Exploring the Mysteries of REM Sleep, Memory, Creativity, and Emotional Resilience Unveiled

Hello and welcome to Sleep Reimagined with Nyree Penn. Nyree, how are you?

Hello, Bybek. Good to see you again.

You're looking great. I love your necklace. It's beautiful.

Yes, thank you. Trying to, you know, I'm starting to do some coaching now and consulting, so here I am.

Yeah, that looks great. And also today's topic, cool, or the core topic we're going to talk about is the power of REM. And we're going to take that a little further, REM into how it plays role in memory, creativity, and emotional resilience. And I know REM sleep is your favorite topic, so I'm, I'm, I'm not worried at all. Uh, it's just like, I'm just getting ready to learn a lot. So, so, so let's just, uh, dive in. Okay.

Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, that's the, oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Go ahead. No.

No, that's just definitely our focus. You know, I, I, again, I'm, I'm not minimizing the importance of non-REM sleep. You know, each stage has its purpose, but this is what we focus on at ProSomnia Sleep. We focus on REM sleep, sleep deprivation, REM sleep disorders, sleep disparities that affect REM sleep. You know, sleep affects every aspect of your life. And just to clarify, you know, our foundational belief at ProSomnia is that not only is REM sleep important, REM sleep is the only time during your 8 hours where your mind rests. Non-REM sleep, you look at it as more like that's your body rest, but the only time your mind can rest and restore and rejuvenate is during REM sleep. And that's what we focus on.

This is why we always ask if you're rested.

Yes. Everyone sleeps, but not everybody rests. And so there's quality sleep and there's quantity sleep, you know? We're quality. Non-REM sleep is quantity, you know, cuz that lasts much longer throughout the night than non-REM sleep. And that's the quality. Okay.

Let's, let's start on this one. Let's tee up a question first on what you said. So is there a threshold for like, oh, the REM sleep need to be X number of hours to really feel rested every night? Is there some benchmark?

Yes, but we don't know. No one knows how truly REM sleep deprived they are or sleep deprived in general, right? You just know you're tired. You have daytime sleepiness. You're still groggy. You're not getting REM sleep, restorative sleep. You know, you know the difference when you got a long, you're good, but you know when you don't get that rested restorative sleep because again, that's the only time your mind can restore itself. And what we specifically focus on is the adenosine sleep response. And so with that specific neurotransmitter, adenosine, and that's really what is measured, right? When people say, how much REM sleep or non-REM sleep am I getting? With us, we specifically measure how much adenosine are you releasing or getting? Specifically, the release of adenosine sleep pressure is what we do. So once that occurs, homeostasis A balance occurs, right? It's a zero. It stays at zero. So it's just balanced on both sides within your brain, right? As long as it's balanced, you're, you're pretty much, you know, sleep healthy, right? But it's that imbalance that occurs when we start experiencing those cyclic effects of lack of sleep, lack of rest, and the non-restorative ability that it has.

Also, I don't know if this is like a myth or not. You, you are the best person to answer that. Is, uh, you know, some people say like, yeah, I just slept for 4 hours and that's enough for me. And some people are like, no, I need 7 hours and then only it works for me. Is this kind of, uh, varies by people too? There's no like a fixed number, or is it just like people who are saying they can sleep only 4 hours and you'll find they're just lying?

Yeah, that's true. There's, there's no, there's nothing set in stone that says We have to get 7 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, 24. That's just the recommended. And I think we discussed that in a couple other podcasts, you know, based on our biophysiology, like the, it is, you know, in the circadian of the sun and that we tend to do our sleep according to the sun. So there's 12 hours. So within there, you know, by the time the sun comes, that's roughly around what, 6, 7 hours, right? So we should sleep somewhere in between there. My dad is totally fine with sleeping 4 hours. Like he, but I don't mean like, oh, take a nap, like fully up and awake and restored. No daytime sleepiness, no grogginess, no, none of that. And that's him, you know, whereas growing children, my sons, oh my God, Lord Jesus. Like I have to make sure they're breathing throughout the day because all they do is sleep, right? So sleep and the length of time that we sleep, and of course, specifically REM sleep. is definitely just based on what's going on in our lifestyle and what your personal body needs. It is a physi— physiological determination, not an, an outside numerical number.

If you could hack your, your own REM sleep to enhance one area of your life, let's say, okay, out of memory, creativity, or emotional resilience. Which one would you choose and why?

