What they don't tell you about Creative Finance - Seller Finance Live

And we are live, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Multifamily Strategy Live, joined again by Caleb because we are in Dallas, I am home, baby.

Come on now.

There we go. If you guys can hear the audio, we're trying a new setup today, so if the audio sounds good, uh, it's all Christian's fault if it doesn't. Yes, but, uh, if it does work, let me know in the comments if you guys can hear me okay. Give me a thumbs up, thumbs down, whatever it is. And, uh, very excited to get rolling today. As always, we're going to start with today's topic. We're going to talk about the specific thing, uh, that is the subject of the video, which today is going to be the pitfalls to creative finance, but I don't think enough people online do talk about. We're gonna talk about a few different types of creative finance, what doesn't work, even in seller financing, problems that people consistently see there. We're getting a thumbs up from Chris, so I think we can—

let's go—

we can be heard. That is always very positive. Chris, thank you for the, uh, thumbs up there in the chat. So I know that we are, uh, we are at least live there. We talk about the pitfalls, then we're going to open up to Q&A. Depending on how many people join us, how many questions we get will depend on how long we go. Uh, also, quick announcement, we are running a webinar tonight. I'm running it on creative finance specifically. So after we're talking about the pitfalls, you guys are invited to that. That is free, link is in the description on the YouTube video. All right, so let's talk creative finance.

Perfect.

The biggest pitfall specifically is seller financing. I want to start there because I think that's, that's the one we talk about the most on seller financing. The biggest problem is the same as your biggest benefit. There are no banks, there is no other underwriter. You get what you negotiate. Now, that's beautiful if you're designing your own deal. You find the deal, you find the perfect debt products, you get something amazing. Now you go ahead, find the equity, close the deal. What happens though if you don't know how to underwrite it? You made a wrong assumption, you didn't do the right math, you signed it, everyone said yes. Well, guess what? You still own that deal. You still have that liability. I have seen this happen. This doesn't happen on every deal, but I've seen this happen before. Seen someone buy a deal and they bought a bunch of other deals and they, they built a great portfolio. They went back to the first deal and they're like, oh wait a second, I overpaid for that one a little bit. I actually need more capital for it. I didn't underwrite it with enough knowledge. I've seen deals where people actually have to sign it back over. That's like your worst case scenario. Now you don't want to get a bankruptcy, you don't want to get a foreclosure, so make sure you avoid those at all costs or your ability to buy real estate in the future.

Will go down significantly.

Now, your actual solution to this is you work with the seller and you say, hey, I want to do a— I just want to sign it back to you. We're gonna do a quitclaim deed, we're going to get paperwork drafted, and we're just going to go ahead, I'm going to sign it back to you. We're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna negatively affect our record. Your worst case scenario should be that if you've negotiated seller financing, if something goes wrong, you want to give as much heads up as you can to the actual seller. Hey, I think it is looking like I might be in default. What, how, what do we want our solution to do? Now, for the seller, They got paid a down payment, so they already got paid. They've been paid on the property. Getting the property back is not usually the worst thing in the world. It's not often what they want. And occasionally they'll come back and they'll even work with you. You might be able to renegotiate.

And then kind of caveating here, it's super important to actually be easy to work with here. There was a person in Christian's universe who had— we obviously won't name names— tried to falsify documents and do all this crazy stuff. Lost real estate in the process. Make sure you're upfront, you're honest. Transparency is huge. I think— would you agree with this? One of the biggest learning lessons we've had in business overall is just the ability to communicate. Make sure you're just communicating with everybody in your universe, whether that's your broker, your property manager, your investors, your business partner, whoever it might be. Just make sure there's communication. That usually solves a lot of the problems. If you're just in the dark, MIA, and then like some people, then you have all these judgments and all this stuff, you can start going on this death spiral rabbit hole, and that's not the goal for anybody. So before you even get there, just find a way to make people whole and preemptively addressing it.

But it's one of the big pitfalls to creative finances. If you negotiate it and you had a wrong assumption or something didn't go the right way, you have the ability to overpay for properties and you have the ability to negotiate some custom clauses. If they don't work out the way that you think they will, it could be disastrous. Another way that's really worked out for me is with the Robin Hood Village Resort. A bank might not have approved us just because of the size of the loan and because we didn't have any hospitality experience.

How much is your loan there?

Uh, loan's $3.5 million.

You guys bought that pretty early on.

Yeah, and I think we were worth about— I, I think we were worth about $2.5 million when we bought it. I don't, I don't think we would have got the bank loan. It would have been tight. And on banks, and the bigger thing is banks have lended really low LTV for hospitality specifically, especially then.

Is, is that changed at all with hotels or anything, or is that pretty much—

they've come up a little bit with LTVs, but I mean, it's just like 70 tops? Uh, like 65% is what you'd be looking at. So it'd be a larger down payment. It wouldn't have been a feasible deal with bank debt. We bought it and it turns out it wasn't the right project. It's doing really well. Uh, we actually got all our stuff fixed on Booking.com and Expedia.

Let's go.

Yeah, we had a lot of fixes to make, a lot of fixes to make.

We're there, son. Let's go.

But we actually did get it fixed, which was really helpful. The problem is creative finance allowed us to get into a project that wasn't the right project for us. I think a banker or another underwriter would have helped. So the biggest thing, biggest problem with creative finance, at least seller financing, you get what you negotiate. It's the best part, it's also the worst part. Another one that I think is really important to share: subject to. This is a clause I've talked about this before on the channel. Subject to is a way that you can acquire properties that have debt on them without further encumbering the property. You keep the existing person's debt in place, so the seller's debt stays in place. You pay them, they pay their mortgage. Uh, and besides the obvious problem that if you want a property, you don't want to have a big workaround where the seller's still involved to that level, uh, you want the debt and the property in your name. Uh, okay, what are some of our downsides to subject-to?

Yeah, I mean, nobody likes signing a deal back over. That's the big thing. It's seller finance. If you— seller finance, if you don't execute properly, you're going to sign it back over. Subject-to, if a bank catches you, it doesn't matter if your deal is cash flowing 80%. Cash on cash, whatever, because you're no money in, you do this distressed owner thing, whatever you call it. If you're— if you get audited, you get audited, and you have— you can pay the whole amount up front, you can try to sign it back over to a loan off, like an option contract, all this crazy stuff with the previous— sell, like the seller. It's like, it's just an absolute mess. I will say though, I do like this idea on cars. I just don't like this idea on anything real estate related.

Yeah, if you do it like a vehicle, that's fine, right?

I've actually— I'm actually trying to do that currently.

