Ep 65 Truth, Trust, and the Courage to Be Seen A Conversation with Troy Gregory

Welcome to Remembering the Forgotten, a space where leaders think out loud without polish or performance. No scripts, no performance, just 2 people thinking out loud. These conversations aren't about delivering insight. They are about thinking together in real time. Because these And there are moments where you can feel that the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts, and suddenly it's simple. Not new, just clear. And that's this space. There's a point where conversation stops being about expression Saying things, explaining things, being understood. And something else begins, a quieter orientation, listening for what's real, even when it doesn't belong to you. Today I'm joined by Troy Gregory. Troy is the founder of the Ghost Project and HUMaN, a global platform built around one simple a demanding idea. That truth is not something you arrive at alone, but something you encounter through other people. But what stood out to me wasn't just the platform, it was the poster behind it. Because his work isn't about highlighting voices, it's about creating space where perspectives can actually meet without being reduced, filtered, or turned into performance. And at some point, the conversation shifts. It's no longer, what do I think? But rather, what becomes visible when I'm willing to see through someone else's lens without needing to agree? Defend, or resolve it. With that, welcome Troy to the show.

Hello, Markus. Thank you for the beautiful introduction. I definitely do appreciate it 100%. Uh, as you said, I am the owner of the Ghost Project, and in turn, I own Huma. as well. The Ghost Project came first and HUMN came second to that. The Ghost Project is an innovative slash creative solutions hub where we bring about solutions for creatives and small businesses predominantly. Right now we are in the web design space. Outside of that, HUMN is a multimedia platform where we encourage people to find truth in another person's perspective. Bringing people together one culture at a time, forming a global community, right? So those two have a symbiotic relationship. Most people think, like, I think when you saw the email on paranormal intuition, most people think that, oh, when they pass away, they turn into an entity, right? Maybe a ghost or a spirit. Of course, I do believe that, but for the sake of conversation, I'll let that be slightly open-ended. But what about how we start, right? Before we come into the human body, right, and live out the human experience, I believe that we start off as an entity or spirit. And that's why the Ghost Project is first, and then human is second to that, right? Because the spirit came before the human body. Hence the V that's in human. H-U-V-M-A-N. Instead of a U, uh, the V stands for vessel. And I believe that we are living out our human experience through the vessel that our spirit has housed.

Which is a beautiful bridge for my first question for you.

Indeed.

Where can you just be yourself, untouched by expectation or performance?

Hmm. This is a very good question. Um, I say that I can be myself with my really close friends, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because in the world that we live in, I feel like people, they judge you based on the character that you present, which they feel like should be one-sided mostly. Like, oh, this person's character is consistent. And to a degree, yes, people are right. You do want somebody that is consistent in their character. But on the flip side of that, I think that we ignore the dynamic in which we are, right? The multidimensional being in which we can or are, right? I think that's where a problem lies for a lot of people is what does that look like? How do you still show consistency in character while showing your dynamics, right? Who you are through many different various situations. Different situations are, uh, different situations call upon different characteristics at times, and that may throw a person off because you might have to slightly adjust to a situation as it's taking place. So—

It's a very interesting aspect. So let me jump in here for a sec. So you said you can be most be yourself, untouched by expectation of performance with your friends, right?

With my close friends, yes.

So what you described just a moment before was why this isn't so easy just with random people who are not your close friends, right? Mm-hmm. So tell me, what makes it different for you, Troy, if I met your friends and if I would observe you? How would you be different? Or how would it be different? Because it must be the environment, it must be the surrounding, it must be a factor that lets you feel that you actually can let your hair down. So tell me a little bit about that. I'm really fascinated.

I would say what you would possibly observe is what is most important, which is understanding and giving people the space to be themselves. A lot of people think they do that, but they don't. Through micro— through micro expressions that show up on this side, from your eyebrows down to right here, there are micro expressions that take place that tell me what you're truly feeling at times when I'm talking to a person. And so Because I do read that, and I also do read how a person's responding to me, what's going on within the conversation while it's taking place. I can tell when somebody's really not like, oh, I, I didn't like this aspect or that aspect of a person, right? And that's okay. Not everything is for everybody. But those—

So you're basically seeing through a mask. Is that what I hear? That people pretend to be fine with you, but you sense something in microexpressions, which is a tell sign, right? Okay.

Thank you. Which is a telltale sign that, okay, you're really not in alignment with me. And that's okay. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. And I understand that. I try to be very understanding most times. And outside of trying to be very understanding, what I also try to do is have people understand me the best way that they can, right? What I had learned throughout the years is that a lot of people, when you give people the whole you, Sometimes it's hard for them to take that right away, especially when you're a deep person like I am and have lived through so much like I have, right?

Mm-hmm.

My friends, we didn't start off with just, uh, oh, this is all who I am, right? But there was a certain aspect of me being real and expressing to them my observations, my problems with these observations, how I truly felt on things, even if the way I expressed how I truly felt wasn't in the best of words. But it was in the midst of passion and frustration, right? In which they saw that this guy really is feeling what he's feeling. But not only that, he's feeling it for good cause. He's not feeling it to be jealous. He's not feeling it to, to cause just negativity out of negativity. He's really frustrated.

You know, that was the reason why I extended the invitation for this show right away when I met you. It didn't take me a couple of calls with you to feel it could really work.

Really?

And you're absolutely right. Honestly, we never have certainty, right? And why would we have to have it? What is so wrong with meeting people who are, you know, at worst case for most people, polar opposite of ours? What if there is friction? What if there is, you know what, and you can be sure if you and I would stay on a call for 3 to 4 hours, we would get into the weeds with each other. But you would want to understand where I'm coming from. I want to understand where you're coming from. And I believe This is something that's missing in today's society. People want to be understood, but they don't want to understand. They expect you to understand me instead of, you know what, we actually can make this work. Goodness me, we're both human beings.