Memory, 1,000%, hands down. Um, naturally, of course, you know, as we get older, you know, things happen, life happens, all other stuff. But, um, you know, I, I definitely, I need, look, I'm that person up here. I cannot function without my sleep. Everyone knows I, like, if anything, my, my kids, oh my God. They know when I don't sleep because I turn into this whole different, and not on purpose. I'm legitimately telling myself like, Mary, you didn't get enough sleep. You didn't have, okay, fine. But if, if I hear another dog bark or another kid scream, I'm gonna lose it, right? Because I mean, it's just that serious. And for me, because it, it is such at such magnitude, I have to make sure not only do I sleep that I get quality REM sleep. Um, and you know that I've had intermittent bouts with that within my life. And I can definitely tell you when I go to work, my memory's shot. Like we deal with a lot of numbers in anesthesia and I'm just like, wait, what? I can literally go from here to here and complete, not, oh, I think it completely forget. And okay, old age, whatever. But when my sleep is affected, 1,000%, my memory goes.

Okay. And is this the case, uh, in most people? Like that's what you notice when you are treating them?

Absolutely. So if you think of our brains like a, almost like a, a cup, right? And as we, throughout the day, as we use energy, the byproduct of energy as it breaks down, it's adenosine triphosphate, monophosphate, and the byproduct, the end of it is adenosine, right? And that's natural. That's how it's supposed to come. Every time you are at work and you think a lot, or you're at school or you're working out, or there's a lot of mental energy. Given to something. Our brains use ATP just like our muscles and everything else in our body. So as it breaks down and we utilize it a little bit more, that adenosine kind of fills up and fills up and fills up and fills up, right? So as it fills up, we gotta release it. The only time we can release it is during REM sleep. But if we're not sleeping and we're not resting, everything's getting blocked. All the circuitry within our, our brains, it's a closed system.

Mm-hmm.

All that circuitry is getting clogged. Our cognizant function is getting clogged. Our emotional ability to deal with things is getting clogged. Our mood, you know, our physiological functions are being affected. And that's essentially what happens when we don't get REM sleep.

So speaking of brain, so many people think sleep is just about rest, which, but you know, but REM sleep is so much more, right? So can you explain What happens in the brain during the REM period when we are in REM sleep?

Yeah, so when we're in REM sleep, like I said, it's, it's, it's cyclic, right? We probably do about 5 to 7 cycles throughout an 8-hour night, right? But every stage, there's, you know, 3, 1, 2, 3 stages of non-REM and then REM, right? So there's like 4 stages of sleep and then awake. Okay, fine. But throughout the night, we, we go in and out of Non-REM, REM, non-REM, da da da da. But it's not equal. You don't go into each sleep stage the equal amount of times. You tend to be in REM sleep longer later in the night. But in total, it's only 90 to 120 minutes in an 8-hour period of time. So when we go to sleep and we kind of go through these cycles, it's our body's I like to always think, you know, use the analogy of the movie Avatar, right? You almost like disconnect and just, this is our power powerhouse, right? This is how we connect our body with our outside world. This, we need this, but it also needs to rest. The only time that can happen is REM sleep. So it has to connect. It has to keep on being, excuse me, being aware of its surroundings. You know, these are animalistic functions we still have to maintain. So I believe that's why we go in and out and get, you know, it's like disconnect, connect, disconnect, connect, you know, disconnect, restore, disconnect, rejuvenate, disconnect, recycle, disconnect, clear out, you know. So that to me is how I think of the cycles. And so when we go in and out, but if we're not getting non-REM sleep, we're not getting into REM sleep. And that's when the problems occur. Even though it only get— needs 90 to 120 minutes. A, it usually only happens later on in the evening. So you probably need at least 2 hours of non-REM sleep before you get into REM sleep. So that, that's the importance of the, of the cycles.

And, um, but we still like, uh, once you get into the REM sleep, then it could be of any duration, right? Based on how—

Absolutely.

Hope you're not disrupted, but If you are in that sleep, or does it always like, again, from there you go into from REM to non-REM sleep and, and, and that cycle continues. So, so is this, like you said, like generally from non-REM to REM, it takes 2 hours to get there. But once you are there into this, how long will it last? Is there some ending limit or is it just more like fluctuations again? Yeah.