It's a little bit of money, and you know, you're not dealing with these like crazy due-on-sale clause, right? A car company is not going to come out and repo the car because it was traded subject to. They're not checking title.

It's not— it's not— well, the difference is people are like, oh, why not?[No speech] Let's test that.

Can anyone hear me? Testing, testing, testing. We started with good audio. Let's see if we can continue it. I got us back on Instagram. There we go. Sorry about that, everyone. For those waiting on the audio, we're back.

I have no idea where we left off. Um, did we talk about subject to and why you can do it on cars and not an apartment building yet?

I think so. Let's, uh, let's pick up there though. I like it on cars because there's no title search. You're not gonna get your car repo because you sold it subject to. People do it all the time. That's fine. On a house, it's public record, it's title. You're talking hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on depending where you're buying.

Multi-family, that's, that's your worst case scenario. Any, any commercial asset, you're just asking for trouble. Absolutely.

Uh, diving into a couple of the questions, by the way, that's the biggest thing. Uh, for those, in summary, the biggest problem with creative finance is that you get what you negotiate. And I see it done all the time where people are like, well, I was able to close the deal. Uh, just because it makes money doesn't mean it makes sense, and sometimes it doesn't even make money. You do not want to lose the property. You have to buy it where you can buy it, never lose it. You need to know how to underwrite. If you don't know how to underwrite partner with or find someone who does. Wait, Matthew asked a question here on, uh, on Instagram. Have you considered other asset classes besides multifamily? It seems like so many maintenance and management issues. I could be wrong. Hop in with this. Absolutely, please do.

Um, when I was living in Stephenville for what, 5, 6 months down there, had a great relationship with an owner. Um, let's call him Mr. Joe. Mr. Joe had an awesome self-storage facility he offered me to buy. It was $5 million. It would have been about half my portfolio at the time. And for me, it's like self-storage could be awesome. One of our brokers, who's actually a dear friend of Christian's, is an incredible self-storage investor. He kills it. There are certain things about self-storage I just don't know that I don't know. I'm going to get into it. I'll be like, I didn't know this expense would be here. This should have been on the T12. I didn't see that. Whatever asset class you decide to go with, the game's the same as far as the relationships go. Just don't pivot a bunch. A lot of these titans in business, if you go look throughout history have lost most of it when they tried to pivot. And so if you're a self-storage guy, stick with self-storage. If you're an office, I'll pray for you. If you're a retail guy, stick with retail. If you're multifamily, stick with multifamily. That's what I would caveat that with. Yeah.

By the way, we have a comment here. Cody's replacement is kind of cute, not going to lie. So I'm just letting everyone know from Instagram, Caleb is officially single and owns a bunch of real estate. So yeah, we're Let's relax. Yeah, let's, uh, everyone submit your offers. Uh, question from YouTube, which is always great. I can toss up on the screen here. I just joined, quick question: are most seller finance contracts, uh, ones that balloon in 3 to 5 years? I try to buy everything in long-term cash-flowing fixed-rate debt. I think this is extremely important. That way, every time you buy a deal, you increase your income. Now, if it has a lot of upside, you can increase that. It's even better, which is most the opportunities that we do.

I think another thing too, I bought in the 3 years, I bought in the 5-year, and I bought the 10-year. The 3-year is coming due next year sometime. There's not a lot of stress with it because I won on price so drastically. That was the only reason I even thought about compromising on that. I did. If you're not absolutely slaughtering on price with a great debt product and low down, I wouldn't even look at it. I would just— at bare minimum, 5. And like, for, for me, I bought it 3. I wish I would have done 5.

Yeah, the short answer, it most seller finance contracts, most of mine are 5 to 15 years. I have a lot of 10-year debt, a lot, lot of 10-year debt. I would say that's probably the most common product that I have personally experienced because that's what I ask for. It's one of the great things about seller finance. Um, sometimes though, you're saying like percentage-wise, to answer the, the question, um, hard to say because it depends on what you're looking for. It's completely custom, so there is no standard for creative finance. For me, the standard is about 10%. It is totally fine though if you have a deal with a lot of upside, say it's a little lower cash flow, not bankable, but you want to bring it into bank debt. 3 to 5 years can be tons of time if you're trying to do basic improvements to a property to get it into a long-term debt product. The key is having a very clear game plan and a path to get it into long-term fixed rate debt. Don't compromise on cash flow, but as long as you have a plan to get into long-term debt, 3 to 5 years could be more than adequate. Completely agree.

And there's, um, the first deal we did in Stephenville. I was asking for 7 for 10. Older gentleman came back, said, I don't know if I'll be alive in 7 to 10 years. Can we do less? It was like, okay, we can switch some things around. So it does depend on the pieces, but I would shoot longer.

I think that's a really good way to do it.

That was super funny when he came back with that too. I didn't know.

That's not what I expected. No, but, but totally true. You know, it's in his 80s.

If you've got an 8 at the front of your age number, you're probably not gonna last a ton longer.

What's a favorable return day one? Um, for me, I think a good return— again, if you do zero down, it's an infinite return, so cash on cash is not the best metric. On a basic level, if I have something where I'm cash flowing 8% on the money invested, I'm pretty happy day one. There needs to be a way to grow that into double digits, but I found if I'm starting cash flowing about where the return on the stock market would be, you know, people target a 6 to 8% return. If we're cash flowing that right out of the gates, that feels pretty good because as an experienced operator, I know there's a lot of efficiency which we can do on the top line and the bottom line to increase cash flow over time. That's not inclusive of appreciation and other things that happen organically as you hold real estate. That's a pretty good metric. I think a better one Debt service coverage ratio. If you can start at or get to quickly a 1.5 DSCR, that is a true metric of cash flow that says after I pay all my bills, this is how much I have left to pay my mortgage and pay myself. If you can pay yourself at least half the mortgage after all operating expenses are over, I think that's a really safe metric and it also makes a very bankable property if you ever need to refinance or pull into a different debt product. You're in a more than adequate position at a 1.5 DSCR. Completely agree.

And if we can talk about cash flow at that end, but if we're going to talk about overall return, it varies, right? Christian and I are doing a deal currently, definitely tighter up front. On the back end, the equity multiple is nothing short of gigantic. So when you've been in the game for longer, you can do these different deals. Cash flow is not something you need to compromise on. You need to at least have 6% plus cash flow. If there's a crazy upside in the back end, like Christian said, 8 to 10 is ideal.

Oh, I actually really like this comment also from FTL Realtor. Um, thanks, found an 8-unit deal for $2.5 million, rents are below market.

