Section 8 Creative Masterclass Live

All righty, all righty, all righty. Here we go for another episode of Multifamily Strategy Live. Today's a little bit of a precursor. We're just about to, for the first time ever, run a free webinar on exactly how we've made millions of dollars. And I seriously mean like we've made millions of dollars using the Section 8 strategy. This has been a hybrid of other people's strategies, of my own strategy, using a lot of creative finance. How do you accumulate the units? What is the simple, like stupidly simple math for how you make money on this? And what do you have to do if you are using government subsidized programs? You can buy these deals where they cash flow. So I'm going to talk about two things today. One, I'm going to go off one more time this week, just one more time on all of the influencers right now. I don't know why it's the last two weeks been so popular to say cash flow is a myth. I think there's a lot of people's portfolios aren't cash flowing. And a lot of the people that you see online are just influencers. They're not really doing the thing. So here we are, operators, and we're going to tell you exactly how to play the game. Uh, very excited for today's episode, and it's going to be a preview onto the, uh, onto the webinar that is free. If you go watch on YouTube or anywhere but Instagram, you should see a link to register for free. I'm going to do a whole hour master class on this. Gonna give about 10 minutes here. I'm gonna give you the thing, then we're gonna open it for questions. Uh, today, because I'm prepping for that, it's only gonna be a 35-minute live, maybe only 30 minutes. So if you're here, stay tuned. Do me a favor, like if you haven't yet, subscribe to the channel, because here we go. By the way, enabling the comments here, so if you guys have any questions, start to ask them as we go. Oh, by the way, Monty, thank you for, uh, for digging the new studio. I am also fairly stoked about this. Um, I have more audio and mic stuff to set up, but I'm more of a real estate guy than a tech guy, so it's taking me a little bit longer. So I'm glad you're enjoying it. It will get better, as will my audio, which is running off of a tiny little mic on top of my camera there. So what is Section 8? Section 8 and other subsidized programs— it is government subsidized rent. Essentially, the government will say, hey, we place a voucher for someone who qualifies as low income. We will pay part of or all of their rent. Usually there's a small amount the tenant owes based on what their income is, but it allows lower-income tenants, who sometimes are fantastic people and need a little hand, to afford rent at market rate. They calculate it with something called FMR, which is fair market rent. Now, fair market rent is interesting. This is the only place in real estate I'm aware of where you have a legit crystal ball. Now, if you don't know my backstory, I bought hundreds of rentals using creative finance. And before that, I added a step. I worked at the CoStar Group, who owns Apartments.com, LoopNet, Homes.com. Uh, they own like Lands.com is actually where I started. They basically own the internet for commercial real estate. Like, if it's not residential, they own it. And now with Homes.com, they're competing with Zillow. Like, they own the real estate data. Insanely large company. I worked for them for a long time. I've sold data to just about every housing authority in the state of Washington. So I know a little something about something here. Fair market rent is calculated based off of data over the prior 2 years, which means if we look at what the market did over the last 2 years, like where is it at today? Well, where it is today is where FMR is going to be influenced 2 years from now, which is fantastic news. That means we actually very, very, very predictably do know what market rent's going to be. We can plan in advance, and we're using— with, like, they're not fixed variables, there's some variability, but we're using much more stable variables to do our math. So the strategy I've come up with— everywhere in America needs more low-income housing. That is a problem that we've had in this country for a very, very, very long time. Massive need for more low-income housing. So we have a market that basically never dies and we're solving a legitimate problem in communities. Now, what I have found is that there are properties and often they're misrun. So they have some deferred maintenance and their rent is astronomically under market rent. So let's say, real example, we bought 25 units. Think about 8 people there were on housing. So they were actually already on Section 8 programs. And they're paying $450 per month. When we called the housing authority, they said, oh yeah, no, fair market rent is $845. So as you know, they were paying $550. It was $845, $295 under market rent. And the building, we bought it right where it cash flowed. So we bought it, it wasn't huge cash flow day one, but it was cash flowing several thousand dollars the day we bought it. The next month we called the housing authority and we said, hey, these are all month-to-month leases. They're supposed to be annual leases with you. Yeah, they're like, it is. I said, is there any reason that we would not raise rent to market rent? Like, no, we've actually talked to the old owner about this. They didn't