Mm-hmm.

If we cut ourselves, What kind of blood do you have? Mine is red.

Mine too.

So it's yours, right?

Yes.

So I believe if we start looking at the commonalities, the rest becomes BS.

Yes, yes and no. There's, there's, there's a very—

Please tell me more. I love to provoke.

Uh, dynamic that takes place there, which kind of Leads me to a whole nother segment that could get really deep, but for the sake of conversation and time, I'll keep it brief and light. Though we appear the same, right, as humans, the spiritual aspect has to be taken into consideration. Well, especially in my life. I can't speak for everyone else. Not everybody carries the same beliefs, right? So we, we can find commonalities. But if your spirit is, let's say, on the dark side of things and you do not want to release that, and my spirit is on the good side and I don't wanna release that, then that's where the commonalities come to a halt, right? Because it's like, where do you stand when X takes place, right? And so right now we are in a space of super groupthink, right? Where people are lacking independent thought. And sometimes it's frustrating. Mm-hmm. Because you want, People to be like, hey, come to your own conclusions and you'll probably see what I see.

Because the critical thinking aspect, huh?

Right. Because people want to stand within what they would rightfully perceive as their luxuries or the comforts of life. We are yet to go against the grain in which we are being oppressed or suppressed by. And that's not just me as an African American, that's actually multiple cultures around the world. We can actually see that. Is taking place, right? So, Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Again, to return back to what you were saying about, you know, if we just focus on the commonality, everything will fall to the wayside. Well, I'm a person that deals with nuances and the gray spaces that are in these nuances, which is even like a nuance within a nuance, right? And trying to understand the complexities in which that is, hence why I study psychology. As of right now, on my own accord, and look and investigate other— look into and investigate other things.

So— Would you mind giving like a concrete example where I, as well as the viewers and the listeners, get to understand you better? So take us into an actual conversation where this resonates truly.

So are you meaning like the commonalities or the overriding of commonalities?

Yes. You know, like, because you're taking it to a beautiful extreme where most people don't go. So they would rather say, you know what, Markus, what we really need to talk about is racial inequality. which I'm absolutely open for, but you take it way higher.

Well,

you take it into, if we're coming from a different spiritual side. So I'd love to understand that a little bit more.

Well, life is, life is deep, right? And this is part of who I am, right? An example of a conversation would be, especially on the spiritual side, would be like, I'm what's called a rogue spiritualist. I came up with the terminology myself. I have a set of beliefs, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, that are similar to others, like similar, let's say, to Christianity, but there's still a whole bunch of other information that I have, right? That I've been exposed to that make up, make my beliefs come together. So I can't devote myself to one thing. I can't be like, oh, I'm Christian. Gotcha. And that's that. There's other things outside of that that I've come to realize, experience, and understand. Now, like, oh, there's other at play that I can't just put my back on and ignore. But in conversation, let's say when I used to go to church— I used to go to church a lot at one point here in Texas— and when I would go to church, I would explain that to people, like, hey, these are small ways— this is my beliefs in a small set, right? And I'll give you a little hint of that. It's like, yes, there were a lot of things that took place in the Bible that were true. Some of them I believe were metaphorical and not exactly how it's stated. But then if we look on the other side, we have extraterrestrial beings that do exist here. The government's even talking about how to expose that. So now you have something that you're already

out

of, right? How do both connect? So when I tell people that, they're like, no, you just need to follow God, Jesus, and that's it. I don't get mad at people for that. So be it. If this is the way that you would choose to believe, I am of a curious mind. So the conversation would look something like, hey, did you feel the Holy Spirit in church today? And I'd be like, no. And then they would look at me like, oh, he might be a demon. And I'm like, well, that's not necessarily so. I don't communicate with the higher power the same way that you do. I've come to understand that higher power communicates with me through people. The higher power communicates with you through a building in which you would perceive as church. It doesn't mean that any of us are wrong, but people, right, they get into their own mind and they're like, well, he doesn't know the right way, he's not correct. And then that's when the problem starts, because I'm like, well, who are you to judge me in such a— on such a large scale? If we're talking about the spiritual weight of things and you're judging me on such a large scale, how can you do that, right? How

do I understand Thank you for explaining it.

Yeah. Like, you don't have— if we're talking about the same God, you don't have the right to do that to me. Only, right, it does, right? And I call it it, which throws people for a loop because I'm like, it's an entity. That's what I've come to understand. It's not a— okay, this is something that's omnipresent. There's no human that I know of that's omnipresent. That's, that's crazy. I know of corporations that are omnipresent, but that's a different conversation for a different day. Basically what I'm saying though is that is what an example of a complex or slightly complex conversation can look like. I understand. To how commonalities, yes, we can have commonalities, but at the same time there can be the opposite of that, right? There can be a lot of vast separation, right? But what the key to where we can actually be common at Is doing better with having understanding of what those beliefs are, not abandoning your beliefs to then take on someone else's beliefs, which is what people usually think. Like, I have to abandon my beliefs to now go ahead and believe what he believes, which is not true. You, you just need—

I know what you mean.

And understand. And for— and I'll end on this note, this segment of this conversation, by saying this for the audience. People, right? We get so wrapped up in our beliefs. I even studied, I've read about the psychology of beliefs a little bit as of recent, probably over the last couple years, but I'm not—

It's vast.