Yes and no. So yes to the fact that there's an ending. There is a there is a a specific amount of non no there's just let me not say it that way. There's a specific amount of adenosine balance that so essentially all the neurotransmitters in your brain just balance out. It's not like there's no like 100 is great. You know if you're at 60 or no it's whatever your body balances out. That out to be, to be, to give you a sleep health and overall wellness, you know, to completely encompass the purpose of your sleep. So whatever that balance that needs to occur, it does occur. And there's ways in your mind and your brain to, you know, balance that out. Essentially, it's a neurochemical process. All those neurotransmitters, it's just a chemical reaction that occurs and they all share the same circuitry. So, you know, if one is low, you know, it's, it's almost like this, right? Dopamine's low, so you're trying to function like this. Adenosine sleep pressure isn't occurring, so you're not having any circuitry, you know? So just think of it like that. So yes, there is a specific amount of REM sleep that you need. Um, and like I said, specifically the balance is at, um, is with adenosine sleep pressure. Why is REM sleep so crucial for So again, REM sleep is the only time your mind can rest, rejuvenate, and restore, right? So rest naturally, that adenosine sleep pressure is being met. Restore, that's when it can restore the energy sources that, you know, it utilized throughout the day. You know, you had a hard day at work, you were thinking a lot, you were just, you know, you come home, you're exhausted, you crash, you're tired, Crash, you're tired, you're tired. right? That's that adenosine sleep pressure. That's your mind just balancing everything out, restoring itself. And the rejuvenation part of it is the reestablishment of the neural architectures and neuroplasticity that occurs. It is absolutely because, okay, it's like once you relieve that adenosine sleep pressure, you got to get it out of your body. When that adenosine sleep pressure is not being able to be released. And it's trapped and it's clogging networks and it's not allowing neural functions to occur, that's when the problems happen. And again, this can only happen during REM sleep. So that's the importance of REM sleep.

And when they talk about learning specifically, so it's really just what we're saying is it's kind of like recharging of—

Recharge, right. So I'm, forgive me. So when I say that the reestablishment of the neuroplasticity in the network, That's storing those memories throughout your day. Remember, your brain had contact with outside world all day. It has to go and store it, transmit those memories long-term over here, short-term over there, decipher all this out. Is this good information? Is bad information? Was this a good day? Do I feel good? Do I want to repeat this? Do I want to establish a new habit? Because I have all these New Year's resolutions. You know, I'm, it's March. I dropped off. Now I gotta start off, all right, I gotta get my mind in the habit, my body in the habit of going, you know, reestablishing that network, reestablishing, you know, those habits. And that's what it hap— happens with, that is neuroplasticity and getting your mind to know what it's like to get into that REM sleep.

Got it. And, um, let's talk about creativity now. Okay. So, uh, How does REM sleep boost creativity? Is it, is there a way to kind of like, you know, train ourselves so that we can get more out of it? Is there, is there a way at all? Because I don't know, I've heard a few people claim it. I don't know if it's real or not, but talk to me about it.

Um, well, you're, you're a creative guy. You know, there's a lot of creative artists out there. I mean, what, how? What happens when, you know, you might go to sleep at night and you wake up with all these creative ideas, right? How'd that happen? Like you were asleep, right? Like how, how's that possible? But now all of a sudden things make sense. Uh, the periodic table was created during REM sleep. Um, you know, he went to bed, woke up and saw the vision, saw the dream. Dreams also happen to only occur during REM sleep. Um, so some people remember, some people don't. Nightmares are not bad dreams. Nightmares are nightmares. Dreams are dreams. They actually happen in 2 separate areas of the brain. So, but for the creativity side, that's the REM sleep dream state, right? So you're creative. Again, it's not just adenosine. It's all the neurotransmitters. It's dopamine. It's serotonin. It's acetylcholine. It's norepinephrine. All those neurotransmitters facilitate storing those outside memories. Putting them together, coming up with a bright idea while you're asleep, you know, and voilà, you're a genius, right? So that's how, you know, it's during the REM sleep is when those, those memories, all those creative abilities that you may have usually encountered probably throughout the day, you get a chance to, you know, sort them out, store them, put 'em where they need to be. Again, that only happens during REM sleep.

But can this be like, is it like, can you train yourself into creativity through like this? Like, I don't know, are there ways to do something like, oh, before I go to bed, I am reading chemistry. And so when I'm in my sleep, the periodic table is running. And then I got this great idea and I created this formula or chemical after that when I woke up. Is there something like that, that, oh, if I do this because I was before Going to my sleep, I was somehow training my mind in that subject matter or subject. Is there something like that, or is just nothing? This just all happens.