seem to get it. We pay the delta. The tenant's payment is fixed. It doesn't matter. Within one month we took all of those rents. Up $295. One move, exactly like that. Just, boop, next month, sign the paper, tenant sign a paper, annual lease, rents up. Now if you do that over 8 units, let's do some quick math here. This is where, this is where it gets really crazy. Okay, so we have 8 units times $295. So we've created per month $2,360 of new revenue. It's powerful, guys. Now we're going to take that, annualize it by 12. So we've added $28,320 per year because you don't have new expenses when you raise rent. Expenses don't magically go up. It's the same tenants, same placement, same utilities, same taxes, same insurance, but we've increased value. That means the NOI has gone up. Now, how do you determine value of a commercial building? Well, you take the price divided by the cap rate. So if you create new— or so you're sorry, you take the NOI, the net operating income, total net income minus operating expenses, divided by the market cap rate. We've just added to that NOI. So how much value did we add to this building? Now, we did buy it a little bit under market rate, so there's some built-in equity. But how much new equity did we create? Well, we take $28,320 and we divide by— point in that market, it's really about a point— I'm going to call it a 7 cap market. It might be a little bit lower. Valuations are becoming on a 6.5, but let's be conservative. $405,000 divided by 0.07. In one month, we've increased the value of the building— focus there, camera— there we go, $404,000 made on one purchase in one month using Section 8. Not only did we raise the rents, our tenants didn't pay a dime more. We kept the same tenants, the same occupancy. We made the new revenue. We We have more cash flow that we can operate the property with every single month. We have a better annual return, and the property is worth more, which looks good on the balance sheet and increases our net worth. Now, I've done this in Moses Lake. I've done this in Ephrata, Washington. I've done this in— in the process right now doing this on an RV park in Mason County over in Hoodsport, Washington. Uh, we've done this in Stephenville, Texas. We're currently doing this in Houston, Texas. We've done this in McAllen, Texas. But I'm saying this works everywhere. This works in markets all over the country, and you're using fixed variables. So What is the actual strategy? Use creative finance or conventional finance. I've done it on conventional too. Find a deal that cash flows day one that is underperforming. Use the metric of what market rent is right now to increase your rents. You can create crazy wealth doing this. Now there's a book that you can pick up. This is the last thing I'm going to share, and then I'm going to get to your other questions here. Nan McKay, I found this downloadable for $20. My housing authority gave this to me. This is the owner's handbook. This is the guide to Housing Choice Voucher programs and owners and for owners and property managers. Again, like $20 to download. I like the physical copy. My housing authority gave me one for free. Many housing authorities will actually carry these, so you may be able to get it for free. You may have to pay $20 for it. This is a very inexpensive book. In the inside cover, I write down what fair market rent is, FMR. So when I started in 2023, studios— this is for, uh, this is for Moses Lake specifically— studios, $785. One beds, $860. Two beds, $1,075. At the time, we are renting closer to $750 for two beds. By the way, we got on government programs and rents went up. And this is in a six-cap market. Rents went up $300. 6 cap, every time you raise rent $100, 100 times 12 divided by 0.06, that's the new value you create, $20,000. But when you take a bunch of units up, $300 a month, $60,000 per unit. As this is why unit count matters. Unit count is not the only thing, but if you find an underperforming property, this is why you need more units. This is why people can't retire on the fourplex. These influencers online, they're driving me nuts. They're saying cash flow isn't real. They're not buying deals correctly. If they cash flow day one and you increase the income, they'll continue to cash flow. My guess is a lot of these people do not put a proper reserve in place. And yes, you can raise your reserve, but you have to factor that into your math. I think a lot of people, especially the ones who went off over the last, say, 4 years, uh, which to be fair is where I built most of my portfolio, I think a lot of these people did not focus on the reserves. They let the market carry them, and as capital expenditures came up, they found, wait, all my cash flow is going to repair my building. Buildings. If you are an operator, that is not normal. You need to be able to buy a deal that cash flows with ample reserves. So the reserves go towards the fixes, you allocate some of the cash flow to refill the reserve, but you continue to flow the property. Cash flow is important, and it is not a myth. You can retire off it. I, if I so chose, which I definitely don't want to because I love all my active projects, I could just stop and my projects could carry me. I got paid for a building that we already pulled $1 million out of— $1.2 million. I just sold my share of it today. I used this strategy. I got another— after