Your Blueprint for Better Rest

And we are back. Episode 2 for Sleep Reimagined by Nyree Penn. Nyree, how are you?

I'm so great. Thank you so much, Bye-bye.

All right. So, Mary, today it's the, I, I call it like a deep digging into what is REM and what is deep sleep. And we briefly touched about these topics in the last episode, but today we want to get deeper into everything and more understanding so we can understand our sleeps better and have a, like you like to say it, a restful life, restful sleep.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

So first question, can you break down the different stages of sleep and why each is so critical to our health and well-being?

Absolutely. First, Vivek, I want to say this is our second episode, and this past week has absolutely been amazing with the response and the support that, you know, I've really gotten about this podcast. I really, really want to thank you. Um, Monday was actually my birthday, hence the roses, but Saturday was Presomnia Sleep's birthday. So it's our 1-year anniversary. And, um, you know, we have the book and the flowers, but again, I just want to thank you for making that this really, really a great birthday for me and the company because, um, I— this— what you're doing is absolutely phenomenal. And I thank you for getting the message of sleep health and wellness out there for people. Thank you.

Well, I'm just helping you facilitate and get your voices amplified and world needs to hear it. And secondly, I didn't know it was your birthday. Happy birthday, belated. And also, Rasamnia Sleep, one more year on the books and the next one will be even bigger and better.

From your mouth to God's ears. So, okay.

Now, go ahead.

Okay. So, um, yes. So to answer your question, um, The different stages of sleep. So essentially, there's 4 stages of sleep. And I wish I had a, like, a graph or something to show you, but the 4 stages of sleep, 3 of those are considered non-REM sleep. So non-rapid eye movement sleep. And the 4th stage is called REM sleep, rapid eye movement sleep, right? And so that's the one that, you know, we focus on in prosomnia sleep. But for most people, you start with the 4 stages, right? Um, so stage 1 is like your light sleep. That's when you're kind of just like nodding off. You're, you know, you're, you're sleepy, but you're like, uh, um, if somebody disrupts you, some noise or something, okay, fine. That's just— you're just taking a catnap, right? Um, and the science behind that is that, you know, we prepare— that's the time to prepare your mind and your body to go into a deeper sleep. So that actually has a purpose. The second stage is your light REM sleep. You're a little bit deeper in sleep, but this is the part where your your physical aspect of sleeping happens. It's like your body temperature starts to drop, your heart rate stabilizes, and when we see it at the clinic, it creates sleep spindles, which are these random bursts of activity, right? And this is kind of like your brain sorting through the day's events, trying to figure out okay now we're going to prepare to kind of. Consolidate. And this is actually where most people spend the most amount of time asleep, in this stage, the second stage. And then there's stage 3. That's the deep sleep, non-REM stage 3. That's the one you hear about in publications. That's the one, you know, that they kind of contribute to the restorative stage, the non-REM deep sleep, right? It absolutely has a purpose as well. However, like I said, stage 2, it slowed down your heart rate. But this is when the blood flow to your muscles and tissue repair occurs. And this is where your immune system starts to build in that non-REM sleep. And this is a stage that's really important for athletes because this is where growth hormone is released. Um, so that deep sleep, that non-REM sleep is more essential for like physical recovery, muscle repair, immune, overall cellular healing, right? And just naturally, this is when we physically feel depleted when we don't get enough non-REM sleep. And then you have the fourth stage, my favorite stage, REM sleep, right? That's our dream stage. That's when the magic happens, right? REM stands for, again, rapid eye movement. Okay. But during this stage, when we see it on our EEG monitor, it shows up as like brain activity spikes, right? And this is kind of the part where I like to think of it like—I'm not saying this is what happens, but this is just like an avatar. This is where it's almost like your mind disconnects from your body because this is the stage where your body is absolutely paralyzed, and it's supposed to prevent you from acting out your dreams. Some people do REM sleep disorders, but for the most part, the average person without any type of sleep disparities, this is the purpose of REM sleep: you become almost paralyzed. And this is also the stage where your mind gets an opportunity to rest, right? So I like to think of it as your brain's therapy session. So this is also the process like emotion and creativity and your dreams solidifies memories. And for us, what's especially important is this is also where the glymphatic clearance happens. And so that's the targeted approach of prosomnia sleep therapy.

And is this the stage where you say like That's the mental rest stage, the stage, and that's when we feel like fresh. Is that the thing?