Anything about that. What I will say is of my own volition, I've come to understand that beliefs are very vast, right? Like you said.

Mm-hmm.

And we are convicted by our beliefs. And so that, that's the driving force partially to our existence. And that is okay. But do not knock anyone else's belief. That's what I tell people. At the end of the day, we don't know who's truly right and wrong until we pass away. I died before, and I'm telling you, I didn't see only but so much. That's what I will say about that. All right. So

I love that. And especially that we actually dialed it down to what I really believe it is. It's beliefs. And You know what I really experience in day-to-day life? That people do not really understand firsthand that they are driven by their beliefs.

Hmm.

And that ignorance, for example, is based on a set of fixed beliefs.

Mm-hmm.

Literally. You know, there was this documentary which I really enjoyed. It was deep. You might have seen it. It was where this Black American decided to go and visit the head of the Ku Klux Klan in the South. You saw it, right? Wasn't it deep?

Yeah, I didn't see it.

And in the end, in the end, they hugged. He went out with that guy. You know, the guy had almost no teeth. He went out with his wife and this American guy. They had supper with each other, and you could tell that something has happened with the belief structure of this guy. And this is what I'm saying. I'm fully with you that beliefs can be either dividing Or they can be uniting.

But overall, what I'm also saying, to add to your point, is despite them being dividing or uniting, is before it even gets to that point is the understanding, right? Even if you don't

agree,

I ran into people who I didn't agree with, but I still let them talk and was like, okay, all right, I don't necessarily agree with that, but you know, and maybe here's why, right? Without getting too emotionally stirred up by it. Right. And just being like, hey, that's that person's beliefs. Now here comes one thing I want to add. This is where it gets a little rocky for me and where friction happens. If you believe in something bad and evil, then, you know, that's my problem because I stand for good things. Mm-hmm. So that's where the problem lies. Everybody's entitled to believe. Some people have some very evil and wicked beliefs. Okay. And I've came across those people. So, You know, to, to be fair, that's my problem. Outside of that, if it's— I believe that if you're grounded in righteousness and I'm grounded in righteousness, though our beliefs may be different, we should find a common ground to where we can just continue to grow and still pay respect to one another's beliefs.

So how do you handle it if you actually do meet someone, let's say, from, from a darker From a darker spiritual background? Because you seem to speak from experience.

I observe predominantly, predominantly, um, and I try my best to give them a helping hand in the right direction. But that comes at a cost at times, or it can if you're not careful, because while you're trying to them from drowning, they're trying to assist you in drowning. All right. I've been in those situations before. So during my time homeless, I went through some really intense things. But what I will say is, for the most part, yeah, I try my best to show them that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not a train. You know, so

it's interesting. But in the end, I don't think we can actually change anyone's belief other than by our example.

Yeah, I believe, I believe that. I mean, I've changed people's lives, you know, especially when I was homeless. I did. And actually, till this day, there's some people that reach out to me and check in on me, or either just to say hello and to thank me, you know, because I was patient with them and I just kept showing them that there is a better way, kept telling them. But like you said, not only telling them, but actually exemplifying that, right? So I do believe, uh, that there is a way to change a person's beliefs, but even in talking, it could happen too. I think it's about how you make your point and the intent and energy in which you make the point to the person.

And I think it's the intent and the energy, because if I first and foremost want to understand where you're coming from, you'll be receptive for what I have to share. But if I first and foremost want to be understood, you will be resistant. And let's say rightfully so. Goodness me. Sometimes Please go ahead.

Can exist at the same time. Uh, when I normally have conversation, um, it's a back and forth, right? So I am saying what I need to say to be understood, but it's about how I convey that. And then also I listen, so I actively listen. So it's like I take what you say, I, I, I acknowledge that I understand what you say by what I say in the beginning to answer you, and then I tag on to the end of that, my perspective of that situation, right? So then that I can also be understood too. Depends on the context of the conversation, right? And it also depends on the energy, right? Conversations happen in predominantly 3 ways using 3 different types of energy. I came up with this on my own from, uh, observation of over thousands and thousands of conversations, both me actively as a participant. Mm-hmm. And also being on the sideline and watching. So conversation happens in 3 ways. One is push, which somebody's trying to push something onto you, push an idea, push a fallacy, push something on you, right? 2 is pull. Somebody's trying to get your attention. They're trying to pull your attention. They want all the attention. They want something from you, right? And then 3 is still, right? The way that we're conversating right now is predominantly still. And so with push and pull, the problem with that is, is the domination of conversation, right? Like who's the dominating force within that conversation? And that becomes the primary issue rather than the still approach, which is there's no dominating force, there's equal understanding, and there's an exchange going on, a fair exchange. I predominantly—

Do you realize as well, just a quick sec, do you realize as well that the still approach actually goes potentially way deeper and much faster than if there would be a pull or push. Because some people, they say, look, this still approach sounds very much like we love each other, it's very decent energy, we don't step on each other's toes. No, I don't think it is that at all. Because if someone listens or watches what we're doing right now, it's not that we actually are in full agreement, but we go very deep with our own observations and mirroring what we hear and understand from the other person, which are very much in dialogue.

The still approach is based in understanding. And then compassion. Those two still approach based upon, you know, my understanding of the creation of that, right? Of what I just spoke, which was push, pull, and still. That's what I could see the still approach as. But I understanding I've been repetitively saying within this conversation, so I'll kind of change the dial and move over to speaking with compassion. Right. And that's very interesting because it's, again, like you said, it's not the, the love, the all, it's all love approach necessarily, but it's how I wanna be communicated with, right?

Mm-hmm.

