Creative Fincance Live - Christian Osgood Multifamily Straegy

All right, hello, Multifamily Strategy! Welcome back to another episode of Multifamily Strategy Live, coming to you a little bit earlier than scheduled but a little bit after the usual time. Typically we do this at 3 o'clock Pacific, 5 o'clock Central. However, uh, today is starting just a little bit, uh, late, scheduled for 3:30. So I know some people will trickle in over time, that's fine. I'm going to talk a a little bit longer than usual. And then as always, we're gonna answer your questions about real estate, business, creative finance, multifamily, Section 8, low income, you name it, we will cover it. So prepare your questions here. I'll be checking the streams both on Instagram and on YouTube, so we will have both displayed there. So excited to see everyone. Welcome back. It is Wednesday my time. It's going on just about 5:30. 30. Today we're talking about creative finance tips, tricks. The biggest one I wanted to talk about, and there's actually a few that I'm going to cover. So for those, uh, those watching today, I will get to your questions, but we're going to have a little bit more education on this particular one. How does one actually get creative finance? I get this comment all the time. Oh yeah, there's not, there's not seller financing in my area, or people aren't willing to seller finance to me. I keep getting rejected on seller financing, guys. Of my last 20 deals, 17 of them have been seller financed. That is not a coincidence. I've done this in Washington State, in Central Washington. I've done it in Western Washington. I've done it in Seattle. I've done it on border towns in Texas. I've done it in North Central Texas. Location— I mean, you can't get any more different than all those, like tertiary, primary markets, blue states, red states. This works everywhere. What is the difference? I have the difference for you. If you are trying to do this, you're new to multifamily, you're New to this channel, first of all, welcome. It's Multifamily Strategy talking about the, I think, the simplest way to play the real estate game. How are we getting yeses? Here's the trick. You're going to take the word seller, you're going to eliminate it from your vocabulary right now. Throw it out. We are not talking to sellers of real estate, even if they're listing a property, even if they have a property for sale. They're owners. They're someone who owns properties that you don't. They have a background that you don't. They've done some things that you have not. I treat everyone like an owner. I never think of them as a seller. As soon as you put them in the category of seller, you're now transactional. You're talking about a deal, you're talking about the real estate, you're not talking about the relationship. Seller financing, primarily the best terms go to insiders. Now, are there deals listed on the MLS that say seller financing? Yes. And you may notice a lot of them have really, really high down payments, 25%, 50% down. They're usually really short term. 1-year term, 2-year, 3-year, then you're looking for this mythical long-term fixed-rate cash-flowing debt that I talk about all the time on the channel that I built my entire portfolio off of. You're like, why am I not finding it? Because you're not on the inside. If you're looking for transactions, you'll find transactions. If you're looking for seller financing, you can find it, but the terms usually aren't favorable. People lend to people they know, like, and trust. Plus all the great deals, like seriously, all of the great deals trade before they hit the market. If there's a truly fantastic deal, people in real estate know people in real estate. They call their buddies, they call their friends, they call those who met with them already, say, hey, I'm actually looking at selling. You had mentioned you had some interest in trying to expand in this area. Are you interested? The people that they know, like, and trust get preferable terms because if you're lending, you want to lend to people that you think are actually going to pay you back. Fantastic example. I've got to a place in my career where I get to seller finance some of my things. I built a company, property management company, Washington State. I went to sell it. I got $50,000 down to me, and then I seller financed the rest of it on payments where I have interest payments that come in every single month. And then we have partial balloons at the end of every year, another $50,000 every year for the next several years. Until they pay off the entire amount. I just kind of a cool custom amortization on a seller finance note. I would not have offered that if I did not think they would pay. Why did I think they would pay? It's someone who I've already done business with multiple times, uh, actually owns a lending company. So I've actually placed loans with him. We've done business, we've talked strategy. He knows everyone I know, people on the inside. My company, which by the way I sold for a discount because I liked the terms, I like the guy, and I want my portfolio in Washington handled by someone who I know, like, and trust. I wanted to leave it in the hands of someone who was going to do a good job. I gave it to them for a discount. They're doing a great job with the company. I'm getting my payments. I got what I wanted, they got what they wanted. Went off market, no one else got a shot at it. I called them, they said, hey, let me round up a couple buddies, I'll put together the capital. He brought in a couple of capital partners and boom, property management offloaded. We are so happy with the way that transaction went, and my employees were all taken care of. I am very, very, very happy with how that went down. People will trade to insiders. You'll get more deal flow, you'll get better deal flow. If you're not getting a yes to seller financing, 99.99% sure that is the difference maker. You're not on the inside yet. Focus on the relationship, not the deal. The deals will come if you do this, and they'll be better deals, and a lot of them will be the off-market deals that you are probably seeking. So if you're looking for the secret to creative finance, congratulations, you just got it. That is the thing that you need to do. Other tips and tricks— I found this to be really interesting. So if you have a deal that cash flow is really low day one, you can get positive cash flow, but it's low cash flow. Your goal is to own real estate and you're wondering, okay, without a lot of cash flow, how am I going to come up with the money down? How am I going to service that extra debt on a low cash flow deal with a lot of upside where you're going to get the rents up, you're going to improve the property, It's going to be worth more in the future. If you have a lot of upside in the value of the property, that is where you can bring in an equity partner with a buyout clause. Simply a clause. There's an option clause that says I have an option to buy you out at a fixed price at a fixed point in time. So you do your analysis for day 1, say you're buying them out at year 5. I'm going to do my analysis day 1, end of year 1 as I've started my project, and end of year 5 when I'm buying them out for my option. I'm going to do my analysis and say, okay, conservatively, the deal is going to be worth X. I can get a new loan, a bank refinance for Y. Out of that money, I can afford to pay them whatever the return is. You can buy real estate in a way if you're starting with no money like I did, where it's like, yeah, the deal might not pay you a ton day one because you're servicing the deal, you're improving the asset, the cash flow is going back into the building. I get it. But you're going to put it on a timer where the real estate is going to buy the real estate. And there's going to be a point where your real estate out of a refinance buys out the partners like the BRRRR method. You pull the capital back out, you give them a return, you send them on their way, or maybe they fund your next deal. You never know. Often people like to use, you know, recycle the money with you. But for that specific deal, you buy them out, the real estate buys them out. Now you own a piece