Exactly, exactly. Because like the 4 stages— non-REM, again, this is me saying this, okay? Non-REM, 1, 2, and 3, I do like to think of it as like your body resting. And then REM sleep is your mind resting. So like I said in the previous episode, there's 2 sleeps, right? There's your body sleep and your mind sleep. Non-REM 1, 2, and 3 is your body sleep. REM sleep is your mind sleep.

Got it. So why is, you know, REM sleep is often called the most mysterious stage, right? And, and what makes it so vital? So would you, can you go into more detail of why it's so mysterious? And we understand somewhat of importance of it, but in your words, go deeper also why it's so vital.

Absolutely. So, um, I believe it's because we haven't been able to research that area. Uh, no one has been able to really get a person's mind prior to prosomnia, getting a person's mind that deep into REM sleep naturally, or even, you know, with, with some of the other sleep aids out there to be able to really identify what is happening. And then a lot of time we're not really sure what we're looking for, right? It's like, Okay, we're going into REM sleep. That's great, and I had a great dream. But now what? What does that look like on the EEG monitor or the polysomnography? Like, what are we looking at? And so that's why I believe it's also, and it's also very mysterious because this is where our dreams happen. This is where our dreaming and the dreaming that we remember happens, right? This is when our brain is the most active, and that's the really like. They actually call it paradoxical sleep because it's like on the EEG monitor, the brain waves look like you're awake. They look like the exact same, except you're in deep sleep over here and you're awake over here, but the brain waves look the same. Right? So that's another really mysterious thing about it. I love it. I understand what's going on, but now that I'm able to get this information out and kind of explain what's happening, It's absolutely amazing. So yes, it's so mysterious because I think mainly because this is where the vivid dreaming occurs. And even so much as like some dreams are so disturbing that you emotionally respond. And I shouldn't say disturbing. Some of them are good. Like I had really, you know, people remember their like grandmothers and stuff. But, and I think that's a more intriguing thing about REM sleep. Yeah.

This might be a very like a question from somebody like a layman like you, but is this sleep? Does sleep have anything to do with the type of dreams that you get, or that's completely irrelevant? They're not related. You just get dreams and that's the stage you are in. Is that some, somewhere related or not?

That's a very deep question. That's a very, very receptive question that you asked. I do believe that, yes. I do believe, like, I don't, I don't know how else to say it. Yes, I believe that there's different types of sleep associated with different types of dreams. Like, um, I know I have nightmares after I get more than 8 hours of sleep. I understand why that's happening now. Um, and so it kind of reflects back into the science behind prosomnia sleep therapy and the release of adenosine, right? Adenosine has a lot to do With your dream state and where in your brain that dreaming is happening. So yeah, I do believe so. Yes.

Interesting. And so is it also fair to say that, like you were saying, if I sleep too much, then I might actually have a bad sleep at the end because I had a bad dream?

I, I do believe that. I do. I do. I absolutely do. Um, from a, a physiological standpoint, I can explain, um, that I feel like dreams potentially, um, you know, outside of like post-traumatic stress and any mental health issues or sleep disparities, like the average person, I feel potentially tends to have nightmares when they are adenosine depleted, right? Adenosine, there's a balance. Like, it's not like you can all of a sudden just be like, okay, I'm rested. So for somnusleep therapy, what we do is we target that area in your brain to release that adenosine. But it's important to understand that we don't do it. You do it. Your brain does it when it hits balance. When it reaches its balance of adenosine, that's when you wake up. And sometimes we see, especially in the medical field. Um, when people are on propofol infusions for a long period of time, there's different metabolic responses that tend to happen, right? And I do think there may be a potential connection there. Um, again, I'm saying this exclusively as Nyree Penn, personally. Well, it's okay. Uh, however, based on my science and research, this is what I've come to conclude.

Interesting. And, uh, what happens to the brain during deep sleep and is it any different from REM? When you are in REM, the brain is in a different way versus a deep sleep, or is it just same?

I do wanna stress the fact that no one sleep stage is more important than the other. They all, like I said, have their own specific purpose. We just— I can tell where in your brain you're sleep deprived, right? So REM sleep happens in one area of your brain. Non-REM sleep happens in another area of your brain. And for that reason, that's why non-REM sleep is associated with the circadian and the sun, because that's where the chemical responses tend to happen, right? But that deep, deep REM sleep happens way deeper in your— I don't want to name specific parts because the science community is going to jump all over me, but Deep, deep, deep in your brain. That's a different area where REM sleep happens. Yes.

