Gary Vaynerchuk on Mortgage & Real Estate Industry | NeelHome Podcast

Hey, guys, it's Gary Vaynerchuk, and you're about to listen or watch to the Neil Holm podcast. Yeah. Let's rock and roll, Cole.

So, guys, welcome to the Neil Home Podcast. Today we have a really special guest. It's Gary Vaynerchuk. VaynerMedia. He just spoke. Crushed it at this conference. We have about 2,000 mortgage industry people here, and it was just a really great speech. Thanks for doing this, Gary.

I'm really glad to be here. Thank you.

Yeah, so I think a lot of our audience, especially those who follow me because you've been such an inspiration to me, they kind of are aware of your content, and a lot of you, you know, a lot of them follow you already. So. Yes, because of that, we don't need to go into. Yeah, we'll skip the, like, you know, the typical stuff that you normally do with these guys.

Good.

Just because I want to get straight into. Straight into some of the topics we want to discuss. So, like, one of the things that you talk about a lot is, like, scaling the unscalable.

Yes.

So in our industry, there's been a big push over the last several years of, like, automation bots, you know, like, you know, just take the customer from. From origination to closing, and how can we automate this whole process so we can make a bunch of money and.

Not have to work?

And, like, I don't think that, like, I do value. I think the customer values time, and I know they value the automation up front, but I still think they have a real need for advice along the way, some service and things like that. So, like, you're probably the biggest, the best example of someone who does things that are totally unscalable.

Yes.

And, like, a lot. Right. So why do you do that?

Because I think that those are the two things that matter. I think there is upfront. I think about things in extremes and finding balance within them. So, you know, using technology to organize a CRM or to communicate at scale makes sense. I'm gonna. I'm probably on the way to the airport now in Vegas, make a video, and I'm gonna press a button in my community app, which is a new text messaging app that I'm in the alpha or beta of, and it's gonna text 125,000 people in one shot. I'm not sending it one by one. However, as soon as that goes out, a bunch of people are gonna be like, is this really you? Or they're gonna say something about the content. I said. And then I'm gonna go one on one and be like, neil, it's me. Like, it really was me. I sent this. Or Sally, no. Your issue with thought process or with Facebook strategy or with management is this. So I love scale, but I think that non scalable is the equal dancing partner to it. And I believe people think it's one or the other. We were just in a room where people don't wanna do technology at all. And like, I'm not doing this stuff. I'm gonna go shake some hands and kiss some babies at the Chamber of Commerce and the Iowa County Fair, and that's how I'm gonna get my business. And then you have a bunch of people who are like, I'm gonna live the passive lifestyle. Like, I'm gonna have passive income. I'm gonna write a magical algorithm that's gonna sell all this stuff and I'm gonna be smoking weed on a, you know, on a. Be all these idiots. And the answer is neither is right. So you need both. I do always think there's never any complete equal. So I'm more of the mindset of 51:49 non scalable. Because I do think that human variable is the decision maker in a service business.

Yeah, no, I totally get that. And I think like where you pick it up. You talked about on a recent podcast, like, you want automation. Maybe to get you previously would take unscalable things and take them all the way to home. But like now you're saying, let's get automation to get them to second or third base. And then I'll close. Right.

Third and a half basis I talk about it.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, look like, you know, we need, you know, I'm looking at Drock as we film this. We need 10 new videographers. Well, okay, let's start. Let's. We used to do. I'd go on Instagram Live or Instagram Store and be like email drock if you're a videographer. And he would get pounded. Then we have said, you know what, before we do that, why don't we create a Google Doc where they answer some questions. And we keep getting better at that. And what it really does ultimately is it's very logical sense. You go from the top of the funnel and you try to put some technology in place that allows you to get to a cleaner data set that allows you to achieve. Let technology do what technology does.

Yeah.

And let humans do what humans do. I think that will be ultimately the great conversation debate and, and really the nuances of what those things are Will be a fun conversation over the next 50 years.

Yeah, for sure. Another thing you talk about a lot is, like, you're. You're at an audience. You just did a keynote. You give the blueprint.