of real estate and not a dollar left your hand. Your investor got a fantastic return. That is a great simple way. That is for low cash flow day one, but high potential on the property. Now, another great way to do this, if you have a high cash flow property day one, say it doesn't have the same equity multiple, but you're like, hey, I'm buying an income stream today. I won on price. I love the deal. If the deal can afford debt, the simplest way to buy real estate is without a partner. If you can own the real estate and you have a path to do that, don't look in this indication. Don't bring in equity partners to make yourself feel better or more comfortable. If you can lock in the debt product that you want, you're able to qualify for the loan or get seller financing so you don't even have to bother with qualifying. That's what I do all the time. You go ahead and put together the opportunity, you get it funded with a second position note. So you seller finance first and then you go, you know, private money second, or you do a bank finance first and a seller finance second. However you do it, if you do deal debt debt instead of deal debt equity. No other partners, no other people. Your deal cash flows— as long as it can service the debt day one, high cash flow, I want to take it out with debt. Low cash flow, I'm going to take it out with an equity partner with a future buyout clause. You're basically treating the equity partner like a deferred debt payment where you're going to let it pay on accrual. It's functionally that, but you're not further encumbering the property, which is another time that you would use that equity partner. If you cannot use second position debt because the first says you cannot further encumber this property, go ahead and do the same thing with a buyout clause. Maybe you share cash flow with them in lieu of the large equity multiple in the future. When you, you know, say they buy in for $100,000, you buy them out for $150,000 later. Maybe they buy in for $100,000, you pay them off the same $100,000 in 5 years, but they're making a 12% return throughout the deal. You can structure equity very similarly to debt as long as you utilize the option clause, which is just your right to buy out the property. Those are a couple of my favorite hacks. I'm gonna talk about one more and then we'll open it up to all the questions as they come in. If you're watching, feel free to ask them in the comments on Instagram or on YouTube. This is live and not pre-recorded, so you are talking to Christian and I will answer your questions as they come in. By the way, All Nighter, thank you for the comment on the studio. I've had a lot of fun building this. We are ready to rock in the new house. Baby boy is due this week. All of the dreams have come true through real estate. Retired the wife, we're in the house, uh, she's about to have my first son, and we have the studio of my dreams. I have a few more things to put on the shelves, but, uh, yeah, it's coming together. I appreciate that. Last trick I'm gonna, I'm gonna put out here: if your deal doesn't cash flow day one, it is breaking the rules. Don't buy the darn deal. I have broken the rule before. I've regretted it every single time. That is how people would go bankrupt if you keep buying negative deals, even if there's all this upside. You lower your income in the process. Not worth it. There's too many opportunities out there where you can buy it, it pays you to hold it. The economy goes down, a big, you know, problems arise, that's okay. I have long-term cash flowing fixed rate debt. I'm getting paid to wait. That is how you want to structure every single deal. If you have one where you're like, I could raise rents, like it's way under market rent, I need, let's say, 6 months to raise rent, we can do what we call the Hommel hack. My very close friend, Caleb Hommel, one of my original mentees, bought 28 units within his first year of joining Multifamily Strategies. 3 transactions, a 10, 10, and an 8. Amazing, amazing journey. One of those deals, negative cash flow day 1, the way that was written. And I was like, dude, you can't do that, especially because he had $300 when he got started. He's like, nope, that's okay, I got a plan. The Hommel hack. Payments don't start for 6 months. They don't accrue, they just don't start. Now, if you were to buy like a property from a bank, there's usually a 1-month grace period before you have to, you know, the payments actually kick in. He had the genius idea of saying, hey, I need a little bit of time to get income up, and there's 1 unit that I need to renovate. For me to start the project as a brand new investor with like really no money in reserve, he also should have raised more reserve, but he's looking at it and saying, hey, with, with not a lot of money in reserve, I need to save up those rents. Renovate that unit. Then I need time to lease that unit and get rents up just a little bit, halfway to where I want to get them. And that deal's going to actually cash flow really strong. He pitched it to the investor and they're like, or they're sorry, the seller. And the seller said, hey, why would I want to do that? Why would that make sense to me? I'm going to sell to you and I'm going to wait 6 months to get paid. And he's like, well, no, I'm actually paying you the down payment up front. You're actually getting a huge sum of cash from me. I think he did that one 10 or 15% down. He's like, you know, you're getting six figures up front from me, non-refundable. It is a down payment on a property. Then you're going to wait six months, the payment's going to kick in. And I got back to him and said, actually, that makes a lot of sense. I get my price, I get my terms, I get the down payment. I just have to wait six months for the payments to kick in. That's not a huge concession. It's really not. Cale was able to structure a deal where even though with the interest rate and the day one income, it wouldn't have cash flow day one. He's like, you know where it does cash flow? If I have no mortgage payments whatsoever. And once I fix this problem that I think I need 3 months to fix, I gave myself 6 months to fix it. Genius strategy. If you guys are trying to figure out, okay, how do I make a deal work? How do I propose seller financing? The easiest way to do this, the easiest way on special clauses, on getting creative, is identify where the goalposts are. What does the seller need? What do I need? I need long-term cash flowing fixed rate debt, no exceptions. What is the simplest way to put it in a contract where that would work? And if both lawyers can agree on it, ta-da, you have a creative clause. Uh, you were farther in real estate than you were. All right, let's see. Uh, I'm hopping over to Instagram. If you guys have any questions, go ahead and dump them in the chat. Again, I started 30 minutes late, so I know we're going to have a lighter showing today. That is totally all right. We may end up with a shorter episode, but hopefully I've already shared some things with you that are somewhat interesting and you can apply to your investing journey. Uh, let's see, on Instagram we have a mighty zero questions in the chat, so that is fine for all five of you there. If you guys have one, uh, go ahead and ask a question. All Nighter does have a comment here saying kids are worth every penny and headache. Um, I am excited for that part of the adventure. For me, this is, this is a tip for everyone too. I had those 3 goals: retire wife, build dream house. Now, I've said it a million times on this channel. If you're new, uh, welcome. I retired myself through real estate in 3 years. I love talking about exactly how you can replicate it because it was a lot simpler than I thought it would be. Uh, there's nothing special about me. I didn't find any magical market. I've done this, you know, blue states, red states. Simple model, repeatable, easy to scale. Um, you know, ask any questions on any time. I wanted to retire the wife, be able to support my family, and do so without spending every single hour working like my father did. I grew up on a family single income. Dad provided for us. It was awesome, appreciated it, but I didn't get as much time