Communicating with the person the same way I would want them to communicate with me, right? Treat—

It's an interesting aspect. So you switch it. So you first communicate how you wanted to be communicated with.

Yeah, or vice versa. But also, for a still communication to take place, it might not happen the first time, right? Because you're getting to understand that person. So there might become a push and pull, a push and pull dynamic, or there might just be some friction where it's like, okay, I don't necessarily agree with that. But after you talk to a person a couple of times, there's a flow that happens, and that's where the still energy, I believe, takes place. Right, in my opinion.

So would you say that one of the components that actually leads to that still approach is trust?

I could say, yeah, it could be trust. Yeah, there's people who I talk to, um, that I do trust to understand me and Also be respectful within conversation. Yeah, yeah, trust is important. I will say that.

And the lack thereof can pretty much lead to push and pull.

The lack thereof will be push and pull, but trust is like its own thing in itself, right? Because I can have—

It comes into safety.

Somebody that I don't trust.

And it comes into safety in the end.

I'm using my I'm using not only my intuition, but I'm also sitting there and being very observational. And in that point in moment, you might even think I'm at peace, but I'm watching, right? So I've had to learn how to do that, be in still conversations where I may not necessarily trust the other party, right? But I don't want this to go upside down, because if it does go upside down, that would be a very terrible thing.

So would you say there is a tell sign if someone does a lot of observation while they are conversing with someone?

No, I actually think that's really good, in my opinion. Actually, I do it. I just— you can't tell that I'm doing it, uh, because I was homeless for so long, uh, 15 years to be exact, and I had to—

You honed that skill, huh?

For survival purposes. I had to learn how to not be, not have a person tell like, oh, he's actually noticing this kind of third. And sometimes, you know, I gotta play along for a little bit. Mm-hmm. But it is what it is, you know? Yeah, I don't think that, I think observation within conversation is healthy depending on how it's being used, cuz it could be also used for manipulation, right? Yeah. You're observing somebody to see how you can manipulate the conversation into your favor or the desired outcome. of the conversation in your favor. But then also observation could mean like you really do care and you really want to listen to this person entirely. And when you entirely listen to somebody, you also observe them as well to make sure that they're okay at the very least, right? To show that you really care, to be like, hey, I could tell this is really affecting you right now. How can we reach a solution, you know, that brings peace to you? Right? So.

But there's something that I'm really curious about, and I'll share mine as well.

Yeah.

If you observe someone, especially let's say on a camera like we are right now, what is your main focus in the other person?

With me, my main focus is energy, because though we're talking through a camera, I can feel the person's energy. I've had

a

lot of business meetings through cameras, and I will tell you that some of them I was like, we're not in alignment. I could just tell by the way the person was carrying up, how they speak about themselves, things of that nature. I do pick up on them. Like, yeah, that's not necessarily for me. Uh, so that's one. Um, 2 is, how are you? Like, do you care? In the conversation. When I say, do you care? I mean, like, do you care about what I have to say truly? Or are you just hurrying up, waiting for me to hurry up and finish, and then you get to take the floor?

So I can do the thing.

Dictate the conversation, right? And so that's another thing that I do pay attention to. Um, intent and also energy again, right? These 2 come up again. It's like, what is your intent within this conversation? And what is your energy like? Because energy can be transferred. Though we're not in person, I can still see you and still feel what you're saying to a degree. It might not be as potent, but I can still get a grasp of who you are.

Interesting. So you mentioned the, uh, the micro impressions, right? Because, you know, I've been on countless calls in my life. And I pay attention to basically one thing. Can you imagine what that is?

Energy?

It's the eye. Like with you, for example, I focus on my side, the right eye, which is your left eye. For you? I focus on anything else than just the eye.

Interesting. Yeah. Mine's actually audible, like, like audio-based, right? Because while I'm looking at you, but then I'm also looking at myself to see how I'm coming across. 'Cause I'm very aware, like I like to be very aware of how I'm product— uh, presenting myself within the moment. Right. So,

and I think that is something which is obvious and that's probably why I ask you about the tell sign. Because I'd be curious whether when you're on a phone call with no camera, whether your voice is different, more in flow, more relaxed than if you're on camera, which I think is absolutely human.

Yeah. So I'll just be honest and yes, it is. Like if I'm talking to a very good friend on the phone, um, my, I have more fluctuation. And I have more characteristic, right? Like, uh, my character's different. I'm actually way more funny, but they would understand my jokes because my jokes could be kind of complex. And sometimes I bet you're like, oh, and then they catch it a couple of minutes later. Whatever the case may be, there is that aspect, right? But on camera, the internet is undefeated. Right.

Mm-hmm.

I know so much about, from AI, digital cloning, to all these people who own these websites, to the information they can gather on your data and things of that nature. So I know this is going on the internet, right? I'm aware of, oh, what does that look like? Right? Like, how much data am I giving and what does that look like? So I think that because I'm aware of those things outside of Just, hey, this is a meeting and we're talking and we're, we're, we're cool. I understand that once this touches the internet, the internet's undefeated. You make a couple of mistakes, you're human, but the internet would judge it, or the people on the internet, not the internet itself, the people on the internet will crucify.

I see your point. That's why the cautious, the cautious approach comes into, right?

Right. And I'm an owner of a global platform where I need people to come on. Tell their story. So if I say something that either A, contradicts that, though I'm human, or B, if I say something that's like, oh, oh, people are gonna be like— now there is a program that I have created that's for that raw side of me to appear on camera. Human is not that platform for that. Human is about the raw side of other people. to come on and tell their story. It is for me to guide that conversation, right? And to be the best version of myself so that they can be the best version of theirself, right? But there's going to be another, another program that's going to be behind Human called Don't Let Them In, where it would just be strictly about me, my struggle, and what it looks like to really have to fight through a lot of things while you're trying to establish That's

fascinating. Will you have guests there or will it be a solo show?

