Green Hydrogen’s Role in Decarbonization with Lewis Farrar, Ricardo Energy and Environment

People always say hydrogen is 30 years away and always will be, but I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it's just people seem to think it's always something of the future when actually we have all the technologies now. Everything is in place for it to happen now. We just need to get some big projects out there on the ground and yeah, people can see, people can get experience using it, build up a supply chain, get the right people to get trained up to use hydrogen safely. And yeah, I think that's sort of a bit frustrating. People just keep talking about pilot develop projects or innovation or innovation funding. It's more just time to get some, some big projects out there.

Hello and welcome to Rethink What Matters, the podcast dedicated to aligning the economy with the ecology and everyone for improved business performance, stronger families, and a greener, cooler Planet. And today I'm joined by Lewis Farrah of Ricardo Energy and Environment, and we're going to be discussing green hydrogen.

Hi, thanks for having me on the program.

You know, it's a green, green hydrogen. It's often seen as expensive. Perhaps hard to store maybe and transport. And people are unsure whether or not it's going to be the next big thing, or is it just going to be a passing phase? Perhaps we're going to start off a little bit with Ricardo Energy.

Sure, of course. So Ricardo is an engineering consultancy firm, and we work on behalf of both public and private sector clients. And this is all with a vision to help decarbonize by providing guidance, to these clients as to how best they can go around their decarbonization journey. So this might be by providing net-zero strategies or supporting with policy or working with a particular industry, setting out a roadmap for decarbonizing, how much this will cost them, how much, what time frames this will happen, and sort of different options that are available to our clients.

Okay, all right. So what is green hydrogen?

Sure, so hydrogen is an alternative fuel. Some people say it's a silver bullet to our climate change, some people think it's less favorable, but essentially it's a clean fuel that can be used in our industry or in transport or in energy storage as a means to decarbonization. And the green hydrogen is produced by what's known as electrolysis, which is splitting of water into its constituent elements, so hydrogen and oxygen, using green electricity, which could be from wind or solar or other green electricity methods. And yeah, this fuel can be used, can be combusted, it can be used in a fuel cell, in other applications.

Okay, so it seems like the only thing we need for this then is wind, water, and sun.

Yeah, you'd, uh, you'd think so. Yeah, I think one of the, the sort of drawbacks also has been the, the cost, the supply chain, uh, the sort of catch-22 scenario where supply and demand need to meet each other. It's also got a lot of positive attributes in terms of being able to be used for a variety of different uses, so for transport, for industry, for energy storage, a lot of different use cases for it.

But if all, if all we need is wind, water, and sun, and there are no downsides, there's no pollution created, is there? I think it's just water.

That's correct, yeah, just, just water is produced.

So what's the problem? This sounds like too good to be true.

Well, it's expensive. So if you have a wind farm, and then you have electricity that then goes to electrolyzer, which then splits the water into hydrogen, oxygen, and then you've got to store the hydrogen somewhere. It's quite difficult to store because it's a smaller atom than other typical fuels. And then you got to transport it where it's produced to wherever it's used. So this comes with a sort of array of challenges for us to overcome and bring the costs down and bring it more competitive with our, the fuels that we're most used to, I suppose.

We could have a future that is powered by green hydrogen. It just seems like the perfect answer to all of our problems.

Yeah, on paper, definitely. But yeah, if we address these challenges, it can become part of what referred to as a hydrogen economy, where, you know, transport, we fill up our cars with hydrogen, or, um, or yeah, we heat our homes with hydrogen, for example. Um, so it's got a lot of, a lot of use cases. Um, and yeah, I think over the coming years, some sort of innovation and projects are coming along. It should be, um, competitive with other fuels. But also remember, we have other decarbonization solutions such as electric vehicles. So you have playoff between electric vehicles and hydrogen, or you have heat pumps versus hydrogen boilers, or we have these different sort of competition between different resources.

Okay, okay. So is green hydrogen a good way to store energy then? Because I think storage is another one of the answers we're all looking for, isn't it? You know, when, when the wind isn't blowing and the sun's not out, we want to be storing the energy for those times. So would green hydrogen be a solution for that?