Yes.

Here's what you guys need to do. Here's. And you always say this, that, like, I understand that five people are going to take action on.

Yes.

And I do these little community events where I talk to people in my industry. Same thing. Here's what I did. Here's what I did for my business, and I think you should do the same. Here's. Here's one thing we could do today and still, like, I've done so many, and one person has done it, and I'm like, why is that? What is it? Why don't they do anything?

That's what got me into. You know, I was so not interested in being a motivational speaker when I rebooted my content, you know, five years ago when Drock and Andy and those guys came and I said, okay, let's do this again, like I did with Win. But what ended up happening was I was giving away the details and the tactics, and it wasn't happening. And that's what led me to. Oh, people are insecure. People actually. Oh, oh, you know, this was. I needed to go through this. It was like, wait a minute. People value an anonymous comment so much that it would make them not post the next day. A, it led me to thank God that I don't have that. Thank God. And B, how do I help them start thinking about this?

Yeah.

And that. That is what has happened. It's a mindset game.

Yeah. And then you had a guy who was on the texting platform that you brought into the office for, like, a podcast, and you guys touched on laziness.

Yes.

And, like, I think it's like, there's something weird where, like, people ask me, hey, Neil, how do you have time to do all your work plus do all this content? Like, how can you. You know, and what I would tell them is, like, I did my work from 9 to 6, and then I play with my kids and my family. And then from 10 to 1, am I on my content? And, like, what did I have to give up? Netflix or, you know, and. But it's the thing, like, if you're. There's a weird thing with your brain of, like, your logical brain and your animal brain.

Yes.

The animal brain wants to find the next hit of dopamine.

Yes.

It will do anything to find that hit. So if you could somehow wire that to do something you like, you'll put in three days of work with no sleep and no food. It doesn't matter. Right, right, right. So, like, people have found that. So I think, like, when they say, oh, you know, like, how can you outsource this? Or, like, how can I do this without actually putting in the work? They just don't want to do it. Like, that's. It's not laziness. They just don't like it.

It's why people buy diet pills.

Yeah.

It's why plastic surgery is a successful industry. It's. It's, you know. Yeah. I mean, either you put in six years of working on your ass muscles or you get ass implants. I mean, you know, it's not super complicated. People don't. It's why people cheat. It's why people steal. It's why people do everything wrong.

Yeah. And. And I think, like, that's just something. Being honest with yourself of saying, like, look, I don't necessarily care enough to, like, I don't want to.

Which, oh, by the way, is something I continue to try to make sure people understand. Like, maybe you shouldn't.

Yeah.

Like, what's wrong with making $58,000 a year and being happy? You know, I'm hot on this because I know you consume my content.

Yes.

I'm definitely afraid of people burning out or being upset to make 210 when they could be happy as heck at 107.

Big time.

You know, not super complicated like it. You know, look, sitting here right now in this podcast for everybody listening, you have an extrovert and an introvert.

Correct.

I know you talk about, like. And that's what's so amazing about this. You need to find what works for you. Some people, you know, when I think about introverts getting to a place of having somebody follow them around with a film, that actually doesn't come natural to me. I actually normally think of, like, podcast and written. Cause, you know, look, you feel this. It's sometimes weird to live life and somebody's following you around. Everyone's looking and it's, you know, like. And if you don't, like, attention, you know, it's definitely something. I mean, even for me now when, you know, thank God for a lot of people who want to do this drock and I did it. Which then became the thing you could use as the excuse to do it. I mean, watching that early next 10,000 people that did it. I watched them publicly and could hear stories privately of them being like, well, Gary V. And Drock. Do it.

Yeah.

They needed that thing to point to when we did was definitely like. I was like, ooh, this. And I'm like, out there. And I was like, this is gonna be weird. Like having a human being follow you around with a camera. Where are we now, Drock? We're on the cusp of four or five years. 4, 3, 4. This will be the DailyVee001 is four full years ago in January, in December. So we're about four years in, like, you know, it's been a little while now.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that. I think that it's about self awareness and. And I wish that on everybody.