pulling $600,000 for myself, I just pulled another $350,000 out of it today. That's more than a lot of people make in a year. That's what I did this morning using this strategy, like legitimately. I posted the, the transfer on Instagram. You can see it exactly, $350,000 $1 million. Anyone can do this. My properties cash flow. And when you need lump sums of cash, yes, if you increase value, you can get big lump sums. But build a business where you don't have to sell the assets. That was one where I think it's run its course. I really like the project that the other party wanted to do with it. And quite honestly, I'm buying a lot here in Texas, freeing up capital to buy more cash-flowing units like the 44 we're closing right now. Fantastic move. Much rather do that. All right. So I write these in this book. Sorry for getting sidetracked. Two beds were at the time $1,000. What was it? $1,075. Next year they go up to $1,108. One beds were $860. They go up to $881. Here's the big jump, though. I have a boatload of studios and I mean a ton. Of studios. I have a 30-unit building that's almost all studios, and I have a 38-unit building that is almost all studios. A lot of studios there. Studios went from $785 to $876. So the next year, after I've already had the government pay increased rent of $300, all of my studios went up, uh, what is that, $91? I almost got another $100 guaranteed government back checks. This comes in on one check every month for all of those tenants. In addition, I list all the units online for everyone at these prices, which means I still get market rate tenants. It's not all Section 8. I have a blend of government and Section 8 tenants and other housing programs that we all qualify for using the strategy. And guys, I, I showed you one building where we made $404,000 in one month using the strategy. Realize I have hundreds of rentals, and a lot of them we increase rent by that much— $300, $400 jumps. And this isn't just bleeding the market dry. This is government money that is set aside for programs that are looking desperately to place people. Section 8 gets a bad rap. I have seen no difference at all in my portfolio from a— when you're talking entry-level housing, from a market rate person for an inexpensive place or a Section 8 person. It's about the same class of tenant, but you get all these government guarantees and you actually do have some grant money to increase the value of the units by doing some renovations. You actually can get some, some actual money towards the units. If your tenants have to get evicted, they help you out with the cost. This is a fantastic way to mitigate expenses and to add predictability to your portfolio. And again, we've made a few million dollars doing this strategy. I'm going to make a lot more doing the same thing. You can too. This book is the magic. It has the renovation, all the stuff in it. And I just every year update my notes. Who are my contacts? How often can we do rent increases? What's FMR? It lives in the COVID And here's my guidebook. $20, I'm going to say, just paid for itself. Okay. Hopping off that, you guys all know the, know the game now. Let me plug in my laptop before it loses all of its battery, because that would be an awkward ending to this meeting. And we shall press on to all of your questions. Okay. With charging enabled, we should be doing much better now. Okay. From Vicks Life, does your market also give out, um, payment standard and moderate rehab. There are some programs that we can do for rehab. They're different from like the direct Section 8 program, but there are government things through housing authority where they'll actually connect us with some grants. So yes, there are some standards. Now, a lot of it just making a unit habitable, no. But if there's some renovation needed where there's some concession of like, hey, we are going to be renovating this unit to X standard, uh, to make it to housing standard, they'll sometimes give us a little bit of extra money towards that. Uh, so it's going to be market dependent, but that's something that, like, for me, um, there is some payout or funds available, uh, for the improvement of assets to qualify them for the Section 8 program. How do you screen tenants for Section 8? This is an excellent, excellent question. Same exact way I screen everyone. If your credit score is shot, I'm sorry, you are not going to qualify. Now I require a credit score of, uh, 600 for my portfolio. If they're close and they're Section 8, say they're 580, we'll go ahead and chew them on in because they're Section 8. We have other guarantees around. It's a little bit safer. But you do not have— you can do the exact same screening you do for anyone else. And this is a common misconception: you don't have to rent to everyone who has a voucher. They have to qualify like anyone else. You want to have the same quality of tenants, don't change your standards. Done. From Oscar, how much is it for attorney services on a deal? Contracts for owner finance deal, I know it varies. I've spent $10,000 on one, I spent $500 on the last one that I did. It will be between that range. Typically I would budget for about $1,000 to $1,500, depends on how complicated you're getting. And also I have a lawyer charge me a little bit less now because we do so much business with them and they have templates for, you know, they basically