Yeah, uh, where's he buying at? Miami? If he's Florida—

or that's FTL, I don't know if FTL is— uh, yeah, I'm— no, we'll find out. Um, so they're willing to sell our finance. Friend, the mortgage broker, saying most of the seller financing is seeing on deals are short-term. I think a lot of people are using seller financing as a bridge product, and this has been really common in the last few years. Sellers want a certain price, deal doesn't work at that price, maybe there's some upside to get it there, but they're like, it doesn't work now the interest rates have tripled. So a lot of things that we've seen over the last 2 years have been a lot of 3 and 5-year debt basically where the seller is giving you a bridge loan. It's basically saying, hey, I would like to be cashed out. I recognize I can't be cashed out at the price I want on today's rates, so I'm going to give you a lower rate and buy you time. And what I think is going to happen is that's going to happen less and less now that rates are starting to go back the other way. They're coming back down. Absolutely. There'll be less of those. I, I kind of consider it a seller bridge loan. I think there's going to be less of that. And terms— people either just not seller finance, you know, go to a bank because you have a great interest rate, which you could still do zero down, by the way. You don't, you don't need to have the money to use a bank. Uh, people will do more creative finance deals utilizing banks, or the seller financing will be longer term again. So you'll see more of that, you know, 5, 10, 15-year seller debt that I'm accustomed to. It's a good question. Great question. Average, uh, what average interest rate are we seeing? Um, higher than market rate currently. 1,000% deal dependent. That's the great thing with creative finance, uh, and we've said it a bunch of times on this, we'll say it a bunch of times more, you get exactly what you negotiate. I have a lot of debt between 3% and 5%. A lot of debt between 3% and 5%. Um, I also have 6% seller debt, I have 8% seller debt, I have 18% debt, I have 13.5% debt. It's fallen in all of those. It depends on the deal and what the deal can support. Are you paying an equity multiple out to your investors? Are you just sharing cash flow? There's a lot of variables here, but at the end of the day, there has to be positive cash flow. So there is no standard, but I have found, uh, Caleb, for our seller finance deals, a lot of them seem to come out around 5%. Seems to be the magic number.

Yeah, it kind of seems like an easy number, 5%. You always set the anchor a little bit lower and you work up to that, especially if you're buying deals on lower caps, which seller finance you can do that have a lot of upside. The first or the last seller finance deal we bought Bought it maybe at a 4 in front of the cap rate, but you had the ability to double rents. So on that, we needed lower cash. We— that one's super complex, the interest rate, negative AM, all this crazy stuff. But our actual interest rate on that is 5%. Mm-hmm.

And FTL does stand for Fort Lauderdale, by the way.

That's good, uh, oh, I didn't even realize that. I was thinking Florida. I thought— I didn't even see the T in there.

Oh, there you go. I was like, I was like, that's probably Fort Lauderdale.

You're saying Miami?

Oh my God, it's right next Miami. So we'll see if you're right. But yes, uh, you are correct, Fort Lauderdale. Completely did that on purpose. Yeah, uh, it basically is saying, yeah, it does look a little bit fishy with the— it's under market rent, it's over market price. It does sound like it may be an overpriced deal, which is why they're offering seller finance terms. If it's short term, I'd be a no. If you can get it to cash flow on 10-year debt though, with a great debt product, I can guarantee you one thing: real estate in Fort Lauderdale will be worth more in a decade than it is today. Heck of a lot. I don't know where the market's going to be in 3 years. I have, I have some guesses, but my guess is as good as the next person's. We do know that in any 8 to 10 year period, markets increase and they increase by a lot in the long run. Drastically. That's a long enough period of time where, uh, if it's a mild overpay on great terms, 10 years, I'll probably do it. If you're massively overpaying, I mean, you don't want to start out underwater, especially if, especially newer investors are listening to this. I don't want to start out just absolutely negative on a piece of real estate. That is a brutal, brutal place to be. That's really rough and it sucks. Yeah. So I would recommend against massive overpays because you're going to start with a negative net worth. And if you start moving into bank debt and you're worth negative money, even if you're cash flowing, bank doesn't care. They're like, this doesn't make it, you know, it doesn't make any sense. You can't—

why would— why would it— doesn't make sense for them. Why would they do it?

The answer is they wouldn't. It's a dangerous place to be. Is the, is the long and short of it. Um, okay, I got a question here on the Instagram side. Let's go. Thoughts on buying SROS multifamily building? I have no idea what SROS—

we're gonna find out right now.

Caleb's looking it up. I'm trying to, I'm trying to like even guess what that would be unless he responds quicker. Yeah, we may, so I will, I'll see what happens in the, uh, not, not SRO. It says S-R-O-S.

Uh, single room occupancy housing is a type of low-cost housing that consists of multiple single room dwelling units in a multi-tenant building. Oh no.

Okay, so I do have thoughts on this. I've seen this done in a single family all the time. What is this essentially? Bedroom rentals.

Oh no.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

Yep. Single room occupancy multifamily. Okay. I, yeah. Multiple problems with this. One, and it depends on what state you're in. If you're— many states like Washington, where I first started— I'm in Texas now. Uh, in Washington State, if you're doing bedroom rentals, you're tenants in common. There is no way to separate it legally. People try it, but there's no way to separate out the lease so that you can't evict someone from a bedroom. You can evict a tenant per apartment. So if you're looking at like evictions, you have a problem, you have to kick everyone out. It's a total mess. Police don't want to get involved. It's a larger civil issue, uh, unbelievably expensive. It can cost— agreed, I've seen it cost up to $9,000 to process a single eviction on a bedroom rental. You also have a lot more turnover even on a room-by-room basis. People don't stay there as long. People want to move out of those and into those faster. It's a more transient population.

It's not a hostel per se. It's like But at the end of the day, putting yourself in their shoes, nobody wants to live in a house where they don't know anybody in a room. That's kind of miserable. This is different though, caveat here, this is different than additional dwelling units, ADUs, where they're actual units and you're just building on a bunch of these additional ones that are considered separate. I don't hate that business model depending where you're at. We've got a buddy, a couple buddies do it very well. Um, you can do— there's just a whole different game to this. I would stay away from What is it, the SROS?

