S6:E4 - Bearing the Weight of Expectations with Anna McLean

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Anna McClain. She is a therapist. She's a mental health practitioner in a community just down the road from us. And I met Anna for the first time. I had actually heard her name before, but I got to meet her for the first time when we hosted a very cool event called Therapy Connect, where we invited 9 mental health practitioners from kind of regionally located close to our community. And they all offer mental health virtually. So we hosted, and in the show notes we'll link to our local mental health coalition page so you could kind of see, because these videos, by the way, are good resources for anybody. We've brought in a number of practitioners. The most recent video that you'll see in this list is this Therapy Connect where we did this panel discussion. Anna was one of the therapists that joined us, and I don't know if this happens to you guys, it happens to me all the time, I really fall in love with people hard and fast. And with Anna, it was very much like she just has this warmth and also like, it's not mischief exactly that I see on her face, but there's just this relatability and accessibility in her face that right away I'm like, "Ooh, I wanna be your friend." And I think I literally said something to that effect right when I met her. And I knew that I wanted to invite her here because at that event we had a quick conversation about just The weight of expectations, specifically what expectations on girls, on athletes, on high achievers, on people, on women in small communities, and just what does it look like to actually create boundaries? What does it actually look like to hold yourself and kind of not, you know, not necessarily succumb to the weight of other people's expectations? And so I knew that this was gonna be a fantastic conversation, and it was. So buckle up for our first kind of dive into the therapeutic side, the personal development side. This work is really important to me because again, every single one of you is just a human and these are things that we struggle with as humans. So enjoy this conversation with Anna McLean. Well, hey Anna, welcome to the show, my friend.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

It was a delight to see you walk through our front door today.

This place is incredible. Oh, it is. It's— it didn't look like this when you bought it.

It didn't. No.

Was it a hole in the wall?

You know, were you in here ever? Did you ever come over here kind of before? So for people's, uh, understanding, you're like, what is— Edgeley's like 50-ish miles away, about.

Yep.

You're a town hop over. That's, you know, that's rural for you. But, uh, so what it was prior to us buying it, so like way back in the day, it was my grandparents'. They ran a Ben Franklin store from this building when I was a little kid.

It's like a hardware store?

Uh, so you're not familiar with Ben Franklin's? Oh, Anna, that sounded very shamey. I'm not shaming you. It just makes me sad for you. So Ben Franklin was, um, it would've been under the umbrella of a variety store. Okay. Would be, I think, what they, what they kind of branded themselves. But it also was like Ben Franklin Crafts. So my, like, they bought the building in 1980. The same year I was born, and then ran it as a Ben Franklin for, uh, 16 years. So like all the way through my high school, like me being in high school. Yeah. Right. And my mom ran the craft department and then they had a beautiful fabric department upstairs in the mezzanine area. Like it really was an amazing store.

It was like a dream as a kid.

Oh, it was for your mom to run a craft section.

Like whole.

Yeah. And my mom, and she also like, she was just a DIY crafting queen. Like truly it was, it's kind of fun because like Pinterest has made a huge resurgence in that. I don't know, there was like a pocket of time where people, it felt like nobody was crafting their own stuff and now it's back pretty hard, you know? But she, and then she became a florist. Like it's just really cool. Um, but when I bought it, it, it hadn't been fully utilized for quite a while. Um, so was it a hole in the wall? No, but it needed like a ton of love.

Yeah. It's beautiful in here.

Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. I didn't mean to.

I wish Edgley had a space like this.

Yeah. I, I think, I honestly think most communities would benefit from a space like this. It's just, it's hard to, honestly, it's hard to put all the pieces together. You almost need a person who is willing to purchase it, renovate it, and fund it. And that's what we did, you know? So I always, people always want to make it like a public entity and it's like, that's just tough to get a group of people that are elected officials or if you're using like taxpayer dollars to make the decision to do something like this, it's not an easy sell. So yeah. Well, and the reason this is you coming back is because you were one of the featured therapists at the Therapy Connect event that we did back in, what the heck month was that, Anna? Can you even remember?

