Eco-Tourism and Shark Conservation with Kathy Xu of The Dorsal Effect in Singapore

And the whole idea of flying to Lombok in itself already makes me uncomfortable. Like, oh, do we really need to take another flight? Can we just— can I justify that flight? Especially if I'm bringing a group of school children, like so many people on a flight, like can I justify bringing them down? I try my best to be as sustainable about the meals as possible. So one of the things is on the Dorsal Effect trips, we don't serve seafood. But yeah, but But then with schoolchildren, sometimes they'll be like, oh, but why is there no seafood? Why is there no meat? It's the worst trip ever. I can't wait for it to be over. You know, so it's, it's just very difficult.

Hello and welcome to Rethink What Matters, the podcast dedicated to aligning the economy with the ecology and everyone for improved business performance, stronger families, and a greener, cooler planet. And today I'm joined by Kathy Shi of Dorsal Effect in Singapore. Kathy is an environment and marine advocate, sharks and ocean lover, and ecotourism business lead. And we're going to be discussing ecotourism. So ecotourism is such a big subject. Perhaps you could tell us a little bit about Dorsal Effect first.

So I run the Dorsal Effect. I basically see it as an ecotourism outfit where I provide shark fishermen in Lombok, Indonesia with an alternative source of livelihood. So basically getting them to move away from shark fishing, but paying them better when they take tourists out snorkeling on boat trips with the dorsal effect.

Okay. All right. And yeah, if you could explain a little bit more about what exactly ecotourism is, because it seems like it could be a lot of things.

Yeah, that's a huge question. Like, I ask myself that question many times as well, because I feel like ecotourism, just like most other buzzwords in today's day and age, like sustainability, like circular economy, they all seem so big and they sound so good, yet it's so hard to like advocate or it's so hard to run them the way that they should be decently carried out. But most of the time I struggle with calling myself ecotourism because what does that actually mean? Like, is it because I'm doing it for shark conservation? Is it because I'm doing it to provide an alternative livelihood for the fishermen who would otherwise not be able to make that much money? Is it that I'm doing it in a way where there's less impact on the environment? Is it that I do it in a way that I make sure that the people who come on the trips with me don't do shit like polluting the waters or eat meat on the trip?

So tell us a little bit more then about Dorsal Effect. How far do your customers come from? Are they local or do they come from across the world?

Yeah, most of the time they come from Singapore or Malaysia because I think like I'm based in Singapore, so they hear about it through my talks that I give in schools or companies or just any kind of events that are happening in Singapore itself. But because I also have a social media presence, so I do have customers who come from Australia, Europe, America, all parts. It's just not as frequent as the ones who come from Singapore or Australia. So Australia is mostly because there's a direct access from Australia to Lombok. So it's an easy way to fly in.

How did you become interested in ecotourism?

Yeah, so to go back to the roots of it, back in 2011, my brother asked if I wanted to go on a trip with him to Exmouth in Western Australia. And I said, sure, what are we going to see there? And he said, oh, we can snorkel with whale sharks. So I thought, oh, that's really cool, let's do it. And it was a really fascinating trip for me because, um, it was nice to see how they run, um, the trips in a way that they were very strict with the tourists. We— there were things we were not allowed to do. They would give us very strict briefings to tell us how far, how, how close can we swim to the whale sharks, what should we not do. Basically, they had the welfare of the wildlife in mind first. So I was really impressed with the way they were running things, and it got me to think about this whole— this whole concept of overtourism. Like, it feels like everyone is trying to run tourism in a way that's— that reaps in the most amount of profit as quickly as possible. But do we really think about the welfare of the— of the wildlife, or about the impact on the ecology and ecosystems around us when we're running the trips. And I felt like this outfit in Australia did it, and I was just really impressed with them, and I wondered if that was something that could be done for sharks in other parts of the world as well.

Okay, all right. So what impact are you seeing, you know, that the climate change is having on sharks?

Okay, so I think one very direct impact would be like the whole fishing impact, right? Like with climate change, it's very hard for the fishermen to know when they can go out, like what used to be good times for them to go out to catch fishes or sharks or whatever it is that they catch. Right now it's so unpredictable and it's very like precarious situations for fishermen. So that in itself, I hope gets the fishermen to see that, hey, you know, this is a very unstable trade. Things are not as predictable as it used to be. We're also not catching as much sharks as we would like to. This is just too hard and too dangerous and too scary. So I guess that's one aspect of it. I'm no scientist, but I've read papers about how scientists have tried to— this is, I think, in Florida, if I'm not wrong. So they were trying to determine what were some of the zones that tiger sharks were swimming in. And after determining that, they actually designated like marine protected areas in the zones that the sharks tended to be swimming in. But because of climate change and the waters warming, the sharks tended to swim away from these zones up north to colder waters. So what was initially designated as marine protected didn't work as well for the tiger sharks anymore. So I guess these are some of the impacts that climate change has on sharks.