Yeah, I would stay away from the single bedroom rental. And at the end of the day, the reason that we do what we do is for stability. We do multifamily. This goes back to that earlier question. I'll post it back up here, uh, if I can find it. But it's about different assets. Oh, you know what, actually it might have been on, um, I think it was actually one on, uh, the Instagram, which I can't display on the screen for some reason. It's lame. I know, right? Different asset classes. The reason we do multifamily is because, one, it's, it's scalable. People always need housing. People need more traditional housing, and it's stable. I can get people on long-term leases. I can manage it. What you end up with is a management-heavy nightmare. If you wanted to buy a few properties, so say you bought a sixplex and you wanted to max the revenue on it, a room-by-room rental is going to max the income. You're going to make more money on that. The problem is, as you go to scale, it's a really hard model to scale. If I tried to do that with a 225-unit portfolio, it would be insane. You also aren't increasing the value of that building. A bank's not going to look at a bedroom rental and say, well, based on this net operating income, they're going to underwrite it as if it was multifamily. They're going to use their own comps because they're going to say this is an unusual use.

Caveat here, student housing is a whole different thing we're not even going to start talking about. True. If you like There's a guy in San Diego, awesome investor, shout out Chris Luna, does a ton of student housing and he kills it. If you're looking to do that, that's a whole different business model. At the end of the day, the principles don't change. How you operate might change. Christian and I have looked into some student housing deals. We never pulled the trigger. Banks could look at those differently. But if you're in a town that— a city that doesn't have a college and you're— or you're 10 miles away from a college, nobody's going to care. Yeah, you have to be in the bubble like For instance, the one that pops in the head is the Baylor bubble in Waco. If you're in the Baylor bubble, okay, this can happen. If you're 15 miles away from campus in some 10-plex in the middle of nowhere, nobody's going to care.

Exactly right. Exactly right. Hop over to Instagram. What do you think of single unit rentals? Are they more difficult to rent? So we're talking like single family, right?

I think it depends on the market, right? If you're trying to rent a single family to a mom, father, and children in the middle of a party district near a college, that will be more tough. Uh, it all just depends on your markets. It's— then it's principles of principle. It's hard to scale, I will tell you that much. Buying— if Christian and I bought 50 deals at 40 units, we're sitting pretty. If you try to buy 50 single-family houses, we could have done that one deal.

Yeah, you know, there's a lot of different ways to play the game. There's different ways to make money, in my opinion though. It is impossible to scale as a solo operator with enough houses to have efficiencies. You lose so much. Uh, you can generate the same top-line revenue, but it's the bottom-line revenue. You condense so many expenses when you have one roof to pay for over multiple, multiple units. You have one campus, one ground, so you have all these efficiencies. You lose a lot of efficiencies when you do unit by unit. If your goal is to get to, you know, 5 or 10 single-family houses my wife's aunt and uncle. We were just talking about this. Higher income earners. They own some small businesses. And by own small businesses, I mean like franchises, Massage Envy, and that sort of stuff. Higher paid. They're not super wealthy. They're wealthy though. They bought 10 houses over their lifetime. Actually, I think it was 12. They sold off 6 of them to pay for both their kids to get through school. It did exactly what they wanted. They got to keep 6, sold 6. They have some rental income that supplements their lifestyle. They like to spend, they like to go on fancy vacation. They were able to pull that off, but they had to both work full-time the whole way. If you want to do that, that's fine. They're work hard, play hard people. They came up with a model, an investment strategy that worked for what they're trying to do. If your goal is to create financial freedom and create an actual business in this, you are going to run into limitations on single family and single units. I'm not saying you need to buy 100 whatever units, but I found that if you're buying 12s, 25s, 30s, 40s, 50-unit buildings, it is so much easier to stack, scale, and make more money. I was making about— when I was just doing duplexes and single family, I was making about $100,000 a year fixing up a property or two, and that was it. When I did one 38-plex, I made $1 million in one deal, and then I did multiple deals that were making multi-hundred thousand or sometimes 7-figure deals. I was like, oh, it's not that much harder. It's a lot easier to scale, and you're basically just adding an extra zero to the numbers, which is much, much, much easier to scale. That's really it.

I mean, I think a lot of people— this is when I got started— you kind of put yourself in this box, and a lot of the big channels out there, all this stuff will put you in this box too, of you have to buy a single family. Christian, you can't buy a 38-unit. Caleb, you can't buy— what are we buying right now— 44-unit. You can't do this stuff. The truth is you can, and it's really just a mindset shift. Like Christian said, it's some extra numbers behind it and some extra leases to underwrite. The numbers get bigger. The principles did the same. It's income minus expenses minus your mortgage. Bottom line, making sure that pencils out with what banks are looking for and what you're looking for as a return. If you get that, you go start scaling up. Exactly right.

Uh, Pete has here in the chat, what attributes do you prioritize in property location? What would be a deal breaker? So there, there are exceptions to this. You're always looking for where you personally have a competitive advantage.

That's number one, by the way. Everybody out there talks about looking for markets. One, one A and one B: competitive advantage and growing market.

There's real estate everywhere. And so if you live in an area and population happens to be declining, which is the first metric I look at— do you— providing housing for humans, do humans want to live there? That's the most important thing. However, I had someone ask, hey, I live in Cleveland, Ohio. Population's gone down and down and down and down and down and down here over time, but deals do cash flow. There are people who like living here. And so we use that as a case study. Would I invest in Cleveland, Ohio? No, because I don't live there. I don't know people who live there. I don't have systems there. I don't— I have no advantages competitively. Why would you? But if I lived in Cleveland, Ohio and I had access to deals there and I could build teams, I would absolutely invest in Cleveland, Ohio. It's a higher cash flow market because of the declining population. Investors expect a higher return. You're able to build a ton of cash flow there, and you have the advantage of being able to touch the properties. You can actually be near your real estate. I think that's really valuable. I'm gonna plug this in before it, uh, loses, uh, loses all the power. But, uh, yeah, continue on. What other things would you look for in property location? What do we like about places like Stephenville, Texas?

Yeah, so this thing with Stephenville, it's kind of a cheat code for Christian and I, is you have super stable industry and you have a lot of growth potential to school. And the state of Texas, the third biggest agricultural center is Erath County, which is Stephenville's the county seat of, which is the biggest population driver of. So you're taking a town with college kids, 40,000 people, a county that maybe is pushing six figures, and it's the third biggest county agriculturally in Texas. When you've got major counties like Dallas, Tarrant, Harris, can't remember what San Antonio is, Bexar, I can't remember what Austin is, but you got some huge counties and a small little thing, Erath County is killing it. That must be pretty stable. And I've been out there, I've driven by the dairy farms, there's a lot of them. And you have a school that is just shooting through the roof. So you've got the best of both worlds. You've got your firm foundation, you've got your high growth potential. For us, Stephenville's been great. And then like he said, competitive advantages. We're expanding into other markets close by, whether it's Weatherford, Waco, Granbury, Cleburne, gosh, I don't know, Mineral Wells, Abilene, all these things that are kind of in the geographical area-ish. We have advantage there because we have such a hub in Stephenville. We'll start looking slightly outside of that place.