I don't remember. Was it August?

Yes, it was. It was August.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's funny. Isn't it funny? It's like it took a ton of planning and a ton of prep and, You can forget the date that it happened, but it was. It was August. It was right before school.

And that was a— that concept of bringing therapists, specifically therapists that specialize in rural mental health, I think is an amazing thing because that's, again, just not a topic that is talked about or addressed or visited outside of one-on-ones with people, right? In a doctor's office or through a referral at the school. Like, we are making this information public to whoever needs it in that time, right?

So why don't we talk a bit about your work? Um, so how— so for everybody's reference, how big is the community that you live and work in?

Yeah, so Edgeley is roughly 500 people. You know, we say that some— it fluctuates around that. More cows than people, as we typically tend to say in rural towns.

Yep.

Um, and it's one school, K through 12, in our community. And I work as a mental health therapist serving all age groups. My youngest kiddo is 4, and my oldest client is in her 80s.

Okay.

So I have a wide range of individuals that I serve.

What's also really interesting about that is, just a note, it's like that feels very akin to even our medical, like our straight-up medical professionals, right? Like you come in, if you're a general med, you're gonna see that range. Yeah.

Um, and it's not just your typical anxiety, depression. I mean, that is a large portion of the work that I do, but also is trauma and rehousing and homelessness, that small communities aren't immune to those things either.

Right, right. Okay, so when you were here, you and I, and I told you this again today, like, I liked you the moment I met you, which is always just really fun. Like, I love a lot of people, Anna, it's like, so, but I don't say that to everybody either. There's a way that you carry yourself, there's a warmth and like a, and accessibility, if that's a fair word. I love that.

That's my goal.

Is it really?

I like my—

Well, you're nailing it. You are nailing it. You really are nailing it. There's, there's just a, um, there's a safety that I, that I feel when I'm in your presence. And so one of the things that you and I had talked about was I was like, oh my gosh, like, cuz I loved you. I was like, I want you to come back. And I'm really hoping, I'm just gonna say this and then we'll, we'll ping him right on. I want Chase to come back to—

Oh yeah. Chase.

Chase, if you're listening to this, Thank you. Pressure him, pressure him. We're gonna talk about not defining your worth by things you do, but we're gonna pressure the hell out of you to come back, Chase, and talk to us. But, 'cause he was local to us too in that whole thing. But I knew, again, I think the reason Growing Small Towns as an organization here kind of in our region took on the mental health coalition when the funding, the original funding that started it ran out, Uh, is because I just think, I just think mental health is health. Mm-hmm. I mean, I am a huge proponent of counseling and therapy. I really am. I, it's, it's weird. I wanna, I wanna, we're, I wanna talk about a few like cultural moments that I've been seeing lately and get your perspective on those. And then we're really gonna dive into this general topic of, I think, worth.

Mm-hmm.

Self-worth and, and all the different ways that we can outsource it maybe.

Yeah.

Right? Because I think that's, there's just so many things. And I think small towns, it's not that I don't necessarily think we struggle with these things more in a small town. It just might feel like it because there's less people to be, um, to like divert everybody's attention away.

Yeah.

Right. And, and to, to make stuff happen in a small town, there's less people. And so, or fewer people. So you just end up feeling maybe some of those pressures that we're gonna talk about a bit more. Yeah.

And I think you said, You had mentioned it too, like there's less opportunities to fill your cup.

Yeah.

And so sometimes you end up searching for what that opportunity might be by overextending yourself or putting yourself into a variety of different roles.

Right.

To, to find the thing that gives you purpose.

Right.

That you then feel good about yourself from.

Yep.

Because not everybody is, is like you where they're like, I'm gonna buy this building and I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna feel good.