just pull the last transaction I did, change the names, and do the document for us, add a special clause here and there. Uh, where do you get the money for attorney and accountant? Uh, like any deal, you need to raise reserves. Every LLC pays its own taxes, so that is in the budget for purchasing the property. So effectively, yes, we are using OPM to pay for attorneys. But also you have a lot of LLCs where like you, you are cash flowing these. So as they cash flow, you are actually banking the money. So really the property pays for it, but I also have raised a reserve, which is often comprised of OPM unless I have a bunch of money. Because right now I'm sitting on a ton of cash. I don't need to raise money. I can own more now. Um, so my raises will depend on, you know, how much equity I want to have. If I put more money in, I typically get more money. That's, that's more or less how it works, or at least you get more equity. Uh, Section 8 paid for eviction and trash units. Yes, they do, which I did not know. And unfortunately, we had spent $5,000 per eviction for like 20 people before we learned this. So, um, they don't pay for all of it, but, uh, there's several thousand dollars that they will cover. Uh, we missed out on tens of thousands of dollars, by paying market price for it. And that was a bit of a bummer, but it is what it is. It's okay. Similar to World Population Review, are there any websites to gauge the diversity of industries in the market? Uh, not that I have found specifically, unless you want to pay a bunch of money for them, like something like CoStar that I used to sell. Oh my goodness. CoStar's demographic data, just absolutely phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal, but it's really expensive. I had it for my first year of investing. Found I didn't use it enough. I dropped it. What security deposit do you ask for in Section 8? I usually ask for, um, one month's rent. Most typically, that is the same deposit I'd ask for anyone else. Guys, Section 8 doesn't add a lot of risk, and people think it does. If you're doing entry-level housing where it's going to be priced at around the Section 8 FMR. If that's what you're calling your rent, that means you're typically renting a more basic unit. If you have basic housing, that is nice. Tenants still get to choose, by the way. The housing authority can't just say like, oh, you're living here. Uh, you have to actually make a unit where someone wants to live, and they can use their voucher to move in there. So they do the application, their voucher program kicks in, there's going to be an inspection of the unit. We got I have found, and I've done this again, multiple states, multiple counties, multiple cities. I, I've done this a lot. And remember, I own 2 management companies. I sold one recently, but I've owned 2 property management companies. We manage a ton of these. I have seen almost no variance whatsoever in Section 8 tenants that we have screened versus any other tenant at any time. Do you have cash in bank accounts holding less than, um, a $250K or, uh, T-bills for both? Um, so for how I hold cash, so, so you, if you don't know, you're federally backed and insured for up to a quarter million. I often have more than a quarter million in my account. That does happen when you make billions of dollars in real estate. Um, I certainly didn't start there, but like today I got paid more than that. Temporarily, that amount is going to be sitting in my account, in one of my accounts. One of the first things that I do is I get it all invested. I don't personally really ever hold over $250,000 for a long period of time. If I have that, it goes towards one, paying off private debts, because notice I do use debt. If I have extra cash, I can eliminate a partner, which increases my cash flow. I like cash flow better than I like cash. So usually when I have cash, I trade it for cash flow. So I will today and probably the remainder of the week maybe retain a lot over $250,000, significantly over $250,000. However, by Friday this week, so in over the next 2 days, I will be paying off a note for $63,000. I'll be spending another $30,000 to buy up a partner's equity share of a building, increasing my equity of an already cash-flowing asset. And I'll be buying out another partner on another project, um, increasing my equity. Let's see, they own a third and I'm picking up half of their third, so I'll be moving from 33% to 50% of another asset that is doing really well. Um, so I manage the FDIC, the $250K thing, by not holding over $250K in my personal account at any time. Any of my LLCs, when they get to a quarter million dollars, we go out, we buy another property, and that LLC expands. Everything feeds real estate, and it keeps growing and growing and growing. And once I have a cash-flowing building, I am so happy to keep buying up the equity of that. If partners want to be cashed out, or I have debts somewhere, pay them down, pay them off. There is no reason to be leveraged to the hilt. Are you still doing owner calls? Yes, I did one today. Usually I do about 2 a day, 10 a week is my goal. But, you know, I just moved to Texas. I've been doing a lot of building the house and setting up the studio, which is not quite done, but it's getting close. Notice the shelves are empty and my fancy mic is— should be right here and it is not because I don't know