Has that ever happened to you?

I don't think so. I'm not that smart.

Yes, you are. Yes. When read this sentence, right? You can't tell me you don't dream about it. You can't tell me you don't go to bed at night thinking about oh man, this idea. Oh, I wonder if this would work and da da. And next you know, you wake up with all these ideas. I'm a, I'm a huge believer in going to sleep with a notebook by your bed because that's when you get all these ideas and inspirations, right? It's either, you know, after you've had a good night's rest and you're like, wow, why didn't I think about that? Why didn't I see that before? Da da da. It's just, it's all a big network, you know? So, and, and it's very, very important that people have REM sleep.

Wow. Okay. So, so you say that it can be trainable. It is kind of.

Oh, forgive me. Yes, absolutely. So like you said, if, I don't know, say if you wanna learn a new language or get into the habit. Yeah. Right before you go to bed or throughout, throughout the day. Unfortunately, I can only dream about sleep now, but, um, but this, when the things are always on your mind. So think about your everyday life. Like you don't intentionally think about work, but you tend to go to sleep, dream about work. You see the people in your dreams about work, like. These are the, these are the real things you expose yourself to. But if you want to intentionally expose yourself to something new and establish some neural networks, that's absolutely possible. Submerge yourself in whatever it is, hopefully positive, something good or a new, whatever it is, you know, the sky's the limit, whatever. But if you constantly expose yourself, and I believe within probably about an hour before you go to sleep and throughout the day, because as we go on throughout our day, you know, we get more and more tired and our ability to retain information changes. But, um, you know, just try it. How about we try it? Let's, what's this, March? We'll try it, I don't know, 3 months from now and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have read a story in, this is like very like, uh, in, in in mythology and in, in, in Hinduism, there's a story. There is this very, a young kid who actually writes in a book and then goes to sleep and next day has an exam, but he does like, you know, he's, he's like a top of the class after that.

Yeah.

And he has methods. So I don't know if they're proof, but, uh, but the, those, uh, those, uh, Those scriptures from the mythology are actually like, have roots into somewhat in reality. So, uh, it touches upon all those areas of like, yeah, the sleep is not just sleep. There is many things connected to it. Even your thinking, intelligence, wisdom, everything.

See, you're going to make me go down this road by that. Excuse me. What we're really talking about is, you know, physiologically what we're talking about is reestablishing neuroplasticity. And this is what happens, like, this is what happens when maybe with physical therapy, right? They wanna reestablish, you know, the, the neural networks to, so people can, you know, walk again or do whatever movement it is, right? So why is it any different to think that we can do it from a more mental standpoint, right? You know, I'm not exactly clear, but I do believe this is the idea behind transcendentalism, right? Or positive thinking or positive affirmations. And, you know, I encourage the viewers to maybe, you know, chime in and comment on their experiences with really kind of, and from a mental state or non-mental state or whatever, their experience of really just dreaming about something. You know, and it happens and it comes true. You know, and that's the reestablishment. In addition to the fact of, you know, excuse me, we've also talked on the connection between mind and spirit, right? It happens in REM sleep and I believe that. And, you know, I can tell you from a biochemical standpoint, I can tell you from biophysical standpoint, I can tell you all the receptors and transmitters and that's very Um, I don't have all the answers as to what exactly happens, but I truly believe we connect to our spirit selves during REM sleep. Um, sometimes we remember, sometimes we don't. I don't know.

Yeah.

But, you know, maybe if you wanna think of someone, you know, in the past or have those memories and hold onto those memories, maybe you can revisit those memories in your dreams and during REM sleep. You know, so there's, there's so much and so many more opportunities and potential out there, you know, to explore the realm of REM sleep. And that's why I'm, I'm so excited about prosomnia sleep therapy because we do use anesthesia to get people into that deep, deep REM sleep stage. We use an EEG monitor to determine that that's the sleep stage that they're at because we see their sleep waves. But what goes on in there is what's so exciting, you know? So we, we've, you know, captured the ability to put people into a controlled REM sleep state. Um, now, you know, we're, we're excited to see where that leads in all the different areas that can develop in, you know, physically, mentally, spiritually, psychologically, you know, it encompasses every area.