with him as I would have liked growing up. I was like, what if I could provide like my father did but also have time to spend with my family? Well, I get to do that now because I followed these steps. A little bit of sacrifice for the last 3 years, and by a little bit I mean like a lot, but in a relatively short period of time we got there. So I'm excited for getting to do that. Uh, ah, my good friend Heiner has a question here. How to deal with objections when they say they aren't interested after you tell them, um, they aren't interested in buying? Okay, so I, I believe— correct me if I'm wrong— I believe this is in relation to, uh, you're asking for a meeting, you're asking that you're doing the owner meeting. I think it's the most powerful thing in real estate. That owner meeting. I mentioned this early in the— I think it's the first thing I went over— becoming an insider. When you're an outsider, how do you move to the inside? Well, you meet with the players. People will sell or finance to those that they know, like, and trust. If you get a rejection, that is fine. There's a few things that might have gone wrong. Either one, they're sincerely not available, they're sincerely not interested. That's usually not the case though. Most people in real estate do understand that networking is part of the game, and a lot of people A lot of people, including myself, will meet with people who are like, hey, I'm trying to get— I'm trying to get a hang of things. Like, players who've been playing for a while often come down and help those who are a little bit further behind. It is not that hard to find a helping hand or someone who is interested in helping you take the first few steps to real estate, helping you source your first deal, getting you introduced into the market. So if you're getting a lot of nos to your meetings, you may be over-talking. Where you're oversharing your goals. You're over— it should be a very simple call. Hey, it's Christian. Have a couple rentals in the area. If that is true, do not lie on this call. Have a couple rentals in the area. I just passed your 30-unit building. I don't have a 30-unit building. I— early in my career, this would have been true. I haven't bought anything that big yet. One duplex at a time is not cutting it for me. I'm trying to retire my wife. She got injured at school. She's a teacher. One duplex at a time, absolutely impossible. A common response that I was getting when I was making those first calls: Ah, you've learned this early. Congratulations. It took me 5 duplexes before I realized that was too slow and I needed to buy larger. Then all you do is— you— sorry. Oh, live calls, man. Stifling a sneeze. Once you get that momentum with them, you open up their story a little bit. They're like, oh yeah, I took 5 duplexes, then I realized, hey, I bought a 15 and it made as much as those 5 duplexes. Like, one transaction did as well as my last 5. Started buying bigger. I scaled. It's like, that is amazing. Tell you what, I'm going to be in town on Wednesday. Do you live anywhere near that property? It'd be an absolute privilege to take you out to coffee. I'd love to spend 30 minutes with you. Well, why do we have to meet in person? I'm happy to talk here on— common objection. I like getting to know the owners in the town. I am already an owner here. I want to meet the other players. But also, you've done something I haven't. It means the world to me if I can actually have that conversation, learn from what you've already done. It is really easy to overcome, but you need to overcome confidently. When you get an objection, you get a no, Don't just take the no and go, oh, okay, well, that's, that's fine. I have a good day. Push through confidently. It's like, totally get it. I don't know you, you don't know me. That's fine. I value meeting people face to face so much. I'm really set on hitting my goal of retiring my wife. You've done what I want to do. I don't think I can do it without actually knowing people in this market. Mean a lot to me if you can spare 15 minutes. Push through it a little bit. Without hearing the exact call, it's hard to diagnose exactly what's off. Uh, in Multifamily Strategy, which Tyler's part of, we do practice calls on this every once in a while. I think we're gonna do that not this week but next week. Uh, if you want to, uh, come prep with that, let's do some objection handling on that call and we can actually diagnose what's, uh, if anything feels a little bit off with the conversation. We'll roleplay that one. From Zach, how do you check in and keep, uh, life in the relationships with owners as you permeate a market? That's a great question. So because it's owner relationships and it is an actual relationship, I actually don't keep track of like a master list of owners. So I don't have— like, I have it on my phone. I immediately save their phone number because I'm someone who will forget to do that. So first thing I do, I get off the call, save them in my phone. Good. I know who they are. I have found that if you have a relationship, you really hit it off, just like when you're making friends, you hang out with people who you like being around. If I have a question for an owner, it's a completely organic relationship. It is actually a friendship that starts to develop. So there are some owners who I just don't continue to follow up with because we just didn't hit it off. There's not that momentum. Uh, maybe I just got a simple takeaway from them, and a year later I text them when I apply it and I go, Hey, you gave me this advice a year ago and it made all the difference. There's actually a guy in Seattle I'm calling tonight named Zach Lazo. He has a big brokerage. He's one of the principals of this huge brokerage. When I was leaving being a broker, I actually went to him and said, hey, should I let my license expire? I was thinking about maybe coming over to your company. And his advice changed my life. He just said, why would you do that? You already know how to buy real estate. Why would you go Why would you sell real estate for others unless that's really what you want to do? It sounds like you're having a lot of success buying. Focus all your energy on that. And so I did. That worked out really well. I didn't have anything to call him about for about 2 years. Looking back, actually about 3 years. Looking back, I was just thinking about this. I'm like, that is an owner who I would actually really like to call and say, hey, you told me to do this 3 years ago and this is where it led. I am so grateful for that one piece of advice. He has no idea he changed my life with one coffee meeting. I know he'll remember who I am, but that's about it. Like, we're not that close. I have other investors. Let's say there's a guy named Gary in Moses Lake. I've met with Gary a ton of times. He has helped me set up my strategy, different contracts. He has been an early mentor for us. When I met him, he had about 100 units. He had stuff he was interested in selling, things he was interested in buying. He's doing development. I've looked at a lot of deals of his. I bought some, I've passed on others. That's a real relationship. I don't have to think or try to schedule how do I keep these alive. When I have a question for them, I ask them. If I don't have anything for them, I don't waste their time. But I do want to know who they all are. So get the initial coffee meeting and then just be conscious of where am I in real estate, who has the pieces that I need to move forward, and then reach out to them and ask good questions and form that relationship. Spend time, and when you can, Give back everything you possibly can to them. I think online way over-pushes this, but they talk about add value, add value, add value. When you're newer in real estate or you haven't bought your first deal, I'm sorry, you don't have that much value to offer a Gary or a Zach. There's so many big owners, it's like, it's not about giving value, it's about being enjoyable to be around. Sometimes them providing value to you is reward enough. Just be, just ask good questions. When you have something to offer, always offer it. And share the journey with them. When you have a success, thank those who helped