why this bad boy is not integrating with my computer correctly. So we'll figure that out. And now he wants to fall over. There we go. Well, neither— that is correct. Yeah, there's lots of ways around that, but like, I don't worry about it. I didn't worry about it until recently because I never had a quarter million in my accounts until recently. That's how I manage it now though. Every LLC has its own bank account. And none of those ever get over a quarter million, uh, for more than a day. And then when, when they are getting close to that, that's usually around the time we go, like, I know I got a few hundred thousand dollars here, uh, 10% down, which is a lot of my deals. I can buy $2 million of real estate in Texas. That's like a 25-unit building. It's not bad. I'd rather have a 25-unit building than $200,000 in cash. But yeah, especially with our economy being as weird as it is and artificial as it is, I wouldn't trust banks with my money. That's why I own everything in real estate. And then, you know, any excess liquidity I have— personal preference— I have it stored physically hidden. Not at my house, by the way, don't rob me, uh, but at a place other than my house, stored in like physical metals. Like I have like gold and silver, uh, for any excess, because that is mine and it's, it's hidden and it's physical, and I like that better than giving it to the banks. What times and days are mentorship calls held? Monday, Tuesdays, and Thursdays. Uh, Mondays and Tuesdays are at— thinking— uh, 6 PM Central Time. I'm switching to Central Time in my head. Um, uh, so 6 PM Central Time Monday and Tuesday. Thursdays are at noon Central Time. Every call is recorded. I know not everyone can make every time, so we try to stack it so the most people can make it. And then Thursday is the structured lesson. So while that's in some people's workdays, uh, it is recorded and it is a specific lesson from me. You can always text me and ask questions as well. Everyone in the mentorship has my phone number. And so, you know, we can converse back and forth on any questions that you have and bring up more questions on Monday, which is completely dedicated towards Q&A. My favorite day of the week in that it would be impossible to plan for it if I wanted to, because I don't know what you're going to ask. You guys are on the call. I answer the questions. We converse. Everyone learns a lot from each other. I love Mondays. Are lives still being held every Wednesday? Yes, just like this Wednesday. Even better. Later this Wednesday, so today in about an hour and a half, I'm going to be running, uh, the Section 8 Masterclass. I'm going to go in like super deep detail to everything I talked about earlier here, including how I use creative finance to do this. So I really want to break down the math and show you guys like actual like images, examples, strategy. How would one utilize this strategy in any market? Who do you need to reach out to? Who needs to be on the team to do this? What are the renovation standards? I'm running that. I've been doing a few webinars. I ran a series of On the Creative Finance, and we had about— I think we had about 500 or 600 people attend, which was phenomenal, uh, through a few, you know, a few Wednesday series. I'm not running webinars more than every other week though. So yes, lives every single week, same time. We're back on schedule because I now have a house and a studio, and we're set up again. Of course, All Nighter. And as we all know, the live doesn't count if, uh, All Nighter isn't here. So All Nighter, thank you for being, uh, being in attendance. Otherwise this one would be a total scrap. We'd have to start all over again. Looks like, uh, can this really work in any market? Uh, Miami? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, all— and yes, guess what had— we guess which markets have a huge need for low-income housing? Uh, New York, Miami, San Francisco. These are all places that like Section 8 absolutely can't work. You have to find the right buildings. The, the problem with especially, uh, New York and San Fran— California, New York— rent control makes it difficult to fix problems in a property. Now the nice thing with Section 8 is that you can still work with the local government. And so it's a, you know, if their FMR is X, you can usually raise to X. You can get an exception, and it's almost guaranteed you're going to get it if you're using their Section 8 programs. You're using a government program, they're going to actually work with you because it's, you know, that's what they're there for. So typically you will get the exception. However, rent control makes it really hard because you're typically buying something that's significantly under market rent, and you're taking the gamble that you're going to get your exception. A market like Miami, uh, there's just a huge need for it. And yes, if you find a property that is underperforming that is a good candidate, that works where your numbers work just fine, if you can get up to fair market value, you make a lot of money. Well, then there you go. Shoot for the FMR, find a property that's rented out less than that, buy it on good numbers where it cash flows day one, and then use the government funds, what you pay your taxes into, to juice your profits Increase your value, away you go. Thank you, All Nighter. Yes, hit the like button. As, as