No, it'll be totally me. There will be conversations, but these conversations will be happening in real time. And unfortunately, uh, some people won't even know the conversation's being recorded. It would just happen. It would just, cuz it's about real time, not about, uh, humans.

Not real time.

It's in real time too. Um, but this is an extra, like we stripped back an extra layer off of it to be like, okay, no. We need to really make this in real time.

Like, yeah, interesting.

While I'm on the street, a conversation happens and, oh, we didn't know that this was gonna be the outcome of this conversation. This is how I had to handle it. But a funny story is the way that I handle myself here and the way I handle myself in real life, uh, off camera, meaning, right? It's not—

I feel so, I feel you're pretty natural.

It's, it's not too far apart. I just wanted to let everybody know that the part of me you're seeing here, you'll still get off camera. It's almost the same thing, except there'll be a little— I would be not even a little bit, I'll probably be more funny. And there, my talking patterns will switch, uh, uh, a lot where I would go from high-end talking to more Ebonics to middle ground to then high-end. So people who know me very close know that I have a very extensive vernacular and that I switch in between different talking patterns sometimes depending on who I'm talking to. Mm-hmm. But I am still myself within those switches that are taking place.

Yeah, it makes sense. Absolutely. It's basically a different expression of who you are. It's not that you're even switching personalities. It's just a different expression.

Which brings us to the beginning, right? Right. What we talked about.

So here's a question for you. What is something, Troy, in your life right now that doesn't fully make sense even though it should?

Doesn't fully make sense even though it should. That's a tough one, Matt. That is a good question. For sure, there's a wide range of things that I can think of actually. And I'll say this for the audience that'll be watching this, right? So that way, you know, to leave them with something to think about as well. What doesn't make sense? is how we let ourselves be governed by ignorance when we should, and we can easily find out because there's books out there for us to educate ourselves with. No matter what skin color you are, I mean this all together as this humanity as a whole. Yeah. How we are— we govern ourselves with certain types of ignorance, right, which may be produced in media instead of trying to Overstand that and put ourselves in a better position, uh, in terms of unification, right? It doesn't make sense, but it makes sense, right? Why that is going on and why it's going on is really deep. It has to do with control, power, manipulation of masses, right? Financial decline. You could easily mold people's mind from time to time in, uh, the due process of stress. Mm-hmm. Right. But yeah, that's what I want to throw out there. That's what I would say.

What is it for you personally?

For me personally, is why I'm here today, is why I get in my own way. Right? I've been traumatized and shocked behind certain things I've been exposed to. Which, if I continue on a path that I am with human, which I will be, right, there will be certain things that may or may not take place. But if these things do take place, they would be— they would definitely be, uh, I guess the word I'm looking for is beyond shocking. You know, I would be appalled. I would be, you know, I would be, uh, I'll be awestruck, if we can say at least, right? So there's a lot to unpack there. But, you know, again, for the sake of conversation, I'll leave this kind of short. But to say that, yes, I— it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense, right? Why get in my own way? Because I have to have faith and belief that I do craft my reality up to a certain point, and to try my best to continue to do so and hope for the best outcome in whatever it is I set out to do. with my own personal life, the Ghost Project, and QEMU. So, um, that is what it is for me personally. And the reason why—

So what would you say, what's underneath that you don't usually say out loud in what's just going on right now?

I would say that I love people, but at the same time, people make me very frustrated. It's something that I would not usually say out loud, but I am going to say it here. People's ignorance do make— does make me very frustrated. It's part of my kryptonite. And that I do have battles that I fight personally. I won't say exactly what those battles are, but sometimes those battles get the best of me, though I feel like I'm close to winning those personal battles that I go through. I believe we all do, but I don't think people are human enough, not man or woman enough, but human enough as a whole to say that. I think we've been conditioned to look at people from a scope of perfectionism, um, and this knight in shining armor, or what I would call the shiny object kind of syndrome, where, you know, this person, or the halo effect to say the least, where a person can't do no wrong, you know, which is, it's not true.

So. So without going too much into detail, because I honor your Your privacy. What do you already know about this but aren't acting on?

No, can you put that into words for me?

So what do you already know? You said about the frustration, right? And without going too much into details what those frustrations are with other human beings, but based on what you are dealing with right now, what do you already know About this, but you aren't acting on it.

About the frustrations? Yeah. Um, I'll be honest, you know, like I'll just take the filter off for a little bit. I know that I need to. My frustrations also lie. Within my drive, right? My drive used to be at an all-time high when I was young, and then I became slightly—I became tainted and slightly jaded in those ex—you know—excursions or in those expeditions or missions that I went on to get to this level of creativity, and it caused the disdain and distrust for people, especially those who hide their motives. And then later on, you find out what their motives. motives are, and it impacts you, right? Pretty deep, especially because I'm a passionate person. Um, so that being said, my drive— I know that I have to get back to this level, and I'm operating at this level, you know, right? Not too much of a gap, but it's not exactly where I need to be to— in order to shift what I need to happen or take place for me to get fully into my purpose again, right? Fully. It's like one foot in, one foot out, right? It's not working a 9-to-5 job that takes up most of my time or a good amount of my time. And then I have to come home and get ready for what we're doing now, or I have to go ahead and meet with other people, or I have to, um, just live life or try to live, right? Because working all the time doesn't work for me as much as it used to. Right? So I know that the drive has to be up, but it's having that honest conversation with myself like, hey, this is what it takes to get from point A to point B, and you have to start doing that, right? This is— you can't keep delaying, uh, because the more you delay, the more time goes by, and you don't have all the time in the world, right? So because anything can happen, and God forbid, you know, life can end. Tomorrow, 10 years from now, who knows, right? But, um, yeah, that's what I will say for sure. That's the frustration that I have, um, with the frustration, right? Um, knowing that I can do more, but also going into what I stated before, which is that I know that I get in my own way from time to time because— Mm-hmm. And what I've been exposed to. Yes, indeed.