Yeah. And I think people can hack it a little bit. Like, for me, I couldn't talk to the camera. I would get nervous and things like that. But if you capture conversation, maybe that's, you know, a way around the nervousness of speaking or talking. So, like, people can figure out a way around their, their, Their neurosis.

Awareness. Right. Like, I, I mainly only did direct to camera wrestling promo video style. And it was awesome. And then filming conversations, awesome as well. You know what I was stunned about. And it kind of made reality TV make more sense to me. Remember when we started? I'm like, oh, I wonder if subconsciously or consciously this is gonna make me act different. And clearly. I can tell consciously, subconsciously is a little bit more of a challenge. But I'm pretty tapped into mine. I like playing with it. Like I'm just living my life.

Yeah.

I'm not pandering to the camera. I know the next day they'll be filming again, too. Yeah. So you don't need to really change.

Yeah. And then switching gears a little bit, like, we're talking about disruption. That is the big hot button topic. That's a topic of discussion at all the conferences that go to.

Yeah.

It's like, you guys are going to get eliminated. This is disruptive. You know, these guys are coming after you. Amazon, Zillow. And what I noticed about disruption, and this may be like naive in me, but it just kind of dawned on me was like, it's always really slow and then super fast at the end.

Correct.

So Zillow's been around for.

Correct.

10 years. Everybody said, oh, Zillow's been around. They're my friend. Like, you know, they provide information. They haven't affected my business. And then I just noticed this happened in Las Vegas. In our market right here, where our company is headquartered in Q1, Zillow had zero presence. They had a board meeting. CEO was fired. New CEO came in, says we're going to ramp up direct to consumer. They flipped a switch. They went from zero presence to the number one real estate broker in our market. They have all the data in one quarter. So those were like that, that was really eye opening to me because Empathy.

Empathy Wines is one of the five leading direct to consumer wine brands in America.

It's.

I'm doing it part time.

Yeah.

But I had the funnel. Who's ever at the top of the. Yeah.

So to me it was really scary because it was like these were deals that, that these were people who wanted to sell and these are people who wanted to buy. And these would have been with traditional real estate agents.

Yep.

And instead Zillow handled those transactions.

That's right.

And it happened fast. And I think like that was the moment for me. I'm like, okay, shit.

Like it's going to get faster. Because once those people say that the Zillow experience was good, their aunt's going to do it too. Correct. This hasn't even started.

Man. This was just the first, my first kind of seeing in my local market.

I love that and I'm glad you saw it. Just wait to Amazon and Google and Apple and Facebook and this will go on and on.

Yeah. So I think like people can no longer say, well, you know, it's kind of like it's not going to happen. Or I've been.

They want you to think that.

Yeah. And that's not to say it's going to put us on.

Wait till the NFL goes to Amazon. What are the NBC and CBS and ABC executives going to say then? Well, live sports. Well, now you don't have that either. So now what do you have? Some fourth rate sitcom.

And I think people got scared when you brought this up in Miami and they were kind of shocked, you know, because you're basically calling for, they, they took it as you're calling for the demise of the industry. But what it, what you were saying is it's time to level up. Correct.

100%. You know, I kind of used a funny reference in today's talk. I don't even remember what I said. I'm not Doomsday, Donnie. Get your shit together, Tommy. Actually, I remembered. I don't know how I did that, by the way.

Did that just happen or did you.

Like think that I'm, I, I'm so improv like that, that, that concept, those words. I'd never, I didn't even think I was gonna be able to recall them right now. Yeah, no, I do a lot of stuff. Improv. My themes are not improv. They're my thoughts. But.

Well, I just thought maybe you thought of it last night because it rhymed and everything did.

No, but. Oh, good. That's right. I didn't even think. Honestly, I'm a rapper. Drock has always told me. Thank you. I. No, I didn't. And it was fun to articulate that to the room today, which I did not DO at Agent 2021. I appreciate you knowing what I was trying to do there. That's what I'm always trying to do. Look, I think that every winery in America should sell their wines direct to consumer. That would put my dad's liquor store out of business, but I believe it. I think they should. Why should a winery, the farmer, take on all the risk with the farming, make a product, do all the step, and then make only half of the money by then selling it to another company to sell it to another company to sell it. If they can sell it all themselves. Every winery makes a wine and sells it for 10 bucks that every customer buys for 20. If they could get their direct to consumer act together, they can sell for 20. The end.