Yeah. This building, I mean, as much as, and this is the weird part, um, a lot of people are like, oh, so you did this for your community? And I, I kind of stop and I, I say, well, yes, but not really. I mean, not, not fully.

Mm-hmm.

Because I did it for, I did it for me. Like I did it so I had a place that I felt proud of, that, you know, there's a lot and it's my self-worth isn't tied to this building., but I get to be me in here. Yes. Like fully. Yep. You know, and I get space. It's a, it's a physical space. So I made room for myself. Yes. Right. And that's by doing that, I'm hoping I make room for other people. Of course, that's the point. But, um, okay. So a couple cultural things that I've seen lately and like, I, I like love TikTok cuz I think, and that's like when I go to the gym, I just listen to TikToks and there's a lot of— what's that?

I don't have a TikTok account.

You know what? You're not the only one. And I still love you. You're probably better for me, better than me because you don't. Yeah.

Yeah, I just am like, I don't need one more thing.

No, it's an enormous time waster. It's an enormous time suck. I will own that. But I generally just do it when I'm at the gym. Okay. You know, so it's like, I'm still moving my body and doing healthy things while I'm doom scrolling. I don't really doom scroll. I find a lot of joy in it, right? But one of the things I've seen are a lot of clips. Like right now, you wouldn't maybe, we'll just see if you know this guy. Have you ever heard of Scott Galloway?

I don't think so.

Okay, so he's kind of in the zeitgeist right now. He's a gentleman, he's a professor. And he put out a book, gosh, what's it called? What's it called? It's about boys, it's about men. It's like, "How to Be a Man." I'm not getting this right, Anna, the name of the book, but he's talking a lot about kind of the crisis, the loneliness crisis among young men. And he recently just did an op-ed, I think in the New York Times. Again, we'll find these, put it in the show notes. Cassidy will make sure I, I'm not saying any of it. Anyway, I just wanna share with you what he said and get your take on it. I just said I'm pro-therapy.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I, I wanna share that. I think the reason I am is because I didn't understand myself as a child. And I moved to the world in a way that literally was just a reflection of what everybody else gave me.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think that's common. So I don't think my upbringing, my parents are wonderful humans. Okay. Like, I'm not gonna run my parents over the coals, but like, there's a level, a depth of emotional processing that I was never fully, I never fully accessed because I wasn't given the space to partially. My parents don't have that same raw need. Like, you know, I had different needs. And so as I've gotten older and I've really come to understand these things about myself, therapy was a path to unlocking those things in me. So I love the fact that our kids have social emotional learning built into their public school curriculum.

Yeah.

I stand up on stages and I say it because I, I, I don't see it as, so, so Scott, so, okay, so Scott Galloway, his whole thing was like, we don't need, like, therapy is, it's a privilege for, for the wealthy. It's a luxury. It's, it's not that necessary. You don't need to do all of this reflection. There's this other lady I saw on TikTok and she was like, she was, I don't, again, I don't even know if she's a therapist. You are. So we're gonna talk about it from your perspective. But she was like, all of the, you know, the inner looking and the, everybody is so fragile. She's talking about everybody mentally now, like kind of wash, you know, doing a sweeping generalization of all of us now and how she used the word triggered, right? Everybody's triggered. Because nobody has the grit that previous generations had. And, and she said, and then she said, um, and this is a paraphrase too, we won't find the quote on this one cuz it doesn't matter. But she basically just said there used to be a, you know, an inner reflection and a, and a, an emotional regulation that was just expected. That was just a part of growing up. That's not anymore. And I was like, hard disagree. Yeah.

I think, I think that comes, that opinion comes from a point of Someone who's done therapy, probably. Or someone who hasn't experienced, right? Like, to make a broad sweeping statement about something like that has never sat across the table from somebody as they're processing really hard things in life, right? That you don't just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and continue to move on.

Right.

Right. And I mean, there's people who do that. But oftentimes, then it results in hard time forming relationships with other people, addiction, chemical dependency, not meaningful connections. You can do that, but there's a cost at that.