Got it. So it, it is really, it would be a wrong statement to say like, you know, your brain is more rested during this stage. It actually needs both. It's just like the different part of the brain. And we need both of this to work, to feel fully for the brain's wellness or rest or restfulness.

Okay. And that's why I say it's a balance. So during your sleep session, I can tell, I can tell, but you do this all on your own. Your mind and your body decipher where it needs rest. And I allow that person that time to experience that rest in those specific areas. I have no control over that. So I don't know how sleep deprived you are until you have your sleep session. And then I see the data from your EEG results. And I say, oh, okay, your frontal lobe, like, do you think a lot? Like, do you have a job that requires, like, are you a professor or a teacher, like some sort of academic, like, or something that requires a lot of concentration throughout the day, right? I can see that on the EEG monitor. Whereas, oh, I can tell you're not going to REM sleep and you're very, so it's called sleep inertia. When you're so sleep deprived, that's what allows you to, go home and sleep for another 12 hours, right? That's called sleep inertia. So I can see how sleep deprived or REM sleep deprived you are during your prosomnia sleep session. Wow.

So you can literally see and tell pretty much things like if somebody is doing intensive research work or somebody has trauma or somebody had Those things you can identify.

PTSD is another one. Yeah. So PTSD happens in different areas in the brain, and that's how I know it's PTSD. So however, these are conversations we have prior to within the initial consultation. And I ask you, like, you don't have to tell me a story, but have you experienced PTSD? Or have, like, do you have, what kind of profession do you have? Do you stay up late? Are you a shift worker? Do you go to bed early? Do you go to bed late? Like, you know, sleep partners and like, what's your lifestyle? What's your sleep hygiene like? Right? We have those conversations. So when I see it on the monitor, I can be like, oh, this is why. Or, you know, so you don't know exactly what I'm looking at, but when I see it on the monitor and I know that we've had this discussion, then we can go and kind of, you know, personalize your sleep therapy and be like, you know, let's try this or let's do that or let's talk to this person. And so that's the therapy aspect of it. So after your prosomnious sleep session, then I can identify where your sleep disparity is, and then we can apply a model to try to, you know, get that rectified. Wow.

It's, so it's very revealing for anybody who goes through these therapies with you, and you are able to tell And kind of like almost like decipher their sleep and with actual behavior, you connect that thing. So that's kind of mind-blowing to me. Like you can tell so much about this.

And that's what I was saying before in our last podcast, like it can be emotional, right? And this is why, right? When you get into REM sleep, the purpose of REM sleep, emotional regulation, memory consolidation, cognitive function, like all that comes into play and we can't you know, brain detox and recovery. Like, we can't ignore, like, what happens in REM sleep because we haven't been able to get there, so to speak. You know what I mean?

Wow. And, uh, what are the biggest misconceptions that people have about sleep cycles? I mean, there are a few. I, I, I mentioned a few that what I had, like, and what others that you hear the most, like, uh, most Mm-hmm.

Um, one, um, all sleep is the same, right? It's like, uh, you know, if I just lay down for, you know, 8 hours, you know, the sleep inertia I spoke about, right? So sleep inertia is the buildup of adenosine specifically, right? That's that, oh my God, I can't wait to get home so I can just crash. You know, I just wanna go home and crash for the weekend, right? That's that adenosine sleep pressure.

Mm-hmm.

That's sleep inertia. That's not the same as you laying in bed looking at the ceiling, trying to figure out all the sleep games you can play, right? That's not your mind resting. So the fact that the misconception that all sleep is the same, I don't think is very accurate. So there's, like I said, there's non-REM sleep and then there's REM sleep, and each serves its specific purpose. So you can't say it's all the same. So, and anything else that you hear, like, uh, oh, you can catch up sleep. You can't catch up sleep again. You cannot catch up. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. You can catch up sleep if it's the right sleep, right? People often say, if I just go home, you know, like I said, I'll just, I'll catch up on the weekend. I'll work my butt off. Right? Really? What's the likelihood of a just time? Let's just look at from a time perspective. You are not. You have no eight extra eight hours. You couldn't sleep eight hours before. You're not going to turn around and go home and sleep eight hours. I don't care what kind of responsibilities you have, right? So that's number one, just from a time physical aspect of it. And physically, you're going to go home and tell your brain, okay, now is the time we can lay down and go to sleep. Now we can catch up on all that rest that we missed last. Last week, right? That's how that conversation goes. Yeah, that's not what happens. So you but you know I say that to say you can catch up sleep if it's the right type of sleep. Like what are you missing? Like is it REM sleep? Well, you don't need eight hours of REM sleep. Is it deep non-REM sleep? So if you just need two hours of REM or non-REM, you can legitimately do that, right? But you know with a pro-somnia sleep session, that's what we do. We people. Catch up people on their rest.