Yeah, of course. So hydrogen can be used. So you've got wind, wind, and often the wind, when the wind blows, doesn't line up with when the, when the electricity is most in demand. And the same with solar power, for example. So one way of energy storage is to use the electricity when it's produced. So a wind farm, for example, and then use this electricity to make hydrogen, and then you can store it for long periods of time. You can store it underground, or you can store it in big sort of containers. And then when the hydrogen is needed, then you can use it and sort of use that long-term energy storage to match electricity, the fuel consumption, or energy demand with when it's required. So it's definitely one of the, the big advantages. But then, of course, is this in competition with electric battery storage and hydro storage, for example? So I think in the future we'll see a sort of mixture of different solutions to our storage needs. I think at the moment hydrogen's mainly— most use cases is sort of transport, where people sort of realize hydrogen will be used, maybe for heavy goods vehicles, for buses, for shipping, maybe in aviation as well. That's sort of the thing that comes to mind as the obvious solution. And also in industry, so for high temperature processes, whether that's glass, whether it's distilleries, for example, or these sort of high-temperature processes which need, um, yeah, these, these temperatures which you can't reach with other decarbonization options.

Right, okay. And I remember reading somewhere that, you know, we can't— the 21st century won't be able to survive without cement, plastics, ammonia for fertilizers, or steel production. So would green hydrogen help in those four cases?

Yeah, of course. So I think the the— some analysts or forecasts suggest that hydrogen is best used in these sort of chemical feedstocks. You mentioned ammonia there, for example. So I think most hydrogen today is produced via gray hydrogen, which is where you produce it from natural gas, from fossil fuels, through a reaction, and you get your hydrogen. And then this is used as a feedstock in refineries, in ammonia production, and other sort of chemical processes. So if we swap this out for hydrogen that's produced green, then that's going to go a long way to decarbonize these industries. So yeah, totally agree with you there.

Can you just explain the difference between the different types of hydrogens? Because there's green, blue, and gray, I think.

Yeah, of course. So the main three are gray, as I mentioned, blue, and green. So gray hydrogen is referred to hydrogen that is produced using fossil fuels. And yeah, as I said, it goes through a reaction to produce, with the methane, to then produce hydrogen. And this is obviously not a decarbonization option. This is definitely the route which is most used today. I think it's over 90% perhaps of hydrogen produced today is via gray hydrogen. Then blue hydrogen is decarbonized method, but also uses fossil fuels. So it's where you take natural gas and you, uh, a reaction called steam methane reforming. There are different reactions such as autothermal reforming or partial gas oxidation, and this produces a mixture of carbon dioxide and hydrogen. And then to— then you add on a carbon capture element to the process, and this captures the carbon dioxide and then you can take that and you can use it for other use cases as long as it's sort of stored permanently, or it can be stored permanently underground, and therefore it can be coined as, um, sort of carbon neutral. And then green hydrogen is the one which I mentioned before from, from renewable electricity. And you can also have hydrogen produced as various different colors. You have it produced by nuclear power, for example, or from bioenergy. See different, which is known as biohydrogen or biogenic hydrogen. And these are sort of different pathways to produce, to produce hydrogen.

Right. But green hydrogen, hydrogen produced by electrolysis, that's what everybody's thinking of as the future. Is that right?

Yeah, I think everyone thinks sort of a mixture between both green and blue. I think in the UK, as a goal for 10 gigawatts of hydrogen, By 2030, at least half of this will be green hydrogen. So sort of mixture between both. Advantage of blue hydrogen is sort of reuses our existing knowledge with oil and gas expertise, and we can produce large volumes of blue hydrogen using fossil fuels. So I think it'd be a mixture of, a mixture of both.

Okay. Okay. And what are they looking at trying to make the electrolysis process more efficient? and so less expensive.

Is that possible? Yeah, of course. I think typical electrolysis is about 50 to 70% efficient. And of course, through the whole hydrogen sort of production process, we're looking at green hydrogen, every step of the way, there's going to be some losses. So you've got— so it goes through the electrolysis, then you lose some energy. And then when you go to the storage and the transportation, and then when you use it in the final case, whether that's in a fuel cell or in a boiler, for example, then it's going to lose some more useful energy. So every step we have this term known as the round trip efficiency, which is sort of the overall efficiency from, from, well, the tank, so from, from the production all the way through to its use case. And, and yeah, this is, this is one of the sort of downsides of hydrogen is by the end of the process here, your efficiency is quite, can be quite low. And therefore, so one of the challenges is to improve the sort of reduce the energy losses at each of these steps. And so yeah, this is sort of one of the innovation aspects that people are looking at.