Right. Well, and I guess I wanted just your general take on this because I think I kind of wanted a gut check for me because it hits me so sideways. That we would ever claim that the generations that came before us were mentally healthier or emotionally healthier. I think it's different, but I also— they were not assaulted with the things we're assaulted with today either, right? So I'm not saying we're better, but I think I always, I always think of— I'm raising children right now, right? We have very juicy, meaningful conversations about feelings We talk about emotional regulation. Like, I don't use those kinds of words exactly, right? But that's what we're talking about. And I didn't— I wasn't exposed to those conversations until I sought it for myself.

Yeah.

And I kind of like post my nuclear home environment, right? So I guess to me, I kind of— I just want to like a gut check. Like, isn't that good for society? Like, isn't it good that our kids are being exposed to to even kind of like, how do you process through? Because when you're young, you're literally just a sponge. You're just soaking up everybody else's stuff.

Yep.

Kind of.

And I think that it comes to like the polarity of it, right? That things can coexist. You can have grit and mental toughness and also feel things intensely and cry a bit and cry a bit, and that those things don't have to exist in isolation. You can be tough and also have bad days and cry and like wallow, that those things can coexist, that you don't always have to be that person that has their stuff together all the time.

Well, and doesn't this dovetail a little bit into what we want to talk about anyway? I mean, I didn't necessarily think about that when I brought this up, but it's just I've seen these things and it alarms me. You know, I'm just like, I, I'll say it from the perspective of a woman. I look at the previous generations of women in my family And I love and honor and respect them. One of them is my Grandma Dorothy, who ran this Ben Franklin store. But there were definitely things, like, as an adult now looking back, where I saw moments of not denial, but maybe not much of an expression of what was actually— I saw a lot of placating, right? And a lot of performative, like, I'm fine, nothing to see here, when when it's like, no, I— you had to be struggling, you know. My, my grandparents, I had a farm set of grandparents and like an in-town set of grandparents that ran a business here, um, but some really intense things that happened in their lives, you know, like really hard things. And I just, I think it's important, the both/and of what you just said. It's really, really important that it doesn't make you weak, because how is that a— how is that a helpful that grit means like a stiff upper lip. Yeah, that doesn't mean that. I have a shit ton of grit. I'll say that. I will own that. I really believe that I do. This has been so hard, and I still— I cry a lot, but I'm still— the grit isn't that you never feel, it's that you have the tenacity to keep going.

Yeah, the resilience.

It's right. And you, and you bounce, and you bounce back from it. And you know what, some of the hardest things in our lives— you and I were sharing some— you you've got some really incredible things, right? Like the things that we experience, even the word bounce back makes it sound like we're going to come back somehow like we were. I don't think that's true.

Yeah.

You know, I think the things that happen to us, they change us. And then it's almost— it's less even about bouncing back, but it's about creating something beautiful and new from whatever it was.

Yeah.

You know, learning something and growing through it, I guess.

And there's a lot of grit that comes from not accepting the way things are.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

To say, like, OK, I understand that's the way that it's been, but that's not always the way it has to be.

Mm-hmm.

And that grit that we're giving kids to say, OK, like, I get that my parents are this way, but that doesn't mean I have to do the same. Mm-hmm. That this is what works for me.

Right.

This is how I am healthy. This is how I'm owning my space and ultimately my life.

Yeah.

Right? Like, this is how I'm choosing to live. And by giving kids tools to manage emotions, they're able to navigate the world in a much healthier way, right? So that bouncing back or that resilience comes potentially easier.

Right. Yeah. It was alarming to me.

Yeah, not a fan.

Not a fan either. I know. I was just like, meh. There's great— again, I'll say all of these people are probably both ends. So I don't usually just go, well, I can't stand you or anything. There's a few maybe, like, people that I just think, like, where do you— where do you— where are you even coming from? Yeah, but I, I understand what they're trying to say. I guess, I guess probably why it hit me is I do a lot of, um, organizational development work kind of around this discussion of generations and what do they need today in, in like a workplace setting to feel supported, empowered. How do we, how do we engage them? They have different needs. Um, and so I really, I completely do reject out of hand that they're just all soft.