Yeah. And I think another reason why people feel complacent or why they think this thing is way off is because they have been winning. And like, one thing I noticed is, like, I went. I started the business and then it collapsed, like two years right after I started, I lost everything.

Like, why did that happen? Because no.

2008. And so we had an office of 30 Los. And it was me, my brother and one. Everything collapsed. So we went from literally like a huge office to a closet. And we just. Me and my brother just worked and wrote it back up. But it was two years of like, nobody wants to buy a house because the value is falling like a brick.

Right.

You can't get the loan done even if you want it, because the banks doesn't want to lend the money.

Yeah.

So we were just fucked for. For basically two years, we had saved money from the previous period. So we just wrote it out. We got deals done where we could, started slowly building, rebuilding. And then it's for the. I feel like for the past 10 years, it's been easy.

I agree.

Right. Rates have been great and prices have been appreciating and affordable for buyers. Right. So now we hit a point where I think people confuse the fact that you won the game is that you played your best game or like, you're the best player, you're not the Best player. It was just easy. The game was easy. You played like a terrible opponent.

Yes. So I know you know that I believe that.

Yeah.

I say, as you know, I often say, conferences, if you haven't been winning this last decade, you are all time sucky. It's been way too easy. We bailed ourselves out. We should be only coming out of a great recession, depression. Right now. I'm very concerned about the next downturn.

So what can you say to the people in our industry that like, to get them into this mindset of like, look, now you need to change this way.

I do a million of these. You're doing it. I'm doing it. You know what I would say? Stop listening to us. You know what I'd actually say? Enough. Don't listen to anybody else that's telling you the alternatives. Forget everything. Like, all you're doing is listening and not acting. So you're wasting your time listening. Stop listening. Turn this off right now. Stop listening to me. Unfollow both of us and then let's all talk in five years. That's what I, you know, like, how much more can. To your point. And you feel this. You're going through this now?

Yeah, I feel like I'm in a battle.

I've been doing this for a long time now.

Yeah.

Like I'm not out here trying to make myself feel good. I can make myself feel good doing a lot of other things. It feels nice to have an impact. And you know what I would say is I don't think our words, yours look, you know this. What do I think? I think 98% of the people listening right now need the world to punch them in the face before they do something. And they'll be sitting there the day after doomsday, whenever that is, and they're just gonna say, shit, I should have listened to this voice thing I referred to today. I really mean it. I do not think the world is prepared for a Voice first infrastructure. An operating system and a UI and a consumer experience that is predicated on voice. It eliminates the ability for salespeople to intercept opportunity. I don't know a single. I mean, I know Brands, I know ReMax. Right. I know Sotheby's. I know Quicken, I know Zillow. I don't know a single individual human mortgage person.

Yeah.

I have a funny feeling when people need a social media expert and it's only done by voice, that Gary Vee is gonna do a lot better than social examiner 39 or the social doctor. Like, people are confused of what's happening here. I'll keep saying it selflessly because I want you to win and selfishly, because I can't wait to run all this content in a decade and tell you I told you so.

Yeah. It's almost just like, let the results speak. Right.

By the way, that's all. That's the best part of my life. Like, I don't care if you're cheering for me or you're booing me, I'm just executing on the court. And eventually this will go double triple zero. And people are going to look around, you know, I mean, today when you stood up and asked a question, talked about, hey, I follow the blueprint for six months, nothing. Next six months, boom. I. What I was doing because I was, you know, obviously I recalled the event in New York. I'm good with faces. I was watching the rest of the faces. Wasn't really looking at you. And when you dropped the second part of your sentence, like, you saw it as well. Like, people were just like, really? Like, even though, like, you know, the whole time they're listening to me talking, they're head nodding.

Yeah.

