Ep 64 Becoming the Safe Place A Conversation with Pedro Misle

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no performance, just 2 people thinking out loud. These conversations aren't about delivering insight. They are about thinking together in real time. Because there are moments where you can feel that the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts, and suddenly it's simple. Not new, just clear. That's this space. There's a moment where development stops being about adding more. More skills, more frameworks, more knowledge. And something else begins, a quieter question: what actually creates real change? Today I'm joined by Pedro Misle. Pedro has spent over a decade designing learning environments for leaders, professionals, and people at turning points in their lives. But what stood out to me wasn't just the programs. It was the intention behind what he does. Because his work isn't about teaching more. It's about creating the conditions where something shifts internally, where people reconnect with themselves deeply enough To think clearly, decide honestly, and act with intention. And at some point, the question changes. It's no longer, how do I improve? But rather, what needs to become clear in me so that what I do actually comes from somewhere real? And with that, welcome Pedro to the show.

Hello, Markus. Thank you very, very much. What a beautiful introduction. Thank you.

It's really good to have you here, my friend. So before we begin, just notice what becomes clear when nothing is in the way. With that, where can you just be yourself? Untouched by expectation or performance?

That is the question for me?

Yes.

Well, I have to say that I try to, to bring that exact thing about not performance and being untouched, mainly in my case, to parenthood. which is the place where I think, well, I hope everybody is trying to do their best. But in this case, it's the place where I just want to raise my daughter in full honesty. And, you know, the world is changing exponentially. Saying it's fast is basically ridiculous these days. The values I was raised with, some work, some others don't work. So that's the place where I'm basically— What's the most important thing you want to teach your daughter? the most untouched, honest, you know, not trying to, you know, not saying what I don't do because these kids, my daughter is 14, she will completely spot you in a blink if you're not aligned with what you're saying, you know? So that would be it. And the other place, man, I would say is here. You know, I'm trying to just, Try to appear professionally and personally with the least difference between both. Because why should I be a different persona when I'm, you know, being a professional? Or, you know, I just want to be Pedro and share with you my honest answers of whatever I can add, learn from you everything I can, and share with whomever is listening, well, at least an honest view. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but at least it's honest.

Let's talk about something you just mentioned. I paid attention to what you said, and I think you used I try about 3 or 4 times. And when I hear you correctly, when you try, it actually pays out beautifully for you. Because that's when you show up as who you are, right? So if I get you correctly, the opposite is if I don't show up as who I am, I should not be surprised about the result I get. Is that correct?

I would say so. Well,

right.

I mean, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah.

So what many people don't know, especially people who know you from LinkedIn, you are running your own yoga school. Yoga teacher school, right? So there you run into so many different characteristics of people, so many different temperaments of people. And I assume, Pedro, this is the only way for you to actually be successful, is to show up.

Well, actually, if— when it comes to yoga, but, but then again, it comes to life. So the teachers, what they left us behind was yoga is— the classic definition is yoga is the path of liberation through self-knowledge, which sounds fancy, but what it really means is the teacher's telling us, hey guys, live the most honest life you can, and then you will free yourself from suffering. So melt down to plain English, be yourself, no? So what I do, just to finish answering your question, is— It works. It is, man, it's, I can't, I always say, people, we can't ask others what we don't give. Mm-hmm. So if I'm trying to help you find yourself, I must be actively searching for myself, which by the way, is an infinite path because that's why I use the word try. That's why I use always these words that somehow, always leave clear that I haven't arrived. Because we are work in progress, we are always work in progress. So yes, my only way to actually connect with people and invite them to, to what yoga invites, that is, sit down, open the closet, take out those skeletons, dance with them, make the best of it and learn something from it. But people have been placing those skeletons in the closet for decades, not even years. So the only way that they will accept your invitation is that they see in your eyes that you've done it, man, that you are honest in this invitation. And well, usually they trust. Not always, as you know, as you know, not always. But they usually trust because they think that authenticity is one of those things that just Cuts, cuts through. And that's, that's my main tool.