But how do, how do like someone like me who's at home would even know what I'm missing? Is there a way we can measure it or no?

Well, yes and no. Like, I mean, first of all, we have to quantify it, right? Like, are we doing it hourly? Like, are you, are you 1 hour sleep deprived? Are you 2 hours sleep deprived? Like, no, I don't, I don't think that's possible yet, right? I, I can't figure out a way to do that. Um, are you sleep deprived from the sense of, are you non-REM sleep deprived or REM sleep deprived? Yes, I can, I can help you figure that out. Um, but the, to the capacity, no. What I, I can tell you from our data during the EEG is that I do identify how long you stay in REM sleep as opposed to non-REM sleep. And then I can deduce, yes, you're non-REM sleep deprived or you're REM sleep deprived. So yes, that's possible with a prosomnious sleep session though, you know, so, but we're getting there and you can make up your sleep from the aspect of a prosomnious sleep session. Yes.

Would you recommend any devices for monitoring sleep? And there are now, you know, in watches and stuff that is there. Is any of that useful in getting these kinds of insights, knowing that, or is it just all fluff that we see it? What's your take on that?

Okay, what side of the fence do you want to be on? Who's our sponsors? Can we go to Enlist? No, I'm kidding. No, no, I mean, I think I like— I do. I see the potential. There's a lot more that needs to— I just don't think we're there technology-wise yet. Yes. Okay, fine. The parameters and the algorithm that they use to determine whether or not people are in REM sleep and non-REM sleep, I'm not sure of the validity and accuracy of it, right? Which I think in turn will create unnecessary anxiety about sleeping, right? If you look at this data, okay, now, okay, you're not getting into REM sleep. Now what? What am I supposed to do with this information, right? I'm going to get up and go to work and do everything I did yesterday, just like I did, and put the kids to sleep and cook. What does that mean? Right? So we've got to identify, or at least maybe some of the manufacturers can be like, okay, this is what it means. If you are in non-REM sleep or you're in REM sleep, then this is what it means. But I think the potential is there. I just don't know if we can use the current algorithm to currently assess these different stages of sleep.

Fair. Okay. I guess, I guess I haven't looked devices in that way generally that like I've seen reading and, you know, and I'm like, oh yeah, I got good sleep and that's it. Right. Like how you were saying that I don't know what that means or what, if it is this way, then what to do. And I feel like that's a big gap in the industry also, like no devices company At least I don't feel like I get that education widely. I don't know why, but it's, it's not there. It's crazy in that way. So now I'm kind of appreciating that.

Yeah, we're definitely. So, um, or whatever it's worth, if anybody at Masimo is watching this or seeing this, they have a watch. Um, and I really think we can get some really good data if we could correlate their watch with our EEG monitor during their prosomnious sleep. sessions. Um, I think we could get some really good— we could identify like sleep architecture. We could identify like what is going on when they sleep at home, you know, cuz at the end of the day, you don't sleep the same in a different place that you do in your bed. Right. Which I think has its, has its value also. Um, so again, if they— Masimo just came out with a watch. I would love to correlate their watch with our EEG session. I mean, our, our Persona sleep sessions. Mm-hmm. And let's really see and and see how we can validate that data because I know for a fact or whether it's Massimo or anyone else, like I know for a fact I'm putting people in a REM sleep. Okay, let's take that data from that watch and and let's let's figure out like a real proper valid algorithm to identify these different sleep stages.

Okay, well if anybody is listening. from those devices companies, you know how to reach out to us. We'll put all the details in the show notes as well. Now, talking of naps, I feel like some people treat naps like catch-up sleep and others treat it like, I don't know what's the best word to say it, habit. Like, okay, this is how I take the habit, right? And I sleep every time during this time.

