been talking about this for the last 10 years. And I'll actually break the whole process down. The deal the week is one email sent to your entire list. So no segmenting, nothing. Sent you into your entire list once a week. But it's all text only. And it goes like this. The subject line should say whatever city and deal of the week. So you say Las Vegas deal of the week. Henderson deal of the week, Laguna beach deal of the week. And the first sentence says, this week's deal of the week is a cottage in Laguna. And it's a couple bullet points about the house, a couple bullet points about the neighborhood, and a couple of bullet points about why you like it. So three to five bullet points total and the price in bold. Now, when someone is reading and scanning, they're like, wait, there's a Laguna deal of the week. I'm scanning it. It's 1.4 million. I'm super interested. But the most important part is the call to action, which is if you're interested, just reply and I'll get you all the details. Now here's the magic around this email. There is no address, there is no links, and there are no pictures. What this does is it forces them to hit reply because we know that all conversion happens in conversation. All I'm trying to do is every week, Sharon is sending out a deal of the week. So one deal a week is 1.3 million one day trying to get them.

To raise their hand.

Yes, one deal of the week is a condo. One deal of the week is a high end property. One deal of the week is like a short sale. But they don't know the address, they don't know any links and they don't know any pictures because as soon as they see an address, they'll Google it themselves or figure out where it is. If they see a link, they've gone down this, this chain that they're never coming back. And as you see a picture, they make a snap judgment and they don't want to respond. But instead if I only give them that info and they need more info, they can only get it from me. They hit reply and now I'm in conversation.

But this is Vague on purpose.

100%. Right. And if you do this every single week, but most agents cannot deal with the fact that they're not giving them an address or a link or a picture. And if so, all you're trying to do is you're getting them to say, hey, I want to know more about that. And if you can just do that and you do it every single week, what it does, it's actually better than a just listed or just sold because it makes the consumer feel like Neil has every deal every week and it's constant. Well, I'm thinking about selling my house. Maybe I should ask him if there are other deals. Like maybe I'm thinking about buying so I should ask him if the other dealer, maybe I'm thinking about investing. Maybe you should ask him if he has a deal for me. You become like the vendor of opportunities constantly as opposed to all the things that we sell are like only when we have a listing or when we have, when we have finished a sale, do you actually promote it. If it's an elo, if it's a mortgage loan officer, they should be saying product of the week or a client of the week. Hey, this, this, this week's, you know, product is related to xyz. It has this term, this term, this term. If you want to know more about this, just reply and I'll get you all the details.

Yeah, so we have a product of the week that helps you buy a home without selling your current home. I want to learn more about it. Reply to this email.

Exactly. And then they reply and then you get a conversation.

Yeah, right.

And so that conversation can go any. But now that person replied so they have intent and now they're actually discussing. Because the inbound inquiry Is significantly better than the outbound cold call, 100%. So if you.

And as the list gets bigger, the more inbound you can get, and then you can get out of the cold sales game, which is what everybody hates.

So I'll tell you, my friend, his name is Shane Todd. Shane Todd is in vancouver, Washington. And we shared this idea of the dealer we got with him 10 years ago. And he said something to me, like, a few years ago during COVID He goes, sean, I get it now. And I go, what? He goes, I know why I don't have a big list, Because I've been trying to cobble this list together. I said, I don't understand. He said, what I'm going to do is I'm going to assume that every single deal that I got, I had to pay a referral fee and a referral fee to myself. So he takes 25% of all this commissions, and he run on every listing, and he runs ads to it, and he calls it the thousand lead system. He wants to generate 1,000 inquiries for every single listing he brings on. So he actually tells you. He's like, hey, Neil and Whitney, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna generate 1,000 inquiries on our listing. Do you think that that would actually give us a lot of inquiries and eyeballs to do this? And you're like, wait a minute. Chain's gonna generate 1000 inquiries, but each of those 1000 inquiries become 1000 particular buyer leads on the property?

Yes.

And so he's done this. He's had, like, 25 or 26 listings in the last kind of, you know, two years. He has 26,000 leads, literally. What he told me was, he goes, I can just turn it off and just do deal of the weeks every week and never have to change anything. Never have to generate one more new lead in my career.