Yeah.

No, it's not. That is not what I see.

No. Yeah. I, it just like makes my blood boil.

Okay.

This like view that this, and I feel really strongly about this generation of kids coming up. Um, and I know it's because I get to see an inside view of a lot of them.

Mm-hmm.

In, in really an intimate space where the average person on the street isn't having those in-depth conversations.

Right.

But I truly think that this generation, like, is going to change the world.

Yeah.

And what they— how they view things, how they look at things critically, how they don't just accept the way that things are.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's things about the generation too, right? But I remember a conversation I had with my dad once about generational annoyance. Right. And my dad's like, it has been around forever. My parents were annoyed with my generation. I was annoyed with your generation. You will be annoyed with the next generation. That generational annoyance comes and it goes.

Totally.

It's not isolated to this current one, right?

Right.

There's things about it, but there's also really incredible things that kids are doing.

I totally agree. And so let's talk a little bit about this, because I think the way you approach your work And I think some of what we're talking about, that kids are being given tools earlier. I'll say they're being equipped earlier to do the self-reflection that's required to live your life in an aligned way and aligned with what really is healthy, important, and necessary for you.

Mm-hmm.

Not, not the rule book or playbook that's been handed to you by the people who raised you. And that's really hard. I mean, let's just be honest about that. That's like really hard to do. And I still think, again, I'm back in the community that raised me. You come back and all of a sudden you feel— I mean, I really struggled with this. And then I do too. And then I catch shit from people that are like, why are you— this perception that I think I'm too good for it. It's like, you are missing. A, you're just not hearing or listening fully, right? Because that's not what I'm saying. It's just, it really is easy. I think I was born with a people-pleasing gene. You know, I do. I mean, I think I literally came out like wired to please everybody. And when you do that, you can— I mean, there was, there were times where I was like, everybody around me seems really good. Why am I feeling so drained and kind of miserable and and sad.

Yeah.

Why do I feel so empty?

Yeah. And I think that goes into that topic too of boundaries, right? When we initially say that word boundaries, people get like clammy. They do. You get sweaty and you're like, oh no.

They wrinkle their nose and they kind of cringe.

I can't do that. That's not OK. But boundaries ultimately are healthy, right? They help keep us and our mental health safe. They keep others around us and their mental health safe. That those are essential parts of coexisting, especially in a small town.

Right, right. So, so let's talk about some of the ways in which— and I mean, this doesn't have to just focus on women, but I think— do you think as a therapist— so I'll ask it and ask you your opinion— do you, do you think as a therapist that in some ways women are more prone to, to either people pleasing or burnout due to giving everything away. Is that, is that, is that a reality, or is that just a myth kind of perpetuated by gender stereotypes?

No, 100%.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, thank you.

You know, I know there's science behind it. Again, I can't like speak to that accurately.

That's okay. Yeah, we're gonna trust you because you're an actual licensed professional. I'm not. I just spew ridiculous— I just spew anecdotal things, and then I bring smarter people on here than me, and they help round it out. That's what That's what we do.

Yeah. So, and I think it's even, you know, the topic of burnout, that's something you said, just started being studied in the '70s, right? Like, that's new. It's a new topic. And women's health itself, like, is just now being studied in the '80s, right?

Right.

I just saw an article the other day that for the first time in history, a woman's physique is being used or body type in crash dummies. They've never tested crash dummies with a woman's— the way a woman is built.

Right?

Like, that's new. Like, that's new, new, like, in the last, like, month. Is that not wild?

In the last month?

Yes.

In the year of December of 2025, they just thought to do that? Mm-hmm. Like, isn't that wild?