Interesting.

Yeah,

it's probably worth to have a one-to-one conversation. Maybe I can help you in one or the other areas. Yeah, an introduction or something like that. Because I believe there is nothing more frustrating than to realize you're living your actual day, let's say, in the day job, which couldn't be further away from your calling or purpose, right? I think that's what it comes down to. Is that kind of correct?

Yeah, but then it also comes down to this. I know people who are working 2 jobs. Technically, I am, right? Because I'm working for myself. So do websites. But one thing I kept asking people, like, I run into people that are like, yeah, I'm working this job and this job, and, you know, I also do a little bit of this on the side. And I'm like, well, when do you live? Now, if you define living by hustling and working all the time, okay, cool. But I don't think a lot of people define that as living, because when do you have time to enjoy the fruits of your labor? Or when do you got time to at least explore other options or even travel? or anything else, right? So that's something to keep in mind. Like, I think that's where— Yeah. My video catches that— oh, that is like spiritually I've grown past a certain point that has, uh, definitely surpassed what this matrix is, right? Oh, go on this rat race and continue. Oh, hustle. No, get a billion, get a million, get a billion. you know, get you the boat, get you the yacht, get you the car, get you the lady, all these things. And like, what does it really amount to though? Like, what does it really amount to now? Some things I can understand going after, all right? But most things I'm like, when it's all said and done, God forbid, you know, you laying on your deathbed and you talking to a younger person, uh, what are you going to tell them that you did? You just chase money your whole life. That's what that amounted to, right? And that's what we are talking about, right? So it just— that's where a lot of my hangup is at, right? It's like,

Mm-hmm.

I love what I do. I love HUMN. I love the Ghost Project, but I don't wanna lose myself to money itself or the pursuit of so heavy that I forget to live life, enjoy moments with family, enjoy moments with a woman that enjoy the presence of my kids, you know, 'cause this is equally, if not more important in my opinion, you know, but this is not necessarily always spoken about. All we see online—

Oh, absolutely right. We should have another session about that.

Mm-hmm.

Literally. And you know what's interesting? You mentioned the people with 2 or 3 jobs and you know what's interesting? Right. The same is true with the ones you just mentioned before, the millionaires and the multimillionaires and the billionaires. They don't get to enjoy life. But I believe there is something about the system we're living in. It's not taught. There are no real role models. If you see people living life who have money, it's showcasing their gadgets and toys.

But

that's not the life we're talking about, isn't it?

Yes.

It's presence. It's presence because what you mentioned, being with your wife, being with your kids, I believe that's what it comes down to in the end. And at the same time, we're living in a society where cash flow is extremely important.

Yeah, well, not only did they give it meaning, we gave it meaning, right? We let ourselves— like, you know, I feel like there's a catch there. It's not only just, oh, these people Right, which I understand.

You're

right. These people did create a system that worked, and it's been working for years. Okay.

It has to be enough supporters for the belief to work.

Exactly. That's how an opinion becomes a fact, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Enough people. Yeah.

Which, in a weird way, if anybody, whoever winds up watching this, you should think about How facts came to be, but I'll let— that's a whole different conversation for a different day. But basically what I'm saying is that there is a, a mindset in which was created that was around capital, that on one side you can point the finger at the system like, oh my God, they made it this way. But on another side, we also have to take responsibility for upholding that.

Mm-hmm.

Right? For engaging in it in such a way that they—

And profiting from it.

More and more of this because this is obviously working. Now, of course, to a degree we could say people weren't educated on certain matters back then and so understood how the system really got its rooting in, right? Uh, developing itself not only off the backs of others but also off the back ignorance as well, right? Uh, and when I say ignorance in this stage, I'm basically talking about the dictionary definition of ignorance, which is to not know, right, something. Ignorance is also used to basically say that somebody is choosing not to use their mind wisely, right? So there's 2 definitions.

I agree, I agree.

To use the word, but basically, yeah. I think that we should do a better job at looking at what the future looks like regarding that, especially with everything becoming digital and putting everything in a digital space. And then on the top of that, what does it look like for us to— what does it look like for us to barter? Right? I'm not gonna speak about the idea that I have in my mind, but I was thinking about creating an idea that basically placated to bartering and what that looks like. Ever-growing—

Back to the roots, huh?

Right now. Yeah, I mean, that's what it might come to. Uh, we're seeing the gap between the rich and the poor get bigger. Um, a lot of problems— gas going up, food going up. These things are going to present different problems to us, uh, especially with Africa. And so it'll be in our wisest mind to figure out what does it look like to exist in a different space that might either be outside of the financial system, or if we're even within it, how do we start to placate towards bartering even within that space, right?

Interesting. I look forward to our one-to-one because I think we have some thoughts which are worth exchanging.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No issue.

However, I want to be mindful of your time and my time as well.

Yeah.

So here's one. I have 2 more questions for you. So right now, where we're coming to a close, what's one thing that became clearer for you in this conversation?