So there's real competition, I think, between these renewable energies and different ways of storing this energy as well.

Yeah, that's correct.

So I know that Elon Musk thinks that it's a very expensive way, I think, of producing electricity, you know, compared to batteries. So what is the, the competition like between green hydrogen and, and batteries? How is that looking?

Uh, well, I think most progress to date has definitely been on the batteries electrification front, uh, with electric vehicles, battery energy storage, something that we hear a lot about in the media, as you mentioned, with Elon Musk, Tesla, a lot of these companies. But I think there's a role for both, particularly for heavy goods vehicle transports, these high, high load transport options where you've got heavy goods vehicles that are traveling across countries, or long-distance buses, or refuse collection vehicles, for example, where they've got this sort of peaky high loads. Another use case for hydrogen could be non-road mobile machinery. So on construction sites, for example, where you've got very peaky loads and demands which can't always be met by, by electrification. So yes, these are sort of some of the use cases where hydrogen will fit in. I think definitely in the short term we'll see a lot more electrification in terms of batteries for passenger transport. There might be a little bit of hydrogen, but I think mostly it will be, um, on the realms of electrification.

Um, yeah, I guess it's the application to a certain extent that also defines which, which, um, which energy is most, uh, most suitable, you know.

Yeah, correct. Yeah, so obviously batteries are quite heavy, yeah, they take a long time to charge. Um, there's also some concerns about the materials that are used that come from, you know, mined, they're a finite resource to come from sort of some countries where they're exploiting resources. But I guess there'll be improvements in the battery technology as well, recycling the components to make it more circular economy. And yeah, of course hydrogen is going to improve over time in terms of the costs and the supply chain, the skills. And yeah, once you sort of get, get more projects in the ground, then I think it'll sort of kick off. But as I said, it's sort of in competition. I think a lot of this is just competition and competition between hydrogen electrification but also between hydrogen and heat pumps, for example, in terms of heating applications, or versus bioenergy. So sort of, there's not just one solution for our challenges but a mixture. And I think the sort of key message really is that hydrogen is one of these solutions, but it's sort of one of our weapons or tools that we can use rather than a solution for all our needs. I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. Some people might say that, but I think it's more of a balanced approach.

So can green hydrogen be produced in like small quantities locally, or is it always something which has to be done on a large scale somewhere central?

Yeah, it can be done small scales. You might have, you might, you might own an industrial site in a rural area, and you've got some access to a wind farm or wind turbine or some rooftop solar PV, which has high, which experiences high levels of curtailment, and you could use that to produce small amounts of hydrogen and then use it when you need to. But on the whole, I think it's going to be sort of these large-scale multi-megawatt, gigawatt projects, um, which produce hydrogen in large quantities, and then they offtake it to various users. So it might be through pipeline, it might be through what we call tube trailers. This is a way in which you transport hydrogen by road. or might be injected into the natural gas grid or dedicated pipelines. So sort of, yeah, different ways in which it can be offtaken to different users. I think sort of centralized or hub approach, um, where you have lots of hydrogen produced in one place and then taken off to various users is, is, um, sort of the future, I'd say.

So combining it with natural gas is another way forward, I believe.

Yeah, so there's some components for blending, blending hydrogen into natural gas grids. And the UK government's going to make a decision on that later this year. Sort of early thoughts are that up to 20% by volume into natural gas grids is achievable without any sort of major changes. And that's sort of the same with most current boiler technologies. They can take up to 20% by volume hydrogen. And this sort of injecting into the gas grid is sort of one way to stimulate the production of hydrogen, sort of create a a market for producing hydrogen and then selling it to the natural gas grid. But one thing to note that 20% by volume is only 6 or 7% by decarbonization, just owing to the fact that hydrogen's got a lot, a lot lower volumetric energy density than natural gas. So 20%, you might think 20% by volume is 20% by decarbonization, but it's actually only 6 or 7%. So that's one thing to bear in mind there.

So that means you've got to put, you know, 3 times much, you've got to put 3 times more down the pipe as well.

Yeah, that's correct. And yeah, lots of the pipework for the, some, some places they're on about talking about repurposing the gas grid to, to go up to higher volumes of hydrogen. But I think sort of in the short term or in the next decade, I think up to 20% will be the, will be the sort of threshold. I think there's other countries where it's slightly higher, but in the UK, up to 20%. But yeah, as I said, sort of, this creates a, stimulates a sort of source of demand for hydrogen and more production projects.