Yeah, I like to see job diversity. I don't want to buy— I love investing in college towns, but I don't want to invest in a college town just because it's a college town. Another thing people talk about is like military housing. I'm going to be near a base. Bases move, troops move, population goes up and down. There needs to be other income drivers. I wouldn't invest near a base just because it's a base. Now I've invested near, uh, up in Bremerton. We have Banger, We talked about this. It's like the largest nuclear base on the West Coast. That one's not going anywhere. There are different forts and bases and ports that shut down or move or have different allocations.

Random question, actually, we haven't talked about this. I was just talking to somebody about this, um, actually at church last night. Huntsville, Texas, um, don't know if anybody knows, it's about an hour north of Houston. I've got— I've looked at deals there in the past. And the biggest employer there is a prison. It's the biggest prison in the state of Texas, employs an arm and a leg of people. And there's not like— there's another big university there. There's not a ton of like diversity. What would you do there? Because it's like you have a prison, let's say government, like obviously government-backed, government-regulated facility. Um, is that something you would go, hey, I like this? Because as the college— do that— colleges grow over time. That one looks like it's growing. Texas is growing as a whole. Is that something you'd be like, hey, I'm interested here? Or if you like— I was talking to somebody literally about church about this— or is that something you'd be like, hey, I'm gonna stay away from?

Uh, it again, it just depends on the demographics. If population— if population is going up there and there's other people and jobs around all of that, then I would say yes, I actually do really like this. Um, and like you mentioned, like a prison— like prison can be big business, and there's a lot of people— there's a lot of people go into that. Um, we're also not really good at in this country managing our prisons. So I don't see population going down there anytime soon. We're not doing mass releases. They're mostly full, unfortunately, until we see major change. If I see multiple drivers, right, I see a school that seems to be growing in Houston. Yep. It's like, okay, you look at that school, it's like, okay, it's going up in student count year over year. That means population is growing. Doesn't show up on the census, by the way.

They're not interested. They're not all registered. That's why Stephenville looks so small.

You don't always see it on the census. Stephenville's total population is about the same— listed population is about the same as the student population during the school year, which means Stephenville is actually twice the size that you think it is for almost the entire year. Good things to know. Um, so I'm looking at things like that. That's why I like to see in schools— it's the same thing as a city. Population needs to be going up. Uh, if you have a big industry, sure, prison counts as an industry. I'm fine with that.

Yeah, I basically said the same analysis. I would just kind of where I thought was my thought process is just seeing how stable the school is, what it actually looks like. Like Tarleton State and Stephenville just went D1. There's literally incentives they have to grow. Like, in instance, I don't know if we've talked about this, Stephenville needs to put in a nicer, brand new, bigger hotel to accommodate the football teams that are traveling in from out of state. If they don't, they have to stay in Granbury, 40 minutes away. Like, things like that where they are forced to expand and forced to build if some of these other schools aren't. That's just something to look into too, is my—

what I told the guy. They can stay at our place up in Mineral Wells if they want to. We'll leave a light on for you. Is that Motel 6?

They just got bought out, by the way. Random thing.

Oh really? Yeah, very interesting. Uh, we had a question here about Houston. What do you think of the Houston area market? Houston is super unique, super unique. Um, it's one of those markets that is neighborhood by neighborhood. There are nice places, and right next to them there are rough places. Houston has some crime. Houston has some problems.

Houston also has a big Metroplex as well.

Yeah, it has some insanely nice areas. Where you rent is really important. I found the easiest way to navigate that is with a property manager. Now, Caleb and I own a downtown property in Houston. It's a 10-unit building. It's one where it was, uh, we actually swapped out partners on it. Caleb had purchased it very, very young in his career. Very— well, he's still 21, but When Caleb was— you bought it when you were 19 or 20? 19. 19. Okay, so you bought it at 19 years old. Uh, second or third deal? Third. Third deal. Jeez, you move fast. Uh, deal number 3, right deal, wrong set of partners. Agreed. And they could not put the— they, they bought it at a fantastic price, but they bought it with enough money to close the deal, not enough to renovate the deal. That was the only structural problem that I saw there.

Caveat going in on that, so we had some money to renovate it, we just didn't have enough. And the partners I was working with at the time No, no ill will, no hard feelings, just incentives weren't aligned there. It's like, hey, there's a profit here, but we have to put in extra money to see this profit. And when there wasn't a will to put in that profit, it's like, okay, we can try to sell it, and then people are just lowballing us on price because it's not a finished project. And once you finish the project, then it's worth more. But until you finish the project, it couldn't be done.

Otherwise you're just selling your existing problems to the next person.

Exactly. And you put a little bit of cash into it, whatever, cool. Somebody's like, I still got to go operate this thing, and it's a distressed asset. And it's like, okay, we need to swap out partners and get into the nitty-gritty. So as far as Houston goes, I think there's some awesome areas. On the one caveat, my insurance doubled last year. Insurance people, insurers hate Houston. Insurance hate Beaumont. Hurricanes. Some people are just ridiculous as far as insurance. Mineral Wells, Texas is for— I don't even know how far we are from the ocean up there. People told us that was right, that was the most ridiculous thing ever.

Too close to the ocean. I think we're like 400 or 500 miles from the the ocean.

I think it's 500.

I'm like, where is the water? They actually called me back and they're like, oh, we actually looked at this incorrectly. It's— it was the count of roofs and the amount of wind there. Uh, interestingly, insurance, even though it's the same terrain, Erath County does not have the same premiums for wind insurance and tornado as Palo Pinto County, even though they're adjacent counties.

So insurance is a thing. Insurance is super interesting right now too. It's like kind of like we're looking at it like how you can get it lower. Like, there are certain things where it's deductibles, because if something happens, you're screwed either way. There's— that's a whole different thing. But overall, Houston, I think there's some super cool areas. I have some great friends that live there. Christian's got some family that lives there. There's awesome things about Houston. Um, they're also— the Third Ward and the Fifth Ward exist, which aren't very fun places to visit.

When, when in Houston, that is one of those markets where I would say I love it if you're local. If you're—

oh, if you're a local, you're gonna kill it.

Uh, if you're buying from out of state and you want to invest in Houston, you can. You need to have the right property manager, and you need to have one who can really tell you area by area, because it is one of those very, very specific markets. And I hear a lot of different economists talk about this. It's one of the ones where if you know, you can operate it, and if you don't know, you need to build a team that knows, or you need to find somewhere else to invest. That is, that is the long and short of Houston. I think Houston will continue to grow. I think it is a great market.