The way a woman is built to test that in crashes. So the, the, the study of women, that's appalling. And the study of mental health is so new.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think that there, it's out there. I think it has a lot of catching up to do on how that manifests then into children and the way that you're raised. Right. Because we know that, not to stereotype, but truly women do a lot of the primary caregiving.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and emotional connections with children. And it all relates, right?

So, so one of the things I would love to explore with you is, um, I think we're going to look at this through the lens of anything that we would outsource our worth or sense of worth to. So some of what I think really dictates these roles, or one of, one of the boxes, are kind of, um, again, it's the— that your family of origin, right? The way that you were raised, how if we're going to talk on the woman's side of things, how women behaved and what was expected of them. I think we're handed a blueprint for that from religion a lot of times. And I think it's— those kinds of things are very, very hard to— and it's not even pushing back against, but I would say to set a boundary around.

Yeah.

So in your experience, how does and would one do that? Like, what does that really look like?

How much time do we have?

We have all the freaking time in the world. Do you know that?

I mean, that is a loaded, a loaded question because it looks so differently for so many people, like boundary setting or— I think that oftentimes— hold on, I got to think of how I want to word this so that it like sounds professional and not too like preachy, right?

I get it.

That you, you try really hard as a woman to not only fit the stereotype of, of our cultures, but also of, of our towns, right? So our small communities. And how we go against that depends on the type of role that you've, uh, that you continue to assume. And so whether it's, you know, you the go-getter who does it all and is a yes woman, right? And, and then it's you pull back on that and automatically there's a negative connotation with that, right?

I've experienced this.

Yeah, that people start asking questions, or, or, you're too good for this project, why can't you help with this?

And so, and by the way, like, just for everybody's truth, truth here, there, those aren't— they might be saying those things, but they sure aren't saying them to me.

Yeah, right.

They're not, they're not coming to me with their questions of concern. Yeah, they're talking about it.

So how do you How do you deal with that then? I think you have to come internally within yourself.

Yeah.

And, and learn to not establish your self-worth with what people think of you or what you do or how productive you are.

Right. So now you're talking like hustle culture, which is real, right? And so, so do you think that for the most part— well, I mean, I was going to say, where, where are we getting that template from? Some of it is it's handed to us from our families. Sometimes it's handed to us by the community. But don't you think like Americans—

yeah, westernized cultures—

yeah, we just kind of dig it. Yeah, don't we?

Like, the busier and more productive you are, the more you are viewed as a better person, right? Right. And yourself too. You view yourself as a better person. Like, sitting and being idle and being present with yourself in that mindfulness state isn't something that's valued.

It's not in Western culture, and it is elsewhere. Elsewhere. So, okay, so I, I told— oh, I just, I totally agree. And I think about how, how truly damaging it is to a person's soul, really, when they look for that fulfillment or that, like, um the fullness of their self-worth always and completely outside of themselves. Like, if it's always externally motivated, it almost can't even come home and land, right?

Yeah.

So, so what— okay, so what are some ways that we can— like, I think there's a couple things here. There's like assessing it within ourselves, realizing it's happening. Yeah. How do we— what should we be looking for? And then what are the practical things that we could do. And I'm saying practically, right? Like, even if it's— I mean, seriously, I get that, like, perhaps if you really, really struggle with this, one-on-one counseling might be helpful for you, right? Of course, I would encourage that because I think it's great. But I think there's a lot of things that we can do if we, first of all, allow ourselves that time, that quiet, reflective time. And I think journaling or even just having a set of prompts to reflect on and think about actually is helpful.

Yeah.

And so, so tell me, as a, as a professional, where— like, what, what could we practically offer people if they're like, oh my gosh? Because, okay, we talked about this before, so think of the whole range of people that might listen to this. I think about high school students. Um, in my community, sports is an enormous sense of self-worth for these young kids. That's okay. It's just if that's the only thing they're good for, truly, what happens next?

Yeah.

Right? Not only could an injury take it away, but unless you're going to like continue to— it's so few of our children.