Does it help us with the agriculture then, green hydrogen, in helping to be more regenerative in the way that we farm?

Well, so as you mentioned earlier, you mentioned about ammonia, and listeners might not know, but ammonia is one of the main sort of ingredients for producing fertilizers. And if you can swap out the— so ammonia is made by the Haber process with nitrogen and hydrogen combined to make ammonia, NH3. And so obviously one of the biggest things there is the hydrogen, and a lot of that at the moment comes from fossil fuels, derives hydrogen. And if you can swap that out for green hydrogen, which has got zero or next to zero carbon emissions, and then yeah, then we can use that to make fertilizer, then that's that can be, that can be a useful, useful use case for, for hydrogen, definitely.

Okay, great. And so we've got, we've really, you know, it's really, it seems to have an answer to all of our problems, whether that's in industry, transportation, energy. And so the downsides are what we've mentioned, that it's cost, it's the difficulty of storage, it's the difficulty of transportation. It's the fact that it doesn't contain a lot of energy, does it? I think. You know, I think if all we need is wind, water, and sun, you know, to power ourselves, we'll probably find a way around that, won't we?

Yeah, I think the challenges are, you know, they're achievable. I think one other thing to mention is about the safety aspects. I guess hydrogen has sort of different properties than natural gas in terms of the safety aspects. It's got a sort of a more propensity for safety. But I think the UK has got a strong track record in using hydrogen safely across various industries, whether that's chemical industry for feedstocks, for example. And there's set guidelines out there for any, any industry who wants to use hydrogen to go about it safely. So I think it's got this sort of hype or some risk associated with it. But I think this can definitely be managed carefully. And there's definitely guidelines out there for that. So I don't think that is a major challenge, really.

What's your biggest frustration? Would you say that, you know, working in that, in the industry, for as long as you have to.

Yeah, so I think probably we've seen a lot of innovation aspects, a lot of sort of small pilot-scale projects, a lot of talk about hydrogen, a lot of roadmaps and this. But I think it's about time, it's now to start getting some big projects out there, some big ones to showcase hydrogen can be useful, useful in different cases that I've mentioned, rather than just always just seems to be people always say hydrogen is 30 years away and always will be. But I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it's just people seem to think it's always something in the future when actually we have all the technologies now. Everything is in place for it to happen now. We just need to get some big projects out there on the ground. And yeah, people can see, people can get experience using it, build up a supply chain, get the right people to get trained up to use hydrogen safely. And yeah, I think that's sort of a bit frustrating. People just keep talking about pilot projects or innovation or innovation funding. It's more just time to get some some big projects out there.

Are there any projects out there we can talk about or look at? Are there any case studies?

Yes, I think a lot of the, the new ScotWind leasing round they have for wind, offshore wind in Scotland, a lot of these developers are considering green hydrogen as a production route. So a lot of blue hydrogen projects in development in England, you've got Hynet, and also in Scotland, you've got Acorn, these sort of projects coming along. One use case I've been looking at recently is the case for distilleries. So there's a thing called the Green Distilleries Innovation Fund, and some distilleries which are now going down the route of hydrogen to meet their process needs, whether that's on-site production of hydrogen or third-party supply. So the sort of hub approach where hydrogen is produced centrally and then taken to several off-takers, which could be distilleries, and then used that way. So there's some, our projects coming along, um, for these, for these use cases.

It sounds like we might need to go to sort of gray or blue hydrogen first before green, then it needs to be a process because, because the green hydrogen is going to be too difficult to expect.

Yeah, so definitely a lot of developers are struggling to get a secure and reliable supply of hydrogen at the moment. So in the short term, I think definitely blue hydrogen has its role to play, is perhaps a bridging solution before we have more before more green hydrogen out there. But yeah, I think any movement in the right direction is a good, good solution.

Once somebody is up and running with blue hydrogen, for example, is it just a natural next step to go to green hydrogen? It's just a question of expense.

Yeah, it's just, just so even though they've got different colors, it might sound like the actual component of the hydrogen is different, but it's identical, just the way in which it's produced that differs. So anyone who's using blue hydrogen or gray hydrogen or whatever, They can easily swap from one color to the other with no, no difference, no inherent difference to the way in which the fuel interacts or combusts.

Yeah, I guess they'd be blended as well, wouldn't they? Presumably you could say that.