Perhaps a part of ecotourism is just being greener in your tourist choices, in your holiday choices, in terms of your transportation or where you're going or what impact you're having when you get to your tourist destination.

Yeah, yeah, you have a point there. It's just that I think sometimes it can get a little bit complex as well. And coming back to the whole idea of marketing buzzwords, they tend to— like, companies tend to sell things that would look good or sound good to others. Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're not unfamiliar with the idea of greenwashing and bluewashing. So One thing that companies tend to do is promoting carbon credits with your flights. But the thing is, I see that as greenwashing because I think when you go on a flight, that's just too much of a carbon footprint that you're having that carbon credits just cannot justify it. And there's just so many loopholes when it comes to talking about carbon credits.

So I think we've got to be really careful with these carbon credits, haven't we? They have their place, but as you say, not in marketing. When you're giving your talks to schools and companies, what are they most interested in hearing about?

I guess it's different for both. Like for schools, because they are mostly children or students or teenagers, they tend to like to hear about the sharks, interesting facts about sharks, the ecosystems, biology, scientific facts and stuff like that. Whereas with companies, I think they're looking at— they're more interested in impact, like what is the environmental impact, what does it mean, what does ecotourism actually mean in terms of definitions, is there a way to balance profits with doing good.

What's your biggest frustration?

I get frustrated with myself. I mean, I have to start with myself first, right? I can't just criticize other companies and not talk about my own company. So for me, I find it a struggle because if people were to If people don't live in Lombok, obviously they have to fly into Lombok. And the whole idea of flying to Lombok in itself already makes me uncomfortable. Like, oh, do we really need to take another flight? Do we— can we just— can I justify that flight? Especially if I'm bringing a group of school children, like so many people on a flight, like, can I justify bringing them down? Yeah, that's just one of the things that I constantly feel so frustrated with myself about. Yeah, I think another thing is the meals that we have on the trip. I try my best to be as sustainable about the meals as possible. So one of the things is on the Dorsal Effect trips, we don't serve seafood. Yeah, I mean, of course, because we're trying to protect the sharks and sharks are part of the ecosystem. So marine life, right? It's all interlinked. But yeah, but then with school children, sometimes they'll be like, oh, but why is there no seafood? Why is there no meat? It's the worst trip ever. I can't wait for it to be over, you know, so it's, it's just very difficult.

Yeah, well, part of their education. When your customers have completed one of your trips, what would you say is their overall impression? How have they come away changed?

Of course, I hope that they go away changed. Sometimes it doesn't happen. I'm just glad that most of the time it does. So I do collect feedback. Feedback from them after the trip, especially with the school children, right? Because I spend so much more time with them. I guess the nice thing is because we do beach cleanups and trash audits as well. So one of the takeaways for them would be to think about the whole idea of single-use plastics. Like, is there a way that they can reduce the amount of single-use plastics in their life?

Right.

Yeah. With the no seafood policy, is this something that they can incorporate into their lifestyle as well? I get it, you know, on day 1, day 2, they might complain about it. But because we do nightly lectures with them about marine conservation and the whole problem behind eating seafood, sometimes they do go away thinking about it, like, oh yeah, maybe there is something wrong with eating seafood. Maybe I should change the way I make my dietary choices.

Changing people's behaviors and the way that they think is really key. So shark conservation, is that a subject which is growing in popularity, if you like? Is it a subject which more and more people are looking at?

I guess I have been in it for so long that I don't really know if people are talking about it as much as they would like to. I know back in 2011 when I first started on this journey, a lot of people were very interested in the whole campaign of saying no to shark fin soup. So that was quite a thing. But I guess over time on this journey, I also started to see that It's a lot more complex than that. Just because people are saying no to shark fin soup, it doesn't mean that they're not eating sharks anymore. Because if you say no to a part of the shark, the fish, you have to do something down the supply chain as well. You have to not just provide alternative livelihood, but maybe even talk about fishermen still using the same gear. Is there a way you can change their gear and get them to see that, you know, catching or doing something else would also yield them the same kind of profits. So it's just such a wicked problem that is, yeah, it's difficult to wrap our heads around. But I think one of the things about the whole Say No to Shark Fin Soup campaign for me was that I felt it was a little bit too simplistic. While it was sexy during the time, but it also sounded a bit simplistic. There's so many more layers to the issue itself. And I think after having journeyed the last 10 years as a shark conservationist, I feel like it's not just about the sharks, right? It's about everything in in the oceans. If we manage to so-called save the sharks but we don't save everything else in the ocean, that's not a very pretty ocean either.