What's the link between specifically REM sleep and emotional resilience? And, you know, how does this help us or help people in stress, process stress and trauma? How, uh, is there any scientific evidence for this?

So this is when the interplay of all the neurotransmitters come in. Um, you know, we have a, a set of transmitters that keep us asleep, but we also have a set of transmitters that keep us awake. And it's, it's those interplay and those imbalances that create the sleep disparities, right? Sometimes when emotionally tragic, tragic events occur, like breakups happen, you're like so emotionally distraught you can't sleep, you know? And it's, it's those things. And that's how sleep is affected by emotions and emotions are affected by sleep. It's all interplay because it's in our brains, it's in our mind, you know? And they all similarly Share the same neural network, so it's just like driving on a highway and then the roads, you know, in the streets. You know, you can take a street to go this way, but eventually you're going to have to take the highway. You know, so and if one of those pathways are disrupted or blocked or affected by you know a physical injury or neurotransmitter imbalances, that's when you know the emotional dysregulations occur. That's when the sleep issues occur. You know, like I always say, sleep affects every aspect. of, of your life, you know, emotionally as well, because all of that, those emotional regulations all occur in your brain.

And a little bit about habits. So people who drink alcohol and, you know, take even like take sleep aids more often to think they're getting good sleep. You know, there's this myth like, oh, I drank, so I'll sleep well. But how does that work? Does it really have any effect on this REM sleep or, or actually it is, or is it like actually just hurting the REM sleep? What's the, what's the truth?

Well, I can't generalize because there's so many that do so many different things. However, 9 times out of 10, they affect the receptors, GABA, that help us, alcohol specifically, right? So what that does is it blocks the GABA receptors. It's the GABA neurotransmitter that makes us sleepy and keeps us asleep throughout the night. It's, it's a very prevalent neurotransmitter, and that's what keeps us sleepy. That's what stops the neural networks from connecting. Like in the daytime when you're up and you're awake, your neurons are connect— talking all day, you know, all day, you know, they're, they're firing back and forth, talking, talking, talking. But when it's time to go to sleep, you don't want all that going on. It's GABA that stops that. So if GABA is interrupted, some of this, you know, you're here, you're not here, you're here. You know, that's why a lot of people have what we call fragmented sleep with some drugs and alcohol because it affects that GABA, you know, connectivity, right? It blocks it essentially, or it enhances it. Like alcohol, for instance, it blocks it, but it also enhances it. I know it sounds crazy, but it blocks the receptor. So there's still activity that can occur, but you have to be very, very careful cuz at a limit, too much blockage and then your GABA, and that's when the respiratory issues occur. So, you know, it's, it's almost like a balance. So when it, when it binds to the GABA receptors, it releases GABA. So I shouldn't say block. Okay. That's not the proper word. I'm just trying to keep it like super simple. But when it, it, it releases a lot of GABA, so it almost like, um, I, I'm trying to think of like an analogy, but it's almost like, uh, I don't know. I, I wanted to say something, but it, uh, no, it just, it just enhances the effect of alcohol. So that's why when you add the multi— when you start adding multiple drugs together, um, you know, we, it, it attenuates and it, it releases more GABA and just makes it more sensitive. That's the word I should say. It makes it— alcohol makes the GABA receptor more sensitive. Um, but it also doesn't allow the full release, so it may take you a little bit longer to go to sleep. So that's why people can drink and drink and drink and drink all night before they pass out, because the full amount of GABA to actually put them down is not— that's, that's what I kind of meant by block. It doesn't fully allow it to come out. I know that was too confusing.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, um, now let's talk about a little bit about dreams. You said that dreams happens when we are in REM sleep, REM, and, and, uh, so I guess 2 questions, right? Like, first is like basic, like, why do we even get dreams? Right? So, well, like, I don't, I don't, I never understand and I never understood, but would love to know.

Yeah.

And do our dreams actually serve some sort of a biological function, or is it like we sh— we must have it, then it's kind of like serving a purpose? Yeah. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Sure. Um, it just, it just depends on what perspective you wanna look at it. Um, dreams are, are, are memories that occur while we're asleep, right? I actually don't remember my dreams. So essentially dreams are just a memory of whatever you can remember from that night. And then a lot of times, like I said, it's an interplay. It's, it's, you know, it's hard to oversimplify all the different, you know, effects that your brain has during dream state, um, or, you know, different stages your brain is going through during dream state. But to say that you woke up and it's like, oh, I had this dream about fill in the blank, you know, it's like, ugh.