And then they get affirmations somewhere else, not from me. And they're like, him, he's one of us. You know, it's like that kind of thing.

Yeah. I think they don't believe it till they see the result, which is great.

I mean, that's fine, you know, but this is going to be a. What the Internet did from a visual and written standpoint for the first 25 years of his existence is going to seem like child's play. What Zillow did is child's play to what Amazon's gonna do if Alexa's the leading or Google's gonna do if Google's the leading, or Apple's gonna do if Apple's deleting home audio device in our society. Yeah.

And, and, and what the industry would say is that, oh, it's too complicated to get this online. Like, in our last meeting, you, you, you always bring up the example of Uber and, you know, like, yeah, the taxi driver, this, it's not going to affect me. And then he's out of business. So everyone pushed back on me and said, that's an oversimplification. Our industry is way more complicated than driving a cabin.

And why. It's really not.

I think it's just like they're proving it. Anyways.

We, We've, you know, we've made it complicated. Like, the industry made it complicated, but.

There'S billions of Dollars to uncomplicate it. That's going into the industry to make it simple and to make it faster, to make it easier.

I have only interest in pressing buttons and not talking to a single human to get my mortgages done. I'm not alone. Why would anybody want to talk to a human being? Do you want to talk to a human being when you. When you register a flight we used to call, hello, American airlines, please wait 43 minutes. Right. I mean, look, you know, even like this is a fairly young room. I'm looking and I'm seeing the reactions like this was real life in 1992. You want to go to Miami? You called a travel agent. Hello, I'd like to go to Miami. What are my options? Who wants to do that? The travel industry told me it was super complicated when I talked about this in 1999. It's not that, like, just cause you want it to be complicated, cause that's how you make your money, doesn't mean getting a mortgage needs to be complicated.

Correct. And that's not to say that there's not a value on advice.

No, there's a huge value on advice. But I'd rather you text me. Neil, if I was decided to give you my mortgage business, I'd rather text you the three questions. You don't talk to me. Yeah, like, just get me the best mortgage. Like, you know, convenience is king.

Yeah. Because the time. Right time.

I don't want to. I don't want to hear your advice. What's the deal? Which just goes back to trust. If I trust you and I believe in you, we actually don't have to talk at all. I don't want to hear anything from you. What's the deal? Oh, we're going with them. Good. Thanks, bro. Here's your fucking commission.

Correct. And that trust could have been built through video content.

Everybody who's yelling that it's complicated is actually making the argument for them to lose their business. If I hurt my buddies at a soccer game. You were all my buddies. And you're all like, oh, but it's, you know, we're all the same humans. We are, but we just happen to be different relationships. We're all at a soccer match, our kids are playing, and I'm the Internet guy. And you guys are like, hey, Gary, what about this rocket? Like, you know, it's too complicated. I would debate the tech talk, but then as a human, I would say, oh, I can't use those guys for my mortgage the next time. I don't like complicated.

Yeah, I think we've focused on that. Just making the process easier. Not overloading them, trying to, you know, ask for things we need, not what we don't need, and just that simple.

And let them give you. Let them give you the information the way they want. Email, cool. Phone call, Cool. Over dinner, cool. I don't mind that text. Good. Don't care at all. Even better. There are a ton of people who can afford to not care at all.

Yeah.

They don't even know what you're saying. Anyway, let's get to the punchline.

Yeah. And I felt bad for the room when you said there's all these. There's a movement in the room of brokers versus bankers. I don't. I'm a banker. These guys are brokers. I don't know the difference.

Really, I don't. I'm sitting here right now and saying, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Meaning, like what I mean. I guess I can use my logical sense. Like, broker has multiple places that they can, like go shop it and find an arbitrage banker, I guess is locked. I don't know. I get locked.

That's the basic example.

I don't.

The consumer doesn't care. Is what you said correct.