Well, it's like, what do they call it, the energy capital, the world.

Is that what they call it?

Well, that's what I heard recently.

I believe it.

I believe it. Because all oil and gas, that's major shipping lanes, all that stuff.

There's a lot that goes through, a lot that goes through Houston. And with Houston, like, my little sister lives there with her husband. They both have fantastic jobs there. My parents own a house in Conroe, Texas, which is just north of Houston. It's part of the, you know, the greater Houston Metro, Harris County, MSA, right there. People like living there. It's a cool place to live. There are lots of jobs. There's a lot of culture.

You have shipping. It's not going to stop growing.

The oil is not disappearing. The port's not disappearing, right? It's an ocean town. Like, it is, it is a port city, and there's a lot of oil industry there. Two things that are very, very big business. I look at those and I'm like, if you can invest there and you have the advantage or the ability I like Houston quite a bit. One day we'll manage in Houston.

We're a few years out. Yeah, we own there right now. I think if you come back in 24 months, we'll have quite a sizable portfolio managed in Houston. Yeah.

Um, gosh, I do love that. I do love that company too. Apex is starting to take off in Waco now. So quick plug, if you guys are— shameless plug— there's no shame in this. If you— yeah, you have a property in Texas, anywhere within like 100 miles of DFW, we will look at managing it. I— we are expanding quickly, and we are— what I found coming from Washington, where it's a lot harder to manage, we slay it in Texas because we're just used to a harder job. I have a team that is just built who are just absolutely killers, and, uh, we do a great job on leasing, great job managing, great job on reporting. And at the end of the day, we provide great places for tenants to stay. Like, we are good at the tenant side, the owner side, the book side, the income side.

I think the biggest thing— we are really good. If you're watching this live, you're watching it after, you're showing this to a friend, whatever, we're going to manage your property like owners. I've been through already in my short career a number of bad managers. Property managers suck, for lack of a better term. We know that. We're managing your property like we're the owner. We're not managing it like we're managers collecting a fee every month that could care less. We want to do a good job because it's the pride of ownership, and that's really the difference with Apex compared to everybody else out there, especially in these small tertiary markets outside of the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. Just shoot us a message, Christian or myself, we'd be happy to chat.

Uh, FL Realtor, who is, uh, by the way, thank you for contributing today, uh, has a lot on the YouTube today, a lot of questions, a lot of feedback.

So thank you for that. Let's go.

He's originally from Houston, goliath of a city. Uh, outskirts are nice and growing so fast. Yeah, it those big cities, if you can get in the outside of them, in the path of growth, that's where you typically get the most appreciation. What's— even my house, like, I'm in like the fastest growing area.

What's wild, I was about to bring this up, uh, Roanoke, Texas, which is semi-nearby, not really, that's basically where I live, depends, um, what you say. There's projection in what I think it was 15 years that Roanoke's gonna be the center of Dallas-Fort Worth. If you look on a map, you're gonna be like, what? You got to get in the lines of growth. There's a reason we like the west side of Dallas-Fort Worth. It's growing west, it's growing northwest, it's growing even northeast a little bit— Plano, McKinney, Melissa up there too. So it's just understanding where the growth is. And as a whole, if you're in the Houston MSA, if you're in the Dallas-Fort Worth MSA, you're probably gonna be better off than not. I don't know enough about San Antonio, and I am disgusted with Austin, so that's a whole different ball game there. But it's getting growing areas.

Oh, here's an interesting one. Um, it is over on Instagram. Wanting to get into my small town market, uh, 25K people, uh, currently in two larger syndications out of state where it'll be hard to syndicate here. Would you recommend starting with small partner JV, etc., versus larger syndication? Absolutely, absolutely. There are— and I, I am one of the people who has the ability to syndicate. I think I have an advantage, right?

We talk a lot about this, actually.

I have a YouTube channel that has 111 subscribers.

I thought it was 17. I thought it was 117,000.

No, I think I'm on 111. I'll double-check it. Maybe I have more than I thought, um, but I don't think so. I check it pretty, pretty regularly. I'm pretty, I'm pretty proud of that.

I'm pretty proud. Let's go. Pretty proud of what we've accomplished.

But, but it's still— I mean, I have a mid-sized YouTube channel. We have, and again, a mid-sized Instagram. But I have a lot of publicity. I do a lot of speaking. I, I, and I've been on BiggerPockets many times. I have a platform where raising capital is easier for me than others. I have chosen not to syndicate very specifically. One, I don't think the incentives line up with the outcomes. I'm paid upfront to buy the deal regardless of how good of a deal it is. I'm paid when we sell the deal regardless of how well we did. Acquisition, disposition, management fees. Syndication has too many fees for me. There's too, there's too much of I get paid regardless of how good I am. In a partnership, we are all stakeholders. I also find in our partnership structures I get astronomically more equity. I'll hold on a deal where I put $0 in, I'll hold somewhere between— often, or the owning LLC, like between Caleb and I on a deal, will own somewhere between 50 and 100% of the deal, $0 out of pocket. You can't do that in a syndication. You have to give away more. You get a smaller piece of a deal with more overhead, with more regulation, with more expenses. It is cheaper, easier, faster, and more lucrative if you can do this with less people, especially if you're talking like mid-sized buildings. You can knock these out JVs all day long. I have never syndicated. I have done— I'm at 225 units. By the end of the year, if we acquired nothing but what we're under contract for, I'll be over 300 units. I'm going to sell one of my buildings before then. Um, hopefully, uh, the 30-unit hotel that was designed as a flip should— I should be down 30, up 126. I got 96 more units to go this year if we don't go under contract for anything else, which we probably will.

As long as I'm here, that's extremely unlikely.

Caleb, uh, Caleb has a lot going on in the pipeline. As things scale, I found it's easy to scale with JVs. Um, they're so— they're so much simpler I think they're safe. I think they're better aligned for your objectives and the investor's objectives. Not that you can't charge an acquisition fee for a JV. Uh, we, we do an assignment fee for, for our deals, nominal.

And there's nothing wrong with that, right? I think a lot of people get it twisted, like, oh my gosh, you're taking an assignment fee. It's like, well, yes, we have to run the project. This helps fund earnest money and down payments on future projects. Am I going to take 5% or 8% in total fees like some of these big online gurus do? Absolutely not. If you're taking 8% total fees and your deal craps the bed, you get paid regardless. You don't care. For us, it's like we take a nominal fee on a deal that has $6 million of upside.