Let's talk about something you just mentioned. They don't always trust. No. And it's actually interesting. I just gave you some thought. Why don't they always trust? I believe the reason is because it is different than what most people experience in day-to-day life. And thus it comes across almost as too good to be true.

Right? I would say so. You just reminded me of something I read recently. Sorry, I can't recall the philosopher I read it from. But this guy was saying, uncertainty is uncomfortable and painful. But certainty is ridiculous. So I think that what happens is that we find it challenging to trust because we're aiming for certainty. Somehow embracing uncertainty— but that, by the way, if you just give it a thought, how could we not embrace it? No, but well, that's perhaps another conversation. No. And if you said they feel powerless, and we are in a world where, well, one of the most sold books of the last 10 years is The 48 Laws of Power. So feeling powerless is not precisely something people are aiming for. But in this, funny enough, in this powerlessness is where we truly find our power. Right. Because it's the power to allow, the power to flow. Because honestly, to whomever is listening, and for us, us both talking, really, what do you think you control? I mean, honestly, you know, when COVID came, you know, how did you feel in control? Like, come on, you know. So that's what— that's, that's it, you know, like people, I think what the challenge is, powerlessness.

You know, it's interesting. Especially in the areas where you and I move with high-powered, high-potential, high-performance. I believe there is one huge fallacy at work. Power, I believe, is mostly pseudo. Mm-hmm.

Ah, yes, absolutely.

It's not real.

No.

It's not real. So when you say that— how did you put it, or the philosopher put it? Certainty is ridiculousness, right?

Uncertainty is uncomfortable and certainty is ridiculous.

Right. So if you think about that, so if I make a play out of that, I would actually flip it. Because certainty is powerful and uncertainty is ridiculousness. So why people try to be in power and in control all the time is because they are afraid of uncertainty.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Which is crazy if you think about it. So if I'm afraid of something, I prevent it, I prevent to look at it. And in the end, I declare something that from outside is absolutely pseudo as it.

Mm-hmm.

So power moves, you know, I have a lot of conversation with females, women, and they mirror me the same thing all the time. If men actually would become more real about themselves, about what's going on in their lives, business, and I believe life itself would be so much more pleasant.

Oh, but I must, must open up a small parenthesis in what you're saying.

Please, absolutely.

Because responsibility has to be shared. And in this case, I remember clearly an interview with Brené Brown, and she said something that really struck me as, well, the work we have in front of us to create a better world. And she said, I've been telling my husband, you know, tell me how you feel, you know, show me your vulnerability, and, you know, kind of like open up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all of this. And one day, this husband that I don't know his name, well, he cracked open. He just one day, he began sharing, crying, and, you know, he was pouring his heart out, no? And Brené Brown in this interview said, and I was surprised that I hated him for it.

Mm-hmm.

When he opened up, I wasn't ready for him to open up. I wasn't ready to hold the space for him to actually crumble. So in this case—

It's priceless to hear that.

Just bringing it to the, yes, we have to open up, but yes, the other side has to be willing to listen, willing to carry part of the weight, willing to, you know, demystify, or however you wanna say it, the role we are engaging or we have engaged for Hundreds of years. Yes, I agree that the more we connect with our humanity, which I think is gender independent, I agree. we will develop a better corporate world. That's many times is what we're talking about. But really, really, I think that the end goal is a better world, a better place to live, you know, and, and when you, you and this, and when we book for this amazing talk with you, you make questions, no? And I think that, and I've been, this is something I'm gonna begin making t-shirts of this, stickers, I don't know, graffitis on the street. Your humanity is your most competitive advantage. That is what we have to begin embracing. Mm-hmm. Because guys, we just created a thing that sooner than later is gonna be beginning to think better and faster and more efficient than us. So what's our role then? What are we going to do? You know, we're gonna be superfluous? Of course not. But how can we not be superfluous being human? Because that's something the machine can't ever do, being human. And that's what we have to embrace.

And you see, this is an interesting aspect. This might be semantics, but I believe that we are living in a society, Pedro, where people actually have to learn how to become human in order to be human.

No,

because if we just say to people, just be human, let's be honest, most people have no bloody clue what it is.