They don't understand the terminology. Why do you think I won the wine world. Let me give you the comp. You know why Wine Library became one of the biggest wine stores in the world? Because I understood that nobody knew what the difference about the wine anyway. They just wanted it to be delicious. The wine world wanted all of you to care about alcohol levels and acidity levels and how long you should store it and what rating. I know what the industry wanted all of you to do. You just want to drink the wine and go home. You know how annoyed you guys get when you go into a wine store and the person's trying to over or the sommelier comes up and starts talking to you about the nose and the terroir. You're like, bro, just pop the cork and let me drink. Well, what do you think's happening in mortgage?

Same thing. They just want to close.

They just want to close at the best rate.

Correct.

And I would just. My entire position in the mortgage industry is like, I'm Gary Vee and I'll get you the best rate. Let's go. That's what I'm here to do. I'll get the best rate.

So they might be Vayner Mortgage at some point.

I think a lot about it. Because I think about it Similar to Zillow, which is Vayner, can do everything because I'm building, especially anything that has humans underneath it that are trying to build brand. Because my permission to the market to say, I will help you build your brand is greater than anyone's. So then every broker of any sort about anything, I'm in play. It's all top of the funnel.

And this is kind of a selfish question for me, but also for the audience. I think many people are in the same boat as me. They are leaders of an organization or managers of local teams, and they want to grow those teams. And initially I did content to recruit people in. Recruit people in. Correct. And the, you know, the traditional recruitment model. And I get hit up by recruiters all the time now simply because I'm putting out so much content. And they. They spam you on LinkedIn. They cold call you, they blast you. And it's like you're almost angry when you pick up the call because they're calling you in the worst part of your day and they're like, hey, would you like to grab coffee? And, you know, the only purpose of.

The coffee, you know, the best part of the story, you're giving it right now, and I know where you're going. Was. My brain broke when you said pick up the phone. Like the. I have not picked up a phone call of somebody that I know. Don't know who. Exactly. It is in a half a decade. And I know that means in a decade nobody will.

Yeah, well, I've just noticed, like, 50% of the calls aren't being answered anyways. Correct.

That will continue to decline. Yeah. And I know where you're going. And I'm sorry to interject, everybody. Here's where he's going. He's making content for business. But it also leads to recruitment because that's what content does.

So, like, what are the strategies that people can use in our position to grow their teams? Because I think that's the she and.

He should put out content. People will see it. They'll want to join your team more than somebody else's.

So is that a valuable strategy to say, you know, like, hey, we have two videographers here, we have content creators. Let's use this to build your brand. It's not about the company. Fuck me. Fuck the company. It's about you.

Yes.

And I mean, like, that's what I think about scaling up as far as you're doing. That's what you're gonna do.

That's exactly what you're gonna do. And Then if I enter Vayner Brokerage, my argument will be like, hey, I know there's people like Neil and Sally and Ricky, but I'm Steven Spielberg. Right. And that should be what. Why I do. Well, I think so, you know. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. My thought was, yes, strategy is 100% right.

Why wouldn't a broker want to work with you or a team member when you're what, what, you want to pay the vig to a company that gives you a business card and takes a percentage just because you sit in their goddamn office?

That's the model currently.

I'm aware of the model currently. Why do you think I'm like, jesus, should I just destroy this whole thing? Or do you want somebody who does what Vince McMahon does, which takes you as a wrestler from a small federation and comes up with Mr. Perfect and then makes you famous as shit?

And I think another strategy that people had brought up a lot was events selling from the stage. And I've seen this used against people where they use that emotional connection, tell a story, and then at the end of the presentation, sell them on a $2,000 e course. And then I'm watching people fill out the form in the audience and you know, it's not the right product for them, but they somehow got hooked on that speech.

Yes.

I've been to several events like that, and I was thinking the correct way or the proper way was if something was really going to help the audience. What do you think about the strategy of people, like, of my. In my position hosting events, bringing in, you know, like, what kind of speakers would you bring in? I mean, how. How should. How should people like that. How should we structure events as a form of recruitment?

Look, it's really interesting to watch you go through this interview because I think you've got it so figured out. I'm like, laughing as we're going through this. You know the answer. And obviously you're trying to bring value to the audience. So much of why I'm an enigma over the last decade as a personality within marketing and sales is I built a reverse engine. Nobody can build a bigger back of the room product than me. I could have that whole room pay me 2,000 bucks right now.