That's huge.

But just by the fact that he said, I'm going to generate this 1000 lead system.

That's awesome. And then it blows up his list as well.

Right.

So just the. The. The pot that he's pulling from gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

But the focus of him saying that. And that was his idea. He came up with the 1000 lead system. He runs ads directly to the property. And then now him running the ads has made it a value prop in the living room.

Yeah.

Because no one else can. Everyone else says, oh, Mr. Mr. Seller, when you list with me, I do all these things. He says, hey, Neil and Whitney, when you list with us, we generate 1,000 inquiries on your property. Because we believe that getting more inquiries gets to more showings and more showings. Get some more offers. Yeah, and you're like you're going to generate one and he can show proof because he's going to continue to run his ads until he gets 1,000 leads.

Yeah, that's huge, man. The other cool thing I noticed when you said bringing in the mortgage people or you know, for other people in other industries is like if you don't have the thing to share for your like loan products or you want to talk about this, you could just simply share the end thing which is the properties. The ELO can do frickin deal of the week on. At the end of the day that's what we're selling anyways, right? Nobody likes debt. They like the house. So you can sell the deal, the house, the property, the end result.

Well think about this. Think about a mortgage loan officer wanting to have a great business partnership with a real estate agent. They're just like, hey, when you get an equity for a buyer, flip it to me. Now you're saying, hey Neil, you have a listing. As an agent, I surround them, the loan officer. I'm like, hey, do you mind if I promote your listing? I as a mortgage loan officer to all my pre approved clients that I've done. I could do a deal of the week of your listing and when you reply, I forward it to you. So now you, the agent are like shron's insane. He's marketing for me, not just taking an order later.

Yes. And so for everybody here who's, who's watching, listening, you guys, we could do six more episodes and we wouldn't be even close to finished, you know. So if you guys want to hear more from Sharon, if you want to get more tactical information, just do me a favor, comment below this video that you want me to bring it back on. If we get enough comments, we'll do another episode. Okay, so make sure if you're watching this, leave a comment below. If you want to have Sharon back on the, on the episode or if you're listening, shoot me a message. DM me, whatever. So I want to wrap up with this today because we're almost to an hour here. This is the thing that really changed the game for me. It was obviously watching and listening and learning about this opened my mind to becoming a marketer. That's what changed everything for me. As I said in the beginning, but when I actually hired a coach, it really changed. I don't think I've ever Even said this on publicly. But I've, you know, I've been in masterminds and things like that. But one time I saw a guy who I follow, who was a great marketer on social and I followed all. And he was a good advertiser and all these things and I didn't know anything about it. And he posted one day like, hey, I'm. Look, I'm going to bring on a couple one to one clients. And I was like, okay, you know, I want to. I responded, I was like, what would it, what would it, what would that look like?

Yeah.

And he messaged me back later and he was like, all right, looked at your stuff, like, I think I could help you. It would be a hundred thousand dollars. And I was like, holy, you know that's like a condo at the time, right? Like $100,000 just for business coaching.

Yeah.

And you know, there was a, it was over a length of time and there was some deliverables and I remember just second guessing, like, should I do it? Should I not do it? And even when I said I would even just typing in the wire and then just before I could hit the enter button, being like, I don't know, man, that's a lot of money. It's so risky. But at the end, what I got around to doing was like, dude, this is a bet on me. Like, because I know I'm gonna do the thing and, and I know this person can help me get there. So I hit send. That single investment changed my entire life. Yeah, bro, I'm telling you right now, like. And you know the individual is Billy Jean.

Yeah.

He taught me everything in terms of like marketing and sales and even how to grow a team. And. And then from there I could take the ball and run with it.

Yeah.

But that first investment in coaching is just transferring transformational for me. So I know you're a big believer in coaching and I am too, still to this day. I have other business coaches and I still am in masterminds and I join communities, paid communities. Why do you still, after all this success, still have so many coaches?

Yeah, I'll tell you. So I have seven paid coaches right now.

Yeah.