you get there. It's going to move you forward astronomically, but also, it makes it a fun team collaborative sport. It's a sincere relationship. That's the best I can answer that question. All Nighter has a question. Does OpenCorporates provide owner info for LPs? So on a syndication, typically it does not. It usually lists the governor. So that's an LP structure. Now, in— now I do JVs, so I've never done a syndication where you have GPs and LPs. In my deals, you have all partners, and so you have general partners and you have Managing partners, managing partners may be responsible for a little bit more than general partners, but we're all active members of an LLC. There are no LPs in any deal that I've ever done. Uh, so if you're looking for any of my LLCs, you're going to find all the members there on OpenCorporates unless they filed under an LLC, which, you know, it takes a little bit more digging. Sometimes it's an LLC owned by LLCs owned by LLCs buried in Wyoming, uh, attached to a family trust. You can't always use OpenCorporates to get to the bottom. But limited partners usually would not show up. Usually the general partners are the one who file the primary partnership. I don't usually see them listed as governors of the LLC or the ones who file, so they usually don't show up on there. That's a good question though. Hopping over to the Instagrams really quick. Oh, we do have a couple of questions over there. That is excellent news. Okay. From David: How often are your deals structured over 30 years? Don't people often want their cash out upfront or within the first 5 years? Most of my notes— not all, but most of my notes— are a 10-year note on a 30-year AMM, or they're interest only. Now, 30-year AMM is the amortization, so you're making payments as if it's a fully amortized 30-year note, except at year 10, whatever the remaining balance is You have to either pay it off, sell the property, or refinance. Sell, refinance, pay it off. It balloons there. The debt is due, so I either have to pay it off with new debt, existing cash, or I sell the property and they're made whole out of the sale of the property. That's pretty common. Uh, the better your relationship, typically the longer the terms. Um, my good friend Cody has 30-year fully amortized seller finance debt on one deal. Very rare. Does happen. I do have a significant amount of 15-year debt. I have some 7-year debt. I have one 4-year note on a 2-year project. It's a bridge product essentially, uh, for a project that should take 1 to 2 years to complete. We're almost done at the end of year 1, but we gave ourselves a 4-year window to find our permanent debt product. So seller financed over 4 years so that we can improve the property, do our renovations, get the rent up, and move on with the project. For them to be— have a 30-year AM, very common. For them to be structured on a 30-year note, very rare. Typically I consider long-term debt 10 years or more. That's why I have so many 10 and 15-year notes. Uh, Katie, do you guys borrow that 10 to 15% down from an investor for the deal, or upfront money down? You said, uh, he had $300,000 in his pocket. So, oh, did your guy— I apologize, that was, uh, that was dyslexia there. Did your guy— so this is my buddy Caleb with the Hummel Hack— did he borrow the 10 to 15% down from an investor for that deal? He, he borrowed from two investors. He structured them, um, how did he do the structure? It was a blend of debt and equity, uh, or— well, I'm searching my mind. I will, I will remember it. He gave them a preferred return. I believe it was 8%, it may have been 12%. So once— it was the same time that the payments kick in. So he had a 6-month grace period where all of the money in the project was just being reinvested in the project. So he had no mortgage due to the seller, he had no payments due to his investors, he had 6 months of just unmitigated rents come in, money gets dumped back into the property, property gets improved. Really cool structure. I call that the Homel Hack. With the investors, I believe his 8% may have been up to 12%. The first 8 to 12% return on the cash in the deal went to the investors. The remaining capital went to the partners and Caleb in proportion, direct proportion, to their equity in the deal. So they all owned a certain percent of the deal. So they would start with the first, let's call it 8%, I don't know the actual number, but the first 8% went to them. So they got an 8% return on their money. And then say they did, you know, an extra— say the deal was cash flowing 15%, all of them got a few extra points added to their 8%, so they're cash flowing closer to 10-12% on their money. That's the structure that he did. He has an option to buy them out at the end of year 7, I believe it was, for a 1.25 multiple. So they bought in for— and again, I don't have all the details of the deal, this was a deal he did a few years ago. But let's say it was a million-dollar deal. I believe it was $900,000. For easy math, let's call it a million. It's a million. They put in $150,000. He might buy them out for something around $200,000 at the end of the project. He has an option to do so. So he has the right to. They can't say, no, I don't want to sell anymore. They've pre-negotiated the price in which they'd be bought out. He's improved the properties, increased the worth. He probably could refinance and buy them out today, but right now He just has a few partners riding the deal with him. From Josh, which— with a lot of O's, a lot of S's, lots of H's. Uh, I know you just look at Google Maps to find buildings. What other data sources do you recommend? If you can do it for free on Google, I do it free on Google. I actually use my Tesla map, which is powered by Google Maps, and when I'm driving markets, I actually look at the roofs of buildings just like I used to do from my computer when I was first starting in these markets. I'll look around on the Tesla map, and as I'm driving, like, wait a second, a couple streets over, this looks like an interesting building. I don't know this person. It's really helped me map. Now, if you don't have a Tesla or you want to do something that's maybe more expedient than going through Google Maps, the best paid option I have found— and this comes from a CoStar rep, is not using CoStar, too expensive— Reonomy. I think it's just reonomy.com. Uh, fantastic owner information. So in that one, if I find an owner, I can click on a building, research it, find the owner, click on the owner, see what else they own in their portfolio. No data source is perfectly accurate, but what I found is that it's usually pretty accurate on most of what they own. It actually records a lot of their debt products, so I can know how much debt and equity they have in their portfolio with a reasonable certainty. And it has the best contact information that I have seen in any piece of software thus far.. I recommend that. It's not that expensive. It is definitely not free, several hundred dollars a month. But if you're going to use a paid platform, that one seems to be the preferred one. Easy to use, user-friendly, great owner information. If the goal is to find deals, I'm a big fan of REonomy. David says, the way that I explained the answer to this question earlier was much more sense than some other people explain it. Well, I'm glad. Sometimes I ramble, so I'm glad that I did not do that too badly there. All right, hopping back over to, uh, hopping back over to the YouTube side. Uh, looks like I have a question over here, another one from Zach. Zach, thanks for contributing today, man. I really appreciate it. Uh, thanks. What does your system look like for initially estimating repairs on value-add projects? Well, my system I mentioned earlier on this, uh, I I retired my wife through real estate, and that's been a huge blessing. I'm, I'm honestly, I am very glad that this went roughly to plan. There's been, of course, all sorts of chaos in starting a business, and then rentals, you have, you deal with people, and there's a lot that goes on. But I'm really grateful for it. My wife has managed most of our contractors. She is now a freak of nature looking at projects, saying, okay, it's probably going to