Yeah.

Of the day. So I guess it's a, I don't know, it's a, I'm trying to bust a myth or find out what it is. So is it a catch-up sleep, naps, or is it more of like a, you know, it is like just another sleep that you feel like when the body feels like you just have to take it? What is that?

So it's up to you, right? Like I said, it depends on what type of sleep is it, right? 9 times out of 10, well, for For instance, if you're a person who gets up early in the morning and works out, right, you're physically— you are— you had a hard— you go to CrossFit, whatever. Love CrossFit. Go to CrossFit workout, had a hard— this was Wednesday was beast, right? Okay, fine. During your nap at work, you need to go catch 20, 30 minutes. Totally understandable. That's a physical fatigue. Understandable, right? Don't make that an everyday thing. That's when it becomes a problem. Now it's a habit. Right? Because essentially, when you look at it from our perspective, you're depleting that necessary— you need adenosine at the end of the night. You need that sleep pressure to be able to close your eyes and let your mind rest, right? And then you have the physical buildup. Adenosine doesn't just occur in your brains. It's in your muscles, in your body. You need to be able to release that as well. And during the non-REM 3 deep sleep, Um, remember the growth hormone is released there, you know, that time for repair and rejuvenation. So what type of nap was it that you had, right? If you wake up and feel great, that's fine. Once in a while is fine. But to make it like, this is what I do every day at 12, I don't know. Are we, are you a biphasic person? You know, this is when we get into the physiology of what type of person you are. Are you that person who needs a nap? There's nothing wrong with it. Um, it's just, do you have a problem sleeping at night if you've had a nap during the day?

I feel like, uh, at this point we should all be like kind of tested for our body's type, like what kind of sleep we need as for our body. It's, it doesn't seem like it's one answer for everything here.

Absolutely not. And every organism on earth needs sleep and they specifically need rest as well. So absolutely, that is a legitimate request. Um, you know, what, what kind of, how do you sleep at night? A sleep apnea test. You know, what, what does that look like? Why isn't that standard for every job, new job? You get a drug test, you get a sleep apnea test. Why? Because you're, you're imposing on the healthcare system.

Yeah.

So let's, let's make this preventative. It's not that hard.

But isn't it like, like the benefits are so high by knowing what it is like testing, doing that test beforehand, because it's not only Helping the person, but also going to help company because productivity will be high. You will have far better engagement from the employees. So why is that? Just like, I feel like it's just because there's less awareness in the market. Is that the number one thing?

Who's supposed to take on that challenge, right? Well, until now, right? But now, see, like, who, who, who, who's supposed to do that? Who's supposed to, right? That's just, I'm not saying it's, Because it's such a massive undertaking because of how important it is. Where do we start? You know, in anywhere. And is that the doctor? Is that the corporation? Is that the, the own person, the person, the cousin? Like, who, where do we start? You know, and that's definitely one of my missions. Like, we've got to get people to start being consciously aware about their sleep health. I don't— start anywhere. Do something, right, Michelle? Yeah, do something, right? Start somewhere. Be conscious. Like, I don't care, put the whole family on a sleep schedule. You know, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the kids in the bed and the pets. That's, you know, that's— come on, we can start anywhere. But people have to start consciously being aware that sleep is not something that can be taken for granted.

Yeah. And, um, Now specific to prosomnia sleep therapy. So how does like an under— an understanding of sleep stages helps in, helps you in building these effective treatments there? How does it work on your end? Like what is like, do you have to do anything specific for the treatment types based on that? Like how does it work?

Absolutely. So kind of like what we were talking about before, Once you've had your prosomnia sleep therapy and I can, I can see your data, I can identify, okay, he's more— so, you know, there's a difference between chronic insomnia and sleep deprivation, right? So sleep deprivation is like you just don't have the time to sleep. You're sleep deprived. You can go into REM sleep. It's just you just don't have the time, right? Shift workers. Um, and then the non-REM, the more body is like, why isn't my mind getting into REM sleep? Like, Why can't I just— it's that chronic insomnia. Why can't I stay, stay asleep? Why do I keep on getting up? Like what? That's the chronic insomnia that keeps people awake. But once you've had a personality sleep therapy, I can identify where it's happening, and then we can start identifying a therapy that we can use to kind of facilitate you either staying asleep throughout the night or making sure you get on a consistent schedule to where you can get the right amount of REM sleep. Mm-hmm.