And so what are the threats to sharks then? Is it fishing or are there other threats? What's driving the shark conservation movement?

Yeah, so I think overfishing is still a problem, although I don't think it's limited to just sharks. As I said, I think that's a big problem with overfishing. The ocean as a whole. Like we're just taking more than we should be taking. And yeah, one of the things that I see also is that fishermen, not just in Lombok, but just around everywhere, especially in Southeast Asia, fishermen are not paid properly enough. So if you don't pay them well and seafood is not expensive, they're just going to want to try to take more and more and more. But over time, they also realize that, hey, the oceans are depleting. It's harder and harder for me to get more fish. So what do I do? So there's that increased sense of desperation as well.

We don't need a lot of shark here in the UK. Is shark meat, you know, is that part of a lot of people's diet there?

Yeah, I think the thing about, at least in Singapore, is that we do eat shark meat, but there are no proper labels or transparency in terms of what we're eating. So let's say you're eating shark meat. You would think it's fish because most people just associate it as, oh, this tastes like fish, so it's fish. But it could be shark meat and people are none the wiser in that sense. So I think proper labeling is something that needs to happen.

And are sharks reared in farms as well?

So sharks, stingrays, octopuses, yeah, most species of marine life, it's— you just can't harvest them like they— for various reasons. One of it could be that you just don't have enough space. For certain species of sharks. They, uh, another, another thing could be survivability. They can't really live in small spaces that well, or you can't have the conditions that are right for them. Another reason could be their fertility rate. They don't, they just don't give birth to enough young quickly enough, so there's no way to farm them properly, right? Although it doesn't happen for all species, but, um, yeah, it, it's We just don't have enough species-level information of all the sharks to know for sure what can be farmed, what cannot be farmed.

I mean, I don't want to farm them. I'm just wondering. Protecting marine wildlife is really important, isn't it? Because I think if the oceans fail, if marine life fails, then, you know, the rest of the planet fails with it. So, and so what keeps you, what keeps driving you forward then, Kathy, with ecotourism and shark conservation?

Friendship. It's the tribe. I think over the last few years, I've come to appreciate having a tribe of people who are like-minded and who also see things the same way and understand the importance of the oceans. So just having that support has been very, very, very fulfilling for me, and it keeps me going. Yeah.

Okay. Can you share any other stories with us about ecotourism or shark conservation?

Yeah, so for one, ecotourism is something that I increasingly am struggling with. Like, I feel like there's just too much greenwashing happening around the idea of tourism. Everybody wants to travel. The pace of the world is getting faster and faster and faster that it scares me. I don't even know if ecotourism could be an answer anymore. But on the flip side, when it comes to shark conservation, because I've been also working on some projects with very good people in Singapore, Yeah, I won't go into the details about the projects, but just being able to be more involved in shark sciences and using science as a way to promote conservation, that's something that I, I don't know, I find it a little bit more hopeful. Although I don't know if we're running out of time too.

Yeah. And do you get any support from the government with it? With your, is there much investment from the government in shark conservation?

Yeah, not so much financially, but we do, we do like engage with the government and they are on board with the whole idea of shark and stingray conservation. I guess it's an ongoing conversation that we have. Yeah.

Okay, so you do the tours, but you also mentioned beach cleanups. So what other sort of projects or initiatives are you involved with?

So the beach cleanups are just a part of the trip as well, like the meals, the beach cleanups, getting the fishermen's wives to cook vegetarian meals for the school students. That's all part of the package. But as you were mentioning about shark conservation, I also do work at the fishery ports in Singapore. So we do have two fishery ports, Sinoko and Jurong Fishery Port in Singapore, where we import seafood, general seafood. But through my friend who is the principal investigator of this project, her name is Naomi Clark-Shinn. She's a shark scientist in Singapore and we're trying to— We're doing work at the fishery ports in terms of trying to find out what kind of species of sharks and stingrays are we importing into Singapore, and is there any threat on certain species over the years. So that's a long-term study that we're working on. Like, in Singapore, we import seafood. Uh, we don't really catch so much seafood around our waters. They're mostly imported from the region, so like Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia. So we're trying to see what kind of species are we importing. Is there an increasing trend? Are these species becoming extinct over time. These are some of the things that we're looking at. Yeah. Is there a way that we can work with the region to perhaps advance conservation aims, not just within Singapore, but in the region as well?