cost about this, and she is right on almost all the time. I've also gone through enough projects where I can look at it and I know per square foot what flooring is going to cost us to put in the next stall. I've done enough plumbing, I've done enough roofing where I look at a building really quick and say, hey, that's going to be $5,000, $8,000, $10,000, $20,000 to get that unit rent-ready, turned, and really presentable for someone to really be proud to live in that unit. And that's the standard that we go to. It's not just, is it good enough? Does it look nice? Even in our low-income housing, it's, if I was in the same financial situation as my tenant, if I was making the same money they are, with that rent for this space, would I be proud of the space that I live in? And so that's our renovation standard. A lot of it's from experience. When you're brand new, it does vary from market to market. And one of the highest newbie taxes is you don't have the same connections. Your costs are typically higher. The larger investors— I mean, even me with just a couple hundred units, I get better pricing than other people because I do have more business for them. I'm a— even just the little teeny brand I've built here on, on YouTube. There's enough people in my market who have network worth, who knows who I am, where I do get better price breaks. When you're starting, the best way to do it is find, I would say, 2 to 3 contractors in the area that are recommended by the other owners. That's how you can just kind of skip the line. Get a recommendation for a few contractors, get them quoted. You're going to get a hang of it really quickly. You do a few renovations, you're gonna be like, okay, I know what to expect every time in my market. All Nighter has a recommendation here for Onyx Hunt. Provides owner name and property lines but only costs $40 a year for one state and $100 for all 50. If anyone has ever used Onyx Hunt, which I've never heard of before this— very basic info provided, very basic for my strategy where you just want to go meet the owner. That's what we need: owner name, property lines. Okay, if anyone knows this, post this in the chat— Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, I don't care, wherever you're watching this, post it there. Um, if you have ever used this, does it include phone numbers? I'm guessing for that price it doesn't. You're gonna have to find some skip tracing software. Uh, but if anyone knows the answer to that, let me know because I'm actually very curious. I'm very curious. That would be interesting to find out. Josh asked, any recommended PMs in Houston? DM Caleb.Hommel. I own a 10-plex in Houston. I own it with him. It's a project that I actually brought more capital to. It was one of his early, early deals, one of those ones I mentioned earlier. It's like, I probably should have raised more for the renovation on that one. I brought some more capital into that deal. We're now partnered on it. The property manager that we use down there, he's really liked. I would shoot him a DM. That's Caleb.Hommel. Within 2 years probably next year, I'm going to recommend Apex Asset Management because that is my company and I'll be opening up in Houston. Okay, Josh has used Onixx. Good info, no skip tracing. That's what I figured for that price because skip tracing is really the expensive part. If you found a skip tracing software that you really liked, you could run your own skip tracing for $40 a month to find the owners. That's pretty good. You also can use the Google method that I talk about online all the time. Uh, if you're trying to mass dial people, it's not gonna work. It's gonna take you forever. Uh, it's very much a sniper approach as opposed to a shotgun approach. I'm going after specific buildings. I wanna call maybe 10 people in a week. I wanna do 1 to 2 coffee meetings in a week. I'm not that social. Uh, but if I meet with 52 to 100 people throughout the course of a year, talk about my goals, learn how they built their business, I've learned a ton. I'm connected to everyone. I have deal flow. It's the simplest model I've ever seen in my life, and turns out that's basically how people used to do real estate before we had all the technology. Uh, so if you want an inexpensive way to do it and all you want to do is just do the Googling their phone number, um, I like this. I like this recommendation a lot. We call this, uh, Onyx Hunt. Never heard of it, going to look it up, but it's, uh, All Nighter has it right here. Quite literally a hunting app. This is very interesting. Very interesting. So if you can get owner name properties for very little money, that's the least expensive way to do it with the least bells and whistles. So cheapest way is Google Maps. That's how I do it. Every map's there, every property's there for free. If you wanna skip to what is their name, you don't wanna do the whole Open Corporate step, apparently, cost you $40 a year if you're only investing in one state. That might actually be worth it. Okay, fine, I'm gonna buy this next week. We're gonna open up Onyx Hunt and I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna do a review on it. We're gonna see how good it is. Um, this is interesting to me. For $40 a year, that's basically free. If you ever buy one piece of real estate in your life based on what you found on there, you have made your money back. That's, uh, I think it sounds like a good investment. Then all you need to do is take that person's name, plug it into Google with the, uh, either the property address or the city. But say person's name, the word phone number and city, and see if you can't find who that person is. It— Google is amazing at skip tracing. It's phenomenal. I've called Jordan Belfort from it. That's how I got on the Brad Lee podcast. That's how I found the producer for BiggerPockets and got on the last 3 episodes that I did with them. All of those were done through Googling the person's name and the city that I know they live in. Zach, for traditional financing, do you use a mortgage broker or a small bank loan officer? Yes, I have a, I have a couple mortgage brokers I like to use. Unfortunately, the one in, uh, I use in Washington actually moved there from Texas, so he has a lot of connections in Texas and Washington State. As an investor who invests in Washington and Texas, that's really, really helpful. I have a mortgage broker I rely on really heavily., but the guy who gets it done for me in Stephenville, Texas, name's Lance. He's from a local credit union and a really small local credit union. Their charter says they have X amount they need to deploy into multifamily into that county. I'm the most active buyer in that county. Lucky me. I get basically just auto-approved on a good deal. So I, I submit my underwriting to them. Even if it doesn't hit their DSCR standards, they'll, they'll be a little bit flexible. They'll, they'll do it on pro forma, but they'll do 80% LTV. They may be half a point more expensive than market debt. That's not too bad on a great deal. I've used them for 2 now. Looks like we're gonna do it on 3, on a $3 million 72-unit, uh, just one town north. Good guy to have, uh, you gotta have on your team. So I like to have some local guys, very local to the property, and we're talking like a regional— I like credit unions the best typically, but regional bank, regional credit union, invaluable. But having a mortgage broker who can find other debt products, help you with bridge debt, make connections for you, uh, that has been probably 80% of the bank debt that I have received has been through a mortgage broker, and they're worth their weight in gold. Oh nice, just sweet. Oh yeah, yeah, with the hunting app. Okay, onX Hunt, onX Hunt. I might just do a live stream just for fun of just exploring it with everyone. That could be fun. I might do that next week because there's like a bonus second live, just hop on Onyx Hunt and be like, what is this and is it worth it? I'll do a review, we'll see what we think. We'll see what we think. It sounds— for $40 or $40 a year, it's basically free. It means really close to free. And if it cuts out step 1 of my entire process, you might be on to something. Does it have a map, or