And I have realized that, you know, all of us, we look at some people want to be Neil, people want to be Steve Jobs, people want to be Tiger woods, people want to be Elon Musk, people. And I'm sorry, like, you can't be Neil, you can't be Elon. They have completely different skill sets and life experiences than you. But how can I bring out the Neil Dingra in me. How can I bring out the Tony Robbins in me? How can I bring out the Elon in me? And I've realized that instead of looking and emulating Neil looking and emulating Elon, I'm trying to figure out who's their support system. Because if I can get Elon support system for me, if I can get Neil support system for me, if I can get Steve Jobs support system for me, then they can bring out the Jobs in me.

Yeah.

So from a speaking perspective, I hired Tony Robbins speaking coach, Richard Green, and I was like, tony is the. To me, Tony is the goat. And I paid $50,000 for three hours with Richard Greene, and he changed my life. I am, I would tell you from a speaking career, it was everything up until the time I met Richard Greene and everything after. In three hours, he completely changed how I think about this.

One session or one session for three hours, One.

One. Three hour session. And it was the best, it was the best investment I ever made. And so now what I do is every time I see somebody that I think could be amazing, I think of myself as Rocky Balboa. And I want everybody in my corner, I want to look back in my corner of the ring and see a Mount Rushmore of people saying, I'm cheering this guy to win. And I've realized that paying coaches and consultants is the greatest karmic balance. A lot of people say, hey, Neil, I want to take you to lunch and pick your brain. I'm like, I've got 30 years of experience, paid a hundred thousand dollars to Billy and all of this stuff, and you want me to just give everything to you. I can, but you are not going to implement it. You're not going to take it serious, you're not going to understand that. And the world, it's an unfair trade. Now, I'm not saying money is the only trade, but I've just realized that I want the world to be in karmic balance every time. So if I can find somebody that is phenomenal, that I resonate with, that I have the right DNA and I know that they can be in my Mount Rushmore in my corner as Rocky. I want to pay them, put them in my corner, and I will do anything that they say. I want to be a great client, because when you're a great client, they will do anything for you.

Yeah.

So it's, it's, it's less about for me, is less about the investment and more about thinking, man, when I get stuck, can I look back and say, who's in my corner? That makes me safer. That makes me want to take the 10x bet and not the 2x bet.

Yeah.

That makes me. Gives me more courage to do things that I never thought I could do.

That's huge, man. So it's an investment. It has a huge ROI with the right coach and for the right individual. And so you think about it like in the bad sense, people just trying to make money off coaching, which there's plenty of that. And you can kind of tell the bad players versus the good ones. But for the good people that are true experts at what they do, it's not even about the money. No, it's just like there's gotta be a barrier.

It's a symbol of seriousness.

It's a symbol of seriousness. And it's gotta be like, they don't need the money, bro. Like they're doing just fine. But it's just a symbol of like, what, you know, somebody with a hundred million dollar net worth and I paid 50k to have an hour with recently. It wasn't about the 50k to that individual. I don't think they, I don't even think they noticed the 50k.

Right.

But there's still that toll booth, there's still that barrier. And so I think of it that way rather than, oh, these guys are trying to make money off me.

So I say this, I'm pretty sure it's okay to say because Alex and Layla, Alex and Layla Hormozy have said this in public is Alex and Layla hired me to support them with a few things that they were doing. And it just so happens that we became friends so quickly and I'm, you know, they're my best friends in the world, but they have publicly stated that I don't stay it, but they've stated it. And that's why it's insane someone like them would write a check to someone like me. That's wild if you think about that, right? Yeah. But that shows their symbol of seriousness. And if they're gonna do it, if you're gonna do it, if I'm gonna do it, then it's worth considering. Who's in your Mount Rushmore? Yeah.

100, man. So thank you so much for being here, man. I really appreciate the, just the spirit of like giving this, coming from a place of service always. I know you have crazy growth in business because of how much you give in your content every day. The podcast, the speaking. I know from here you're rushing over to speak somewhere and then you're going to another thing. And so you're probably one of the busiest people I know. But in terms of just giving, it's awesome to see what you're doing. And every time we talk like this, it makes me want to do more. And so that's a good feeling. Thank you, man.

Amen. Thank you for having me.