Ah, da da. Claro, claro, claro. What does that even mean? No, claro.

Which is crazy, right?

Absolutely.

So a couple of days ago. I was in a call. It was kind of a mastermind. And there was a person, she discussed emotional intelligence. And, you know, us both being leadership coaches, you know, the situation where the leader comes into the conversation, and suddenly things don't go as expected. And then the natural reactions, frustration, anger, disappointment, attacking, trying to explain, explain, over-explain, you know, all that stuff, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I just listened. Then I suddenly said to myself, you know what, I came here for a reason. So I do not shut up. And I'm sharing something which might be controversial. And I said, guys, being in leadership, shouldn't that actually mean to expect that friction? People just looked at me. And I said, let me add one more. Shouldn't be friction the expected outcome of me being the leader? People just looked at me. And I said, look, how is this thing called? If there is no friction, there is no heat. And if there is no heat, there's no freaking movement. So we have become a society of people who basically want to be well with everyone, want to live in harmony. And probably even those— and just something I'm freely thinking now, Pedro, with you— probably even those who appear to be the most hard-ass people on earth, are the ones who are actually yearning for harmony. But because they can't find it, they fight it.

Ah, yeah. Well, you fight anything you don't know.

So if you think about that, and this is one of the reasons— I'm not sure whether I shared that with you initially, but this is one of the reasons why I started Remembering the Forgotten.

Ah, yeah, yeah.

Because I know so many people are listening to this show who think, gosh, I don't fit into this world anymore.

Yeah.

I don't have the material, I don't have the tools to appear in control all the time. And I don't feel like wanting to play that game anymore. And for those people, I created this show. So they hear, no, you do not have to be in control in order to be in control.

Well, or in that case, what I would add is that if again, we're talking about leadership, no, it's in that territory, but I think it applies to life transversely. It's that if we have to control something, is the safe place. I think that now leadership is not about the traditional concepts we have, you know, this charismatic, Napoleonic, kind of person who is going to take us through, you know, thick and thin, you know, that I think it served us in— well, Napoleon wouldn't be the example, but it served us in a way. But I think that now what we're working on is how can I be the person who creates this safe place and that honestly everybody in the room looks into my eyes and knows that whatever comes out of their mouth, right or wrong, you know, super brilliant or not that accurate, I will not hold it against them. I'm not judging them. I am not measuring them one against the other. Because actually, I think Steve Jobs, rest in peace, he said something that I liked very much, and he was saying that If you really, really wanna achieve amazing things, you have to work with amazing people. And usually working with amazing people is not precisely easy, you know?

No, they're quite difficult, absolutely.

Actually, these guys are challenging because these guys are brilliant and these guys are strong guys. Sorry, when I use guys as generic for human being, you know? It's like these people, and they're strong and they're brilliant and they're verbal and they are, or introverts, you know? And yeah, and get a room full of these people and try, you know, that's challenging. Yeah. But if we find a way that our presence is the presence that allows communion, that's what we have to do. We don't have to come up with the idea. We don't have to, you know, just allow it to organize. I don't know, it's not even organize it. It's just create— of course, sorry, I come from the yoga world. Excuse me, people, for— but just generate the energy, the aura, so people feel safe to be the best they can. I think Simon Sinek is always talking about this, is let's create those safe places. I think leadership has become that, which takes me to, in order to be that man or that woman, You must have done a lot of work on yourself.

I absolutely agree. So thank you for that statement. Just go ahead, please.

No, no, no, no, no. Because in order for me to feel safe— sorry, to create safety, I must feel safe, which means that I am in a position not of power, but of peace with myself. Where your brilliance is not attacking my brilliance,

nor threatening it.