And there is this thing, a lot of time I hear people saying it, you know, taking a bath or taking a shower before sleep and that puts them to sleep. Is this a real thing or is it just like a placebo?

No, it comes down to your personal preference, right? The idea is that the idea when they say taking a bath before, you know, you go to bed is not recommended. The idea behind that is that To prepare yourself to go to sleep, you want to lower your body temperature, right? You want to be cold. You want to be in a cool house, a dark environment, right? You're taking a hot, warm bath right before sleep. That's like counterintuitive. So it's it's that's the idea behind it. But one of my closest friends, she will not dare close her eyes until she takes a bath every night. Like she sleeps just fine, you know. So it just it's just your personal preference. And you know when you get information like that, and this is with sleep or anything else, you really have to identify the source. And, and if there's a motive behind it, there's, I don't know if there's a motive behind telling people not to take a bath, but you know, that's, it's, it's fine. And it's again, just identifying, being conscious of your own personal sleep habits.

So what you were saying is it's more of a thing like where it's a personal preference and it kind of calms me down. So that helps me get the sleep, but it's not necessarily Nothing to do directly with the sleep per se.

Absolutely. And just like, well, they say don't work out. A lot of people have to work out after work for whatever reason. But the idea behind that is that physically you're so high on adrenaline and your heart rate is going high. Again, that's counter to the idea of going to bed and resting. And those people probably take a little bit longer to go to sleep. Because their adrenaline levels have to come down. They have to get into a rested state. So, you know, it definitely takes them a little bit longer. But if that's the only time you can work out, it's not the end of the world. It's not ideal, but that's what it is. But it's workable. But let's figure out, you know, everyone eats— when they come to ProSomni Sleep, everyone gets their own personal sleep plan. Part of that is a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy, but they're minor things. Don't drink coffee after three. Like you know, if you can work out, work out a little bit earlier. Like because on the on the opposite side of that is the argument can be I did work out and I built up all this adenosine, so I should be able to just sleep great throughout the night. You know, so there's there's two sides to that. So but what is your personal preference? What works for you and your lifestyle? And so that's that's what we're here, and and that's also with the book. I I describe, you know, why we don't sleep and the biological secrets behind it. I identify what's happening on a biological perspective in your brain when you can't sleep, how your adrenaline is high, what's going on with women and menopause, why they can't sleep, and the hot flashes hormonally, what's going on, what's going on with men and manopause, you know, testosterone levels like, um, Dr. Rudy Reddy, was it? Um, great, great.

That's him.

Absolutely right. Right. And testosterone affects sleep. So it's, it's those. And so biologically, I explain in the book what's happening. Everybody knows they can't sleep, but now why? Yeah.

And, uh, I've heard this thing, what is called the sleep, sleep architecture. And can you explain what sleep architecture is and why maintaining it is so important for getting the rest or restorative sleep there?

Yeah. So the ideal sleep, kind of think of it as like a blueprint, right, for your sleep, like a frame, an outline, right? How ideally, how ideally do you sleep? And like I said, no sleep is better or worse than the other. You just want to optimize your sleep architecture to make sure that you can get ample amount of non-REM sleep and ample amount of REM sleep. And if you can't, Let's identify why. So sleep architecture is just the natural progression through the different stages of sleep. Light, non-REM, deep non-REM, and then REM in a natural way with the right amount. There's 4 to 7 sleep cycles throughout the night. It's very cyclic. You go in and out, in and out, in and out throughout the stages.

Right.

And you don't have the same— you don't need the same amount of time in each sleep stage. Like I said previously, most amount of your time is spent in non-REM 2. For REM sleep, you only need 90 to 120 minutes. I'm giving you 60, right? So it just depends on what you need. So how can we optimize your sleep architecture? When you come to prosomnia sleep. And that's what we do because we allow your body to actually identify on its own where it's deficient and restore and rejuvenate and reenergize those areas.

So when somebody comes to you and you kind of help them define, or at least based on data you show them, do you also expect them to like change a little bit their sleep habits or Something like that to make changes to that?

Absolutely. So again, based on whatever we identify their sleep disparity to be, we will help, for instance, like shift workers, right? We will definitely try to implement some cognitive behavioral therapy, right, for them. Get on a consistent schedule, even when you're not working. That's very, very important for them to maintain a consistent schedule. Just so your body knows when it can relax. It, it's a habit, right? Just like anything else, you have to establish the habit of healthy sleep.