Yeah.

Is it true? Is it just a memory? You know, it's almost like having a drunken memory, essentially. It's the same thing. You know, a dream is not, you know, usually it's happy. You know, most, you know, I had a dream about, you know, and that could be stored memories. So in full transparency, I'm not sure the purpose that dreams serve. I can tell you what potential— potentially happens. Um, in your brain during dream state. But I'm really not sure the purpose of dreams. Um, I do think part of it is, uh, fragmented events from the day that your mind is storing, maybe long-term memory. Um, and then short-term memory, and it's just like long, you know, other things that have happened, emotional responses that you may, you know, be feeling. Um, I know sometimes if it's, if I've had the like sensation of falling, you You know, during my sleep, or I've had a sensation of like choking in my sleep, but I'm having an asthma attack, right? Um, so it, it's a lot of, it's hard to say how we cognizantly decipher our dreams once we work up, wake up, you know? So I'm not really sure, but I, I mean, obviously they serve a purpose. Um, you know, it's, it's nice when people can say, oh, I had a dream about, what do you think that means?

Right.

I mean, go for it. You know, if it'll make you feel better or make you happy or increase your dopamine levels or serotonin levels, or, you know, how this, oh, look, I saw this hot guy at work. Oh my God, I dreamed about him last night. Oh my God. You know, it's like, you know what I mean? That type of thing, right? What, what is that? What does all of that mean? Right? I don't know.

Yeah, it's a, it's a mystery in that way. And also—

It needs to be explored for sure.

Yeah. Also like, uh, also like not, uh, you know, like, uh, some people don't get dreams or at least don't remember it. Right.

Mm-hmm. I don't remember my dreams.

Yeah. So I don't know if it is like, do you really not get dreams or you just don't remember it? Maybe it's, that's a, maybe, maybe that's a better, uh, sleep state because you're so deep in sleep.

Right, right, right. I mean, That's, you know, that's why I always say keep a notepad by the bed. Like even when you wake up, you may not understand it, but then you'll go back and read it and be like, oh wow. And then you're like, oh, I wonder, or I wonder if I had this dream because the TV was on all night. You know?

Yeah. Correlation too.

Mm-hmm.

Like correlations to the things that have happened in your life and stuff.

Because remember, we're all, we still have to maintain a connection to the outside world. You know, we can't fully disassociate. We can't fully be an avatar. Right? So we have to cycle throughout the night. And, you know, even then, I believe that's why your hearing is the last to go and the first to come back when you're asleep. So oftentimes people will hear things, will hear the air conditioner kick off, and I'm having a dream about, you know, a, a war. You know what I mean? So it's just, it, it's just those things. That's why you have to be very, very cognizant of sounds at night and dark. You know, cuz you're not sure how your mind and your body will interpret that while you're asleep.

Yeah. Wow. So true. Yeah. Uh, okay. So now I guess talk about, um, like a patient or a case, of course, uh, you know, sharing without their identifiable information where improving their REM sleep kind of like completely changed their life. And they're like, you know, this is complete shift from where they were. And then tell us like, what, what exactly was that transformation?