Correcto. It's claro. It's not threatening. That would be the word. That would be the exact word. So you know, and so that means that I have to had made peace. You know with myself that okay, I am who I am. I have my virtues. I have my challenges. Marcus, he is who he is. He has his virtues. He has his challenges. And what we're searching here is for an alchemy of excellence between all of us. Not me, all of us. But that means I have to be in peace. Yes, of course. And I have to be able to be contagious about this peace, no? Mm-hmm. Of course, I have spoken about this and some people just, you know, kind of laugh. It's like, yeah, man, okay, great. You know, so it's kind of like a spiritual path towards the corporate efficiency, right? Well, I don't know if it is true or not. I would like to know what you think about that. But I think that things have come to that, like it or not. I think that doesn't matter how much you agree or you don't agree. I think that, I don't know, the world connection, interconnectivity, you know, These days, the difference between a PhD from Stanford and a PhD from UPenn or a PhD from Oxford, what's the difference? The difference from the CEO of this company and the CEO of that other company, what's the difference? It's absolutely marginal when it comes down to professional things that we can check in a box. But when it comes to humanity, it's absolutely differential.

I love what you said. Let me play it a little bit further.

Please do so.

So, you know, I'm 54 years old, so I'm halfway from the old guard in regards to management. Like, I grew up to become a manager first who was leading, but I wasn't a leader. I was a manager.

I'm 50. I get you, man.

Right. So that's the old style. And then I would say like 10 years ago, maybe a little bit less, suddenly that new leader started appearing on LinkedIn. And at first I thought, huh, something is off because Suddenly, the manager became the boogeyman. The manager is the guy who has only numbers, data, and facts, control, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, to be honest, guys, if I look at today's society as well as at today's economics, your leadership doesn't really lead into the right direction.

Either. No, that's

because people, because people are not here to do this stuff unless they're being told. Okay. It's just a fact. That's just a fact. So even if you have a nonprofit organization, unless there is a purpose which is overall the entire thing as an umbrella, people will come in with their own thoughts, with their own ideas. And that's why I always say quite ironically and almost like a little bit, yeah, ironically I would say, is that's why people are being paid So they're doing stuff which they don't want to in the first place. Okay. Which I think is quite logic, right?

Well, yeah, it's the logic we've been applying to it, you know?

Exactly. And so what you're saying now is something actually interesting. So the old style manager is dying out, the one who just had the personality, the charisma, developed or naturally, whatever you want to say. But that person was a manager, was looked up at, and was taken almost like as a partner, as a patron, almost like my father-in-law, for example.

Hmm.

When I met him, he was in his 60s, and he was that guy who was revered. He was feared, but he was respected, and he was loved. So if someone from today's generation hears that, they think, sorry, these 4 things do not fit together. How can fear and love go into the same thing? I think it must. So what you said is something beautiful. It's almost like An additional step. So this means when I interpret what you said, Pedro, correctly, the actual level to aspire is safety.

It's a meta level. So we have arrived to that, to a meta level.

So once again, a little bit cynical right now. So many leaders aspire to provide a safe space for their employees or for their friends or whatever, but they don't.

It's not that they don't, it's that they can't.

So let's talk about that. It's really interesting. So they don't because they can't. And you said something that it has to begin with me, and then I can create a safe space. And I'd like to add something to that. Couldn't it be that actually you do not even have to create a safe space, but being you creates the safe space? Almost superfluously.

Could you come again, please?

So basically, once you do the work— so I think that's something many people do not get. We did not get where we are with not.

Okay.

I think I couldn't count how many hundreds of hours of work I've had behind me. Neither can you, right? I don't think I've done anything else more in my life, maybe breathing, than work on myself. But somehow I feel that in the beginning, you have to create that safe space, almost like generating something. But with time, and I believe that's the crown discipline, Wherever you appear, that safety appears with you.

And of course, sorry to— and what would that element, bringing it to a personal level, the key element there would be not judgment. Is that I am not measuring, I'm not measuring myself against you. I am not measuring you against anyone else. And there is, there is something that I've been dealing with and working and still working on. And on, well, I try to live my life according to yoga philosophy. And, and one of those things is, is letting go, no?

Mm-hmm.