A doesn't equal B. Yeah, Caden has a good question here on Instagram. Have you found some seller finance apartments that have let you put very little cash, uh, in for down payment? I have done zero down seller financed, uh, on an apartment building in Seattle. Well, Tukwila, but suburb of Seattle. Uh, we put 3.5% down, put $50,000 down on the acquisition of a commercial building, and we had like 4-bedroom units in there, 2-story buildings. I've actually been to that property. Yeah, it was a large project, but we were able to buy it. I mean, $50,000 for 7 commercial units on a half acre in Seattle is insane. That is so low. That's basically zero down. So you look at the cash-on-cash return on that where he made hundreds of thousands of dollars, it's like, it's a deal where it's like, wow, the multiple is insane because we put so little down. Um, absolutely, we have found seller finance. Uh, the most I've done down seller finance thus far, uh, has been about 22% in Robin Hood Village Resort. I put a little over 20% down on that one. I've done 20% down a few times. Most of them have been 5% or 10% down. Yeah, all I would say of 20 transactions, maybe 15 of them have been 10% down or less.

Sounds about accurate. I mean, as you go bank, obviously LTVs, loan products change. You're about to put more down. That's a big benefit with seller financing. I was just sitting here thinking too, dude, if Washington was red, Seattle would be such a cool market.

Seattle's a beautiful place.

Um, if it was—

and you're from San Diego, San Diego is a beautiful place as well, but the politics aren't great. The, the taxes aren't great. My weather— the weather in Washington's just really what got me down.

The big difference—

depressing as heck. We have— since I have moved to Texas, for the whole mighty one month that I've been down here— full—

you've been here a month?

I've been here a month. Holy cow. Yeah, I did not realize. Wow, right? Yeah, it feels like two days. I know. It's, uh, it's been cloudy for one day since I've been down here. I love the Sun Belt. I love— some people really get energized by the weather. Like, some people are really affected by it. I found that I'm one of those people. When it's gray, I'm just— I don't feel the same drive, excitement, motivation.

The first time, um, I remember at one point in time Christian would fly me up to house sit instead of hiring a house sitter. Yes. Um, there was one time, it was, it was an extended thing because you were— I was house sitting, you were home, then I house sat again after you left. It was like 12 days of no sun. I have never been that depressed in my entire life. I was like, what is going on? Then I get back to San Diego and the sun—

it's a common thing. It's a common thing for a lot of people, uh, depression Seattle, I would imagine, is a super premium.

Because I grew up in San Diego. People are less social.

Yeah, people are less social. And then you look at the people and the people don't look healthy. We have a lot of junk food everywhere, as the whole West Coast does, but we don't get any sun and people don't get outside and people don't socialize. So you get a lot of pasty, obese people. Granted, there's some great, very fit people in Seattle, so I'm not calling everyone.

No, there are.

There's some beautiful people in Seattle, but there's not a lot. You gotta go to San Diego and then go to Washington. You're like, huh, huh, what's going on with the humans here? Uh, I wanted to get out of that. The biggest thing for me though with Texas— taxes are lower, gas is cheaper, business is friendlier. I think that third one is the key. That's the— I mean, they want business. Seattle hates businesses. I've renovated— I, I actually was just taking a tally of this. I've done on buildings that we acquired where we already had an issue, uh, and even in some of our buildings in Texas. But in, in Washington State and Texas, we have done— I think it was 14 units that had bed bug infestations that we fixed. Uh, cockroaches we fixed in 75 units. Oh, 75!

How many of those do we have?

These are individual units. That doesn't count the times where we had to do it multiple times.

I don't think that was— have we had any of that?

I don't think we've had a single car crash. I've done it in, uh, yeah, I was gonna say, please tell me that's not kind of a cheat to that. I had them in every unit in a 38-plex and every unit in a 30-plex. So right there, 68 of those 75, like most of them were in two large acquisitions.

That makes a lot more sense.

But we've cleaned up sincere problems in these towns. So like the stuff that we do, we provide better housing for people who need it. We buy things. I bought nice properties, I bought slummy properties and made them nice. But a lot of what we did in Moses Lake, Washington, Cody Davis and I, is we fixed up the worst of the worst properties and we made them excellent. I just posted a picture on Instagram, my last post. Like, seriously, check out my last post. Cody did this on a building he bought me out of. Gorgeous unit that is going to be rented Section 8. It's in a building that used to be the worst property in Moses Lake, worse than the 38. What was that? Uh, that was a 12-plex on Marina Drive.

There was a building worse than the 38.

It used to be next door to the food bank, so there was homeless milling around all the time. I mean, literally next door, they share a parking lot. Um, they have since moved, kind of funny enough, closer to my 38, but used to be the worst area. Uh, Cody bought that, he bought the 15-plex across the street, probably gonna buy the 5-plex next to that. He bought both sides of the street, he cleaned them up. And how does Washington State reward us? They tax the daylights out of us. They make evictions close to impossible, though we are still 23-0. Uh, really, really hard to operate. You come to Texas, it's reasonable. Now, are we still good landlords? Do we give people more than our required notice? Yes, we actually run very similarly to how we did in Washington— extra notice, extra regulations, better renovations. But having that massive standard on us all the time, enforced by the state, it makes it really cost prohibitive to want to do renovations.

Just why would you? Like, I get the end of the day, if you don't care and you're not a follower of Christ and you don't care about getting people a decent home to live, why would you?

Can you give details about the Steamboat deal? What was the structure of the deal? How many partners? So we've done 3 deals in Steamboat. Well, we've done, we've done 2 in, 2 in, uh, 4/5 deals. We're funded, ready to go, done with due diligence. The most recent one, 44 units. Uh, it is a 55+ LIHTC deal, so Section 42 rent-restricted property. We won on price like we've never won on price— $1.85 million for 44 units in our favorite town that we already own 51 units in. Uh, JV— I don't like a lot of partners. I usually only limit it to like maybe a team of 4 max. This one, we're coming in with 3 investors and Caleb and I, so we have 5 people on the team.

Well, technically 6 partners if you count the CHDO.

But oh, and the government program, you have to have a nonprofit that owns 1% of it because that's the law. They don't do anything. They actually explain to us how they don't do anything. We pay them to be a partner and that's all they do. They own 1% of the deal. So minus the silenced government entity that does actually nothing and acknowledges they do nothing, 99% of the deal, we went with 5 people. Um, I had an investor we really wanted to work with, and he was willing to put in half the money, and he was going to liquidate retirement accounts to do that. And, and, and I made the call just like, hey, I don't want you to put every single dollar into this deal. We can do more deals together on a risk basis. Not that I haven't done that. I put my last dollar into the 38.

I've been there too.