Yeah.

I'm a wildly dynamic communicator.

Also, everyone write down empathy, whines.

Yeah, exactly right. Like even that. And so, like, to me, that, you know, look, I think that the bot. You know, to me, the difference between hard selling a $4,000 thing in the back room or subtly mentioning you have a wine product Is, you know, for me, if somebody buys a wine product, they're already gonna also already drink wine. And from my standpoint, it's like if you're gonna go buy crappy wine at Ralph's or at BevMo, buy this. Whereas the content you can make for free. Like, you know, the content I'm. Look, I think the best event in your industry is the one that doesn't sell to the audience. It's the one that brings it the most value and then they wanna come back the next year.

Yeah.

People don't understand that karma actually outperforms short term best sales tactics every day of the week in a 30 year window. Everybody wants it in a year and buy a Lamborghini and show their mom that fucked them up, that they made it. And, you know, I understand.

Yeah. It's just the business is so focused on transactions. It's all about the next transaction.

It's all sales.

Correct.

This industry is completely a sales industry. They talk about building marketing and brands. The worst job in this industry is to be in marketing.

Yeah. Even at our organization, the marketing guy has been fired three times, you know, because he doesn't provide the roi.

Correct.

You know, so they end up canning him.

That's right.

And, and it's, it's a tough thing because it's, it relies on the person taking action as well. So it's, it's hard to do it at an organization level.

That's right.

So then like, is it just basically leading by example? Is that the only way to get people to take action in our industry?

And I've come to that realization. That's why I think I've really tripled down. If I want entrepreneurship to be, to not go down a shitty path, which is where I saw it going four or five years ago. I had to be the one, I said to myself, to put honor in entrepreneurship. You know, how proud. I mean, I'm seeing weird stuff now. I'm literally seeing on Instagram, you know, alpha, alpha. Entrepreneurs say things like gratitude and empathy and I'm like, woo. There's no debate because you can track it all. I'm the guy that put that into the system. That's cool. Yeah, that's really neat. And I'm seeing it and it's very exciting.

Yeah. I remember you asked me this when we first met in New York. You said, what was the piece of content? That kind of shifted and I couldn't think of it at the time, but I remember after, right afterwards, I remembered it was like you were in A hallway maybe going on to an event, like, almost like a, like a back hallway. And you said like this might have been two years ago, I'm not sure when you filmed it, but you said you're either on this side or that side. You know, like it was like, you're either this guy who's complaining. The government sucks. Fuck the industry. Fuck all this. This sucks. This sucks. Or here's an opportunity. How can I do this? And for some reason I was that dude who was like, fuck. You know, like, this sucks. Or, you know, the game sucks. It's rigged. It's fucking rigged, right?

The big guys are going to win at the end or.

And I don't know what happened, but that video clicked, it hit. And so, like, I think that happens with many of your comments.

You know, it's funny, it's funny. It happened a little bit here today. I think I kind of felt it and I know it's going to work for someone, which is. David wins all the time. You know, I made that David and Goliath reference. David wins all the time. Upsets happen. Buster Douglas should have not beat Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson was fat and slow and hooking up with too many girls in Japan. Buster Douglas, mom died right before the fight and he got motivated. David wins all the time. You just have to be David, because if Buster Douglas actually. What a great comp. Buster Douglas beats Mike Tyson and then he becomes Mike Tyson, meaning he gets the glory of being the real life Rocky. He comes in 50 pounds or 30 pounds overweight against Evander Holyfield in his next fight and gets knocked out and disappears off the face of the earth.

He lost that drive.

He lost that drive. He was, you know, he lost that drive. He got involved in the champagne and the caviar of the great. One of the great moments in sports history. I don't blame him. You know, it's pretty easy to understand how. But that is the game. That is the game. And I, I spent a lot of time trying to think about how to use my talents as a communicator to have that one moment. You know, this feels so amazing to me to hear that from you. Like I have the ability to communicate that in one moment can absolutely change the way somebody thinks about something.

I'd never seen you before. It just popped up in my Explore page one day and it was 30 second piece of content and look, I'll.