One thing that became— it was, it's already clear, but it became clearer— was presentation of self. How do I present myself? And am— what does that meter look like of, oh, am I being what would people would consider real, I guess, which is a whole different conversation for itself. But what some people like, he's being real versus what does professionalism look like, right? And to revisit that live or not live, but in this space right now, as we're talking, is very interesting. So that is one thing that became clearer is like, how do I balance that, right? And have that present itself in a way that is digestible Understandable, but people can still be like, he's really being himself and really being real in that moment. You know? So that's one thing I would say became a bit clearer was how I present myself. And on top of that, also in conjunction with that, how do I present information, right? That I'm hoping to get across in a way that is just enough for the public to be like, oh, okay, I understand. Like you said, I went up here, and for those who will understand will understand. Oh, okay, he went to like the top of it. But then he was like, can you bring it right here? Right? And that made me think about like, wow. So when I present myself, am I sometimes too much for people to stand a third? But I've presented myself on other people's platforms as well. And we've had some very interesting and dynamic conversations about certain things. And yeah, it was just different, you know? So that was an interesting part of the conversation that really made that part stick out to me, the present.

Interesting. Do you know the conversation about lack of trust and safety in today's society? When I'm asked, what do you believe, Markus, is the missing ingredient? And it's more or less what you said. I believe professionalism, in all fairness, is needed, but it's taken to a total extreme in our society.

Mm-hmm.

And I believe the one who dares to be themselves. You know how you say you lower your hair?

Mm-hmm.

Like, I can honestly tell you, you can see me on any platform, you'll find me online as well as offline, and you'll just meet me. Because the day I have to pretend and prevent something from happening in order to damage my reputation or image, that's when I ended. And I believe if people understood that, that the one thing other people actually are craving is the invitation to be themselves by being met from themselves level. And I believe this is something we demonstrated together, whether we wanted it or not, and planned it for sure. I believe the more raw the conversations become, the more risky it becomes, right?

Yes.

But honestly, that is life.

That is life.

Right?

You know, I'll tell you something though that I had to learn. Because I'm guided by someone who's extremely wise. And if she winds up seeing this, for the sake of conversation, I won't say her name. She enjoys being private, but she knows. Exactly. She is— she's been in my life for a very long time. And one day we was talking over the phone, basically. And, you know, I was like, hey, man, you should go out there and say some of what you're saying to me right now. She was like, you know, basically, I'm good. And I was like, Well, when is it the right time to tell the truth? Well, surprisingly though, I asked— though the question out there is rhetorical. One day I was talking to somebody in Orlando. I never forget. I was speaking my truth and I was doing it aggressively. I was upset and I was like, man. And he walked up to me and he was like, there's a time and place to say everything. And at the time I disregarded that. I was like, oh, okay, whatever, you know? But as I grew older, I started to look like, okay, you know, I looked at some people in history, like how they had to build up to a point and then was like, okay, I'm gonna say it right here, right now. Whatever happens, happens. Because now they went from affecting only one person to now possibly affecting millions and say what they need to say to people, right? So it's more of like the impact that you gotta leave, right? What does that look like? Mm-hmm. And when is it the time to do so? I tell the truth regardless. But there's levels to the truth, right?

Mm-hmm. I hear you.

I told you it was basic. It's like I deal with this kind of truth every day. It's not too like, wow. But there's other forms of truth that I'm, I'm been exposed to and that I know of, that I'm very mindful of when I decide to say those things and how I decide to go about saying those things when it's time for me to say them. All right. There will be a time where I'll say that where it just be, oh, you know, straight raw, no filter, no nothing. But until that time comes, I'm like, okay, let me continue pouring it out the best way I can, right? Because people— let's say I could scare them with this in this interview. Let's say somebody who wants to interview me, but I was just going to go on that platform and tell them a whole different side of me than which I told you, which would expose more truth, right? That person wasn't meant for me. But that also means on the flip side that I kind of shut down an opportunity that could have put me in front of a larger group of people, you know what I'm saying, for me to get ready to tell a certain type of thing, because you never know what I'm saying.

It's an interesting aspect you just mentioned.

It's a very deep thing, and it's something that a lot of people don't necessarily have to think about, but I do because of the position, because of what I've been through. I've been tracked, I've been followed state to state. I've been approached from state to state. I've seen some very interesting things, right? And I'm saying that the way I'm saying it, very deep and staring at you the way I am right now, because I want the audience and you to get a drift that life for me is extremely deep, right?

Mm-hmm.

Just like in this conversation, I got extremely deep, but she was like, hey, bring it down here for here. So I kind of knew like, okay, well, because I could go really, really deep, let me just keep it right here right now and keep it kind of basic in this conversation because the people that he probably gonna present this to may not be able to possibly keep up with this level of conversation, right? So that's another thing that I face as a person is, and that's no disrespect to anybody, I'm just saying that for me, I think that I've seen it to where I've went really deep consistently and time after time, people are like, I just don't get it. And I was like, okay, sometimes you have to just keep it at a very civilized level and then itch up to that, or itch your way up to that slowly but surely. So the more I started putting myself out there on different platforms, I would slowly start to itch up to it, because now there is a preexisting buildup where it's like, oh, we saw him here. He said this, he said this, he said this. Oh, okay. We see the gradual. Build up. But yeah,

do you know why I have kind of a simple language without being simple? Can you imagine why?

Because it gets to more people. You're able to connect with them.

I've been teaching for more than 20 years from the top level in the echelon to the lowest level of the hierarchy in society. And one of my mentors gave me amazing advice before I started my career. He said, speak so a child would understand you, because then you can be sure the message will land.

Hmm.