do I have to plug in a property number? That's the one other thing I want to know. All Nighter, if you can let me know, is it a— is it a map where I can click on the parcel? If so, I think I want to do it. If I have to do all the searching on Google Maps already, I don't really know what it cuts out other than like plugging them into OpenCorporates. Let me know if there's a map to click on. I'm gonna buy this thing. If not, I'll still buy it and review it, but I'm excited. I'm excited to take a look. Cruising through. Okay, it doesn't look like I have many more questions here, so I always like to do a last call for questions. For those who joined late, we're talking about the tips and tricks to creative finance. Uh, what have we talked about so far today, especially on the beginning of the call? If you have a low cash flow deal, low cash flow day one, high upside, you're looking for an equity partner with a buyout option. You can basically customize your payment for them, maybe pay them a multiple of what they bought in at in the future, pay them out of the upside. The rule is the real estate has to buy the real estate. However, people are variables. If you have a high cash flow deal day one, even as less upside, use debt. I mean, take it out with that. If you buy it 100% financed, Seller first, seller second, seller first, private money second, bank first, seller second, bank first, private money. I mean, there's so many different combinations you can do with these. If you can take second position debt, always own it. If the real estate can buy the real estate, if you cash flow beyond all the debt cost, just buy it with debt. Save yourself the headache of partners. If you can't further encumber the property or, or you don't have that day one cash flow to support additional debt equity partner buyout option. Genius ways to get the real estate, to buy the real estate, no money out of your pocket, excellent returns for your investors. It's been a structure that we've used many times. That's one of my favorite tricks. We also talked about the Hommel hack. My buddy Caleb had a low cash flow deal, needed time to get the rents up, negotiated 6 months of no payment. It's not accruing, it's not— it just gave him a down payment, closed the deal, 6 months. That is the, uh, some of the magic of creative finance. If you identify what they need and what gets the deal done. You just protect your principles of long-term cash flowing, fixed rate debt. Cash flows day one, that's what you have to defend. Okay, cool. You know where the goalposts are now. Figure out what works. That was a genius solution. There's a lot of other ways to use special clauses just like that, but find the problem, fix it while still hitting everything they want and everything that you want. If you can do that, congratulations, you own a piece of real estate. Good. Got a couple more questions in on Instagram and a couple more on YouTube. That's why I always do this. Um, okay, All Nighter says yes, you can click on the parcel, property lines are all shown. Good, good, good, good, good, good. Okay, on next hunt, we're gonna go into this. Uh, Heiner, deal cap and loan factor rate has nothing to do with the interest you're paying on the deal, right? Uh, loan factor rate has everything to do with the interest that you're paying on the deal. Um, the deal cap rate has nothing to do with your debt. Cap rate is all a factor of net operating income. Uh, your loan factor rate is your principal plus your interest annualized divided by the amount borrowed. You compare your cost of capital, which is all based on interest rate, your cost of capital to the yield of every dollar invested, which is another word for cap rate. If you bought the deal in cash. So the cash in the deal yields the cap rate. That's what a cap rate is. Your borrowed capital, the cost of capital, is a loan factor rate. If you have a positive spread— for those who don't know what these mean, it's hard to find online. Oh, I've posted some videos on YouTube about this, uh, loan factor rate. Look it up on this channel because no one talks about this. It is— it only matters if you get to negotiate your own debt. So no one who doesn't do creative finance would ever look at this metric, but it's magic. If you have a lower cost of capital, so your loan factor rate is lower than your cap rate, you will make money on every dollar borrowed. So the more debt you take, the more cash flow you will have. Uh, it's a super easy formula, but that will be completely dependent on interest rate. Uh, your cap rate will have nothing to do with interest rate. Zach, how'd your wife adjust to leaving, uh, leaving sales and going full-time into investing? Well, she left, uh, she left, uh, or to me leaving sales, it was, it was a weird time. So I left a job where I was making about $250,000 a year, and I had spent it, all the money we saved up on our 2 duplexes in our house. So I mean, I, I had like no savings, uh, I bought this 38-plex, immediately left my job, and I was like, okay, well, I haven't finished that project yet. So we had a tiny bit of cash flow, we were living on her teacher's salary. Um, she handled it amazingly. We went into that together and we looked at where we were at in life, and I said, here is my goal. And we set our goals together. I was like, here's what I want life to look like. And she agreed with it. She's like, that is exactly what I want. We chose where we want to live. We came up with the number of cash flow that we needed per month to sustain our lifestyle. And so when I left, I said, hey, I want to go after this full-time. I want to go all in on this. Are you willing to do this adventure with me? And she's like, you know what, If we did, like, worst case scenario, worst case scenario, we— it totally doesn't work, we can't pay our mortgage, we lose our house, like the worst thing that possibly could happen. She's like, here's what I know. We've already bought a house. We'd bought a condo, we moved to a house. She's like, I already know that we can buy a house if we lost everything. I know we can rebuild what we built because we've already done it. So let's go for our goals and hit them. And if we don't, that's okay too. We'll just rebuild. And I was like, awesome. Uh, we have always been on the same page. My wife is freaking awesome. Um, I, I'm so grateful that I had that going in because she just said, hey, I, I trust you, and if this investor goes well, I got you, and if the investor goes poorly, I still got you. By the way, if you meet someone like that, marry them immediately. Um, absolutely fantastic. But she handled it really well. Have there been stressful times? Absolutely. Absolutely. I— we overextended ourselves a little bit on projects where I had these great deals, but they were taking so much capital. I was like, I do not know how we're going to sustain the renovations. We didn't raise enough capital up front, a common problem with newer investors. When I got started, I was just like, how are we going to meet these bills? I ended up having to flip one of my properties. I wanted to hold everything. I was put in a position where I'm like, okay, I have to sell one. To get through my other projects. We made a lot of money doing it, but I made the decision never again. I'm not going to do projects that eat up all of my cash flow. There's no exceptions. Every deal cash flows long-term fixed-rate debt. We're just not breaking that rule. I'm not doing projects where I don't raise all of the renovation upfront before we close the deal. I am not injecting new capital into deals again and again and again. But we've had times where it's like there's a sincere cash crunch and we have a lot of holdings, How do we defend the, the newly formed empire? It gets stressful. If you have a spouse who can support through that, best thing in my life. All night, you're giving us a tough sell on this, and I like it. I like it. Owner name, coordinates, tax address, county, and acreage. It's simple. That's why I like this product, and it costs them freaking nothing. I mean, their cost to provide that data, that's simple. They probably just have a whole bunch of feeds and they're monetizing like $40 a year. They have