Be honest with you. I'll be very frank about this. I want to share this. I'm aware that most people that have the level of communication skills that I have tend to go the other way. I got very lucky that I also had a selfless framework.

Yeah.

You know, some, you know, Hitler was an all time communicator.

Well, I think, like, when you first start following your content, you're waiting for the shoe to drop, like, okay, what's, what's in it?

Well, that goes into the thing I'm spending a lot of time lately thinking about, which is like, mm, so interesting. My, my natural energy leads. The way I say things is very different than what I'm actually saying and inevitable. I mean, I. There's probably not something I understand better that then most of the audience, when they first come across me in my most natural communication state are like, all right, like, all right. But where's this, like, where's his URL on his, on his Instagram going to. Where's this mastermind? Where's this course? Where's this, you know, fundraising?

Like, that's all you see now. It's just endless, you know, and just. I know you guys got to take off, so I want to wrap up with this. And the last interview you did in the mortgage industry, you said it was a mortgage, another mortgage podcast. One of my colleagues and you, you mentioned at the end, you know, you kind of said something like, you know, he asked, well, what's your final take, you know, for people on energy?

Oh, yeah, I went crazy, right?

And I, I think everybody afterwards was like, dude, does Gary hate us? Like, is he angry? And. And I was like, I'm like, no, I think he's. It's from a place of compassion. Like, he wants to help. He wants people to just do and stop fucking talking. And. But it came across like you basically saying, like, you guys are a bunch of dicks and suits. Cut the shit. Cut the audacity. Can you just kind of clarify for the audience?

Yeah, like, like, I observe a lot of stuff. Like, clearly you do as well. Like, you're in it for you, and that's great. But like, I hope you understand how the audience feels about it. Of course you're not converting on social. You're coming across as an infomercial. You're telling people what you want them to hear based on what you want to happen. I don't know what to say. It's not super complicated. I can do it super passionate in my office, like the last podcast, or I can do it a little bit calmer right now and more articulate. What do you want from me? Unless you're providing value to the audience, the audience will sniff you out. If you're remarkably gifted in communication, maybe you can trick people for a little while. If you're the 98%, you're not tricking anyone from the beginning. And if you're at 2%, that can trick for a while, you end up usually going to jail or something terrible happens. So I think it's a good idea to try to bring value because what is also, and I'm starting to reminisce about that podcast and today there's just so much in this industry that is predicated around why all the clear consumer behaviors that are going against the individuals. I just don't understand the audacity and the naivete. It's audacity and naivete. It's a dangerous concoction. And it's actually not just this is the entire macro business world. The blend between audacity and naivete is the story of Toys R Us is the story of Blockbuster Video. Blockbuster Video could have bought Netflix for 50 million. I don't remember the number. Yeah, I don't know, you know, I don't know what to say. Like you're, you know, bad idea. Like, you know, like Yahoo could have bought Google and Facebook. Both deals were at the finish line. Bad idea, naivete, audacity, short term thinking. I'm sure the Yahoo board And the Yahoo CEOs at the time said, if I make this billion dollar transaction, will my stock price go down for a couple months? Right. And that's what's happening with Sal right now. Sal listening right now. Sal and Susan right now listening, sitting in their car, in their, in their office. However they're listening right now. They're saying, I've been in Little Rock for 19 years. I don't feel the Zillow thing that Neil's talking about. I don't know who this Gary guy is, but he's not for the mortgage world. And this has been the story of my life.

Yep.

This has been the story of my life. Like, I believe that innovation is consumer centric. It's good for the customer. I believe the customer is more important than my personal wants and needs.

Yep. And I think that is an opportunity for people within the industry to find success because it's so rare. Because you can stand out.

Correct.

Like a sore thumb immediately upon doing so.

That's why it's working for you. That's why it's working for me. And that's why it's working for the hundreds of thousands, if not tens of thousand people that are starting to understand. Let me bring the most value to the customer for as long as humanly possible, and I will get my residuals off of that.

Correct. Thanks so much for doing this, Gary. Appreciate it.