And I think that what we're talking about here is that You can't create that safe place if you're really, really, you know, worried that you're going to get fired because you're not going to meet the quarterly, you know, whatever, quarterly quota of whatever, no? And there must be a certain level. We can even say that I had a student that I really liked. I'm still answering the question because I don't know. He raised his hand and he said, "But Pedro." Could this letting go element be kind of like a little bit tainted by indifference? And I had to say, you got me, man. I really don't know, but it's worth giving it a thought. And perhaps there is a little bit, a little level of, you know, and, but I believe that it's not that we have arrived to a place because again, if not, that will be spiritual arrogance, which is basically a more complex way of saying arrogance, which won't create any safe place either.

Mm-hmm.

Is that we just, we just, it's kind of like we are just focused on getting the best out of what's going. And sorry to extend myself, but I think the example is perfect. I was now in February in India in Amritsar, And in the Golden Temple, that is a temple of the religion of Sikhism, they have something they call Prasad. And this Prasad is that they feed— check this out— they feed daily 150,000 people for free. And when I say feed, I'm not talking about a random cookie. I'm talking about lentils, rice, cooked vegetables. I mean, a full meal. And this system operates in a way where the leaders, you can basically, you don't even see them. Mm-hmm. And they are very, very few among many. And just to try to make a long story short is that the beauty of this is that everybody who's participating is truly bringing their best. I mean, I know there is a belief element here. I know there is a religious element here, but what they're doing is they're bringing their best. And in all of these, you can bring a vegetable. You can just, if you don't have the money for the vegetable, I mean, bringing the vegetable, you can clean the dishes, you can cut the vegetables, you can cook it, you know? But in this addition of the best of everybody, You really need very few people to coordinate that if everybody's willing to give their best. That's the thing. So how could we translate this, which is feeding daily 150,000? I mean, this is not a small achievement. 150,000 people a day without procedures, without strict management, without— no, no, no. This is the plan. Actually, when I And I asked my colleague teacher, I asked him because of course I come from the business world as well. So I was like, man, how you make this work? And he was saying, it is the flow of love brought to practice. I know this sounds romantic. I know you might even say it's out of context, but if we're gonna design think, We're going to bring anything that serves us from anywhere to apply it to become better at what we're trying to do. So taking this back to the original idea, I think it would be that how can we create a space where people honestly give their best, when we can respect the best, whatever that is, from the other, and we don't feel threatened by it? That is leadership.

It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thought.

It's not applicable, but it's beautiful.

I think it is. It is applicable. The one word which comes to mind is purpose and meaning. So, you know what's interesting? So when I recall my days as a manager, The times I was able to create a philosophy for my team or for the company I led, that's when we succeeded.

Mm-hmm.

How did he put it? Love is basically the element. So love will be translated for me with meaning or purpose.

Correct. Ownership could be also.

And the other thing which I actually wanted to challenge you directly, what is it you actually do in order to provide a safe space wherever you go?

Well, it's, it's difficult to say that I actually do provide a safe place.

You see, that's the point.

Everywhere I go,

that's what I wanted to go. No, actually, I challenged that a little bit. Don't belittle yourself, Pedro. You do provide a safe space, but not by something you do, but who you are.

By being. Yeah.

Yes. And this is what I meant before. Remember when I said, let's not try to create a safe space,

but

to be so the safe place becomes a superfluous consequence.

And I have to say, Markus, even in that case, you have to be prepared to be misunderstood and that some people will anyway. So regardless of your deepest intention, you know, that you're trying to pour your best, there will be times where really, really you can't create a safe place for— it's impossible to create a safe place for everybody. That is also something that we must understand, you know, and—

So what is a safe place? Let's talk about that for a moment because way too much is talked about the safe place today. It has become something like—

Ah, no, absolutely. I hate rhetoric, you know, it's like, when it comes down to, for me, no, my definition of a safe place is that place where you can say what you think, say what you feel, and truly be who you are without the fear of retaliation. That for me is the safest place.

Interesting. Okay.

That you can raise your hand and just, you know, be 100% in disagreement with your boss. You speak your mind, you know, you say that the idea he's proposing or she's proposing is not good, that you have something that you believe is a better idea. You know, everything on respect and all of this, everything properly said, no? And that you are not afraid of retaliation, or that you don't have to be this super winner, you know, to go up the corporate ladder, that you can be your same old introvert self And still succeed, you know, and I think that that is what a safe place is, that you can be who you are, say what you think, say what you feel. And there is no retaliation in it.