Yeah. You know, I just, I think ecotourism is, as you say, such a big subject, isn't it? Because I think everything we do when we go on holiday, you know, is impacting on the environment, isn't it? It's how we travel, it's what we eat when we get there, it's how we It's how we interact with the local communities. It's kind of everything we do at home but abroad, if we've gone abroad. So they're trying to do that in a green way, in an eco-friendly way, I guess is one way of looking at it. But then there are specific things we can do, as you say, like shark conservation, supporting organizations that are doing something specific to help with marine life, which I think is what you're doing with your shark conservation.

Even the idea of slow travel, I don't know if that's something that could become popular, like just getting people to see that you can travel slowly. If there's a way to get to another land in a slower way without having to fly, can we do it instead? Yeah, just appreciating every day and every little step of that, of the idea of travel rather than, oh, everything has to be fast. I only have 2 weeks. Let's quickly see as much as we can.

I think that's a great point, isn't it? I mean, in a way, we've reduced the whole world into some great big theme park. You know, you want to get there, walk around in a couple of days, see it, and then go home and carry on with where we were. So I like the idea of slow travel.

I've been thinking about it quite a bit during the pandemic, like when everyone had to slow down. That was great for me. And I felt like, hey, finally the world is slowing down as it should. But then now it feels like we're going back to the pace that we were just before the pandemic again.

I had exactly the same experience, you know. Um, people had the time to talk to each other. You know, we were great queuers in the UK and we didn't mind queuing up and having a chat and talking to people. When I was buying a cup of coffee outside and, uh, you know, speaking to the, to the vendor of the coffee, and he said, yeah, you know, people are more relaxed. I said to him, we're all going to miss this, aren't we? He goes, yeah, we are. It was, it was, it was just that we'd all slowed down. We were all enjoying it. So we need to start the slow movement. That's what we need to do.

I totally agree. I'm behind you on this, Paul. Well, another thing that I've been thinking about also is I see how science can be very, very impactful and helpful for policies and almost everything that we do. So I'm wondering if science can be a big part of ecotourism as well. Instead of making big claims, that, you know, we are taking care of the environment or that we're taking care of the wildlife. How about showing it to us through science? Because I just got my master's in science communication. So I was thinking, can we use science to back up tourism as well? My thesis was basically on how to communicate the consumption of sambal stingray. So in Singapore, there's this very popular dish called sambal stingray. So we eat a lot of stingrays in this dish. So in my thesis, I was trying to find out what would get people to eat less of sambal stingray or shift their consumption habits when it comes to eating the dish itself.

Do you think science can help us here then in solving the problems of marine conservation and ecotourism?

I actually, I strongly think that science can help us. It's just that, yeah, so to me, I think that the biggest link needs to be between communicating sciences from the academic point of view to the masses, all of us.

Yeah, I think the part of ecotourism is just the exchanging of ideas, is this cultural exchange that tourism drives and helping people to understand different cultures. And that can probably help to drive the right behaviors in terms of looking after the climate and, yeah, again, marine conservation and conservation in general.

And that's a good point that you've brought up too, because it also links back to slow Slow traveling too, right? Like if you travel slowly, you get to know the community rather than just looking at it as an observer. You get to know the wildlife. You might even get to know the names of— let's say you go to an area and you're swimming with the whale sharks every day. You might get so used to swimming with the whale sharks that you actually identify the different personalities of the different whale sharks that you see. And I think that's priceless.

Is tourism a big industry in Singapore?

Oh, it's huge. It's one of the— yeah. It's like Singapore is such a melting pot of so many cultures. We depend so much on tourism for our economy and our economic growth. So I think that's something that we can't run away from, sadly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And do you think that tourism can impact negatively on the identity of, I don't know, a country or a population or a village? Because of all that tourism?

I don't know. I think it really depends on the people who are traveling, right? Like tourism on its own, it doesn't have a personality, but it's the people who come into the different countries and what kind of mindset are they bringing with them. So I think it's also important that we think about narratives and languages. How do we speak about certain things? If we're talking about tourism, how can we speak about tourism such that getting to know the cultures and and getting to know what is happening in the country on a deeper level is also a big part of traveling.

So it's been fantastic to speak with you, Kathy, on this podcast all about ecotourism and shark conservation. Thanks very much for sharing your time.

Thanks for having me too, Paul. I had fun. Thank you.