Yeah, you can blend it with, if you've got a boiler, for example, it can run on a blend of a certain percentage of hydrogen with natural gas or biogas. And then as your, as the technology matures or availability of the fuel increases, and you can sort of switch in favor of, uh, in favor of the low-carbon fuels, which I think, yeah, it's a good sort of way to transition from, from one to the other, not just stop one and then start something else. You can, you can transition over a period of time.

But would they blend, for example, green and blue hydrogen?

Yeah, you could. Yeah, there's no, no reason why you couldn't. But I think most cases you'd probably concentrate on one rather than the other. Um, I think, um, would be my opinion. Um, But yeah, you could— there's no reason why you couldn't, um, why you couldn't blend the two. They're both identical, just different way in which they're— which they are, um, produced.

You sort of sell it then as 20% green, don't you?

And then yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah. And blue is— even though it's called blue, it is still green in a sense that it's got still a zero carbon option. So as well, assuming that there's no methane leakages upstream. So that's one concern with blue hydrogen is upstream when you get the natural gas in the first place, the feedstock, whether there's any methane leakages or not into the atmosphere. But assuming there's no methane leakages and you get a near, a near 100% carbon dioxide capture rate, then yeah, it is a zero carbon option. So yeah, in terms of policy, most people, most countries look at them both in the same light, so not favoring one over the other.

Right. And maybe the government will come in and sort of provide some subsidies to, you know, to encourage use of hydrogen, green hydrogen?

Yeah, perhaps. Definitely, I think it would be written into existing policies in a way to incentivize people to, to use it. Um, yeah, definitely think that sort of encouragement will go a long way and sort of incentivize this industry to keep, to get going and to sort of, yeah, get our track record, get our sort of momentum.

Is there a surplus of green hydrogen anywhere where it could be perhaps exported to other countries?

Well, I think certain countries which have a, which have a strong sort of appetite for producing hydrogen, um, where they've got a lot of offshore wind resource, for example, or a lot of, um, solar resource, they could perhaps use the excess which they don't use in terms of electrification or hydrogen, then export it to other countries where there's more demand. Um, so one case could be, for example, Scotland has a lot of offshore wind a very constrained electricity network. And so if you produce the excess hydrogen and you could sell it perhaps in Germany where there's a lot of appetite for using hydrogen, I think there's definitely— maybe there's some other cases across the world, not 100% aware of those, but definitely Scotland to Germany is one that is being mentioned.

Is there liquid hydrogen?

There is liquid hydrogen. There's different ways in which you can store, which you can transport hydrogen. Either in a gaseous form or in a liquid form.

Um, yeah, and if it's in liquid form, is it very cold?

Yeah, it's cold. Um, it's also another one where you can combine the hydrogen to, I think they call it liquid organic hydrogen carrier, LOHC, which is where you can sort of, yeah, combine the hydrogen to another compound, uh, as a means of transportation. And then when you need to use it, you release the hydrogen from this organic compound as a different way. So yeah, it's called LOHC. Okay.

And that would presumably require quite a lot of energy though to keep it.

Yeah, a lot of energy to produce the, to combine the hydrogen with the organic material and to release it again. So I'm sure there's sort of cost-benefit analysis as to whether it's better or worse than the gaseous form or pure liquid form. Right.

And how is green hydrogen used to create synthetic fuels? I think it's e-gasoline and e-methanol.

Yeah, so you have these, um, sort of, for example, synthetic aviation fuels. So, um, I think that's one thing we have not touched on is aviation. So in terms of the synthetic fuels, you can combine hydrogen, which you produce by electrolysis, and then combine it with carbon dioxide or carbon compounds, then produce your synthetic fuels, which then combust in an engine. So I think Formula 1, for example, there, they want to decarbonize, and they're not going to go down the electrification route. So that's one way they're going to try and do it, is via the synthetic, synthetic fuels. I think it's still very early stages. Um, uh, it's all about the sort of supply of carbon dioxide that you can use to make synthetic fuels and hydrogen as well. And you've got to consider the, the competition between hydrogen use for, for transport or for the synthetic fuels or for making ammonia. So it's all this sort of trade-offs you've got to think about playing off against each other.

Yeah. Shipping in the same way then?