my good friend Dion says, every time you hit the like button, an angel gets his wings. And there are sellers in every single market. This is so true. Um, there are so many owners that I have found, especially, especially in the, in the previous generation, where they've held rentals for a long time, they've been cash flowing for a long time, they haven't needed to increase market rent that much. You can come in and be a better manager than a lot of these prior owners. Like, it comes in waves, and right now there's a lot of people who hold a lot of real estate in their 70s and 80s. They just are. A lot of them have lower debt. A lot of them have lower rents right now because they have had no reason, no need at all to raise them. In the last couple years, we've seen massive market changes, which means rent has gone up pretty significantly in a lot of areas. If you wanted to do the strategy, like, it's a great time to do it, and it will work in any market. Manuel, how did you pick the town that you decided to build your Texas house in? Ah, um, I moved— I went on a road trip down to Texas just to explore Texas. I, I had wanted to move out of Washington for a long time, but we didn't know where. And so we went on this road trip, and we landed in Dallas, and we drove to Houston, then we drove to Austin, then we drove back up to Dallas. So we did the whole massive triangle. And every time we were in the, you know, it's basically central, like north central DFW, a little bit on the Fort Worth side. When I started touring those areas, uh, the cities are beautiful. A lot of the buildings are newer built, clean streets, no homeless, which is wild if you're from Seattle, by the way. Um, beautiful weather, nice people, the best food I've ever had. I love food in Texas. There are some great barbecue places. As I'm going around, I'm like, I love the food, I love the weather, I love the people, I like the church, I like the— and then I looked at the— then I looked at the corporate tax, of which there is none. I don't have to pay B&O tax and all these other— all these other taxes that you have to pay in Washington. I was like, wait, this is business friendly, it's landlord friendly, it's the environment we want to live in. That's how I chose where. And then as we were driving city to city, my wife, when we drove the city She was like, yes, 100%, that is where I want to live. And so I found a plot of land here and we built the house. Loving Texas, by the way. Do you need a realtor or is it better to get a lawyer to write offers? I like using a realtor and here's why. Do they usually cost you money? Yes. I mean, not really when you're buying, but as you start to sell things and sometimes you get creative, yeah, they cost a little bit of money. I like to use an agent because they get to know you and your buying habits and what you like to do. And if it's a great agent, they will bring you more deals, and increasing your deal flow is always good for business. I'd found— I have found every single time a good broker is worth the cost. And I have fantastic brokers I work with, one of the best I've ever worked with. Endorse them right here, Eric Vubel. He is in the Seattle area. I have partnered with him on a deal. I have bought, purchased multiple deals with him. Uh, fantastic, absolutely fantastic broker. Would I pay him or spend more money to have him write it up than a lawyer? Absolutely, every single time, because you do more business with them and they make more money, and they typically like making more money, and they'll bring you more deals. All right, that's what I have time for today because I have to continue to prep for the Section 8 thing. I have a few more slides that I wanted to add that I thought of here today. Um, want to get prepped for that, get everything in line. So if you want to attend the masterclass, it's completely free. There's no obligation. And this isn't one of those stupid online funnels like, will I invite you at the very end to join Multifamily Strategy? Absolutely, because it's amazing. Uh, but this is not one of those funnels where it's like, if you want to learn everything else, join. I will literally share everything that I do on this webinar, like this strategy whole package. If you come to this webinar, you will know exactly how to use Section 8 and subsidized housing in your market the way I have to make billions of dollars. Whole strategy. I've spent a long time on this presentation. I've been working on it for a couple months. I think it's right about where I want it. So I'm really excited to bring this to you guys. If you guys want to be there, it is in an hour and a half. Go ahead and register, and I will see you there. Actually, you know what, I, like usual, I'll answer one bonus question because Mason asked a question here. Do you have any hard money lender recommendations, uh, that cover East Coast? I think Flynn might have actually expanded their— Flynn Family Lending. You can always check them. They're based in Renton, Washington, but they do go out of state. Uh, so check on the East Coast. If not, if you look up on YouTube Lumberjack Landlord, he has a lot of lender connections. Uh, that is Matt Hawkins. He is on YouTube. He is fantastic. And he is in the Northeast. All Nighter, of course, and Mason, thank you so much. Okay, everyone, I will see you later tonight, about an hour and a half.