a super simple thing that basically is free, and they're like, oh, we're packaging really nicely for you, $40 a year. That's a good deal. This is something— there's actually a good point. A lot of the crazy rich are like this, cycling. You can lose everything, but you get the skills and you can, you can rebuild. It's so easy. It's so easy to rebuild something that you've built, and it's so hard to build it the first time. Uh, a great example, small example, but my property management company It was so hard to learn the software and the hiring and the firing and the staffing and the maintenance and the accounting. It was so hard to build that in Washington. When I came to Texas, we're going to be over 100 units under management, and by probably by the end of this month, definitely by the end of next, we'll be over 250 under management. By the end of the year, Cale is pushing us to get to 500. I think that might be stretching, but we'll see. We'll see. It was not hard to put together the new website, AppFolio, the employees, because we'd already built a brand. It's so easy to rebuild. It's so easy to rebuild. It's so hard to acquire the skills. You might hear this a million times online, and I can't possibly explain how real it is. But yeah, no, I absolutely agree. You build it once, you have the skills, you can build it again. I, I'm never worried about the real estate or the business, even, even though we do our best to make good decisions. We have businesses that are thriving. PM's doing well. My sales and marketing company is absolutely killing it, which is really fun to see that young company take off. Multifamily strategy has grown immensely this year, which has been the biggest, most exciting part of the whole adventure, is getting to share this with other people and getting the word out there on what I think is the most transparent, simple way to play the game. I have nothing crazy to sell you. Uh, but boy, have we seen people accelerate their buying with creative finance and not make some of the stupid mistakes that I made. It's fun to build this community in a way that I think is just the least salesy, least ridiculous, simplest way to buy real estate. It's been fun to see that take off. It's been fun to see PM companies, you know, grow, sell one, grow another one. Um, but you know what, if it all collapsed and it all went away, it's okay. We would build back. I built my dream house. Thankfully, we're doing financially really well. If I lost it all, it's just a house. It's okay. And you know what I know I can do? I know how to build companies to the point where they sustain the income to build another house. From Photography Field Trip, I'm finding deals in Ohio, 50-80 units, but having Uh, blockers finding capital are— so my question would be, are you under contract for these deals? If you have a great deal and you believe in the deal and it's under contract, you're in due diligence, you've already figured out what the financing is going to be, the capital piece is really easy. But if you just have a deal and you're trying to pitch for capital for a deal that's not locked down, very rarely will people want to contribute capital to that. It is much harder to raise capital for a deal that is not yours yet. Oh, so that's my first question. If they're under contract, um, I am more than happy to give you ideas on how to raise that capital. Well, thank you, All Nighter. Um, yes, uh, you know why the things I say align with the people who have hundreds of millions and billions? Because I meet with the people of hundreds of millions of billions because they're ahead of me. Some of them I pay to meet. A lot of them will just meet for coffee if you call them. But yeah, I've learned this by watching other people build the business. And we have so many examples, guys. We have the— what is available on the internet now was just not around in the last generation. You could watch— I mean, I know he gets a lot of hate on these channels, but like you can watch a Dave Ramsey who did over-lever in short-term debt, who lost all the stuff, and he goes, hey, I just hate debt now. Now I disagree with him on a lot. I also love a lot of his financial principles. I love a lot of what he's built. I just disagree on his core thing with the no debt, his main brand. Don't like the rest of what he says. I mean, this guy drops bombs on how to be financially savvy, but we have examples like that, people who have lost everything and then built back better. I would say that guy is doing pretty good. Last time I heard him drop a number for his net worth, which was years ago, like $700 million. I don't know if he's a billionaire or not. He's probably getting close to that if he's not there right now. Fantastic example. They're online everywhere. You can lose it all, just do your best not to. And that's, that's how we've structured all of our deals. So we're talking if you're not under contract yet, but it is a great deal where you're like, okay, we got cash flow day one, we got upside on the deal, my first step is always put it under contract and then I go after raising the capital. And I totally know that's the scariest way to do it because you're like, wait a second, the money's not there yet, how do I know it's going to work? It's easy to raise capital for a great deal that you have locked down. If you don't have the deal locked down, you are going to have difficulty finding capital because what happens is in the time that you're finding capital, someone else sees that same great deal, they pick it up, you lose the deal. On to the next. Uh, first step, make the deal yours. Second step, let's go put together the money. Deal, then debt, then equity. Away we go. Zach, uh, can you always list your Section 8 units at fair market rent no matter the size of the unit? Yes, they only care about bedroom size. Now you can actually get exceptions if you have a particularly large unit. You can go to housing authority and say, hey, this one is a little bit unique, I think this deserves more than fair market rent because of X and Y. And they actually can do exceptions from time to time, uh, if you have a, you know, just completely different floor plan than what one would expect for the type of unit. But generally speaking FMR is going to be by bed count, not by square footage. So the square footage actually is a non-factor. Uh, so no, they never assess them and deem them overpriced. FMR is FMR, done by bed count and bath count. Where you'll run into problems is if you are charging the same as someone else. Say you have a 400-square-foot unit and someone else has a 900-square-foot unit. Tenants could choose where they want to apply. You're not going to compete with the 900-unit even if housing authority is footing the bill. If you're a tenant, you can live in 900 square feet or 400 square feet. They're always choosing 9 unless they have like no shower and, you know, failed plumbing. If you have a nice unit, you have to be able to compete in your market. So depends on how many Section 8 vouchers there are, how much housing need there is, what type of units you have, because you do actually have to lease them. It's not guaranteed leasing, it's guaranteed rent. You got to get them placed. You may still have to come under fair market rent if your building is under fair market size, but that's a, that's an open market, which is how I believe real estate should be, um, and all business should be. I believe in an open competitive market. And Matt, uh, Matt Lumberjack Landlord talks about Section 8 a lot. And it's— you can, you can increase it just based on logic. And I've done this before. I've actually got other— Matt, uh, by the way, uh, Matt Lumberjack Landlord is the one who told me to do this. He's a great friend, a fantastic friend and mentor. What he recommended, and I've used this, is some counties do not have a housing authority. It's rare, but it happens. I've actually been able to get adjacent counties who have an overflow of vouchers or they have higher priced vouchers and they can't place them all, to place in adjacent counties. I got that, that trick from Matt. So I've actually got above FMR in my county because I took adjacent counties that had a need that