And can people do anything to get this like a full cycle every time they sleep or, uh, or experience like all stages of sleep during their sleep? Absolutely. Um, is there something they have to do? Is there like any, like, you know, go-to advice that everybody can implement?

Yeah, like I said, I tell everybody all the time, stick to a consistent sleep schedule if you don't do anything else. And I mean down to the dog, you know, everybody needs to go to sleep at the same time. Um, because even light movements, you don't know how that's disrupting everyone in the house. You know, you don't know what kind of day the kids had at school. So everybody needs to go to bed at the same time. Um, you know, mom and dad, okay, fine, but go in the room, keep it quiet, whatever that looks like. Not a whole lot of moving around. I'm really, really— that's the number one thing we tell people: create a sleep-friendly environment, dark and cold. I'm a huge advocate for for that. I'm talking like cold, like seventy, sixty-five at night, where you guys open the windows. So and dark, no TVs, no cell phones, quiet. Of course, the screen time and the the blue lights. So the idea behind the blue light and the blue blocker glasses is that blue light suppresses melatonin. Um, because again, um, scientifically, biologically, we are derivatives of the earth. And when we see blue, we correlate that to daytime, right? So that suppresses melatonin. So melatonin makes us sleepy. It's supposed to be high at night and low in the day. So when you're sitting up there on your screens and you're looking at these blue screens, your mind and your body thinks it's daytime. So your melatonin, so that affects the time that the latency, your sleep latency, the amount of time that you need to, the amount of times you wake up at night, you know, and so that contributes to that. So that's the idea behind the blue blockers. Um, watch what you eat before you go to sleep. Um, when you're up, you know, every hour on the hour because you wanted to, you know, drink, you know, 30 minutes before time. Of course you're going to be up throughout the night. How are you supposed to get into a consistent sleep architecture if you're up, you know, every night? And, you know, let's talk about, you know, prostate issues with men and sleep. You know, they— giving them melatonin and all these other things to help them sleep at night is not helping their bladder. You know, something as simple as stop drinking after 6 PM. Right? Eat a lighter dinner. You know, when your body and your stomach is active throughout the night, that causes— those are different, those are opposing reactions for nighttime sleeping. You know, limit alcohol. That limits the amount of REM sleep you can get. It definitely affects REM sleep. Limit caffeine. So, you know, just everyday things. Stress, especially with the holidays coming. You know, we've got to find ways to Just stop. Stop, relax, turn everything off. I mean, I don't care, 5 minutes, 10 minutes. We got to learn how to just stop and relax. We've got to bring down our cortisol levels. That's another reason why we can't sleep at night, because we're so amped up throughout the day. We get home, we're so amped up, and we're supposed to lay down and go to sleep? No, we've gotta, we gotta relax as a society and whole. We've got to learn to relax. Exercise is great in moderation, you know, whatever that looks like for people. But we got to start getting out and moving more. Take a walk, you know, 5, 10, 15 minutes. I know it's cold, but, you know, I'm sure there's somewhere, you know, take, take the steps. That helps with that adenosine that helps you sleep better at night.

So I always hate it when I'm— I feel like sometimes really thirsty Yeah. Just before bedtime. And I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna drink this whole bottle of water and I'll have a terrible sleep because, because I'll have to get up in the middle of the night and I'll hate that. Yeah.

I'm cautious about that, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, so I guess let's talk about a little bit the future research that's going on. So what excites you? the most about the future of research into sleep or sleep stages and their impact on health? I mean, of course I see you as a front runner. You're obviously trying to change, uh, uh, or at least, uh, create the right perception around it. And we can't be more thankful to you for doing this. But, uh, but what other things that you are like, kind of like this research I'm really excited about, or this trend, this is I'm really excited. Once this happens, it will be a game changer. What the expert has to say, tell us about that.