And you know, what's interesting, what if we would kick off the last part for a moment? There is no retaliation. Because that, for me, would almost be And I never lie. So what if— and 2 things which I'd like to discuss for a moment. I personally believe that if you are an employee and you have a boss, to demand a safe space is almost Fighting with a windmill.

Yeah.

Right? So I believe it is important to understand that for whoever listens or watches the show now, if you are the leader itself, you can provide that safe space. And where I'm going, Pedro, is the following. I, as a leader, can provide a safe space. Does that mean that the other person has to take advantage or even accept the offer? No,

no,

they don't.

And sorry to interrupt you in this moment, but there is an all— it's one thing we have to understand, it's bilateral. That is, that is actually one of the most challenging things. Because if I am not measuring, let's say, me as the boss, and I am not measuring, you know, you against me, you against the others, but you are measuring everything that's happening, you are measuring everything that's going on, you are always measuring me as a boss, then it is you who's not creating the safe place. Mm-hmm. So it has to be 360 all the way around. Mm-hmm. It is consciousness. We're talking about human consciousness. It has to be— this safe place will only exist when you have the alchemy of the people who allows this safe place to exist. Meaning that it's not only me as— and really honestly, I never use the word talking about myself as leader or boss or anything. But, but if I am the person of reference, and it is not only my spillover, is that I set the tone, I send the invitations, but these invitations might not be answered. And well, from there, you have to, well, work and see how can you arrive to whatever you're searching for.

And I think that's the beauty of, of a team. Let's say we have 5 or 6 people, 5 or 6 employees, right? And you're the person of reference. Let's call it this way. This can be in a nonprofit or whatever, NGO, whatever, right? Doesn't matter. And if we provide that safe space as a consequence of who we are, then it doesn't even matter how many people actually accept that gift. It doesn't matter at all. Because I believe we provide that safe space. You have a daughter, right? Okay. How many times have you provided a safe space and the little teenager kicked it with her feet?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Set fire on it. Yeah. Right.

But your safe space remained.

I mean, well, that is, I mean, I completely understand what you're saying. But in this case, I am kind of like what, again, Simon Sinek, with my daughter, I'm playing the infinite game, no? It's like, I am in the hope that regardless, in this present moment, she's 14, she knows she is in this hormonal rampage, you know, and she actually, I offer this safe place and she didn't take it, she actually burnt it. I believe nevertheless that the seed has been planted. She felt, saw, you know, experienced what it is to stand in front of, again, the person of reference, the person who holds the power, and she, well, she was able to feel safe. Now that she didn't do anything about it, well, okay, that's one punctual thing. Perhaps it's a decade. But hopefully when she becomes that person of reference of her own in 20 years from now, hopefully that seed will come to mind. But this is in a family context. Now when you bring it to, again, I use corporate, but let's say to the work world, and again, like you said, it doesn't have to be corporation, NGOs, whatever, when we're trying to achieve a common goal altogether, Claro, we are not operating in such a time frame. There are time limits. There are, you know, things we have to do in a certain period of time. So we can't allow the seed to grow. So in this case, just to finish the idea, I would bring into the equation that one of the skills that we must begin to be extremely good at that, by the way, it's one of the worries I have regarding artificial intelligence, is human resources. Because if my human resource person is not Shaolin level and she or he is able to choose the right people that will be able to accept the invitation of safety I am giving, Then I really said it doesn't, it doesn't matter if that person is the smartest dude in the continent. We won't be able to operate together.

I agree with you.

So now the team building element has, has, I don't know, reached new levels to my understanding, because there is no one-person solution. I mean, or At least it's going to be an extreme rarity.

And you know what's really interesting? So your daughter is 14, you said, right?

Yep.

Okay.

And I am feeling it.

That's an interesting age. That's an interesting age, definitely. So this is an assumption. We are dealing with the current generation that's never learned to trust.