have a higher price and had them place their tenants into my adjacent county in Texas, which has been extremely helpful. So there's different ways to play the game. It is negotiable. Don't underwrite based on getting exceptions though. And if you know you have a unit that is not competitive to other units, don't expect that you're going to hit fair market price every time unless there's a huge need for housing in your area, in which case every unit's just going to get filled. Never bank on just magic leasing though. If you have an inferior building, don't expect to get a higher price. Okay, Instagram, I've neglected you for a second. I will roll through some of these questions. This is from David again. David, I hope you're still here. Um, I have a geo-farming tool which runs algorithms on people who could be likely to sell in the next 6 months, picking up data points like death in the family, empty nesters, kids off to college. I found a lot of these target people who are likely to be— I mean, it's targeting people who are likely to sell or likely to be distressed sellers, or like, a lot of people have these lists. And so if you look at a lot of the online gurus, this is the method that I I personally like it the least. There's nothing wrong with it, uh, and I used to teach people how to do this with the CoStar data too, how to like— whose debt's about to expire where they're gonna have to sell or refinance, or who bought, you know, at the wrong time. You know, you do the sales comps, all these people picked up right now right before 2008, property's finally worth more than it was. Yeah, like the lists that are like, hey, these are likely sellers, everyone else is calling them. There's a lot of mentorships that recommend this, you know, basic software that gives them potentially lists, and everyone's marketing the same people. I would strongly recommend— I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just saying I strongly recommend prioritizing the owner meeting with people who have mastered the game. The people who are unlikely to sell are the people who've given me the biggest opportunities, the largest transactions, the biggest pieces of advice. I would prioritize that above all things. And then you can, you can, you can spice it up with some other algorithms and try other things. And some people are volume people. Some people don't mind making 100 calls a day. I'm just not one of those people. I will always pick up the phone if there's a phone number. I, I, I just actually saw— I don't watch a lot of social media, but I saw an Instagram reel on this, uh, some lady just being like, oh yeah, no, I— in my method, I, I just don't— I don't like cold calls, so I don't do them. That's stupid. If you have a number in front of you for a building you're interested in, you call that number. You put in the work. You do not let leads die. That being said, I've never liked going aggressively after a high-volume business. We went for a high-quality business. Um, if you have something where you're like, I think this would work, try it. Call those numbers, make those dials, get a deal done. Uh, but just put a priority On that, I think what I do is something that everyone can do, is that like 10 calls a week, 10 quality calls a week. Maybe only 3 of them will answer, 1 of them will meet with you. That's pretty standard for me. But just get that 1 owner meeting every week. Prioritize that above all the other strategies. I, I believe you will go farther faster. Uh, from Leroy: I need help underwriting, uh, sub-2 and taking over an existing mortgage, or do you have someone on your team and JV the deal? So if you want underwriting help, I have a Facebook page you can join. It's called Multifamily Strategy. Um, you can go ahead and check that out. It literally is a Facebook group called Multifamily Strategy. Uh, I think that subtext is like find, fund, negotiate deals. Uh, you guys are all invited to that community. Post your deal there, people will help you underwrite it. There's a ton of people are going to get eyes on it, um, very active group. So hop over there if you're not already there. Facebook group is, um, a lot of deals get posted there. I never ever ever recommend doing sub-to unless it's a very specific situation where there is no due-on-sale clause. I— if you're in the process of building financial freedom So if you're not there, if you're not already super rich— and I'm not saying you are or aren't, I don't know— but if you can't afford to buy the place in cash if the note gets called, I don't want to build financial freedom on callable notes. Now I have a subject to on the Robinhood purchase, a $4.5 million purchase. There was a $72,000 subject to note on one of the properties. There was a house that was at one point acquired into the Robinhood. It was an adjacent property. On that house, there's $72,000 subject to, and we have a clause in our contract that specifically states that if the note were to be called, the seller has to— the original seller has to pay off the note and then seller finance the remainder to us. So we have a clause that addresses what happens in the event that there is a called note, but it is a $72,000 portion of a $4.5 million transaction. That is more acceptable. That makes some business sense. I think that's the correct use of that clause. Using subject-to to acquire beat-up houses or to acquire from distressed sellers, it's a model I highly recommend against. And this isn't me being anti-competitive because I know there's a creative finance guy out there who loves subject-to. He talks about it a lot. I think everyone here probably knows who I'm talking about. Great operator too. Amazing creative finance guy. Super smart. But that particular strategy I do think is dangerous. And that is not me just being anti-competitive. I actually just, I can see a huge flaw with building financial freedom on callable notes, especially in a time where we've seen some banks go under recently. There's more scrutiny and there's more technology to be able to track these. I could on any deal use CoStar's data and I've trained banks to do this. I can go through and co-star, and I can tell you exactly who's doing some shit too. It's super easy. I'm gonna go, yeah, this traded hands, it's in your portfolio. Banks could call these at any time if they had pressure, and I can see an economic circumstance where banks would want to pull in more capital and have less of those 3-4% notes floating out there. So do so at your own risk. We're happy to help you underwrite it, post the, post the deal in the in the Facebook page. I always want to caveat that with the warning: it is a creative finance strategy that should be in your arsenal and should almost never be used except for certain niche cases. It is a good real estate clause. It is not a real estate acquisition strategy. And that is it for the questions. And we are at an hour exactly, which is awesome. I was shooting for an hour. We hit an hour. I am a happy camper, guys. Thank you for attending today's live. Uh, if you guys want to know more, you can always check out multifamilystrategy.com. I just had someone redesign the site for me, by the way. And yes, I know there's a couple typos on it, but I am curious on your feedback. So if you like it, let me know. Uh, if you've considered joining a community or you want to get plugged in, multifamilystrategy.com, you're totally invited. There's no pressure. Join the group, don't join the group, doesn't matter to me. But I do want to share creative finance best practices management from before you find the deal to under contract to the deal to how do you own it after the deal, full cycle. I want people in this community. We're at 2,000 strong, which is just so fun to see that start to take off this year. We're going to grow massively, but I would love to see you there. If you just want to get plugged in, like, follow, subscribe to the YouTube channel because that is massively appreciated. You have no idea how much that means to me watching this thing grow. And getting the word out to people for free, because the information's free. Check it out. Thank you for joining. I'll see you guys at 5 o'clock Central next Wednesday.