Shipping, yeah. I think that's an important sector for hydrogen, especially in the, yeah, in the shipping sector. And as ammonia as well, storing it as ammonia, using it as ammonia. Yeah, shipping is definitely a big, big key sector. I don't think, my opinion, I don't think electrification will do this heavy, heavy goods transport by shipping. So I think hydrogen definitely going to fit in, fit in that sector. Yeah.

So we've talked about aviation, steel, I think we've mentioned as well, because it takes a lot of, a lot of heat to create steel.

Yeah. So anything, any, any high process temperature sector, whether that's glass, paper, steel, any of these high temperature processes where it's difficult to do it first, where you need, where you need steam, or you need direct combustion of a flame, um, to produce a flame. Um, these are sectors where hydrogen can come, can come into, into fruition.

Right, great. And refineries too, so helping to— the oil companies are investing in green hydrogen then to help them with their own footprint.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, they're trying to repurpose their assets. The same with the gas network operators. They want to repurpose their assets for the sort of green economy, and hydrogen is a route that the fossil fuel industry can keep alive. But we're going to be mindful that they're not just lobbying to produce hydrogen for the sake of keeping their assets going, but for the cases of the environment and for actual green credentials rather than for any form of greenwashing, I suppose. Yep.

Yep. What's your personal view then, Lewis, on the future of green hydrogen?

Yes, I think as we've mentioned, the key takeaway really is that a lot of people see it as the answer to all of our challenges. But I think we've got to be realistic and say we've got a variety of different tools at our disposal, whether that's electrification, bioenergy, hydrogen, whatever. and therefore it's just picking the right solution to fit the right, the right challenge, I suppose. So yeah, it's taking into consideration all the pros and cons, the cost. I think hydrogen will be, some people don't like hydrogen at all. I think it's a waste of time, but I think it has a role to play in amongst these other solutions. And we'll see a hybrid scenario where some buses are on hydrogen, some are on electrification. Some industries are on electrification, some of them are hydrogen. I think it's just going to be not a one-size-fits-all, not one-size-fits-all, but yeah, a more varied and balanced approach.

How certain can you be when you're providing a quote on this technology today?

So yeah, one of the difficulties with hydrogen is just the uncertainty. So for example, if we're doing a net-zero roadmap for a client, we may suggest different pathways to decarbonize and in there we'll include hydrogen as an option in amongst our heat pumps or electrification or bioenergy approach. And for the aforementioned technologies, we can easily give the numbers, the time frames, the costs, this sort of thing. When it comes to hydrogen, we have a bit more uncertainty as to what figures we can provide, whether that's in terms of the availability— can they actually get hold of a secure supply of hydrogen, how much it's going to cost for the equipment, how much it's going to cost for the storage, how much it's going to cost for the, for the distribution. So it's quite a challenge to give them concrete numbers with any certainty of confidence. I think that's where people are more inclined to go with the other solutions because it gives them more certainty, more security for the long term than hydrogen can provide at the moment. But we may see over time this may change. Hydrogen may be the one where we can give for the most certainty. I don't know, just remains to be seen.

It's really about supply then. There's just not enough green hydrogen about to be able to, you know, provide a solution and know that it's actually going to be there when you come to deliver.

Yeah, there's not enough. This is a common theme that we get from our experiences in the sector is that there's just not really enough to go around. It's in competition. People want it, but when they try and set up a project or to try and just can't get hold of it. Right. So it's a real challenge. There's not really enough of it about. So that's where it goes back to my point about really more big projects, more producing hydrogen, finding off-takers. And a lot of policy is going that way. So we have the Net Zero Hydrogen Fund, for example, hydrogen production business model, these different sort of incentives that are coming out by the UK government to sort of drive this sector forward.

So that's good. It's good to know that there is investment, there are incentives there, but it doesn't sound like the government is investing specifically in building sort of green hydrogen installations like they might with nuclear, for example?

Yeah, so they're sort of expecting the industry to develop on its own accord with the government support. Yeah, so they are on about these hydrogen allocation rounds for various projects, which are coming. I think this is the first leasing rounds have been this year. So yeah, I think this is going to happen. Just a matter of time. I think it's just a bit disappointing that 2023 and we haven't got any significant hydrogen on the ground in the UK. But hopefully we can catch up, make up for sort of lost time and, yeah, get there.

It's been a great, great discussion with you. Thank you very much, Lewis, on helping us to understand green hydrogen, how it's made and how it can be used and how it's going to help us move towards a more sustainable regenerative, hopefully, 21st century. Thanks very much, Lewis.

Perfect. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.