Oh, that's, that's a statement. Okay.

So let's take your infinity or infinity game with your daughter. Think about this new level of qualification for a person of reference. Let's call it this way.

Mm-hmm.

The person knows what they do. The person of reference has the experience, and the person of reference provides that safe space Knowing that it's basically a nurturing process, because you know where I see the challenge is when people begin to believe it might take several generations until that safety ends. That why would I even provide that safe space?

Ah, no, no, claro, claro.

I believe that actually providing that safe space, and that's why I love. that you brought it up initially, is actually the key for everything in life. I believe literally, Pedro, what people are missing today is a place where they can just be safe.

Absolutely.

So think about that.

Well, actually, it's, it's, it's— I always ask people, uh, we're talking about job here, Markus, but remember that I operate more— I mean, my, my daily life is, is as a philosophy teacher, you know.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, man, this is a question that goes much deeper when you ask, do you feel safe at home?

Oh yeah, absolutely. And most people would say honestly, I don't even know what safety is.

Claro, claro. And for example, one of my best-selling courses, just to say, is a course I sell called Stability During Holidays, which basically is attending this anxiety pandemia everybody gets around visiting parents, visiting the in-laws, visiting this, people coming, people going.

That's fascinating.

Man, that's— excuse me, that's family. You know, so if, I mean, if, let's say if my family gives me anxiety, hmm, makes me wonder in the safety department, no? So, you know, so of course, safety, one of the most challenging things about delivering safety is that it is one of those things we have experienced very little. And also remember that our deepest fear is the unknown. When you give someone something they have never felt or seen or rarely touched, They are suspicious about

it

because it's unknown, it's unfamiliar. So don't—

It's almost as if you have a little animal who suddenly experiences love and affection and it fights it because it's afraid, it's afraid of it.

I, I always, when I talk to my students, one of the things that I, I put on the table is if I came and I said, sorry, so hopefully not, you know, you're deadly sick. You will be able to cope with it because somehow we're used to the worst-case scenario. Of course, you will cry, you will call your mother or whatever. And well, but in a couple of hours or 1 or 2 days, you'll be back on your feet, you know, on the fight. You know, I'm going to get this sold. But if I came to you and gave you a present, if I came to you and gave you, you know, people don't accept it because they don't even know what to do with it. They are suspicious. They are, they are on their guard. Why? Because they feel unsafe.

It's actually really interesting that you bring this up, because I am right now at a position in my life and in business where I deal with exactly that situation. Unless someone experiences being in my presence, they would not even understand if I told them what they're going to experience because it's too good to be true, right?

Yeah, because I mean, they don't know it. And besides, it's too good to be true is that they don't know it. It's too late. It's like, Markus, it doesn't

really— it doesn't exist. That's the thing. It's like the vocabulary,

Markus. It's like if I was trying to describe you what it feels to have an orgasm when you have never had one.

Right.

I mean, I could be Gabriel García Márquez, Cervantes, Shakespeare, or your Mark Twain.

Right.

There are no words that will ever, ever translate the true physical feeling of it.

Yeah.

So that is the thing. So what, what can we do? Because we just can't be talking about the problem and never pointing out the answer. So, well, the only way, the only way out is deliver as much safety as you can in all contexts that you can. Because this will eventually, if you do it and I do it and the neighbor does it, and we will reach a tipping point.

Yeah.

We will reach a tipping point.

Can I go even a step further right now?

Please, please.

I have met someone who experienced what I was talking about and is a wordsmith.

Mm-hmm.

And he is now going to take what he experiences with me every single time and translates it for somebody who's never experienced it. And this is an experiment which I really am looking forward to. Because, you know, when I ask my previous clients, why you hired me is clear. You had a problem that started costing you in time, money, and momentum. We solved it. But then you stayed for up to 7 years having me on a retainer. Yeah. Why is that? You know what the answer was?

Please.

You provided me with a safe space,

my friend.

I see the answer. I'm touched.

No, man. And really, really, I mean, it becomes that we are all searching For where to just, you know, lay our heads, man. That's

what it comes

down to. Claro. Lower the guard, you know.