Yeah, I'm super excited. So yes, we're going to start conducting clinical trials at the beginning of next year, 2025. And I think that will allow us, because like I said, you know, that release of adenosine sleep pressure, that mechanism is called the glymphatic system. And, you know, it just made me realize adenosine isn't exclusive to that system, right? So with some research, I realized that Alzheimer's, you know, the potential for the clearance of tau proteins, um, and PTSD, you know, there's, there's something there. There's a strong link, but between what we're doing and PTSD, mental health, um, but overall, just to identify, um, the connection between sleep, it's like a, like a, I don't want to say Pandora's box because that's always correlated to like something negative. But I mean, sleep has such a powerful impact on our lives, like our overall wellbeing. Like, you know, so just to get people to identify. And I feel like now with ProSomni Sleep, we can get into the REM sleep area. You know, we can do the research and apply all the gadgets and use all the monitors and do all the testing, identify all the things. You know, because I found a targeted approach, a way to really target that lymphatic system and identify and tag all kinds of neurotransmitters that might go through there. So it's really exciting and whatever else, you know, can evolve from that. And, you know, ultimately though, I recognize just a profound impact it can have on helping people in general to just rest. I really, really Um, take for granted, um, the opportunity to just lay down and go to sleep and rest. Um, and to know that I can help so many people who can't. Um, it just— that's really, really what motivates me and fulfills me every day because it's just such a rewarding feeling to know you just helped somebody not just sleep, but help them rest, you know. So, you know, the future of what that looks like, um, I'm, I'm so excited. And, you know, the wearable device data, you know, I do see a lot of potential. Hashtag Massimo. I see a lot of potential, you know, incorporating the watch and our EEG monitor. So, you know, just with our clinical trials, I know that's definitely going to just be the beginning.

Wow. And one last question before we end today's episode. What's the most surprising fact about sleep you have discovered and that left you in like Wow. What is that that you discovered?

I don't know how we seemingly end up ending the podcast on this same topic, but I guess like the spiritual connection, I just did not, I just don't know. Like I personally never gave it any thought. You know, I thought dreams are dreams. You think about things. But when I'm with people and they have prosomnious sleep, sessions and you see the healing, the emotional healing that occurs in that sleep state, um, you know, and that state of just ultimate surrender. Now I'm a bystander, but I can feel it, you know, and it's— there's— it's just spiritual. I don't have the words. It's that something happens to where some people wake up crying. Um, and why are you crying? I don't know. But it's such a beautiful emotion to experience. And, you know, equally as I've been told for them as well. And I think also the idea of like sleep as intuition. There's so many times people have gone to sleep, you know, that have a problem. They go to sleep and they wake up and they suddenly have the solution. I think, I don't know his name, Demétrius Mendeleev, but whoever discovered the periodic table, they said he discovered it during REM sleep. So the intuitive nature of sleep and what that looks like. So yeah, the spiritual connection I think is just really what really probably surprised me the most, but it's great.

There are stories that I've heard in my childhood, which was like, There's this kid who slept and then when he woke up, he just was ready for the exam. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, how's that even possible? Like, really? Like, was he studying in his sleep? Like, how does it even work? So you, you are, you're actually saying that you kind of believe all those things that that's possible in your sleep.

Oh, 1000%. Um, for me personally, and because I've seen it. You would be a believer once you see someone experience a spiritual— I had this one lady, she was almost mad at me for waking her up because she was talking to her grandmother.

Wow.

And, you know, it was just— she was so happy and sad at the same time and vividly, like, not even like— no, I think I was— no. I was talking to my grandmother. This is what we were talking about. This is what she was wearing. This is what she said. 1,000%. So what is, let's explore that, you know? So yeah, yeah. It's just a really powerful thing to see.

Wow. I feel like I learned so much in this episode. It was, there's so many small things, but so many things that I question on everyday life and from naps to like this, and this gives me at least some real answers from the expert, or at least the answer that I can at least start over information or build a foundation of what I need. So this was really helpful. Thank you so much, Nyree. Much appreciated.

Thank you.

And this has been another information-filled episode. I'm sure a lot of people will like it. And just for everyone who's listening, We actually got into Apple charts in a few foreign countries in Paraguay.

Thank you.

So, first episode. And we are getting very good response with our first episode, the content and the insights that you're sharing. And, uh, yeah, come back, listen again. Again, the show website is sleepreimagineshow.com and listen to wherever you listen your show and come back in 2 weeks again and we'll do the next recording. And thanks again. I much appreciate it.

And you can check out our book, Why We Don't Sleep, on Amazon and our website.

All right. We'll put the link also with all our show descriptions on all, uh, wherever you get your podcast from and, uh, get this book. It's really good.

Thank you.