But he had enough money where I'm like, I'm like, it's a $540,000 raise. Let's do 180. Let's bring 3 people in at 180 each, spread the risk out. And some— a lot of these people have more money. It's like, let's do a second deal. I, I just— you can never guarantee. I've never had the deal go sideways personally. I've never had a deal go completely sideways, but I don't want the deal that goes wrong to have someone's last dollar in it. That's not— I'm not comfortable with that as an investor.

And so even as a human being, as Yeah, just no. No, I—

it's not a responsibility that I wanted, so we made the decision to structure in a way where we're able to defer people's risk over either multiple deals or they can buy their own deal. I don't want someone's last dollar, even a high-income individual. I don't want their last dollar. It's not a best practice. So we ended up going, uh, 3 shares of $180K for our capital raise for 51% of the total deal.

Yeah, 17% equity each.

Yep, which, uh, we're gonna turn— we did a math event on this recently, actually. Check it out. Um, yeah, I'm actually gonna post that later. I just finished editing it, so it's not posted yet. I'll actually post a recap of how we did our math on this. They're going to make on $180,000 investment— it's a long hold, it's going to be probably a 9-year-old, to be honest, uh, 6 to 9 years— they're likely going to make $750,000 to $1 million on $180,000. $100,000 investment.

There's a lot worse deals.

You have to wait almost a decade, or up to almost a decade, uh, but it's a phenomenal return. There is cash flow shared throughout in proportion to everyone's equity, and there's a lot of tax benefits for this particular deal. It's a good deal. It's a really good deal. Uh, but that's the way we chose to structure this one and why. We've also done— so this one was bank financed, uh, 80% LTV. The one before it, bank financed, 80% LTV, zero down, one partner.

The one for that—

local credit unions. Yeah, your local credit union's coming through.

Local credit union or direct to Fannie and Freddie are the two best options.

Yeah, that was absolutely fantastic. I'm seeing, uh, new comments here. So we have— we're 23-0. Someone's laughing about that. Yeah, no, I am, I'm very proud. I've also been to court two times. And I'm undefeated there. Uh, once was in a, in a mediation against a partner who was trying to steal from us. Uh, we, we, we crushed that one. Dude, we have court next month. Uh, yes we do. We're, we're over a mighty $1,000 fine. The city, uh, the city actually put in writing that we had an extension. We have it in email. And then the city sued us for operating without a, um, so, so they, they, um, gave us We, we bought a deal with an active certificate of occupancy, and then the city did an inspection, said, hey, there's a couple things that we actually— we forgot to do this for the last 10 years. There's a couple things that we need you to, to get up to date. While getting them up to date, they issued a temporary license, and then they issued an extension. They forgot they issued us the extension in writing, and so they fined us $1,000. I think it was like $1,170 if I remember exactly, uh, but about a $1,000 fine. For operating without an active COO that they took and gave us an extension on in writing. Uh, when we went to argue this with the city to get, uh, the fine waived, they said, oh no, the person who issued the fine doesn't work here anymore. We're gonna go ahead and just solve it in court. So yeah, we'll go to court, and guess what we're going to do? We're going to win. Uh, I put together a 200-page binder on why we're right, so yeah, I think we're gonna do just fine. Um, we've done very well in court. It's something that I think is worth mentioning though. If you go into real estate, there's a lot of legal. There's, there's documents on ownership, there's title there. If you buy enough real estate, there will be disputes. And while I do like to, you know, if you talk about every court showing I've had, I'm 27-0. While I have a great track record, I hate doing it every time. And when it's the very few times it's been against a dispute with a partner And every time I've been like disgustingly right, like, like unbelievably correct going in, it doesn't feel good. It's, it's not a fun— the litigation piece is not fun about real— with real estate. If you get big enough, even friends and family, someone will want to take a piece from you at some point. It's just part of the game.

I think too, just, um, we can even wrap up on the note. I don't know how much time we have here.

I, I think, uh, I think we pretty much got through the questions. Let's wrap up on this.

We'll wrap here.

Um, as far as the whole theme of this thing was that I have an invitation for everyone, I have a free thing for everyone.

Perfect. As far as mistakes go, everybody's made mistakes. I've made my fair share, Christian's made his fair share. You're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna lose money. I hate to tell you that in real estate eventually, especially if you're doing a loan and you don't know what you're doing. It's not going to be easy. Like Christian said, court sucks. This is my first real court showing, and it's over $100—

there's over $1,000.

And it's really like, it's not like the end of the world. Oh my gosh, it's $6,000. It's really setting a precedent, like we're gonna show up, we're gonna be there, we're gonna win. But it's like, if you're getting into this expecting to be some super passive investor, probably I don't think this is for you. It's if you're trying to really get out of your 9 to 5 and go take it by the reins and make a full-time job eventually and go for it. I would say that's it. Not even making a full-time job, to be quite honest. You can be pretty— like, eventually, but it's not going to be easy. It's simple, not easy, is what I would I would say. Kind of a long point longer.

Yeah, I know, and I absolutely agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. Okay, invitation for everyone. Let's go. Invitation for everyone. If you guys have enjoyed today's episode, appreciate that. Uh, if you guys hated it, then, you know, I appreciate that. Whatever, just hit the like button for me. Let someone else try to enjoy it next time. I appreciate that. I've got 4 likes on this, by the way, so you YouTube people, talking to you, hit the like button. Uh, I do have a free thing for you. Um, I mapped out And I spent a lot of time on this. I mapped out exactly how we found deals for free, how we are funding them for free, like we masterclass on this. And then with all the Section 8 that we're doing, I actually put in our entire Section 8 strategy, which is like 4th grade math. When I went back and looked at this, the things that we bought, funded, and used the Section 8 strategy on— and this is between me and Cody and me and Caleb, so between my core business partners and I there's been like $4 million of net worth generated just on this in 3 years. Like, I made well over $1 million a year on average doing this strategy. It's stupid easy as far as like the actual math behind it. I'm going to be sharing that on a webinar tonight. It's completely free. If you guys want to register for that, there's a link in the YouTube video. So if you're watching on Instagram, hop over to the YouTube right now. Yeah, Multifamily Strategy on YouTube. Check it out. Uh, there's a lot of webinars on there that are like a ridiculous sales pitch. This is not like one of those like, oh, and if you want to know the rest of the secrets, I'm going to share literally how I did it step by step. So if that's something that's of value to you guys, you guys want to show up, uh, register for that event. That's going to be in an hour and a half.

It's like In-N-Out secret sauce. It's obviously just a Thousand Island. He's gonna give away everything.

Hey, that's gonna be in about an hour from now, so Uh, that's 7 Central. I'll see you guys there. See ya.