That's what it comes down to.

Call it men's circle, call it yoga class, call it coaching, call it however you want to call it. I mean, some people need the business context, but at the end, for how long did you speak about only business with these clients of 7 years, man? It comes a time when when it's it's obsolete. What you're talking about is the human experience.

Almost immediately.

Claro, because

almost immediately that's the that's the safe space.

I believe that the issue we I don't know how could this even happen, but I am certain it did happen. Is that for some reason we believe we can be some you know that we can be independent you know independent. of our own humanity. So that is absolutely impossible. We carry our humanity everywhere we go. I mean, you can become extremely good at hiding it. I mean, that is a talent. But

that's not real.

That is a talent many people has trained for years for.

Yes, yes.

And they're extremely good at it. But I think it is something that it just has an expiration date. Sooner or later, you were just— man, statistics are that in this case, we're both men, you know, that, man, you're in the car, that moment that you are alone. And statistics are that people from certain level or age, they— men just burst in tears in the car. Because it's that moment that you are alone, you're not performing for anyone, and you just— I mean, for anyone who's listening, if this is happening to you, reach out because it's a sign. So reach out to whomever you want to reach out. If you want to keep on doing in the business world, fantastico. You want to do it in a personal world, do it. But it is a sign. So I think that we have reached a moment where we have to find a way of being efficient, being productive, being successful, being blah blah blah blah blah. But mainly being a good human. No, no, plus no. Essentially being a good as a foundation. Correcto. Being a good human being, and from there we operate. You know,

and that's where the safe space comes from.

Claro. This man, since we saw each other, we've been speaking like we like we knew each other for years.

For the first moment.

Claro.

Just look at the hour.

Just look at the hour. Here we are again. We extend.

And I told you this call will be unscripted. I started with the initial question. That was it. So,

and that's it, man. And why? Well, man, because we are providing a safe place for conversation. We don't have to agree with each other all the time.

We're not competing.

We're not— we're just sharing our thoughts, man.

And that's the fun part, you know, because if you recruit well, you have the different components you're requiring for the team or for the company. And thank God my operation manager is not the same personality like me.

Knocked out.

Goodness me, if that would be the case, he wouldn't be an ops manager or she wouldn't be an ops manager. So we'll definitely have a second round. So what I would love to do, Pedro, is I would love to have a 3-way call with the person I just mentioned with whom I'm going to do this work, because you'll love him. He is a designer as well, like you are. So this will be a very interesting conversation. So to stay mindful of our time, especially of yours, here's one final question for you. If someone feels overwhelmed, right now, which is so easy to be, right, in today's time, what would you want them to return to?

Well, I would say it's like, what makes you you? I was, I was touched by this idea recently by a German philosopher I think his last name was Pitier or Pitier or something like that. He was saying that what defines you is not what you do with your, let's say, active time. You know, I'm a lawyer, I'm an economist, I'm a philosopher. It's what you do with your leisure time. Tell me what you do with your leisure time gives me a better idea of who you are. And it's kind of like a return to you. So what makes you, you? In my case, for example, when I feel overwhelmed and anxious, that obviously I do, my return to myself is that I have always been this optimistic guy. Always. I am the kind of guy that wakes up kind of like in a good mood every day because for some reason I'm kind of happy to be alive, you know? It's not that I worked for it. That's great. I just, I'm just wired this way, you know. And when I'm lost, I lose this feeling. And that's a feeling that makes me me. So I think that somehow the overwhelm, the anxiety, is when we are, when we lose ourselves. So my advice would be, come back to what makes you you. If it's walking in the nature, singing songs, you know, I don't know what makes you you, but you should know what makes you you and return to that. That should be your safest place. You should be your safest place.

Beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation, Pedro.

No, no, Markus, thank you, man. It's been an absolute honor.

This was remembering the forgotten. As you move on, notice what may have been quietly remembered. There are moments where you can feel the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts, and suddenly it's simple. No force, no second-guessing, no internal negotiation. Just a clear sense of what's next and the capacity to move. If something shifted, let it stay. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.