Because I personally feel, and, you know, this is maybe a privilege to have English as a second language, And being fluent almost at the same time. But it will never become at a proficiency as someone who grew up here and has been educated by college, whatever, right? So I will always keep that level of a high schooler will understand what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Because guess what? That's when it lands in the other person's heart. Otherwise it lands up here, and up here way too much. I want to land down here. That's why I have my, my, uh, platform.

To be, to be fair, I, I will say that that's actually my frustration. Actually, that's like one of my top frustrations is being so advanced that I could say things in numerous amounts of ways, but when I decide to really show myself and who I am, people be like, nah, nah, nah, nah. That's very frustrating, like, to constantly have to go like this.

I'm down.

I'm not saying that— I'm not saying that to say I'm smarter or I'm better than people, because at the end of the day, I'm human, right? But I believe in exercising what I learn. So I just read this psychology book, right? It's called An Alchemy of It's a very good book. It's hard to see it the way the camera— An Alchemy of Mind by Diane Ackerman. Okay, so one more time so people can see it. I'm gonna try to get it a little clearer. I don't want to take too much time doing this, but there you go.

Yeah, now it's pretty clear. Thanks.

All right, so a very great book about the mental psychology, all different types of stuff. When do I get to jog that? Right. So before I came on here with you, I talked with somebody about the risk of dumbing myself down. And I believe this is like a response to what you're, you're, you were just saying. Um, when I was 17 to 18, I lived with this group of people and, uh, we was living in Harlem. Okay. And what we predominantly did was we smoked, we ate Chinese food and played video games. And that was on repeat. for, for months almost, for real. And during that time, I was dumbing myself down. I was fitting into what was around me. And at that cost of that, I actually started feeling dumb. Like really, like I actually started feeling myself like dumbing down. And I made a promise to myself that I would never do that again, right? Like dumb myself down. What I've learned how to do nowadays is Like you said, simplify the complex. But in the midst of me simplifying the complex, I still keep a level of complexity there on purpose. Mm-hmm. Because human evolution, one of the basis of human evolution, like what it's, what it's built in is challenges. When humans evolved, there were challenges that we had to overcome. Part of the problem of the society we live in and why we are slaves to many different things that I'm not going to sit here and list off is because we do not challenge ourselves to go past a certain point. But then we want these people who run the show to continue to cater to us, but they're going to cater to us at our own expense. And that expense is about to get really expensive in the next 5 years. All right. So That's what I will say, uh, in response to that is who is gonna challenge people, right? Who is going to bring the, oh, because if you don't understand something, no disrespect to anybody, but just like how I just showed you a book, it's up to you to open up a book to read, to look up.

Mm-hmm.

We have now, there's no short circuit of information out there that a person does not have access to. that they can educate themselves on certain things, unless you—

Especially with the internet today. Yeah,

exactly. So that's what I will say to that. And that was me being 100% real in that moment, right? I

appreciate that. Which brings me to my last question, my friend.

No problem.

If someone feels overwhelmed right now, in society, which is quite easy to be, what would you want them to return to?

If someone is feeling overwhelmed in society, I would want them to return to— I'm gonna list off at least 1 or 2, maybe 3 things. One is return to yourself. Return to the voice inside you. Forget the noise. There's a lot of noise out here, what I classify as noise, which is social media, other people's opinions, what you see on TV, what you hear in music that's influencing you on a subconscious level. Return to self. Listen to what you need, what, what is important to you, right? And try to even shut out societal norms. Right? Because that's even meant to kind of box you in, which is not easy because you want to coexist with other people, and a lot of other people in the structures that you engage in are running on societal norms, right? So, and again, I know that's not easy. Uh, 2 is to find the equilibrium within yourself, a balance, right? And a balance doesn't mean that it's always going to be all positive feelings. you might have negative feelings. I believe that you must feel everything, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, accordingly, it's what you do with that energy that counts. So if you do feel overwhelmed and the stress that comes with being overwhelmed, find a way to transmutate that, right? Transmutation could come in the form of creativity. It could come in the form of writing. You might even find peace, find peace in reading like I do, right? So There's that. And then third is to try your best to quiet your mind. And not quiet, like totally shut it off, because meditation, I learned through various years, is not just about like shutting all thoughts off. Sometimes it's about taking a back seat and watching the thoughts go by. And then highlighting which ones are truly kind of important, or which ones you can get to later, trying to Simmer down that noise, right? And last but not least, this is a side note to the first point, I believe, which is do not let noise crowd your mind. Again, I can't stress that. For 2 years, I moved throughout life without hearing my own inside voice. It got so bad that I was basically starting to live, or I lived. Not even just starting, but I technically lived off other people's opinions, right? Um, instead of—

I'm sure that's pretty common for many.

Right. This is what I truly believe, so let me actually stick to what I truly believe, whether that goes with the status quo or goes against the status quo, right? So that's what I would say to that.

Beautiful. So thank you so much for this conversation, Troy. It's been a real pleasure.

No problem. No problem at all. Thank you for having me, Markus. I really do appreciate it. I will say thank you to the audience for listening to me. And if you have anything that you would like to ask me, you could reach out to me through various ways. I believe Markus will be providing you with that. But, you know, you could check my platform too at www.hvman.com. Thank you. And you could find us on multiple platforms. So it's HVMAN on YouTube and HVMAN.World on Instagram. So.

Sweet. So this was remembering the forgotten. As you move on, notice what may have been quietly remembered. There are moments where you can feel the answer is already there, but you can't quite reach it. And then something shifts, and suddenly it's simple. No force, no second-guessing, no internal negotiation. Just a clear sense of what's next and the capacity to move. If something shifted, let it stay. A few quiet pointers are waiting below.