Yeah, I'm really excited about, um, so it was our idiopathic hypersomnia patient. Um, you know, she was, she, you know, it seems counterintuitive, so forgive me. Idiopathic hypersomnia, um, is almost like an unknown reason why people need extended Some identified time, extended amount of time to sleep throughout the day. And it's really debilitating. It's in the family of narcolepsy, like narcolepsy 1 and 2. And I think this would be like narcolepsy 3. They may be categorizing it. Don't quote me on that, but I'm pretty sure idiopathic hypersomnia definitely goes in that group of sleep disparities. So what's happening with them, those individuals usually tend to need At least 10 to 12 hours of sleep every day. Um, and like uninterrupted sleep. So, um, this particular person came to us not understanding why they were sleeping so much. Naturally, they had been prescribed antidepressants. Um, other health issues were considered, you know, thyroid issues, all the other, you know, identifiable reasons. As to why this person needed 10 to 12 hours of sleep to where it was preventing them to having a normal functioning life. Work was a problem. Childcare was an issue. Relationships were an issue. So they came to— their friend called us, said, hey, can— this is— I love her to death, but this is really— this is bad. We don't even know what to do. We did some You came up. And so when they called us, it seems counterintuitive to come to us for prosomnia sleep therapy. Like, why would I give someone who sleeps 12 hours a day more sleep, right? But this is definitely one of those times where you can identify the 2 sleeps. In idiopathic hypersomnia, in this particular case, is, was the release of too much GABA. Um, so in their brains, GABA, the neurotransmitter that puts you to sleep, that doesn't make this happen, was, there was too much of it, right? There was an imbalance of it. Balance is important, but there was too much of it. So that person stayed asleep naturally. Their body was doing exactly what it was supposed to do. However, they couldn't really identify, I mean, they had been on all the, you know, drugs and that, but they weren't They still weren't functioning properly, right? So at that time, they were only on antidepressants. So brought them in, we gave them, we gave them a prosomnious sleep session. She literally cried when she woke up. She said, I've never had that type of sleep in a very, very long time. Because what we gave her was REM sleep. Even though these people have this sleep, they get a lot of non-REM sleep. They get a lot of quality sleep. They don't get quality sleep. So we were able to at least relieve the— they call it sleep inertia. We were at least able to relieve the sleep inertia. However, she still was sleeping with too much GABA. So in anesthesia, we actually have drugs that block GABA receptors. So we put her on sublingual flumazenil. So very low dose so she could at least function throughout the day. And she, when it was like time for her to maybe pick up her son or like make dinner or go to work, she would just pop one. And what that would do is it would block her from staying sleepy, right? So the Flumazenil would block it. So we would block those GABA receptors. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't just not doing anything. Some of them were allowed to fire. So at least she could fire and function and fire, function, fire, function, because it was blocked over here, right? Before it was just— all she could do. The imbalance was too high. So we just blocked it a little bit, brought her here so she's functioning, got her some rest, and now she's, she's very happy. She's very— she has a full-time job. Um, she takes care of her son. Her relationships are better. You know, I'm really— it really has improved her quality of life, and that really makes me feel good. I'm so grateful, you know, we were, we were able to help her in that way.

Wow. That's like, uh, Transformational. That's what it—

Yeah. Yeah, it really was. Yeah. Wow. She cried. She cried. She was, you know, she was like, she, I can go play tennis and do stuff, you know, hang out. Like those are the type of things she want. Those are normal life things, right? It's not her fault. Like we just, we just didn't, no one really knew how to help her yet, you know? And that's how the sleep industry is evolving. Um, we're finding new and incredible ways. You know, from this perspective of EEG and neurology and neurotransmitters and balancing out REM sleep, you know, looking at things from sleep from a neurological perspective, um, um, has really, really is a game changer and I'm so excited. Wow.

Um, and with this, we come to the end of today's conversation, but, uh, Nyree, we know that you are going to be speaking at a sleep conference. Do you wanna quickly give a brief intro about that, how people can find it and where is it?

Tell us about it. Yeah, I'm so excited. So March 28th, I will be speaking on the dynamic duo of anesthesia and EEG monitoring. I'm looking at how we use it at Prosomnia Sleep and what we look for And the sleep disparities we're identifying with prosomnias sleep sessions and using EEG to really identify what's going on in people's brains when they go to sleep. So that's March 28th in Philadelphia, the Live Casino. I think it's from 7 AM to 7 PM. I'm speaking at 11. So please feel free. I'll also be around. I'm doing some book signings for our book also, Why We Don't Sleep. Again, I really dive into the neurological and the neurophysiology that's going on in your brain when you're sleeping, why those imbalances are occurring, especially with menopause and menopause and obstructive sleep apnea and idiopathic hypersomnia. And, you know, I really target those things in the book. So between the sleep conference in Philly and the book, everyone should be well informed.

And if you still have troubles, you know where to get and reach out to Nyree and get to prosomnia sleep therapy. And that's the way to go about it. And by the way, we'll put the links to the book. You will also see all the information of the conference with wherever you get your podcast and information. So that information will be also there. This is, uh, in, in a hybrid conference. You can be in person.

Right. Yeah, absolutely.

And there is also online thing, which you can find more information from the link, which is, I think it's the, the link is philadelphiasleepconference.com, right?

Yeah.

Okay. So, wow. Exciting. Uh, well, Nyree, we are looking forward to your talk. Really excited. And then we'll talk about that talk once you're back.

Sounds good.

Thank you for your time. Much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your insights. And once again, everyone, feel rested.

Thank you. Take care. Stay rested.