It's tied to their performance.

Right. Right. It's tied to their performance. So there's like sports. Then there's community involvement. Like if we kind of roll into the adult— and on the kids' side of things too, it could be like, I'm involved in all the things. I'm a 4.0 student. Any of the things that create that drive, that that's what I have to reach to be okay, right? That's what we're talking about. So then on the adult side, it's the community involvement. It's your job. Maybe it's money. It's how you parent. It might be religious. It might be have a religious construct, right? Like all of these things are technically roles that we play. They're not who we are.

Mm-hmm.

So I thought I would like lay that out now. Like if anybody listening to this is like, I totally tie my worth to, I don't know, being the go-to volunteer in the community.

Yeah.

And I'm starting to realize, well, like, hey, how do you start to realize it? What are, how does this show up in practice? Yes. For you. You know, burnout, right?

Yeah. That's, I mean, it's a taboo word. It can have a lot of different meanings for a lot of different people. And it's something I think that's thrown around a lot more now.

Mm-hmm. Right.

A lot of what I see burnout present as is that before an event happens, you almost are doing this engaging in yourself to be like, OK, I can do this. I'm pumping myself up. I'm building my— like creating an emotional capacity to then go and do the thing.

Yep.

If you have to do that, you shouldn't be doing the thing. That's like a number one.

I know. Yeah.

I know. My God. Right? That's like— that realization of like, this isn't filling my cup. If I have to fill my cup on my own to get myself to go and do the thing, I shouldn't be doing it.

I think I just shared with you before we hit record that I turned 45 about a month ago. It is actually taking me into my 40s to catch that in myself. Like, I really— I just did the next thing that honestly I thought I was expected to do. Kind of in my earlier life. I, I have actually, um, extricated myself or pulled back from a lot, a lot of things in the last couple of years, and every single time it was because of that almost exact explanation where if I have to build up a reservoir within myself to go to the thing because I know that it's going to get depleted then you kind of think about, okay, well, what if you didn't? What if you just built yourself up and didn't go into situations that then depleted it? Like, what if you minimize those situations? Because, and again, it isn't— I'm not any, and neither are you, we're not demonizing anything. Like, the choices are all out there for every single one of us, but it's about good yeses, strong, powerful, aligned yeses.

Yeah, and it's not that the thing itself is draining, right? Being a part of the church choir or on the ambulance or, um, whatever that, that thing is. It's not that those themselves are draining, right? It's that they don't align with what you need from them, right? Being on the church choir in itself is not something that should cause a lot of emotional draining. No, right? Like, it should be the opposite, right? But there are those people who have to hype themselves up to go and do that because it's not filling their cup.

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Okay, I love that. That's such a good cue. So if, if you feel— if you feel like that almost mental and energetic—

it's like that depersonalization, I think, is a way to say it. Like, yep, you're, you're kind of distancing yourselves from, from that feeling by filling it up before you leave.

Yep. Okay, so that's one, one thing. How else does this show up? How about physical? Like, I think, I think we had talked about this. There's some physical manifestations, right?

So the body has a really great and also unhelpful thing that it does. It can't determine whether you're being chased by a lion or having to contact 7 people for the local parade, right? Like, right, if you're stressed, you're stressed. Your body doesn't— can't, um, determine what the stress is coming from, right? So you could have the same physiological response of being chased by a lion as you do of having to call these 7 people to help be in this parade.

I really want that to sink into people because I think people— I think there's a lot of times people maybe have heard that your body doesn't know the difference. But I think what comes along with this sometimes, Anna, and again, like, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think the first thought people have if they feel that stress is they shame themselves for feeling stressed.

Yes.

Because they are like, God, this is not that big of a deal. I am not being chased by a lion. Why am I— You know, kind of like— What are you stressed out about? Why am I feeling so stressed? And then people will be like, my favorite people in the world, and I am being very sarcastic here, this is all sarcasm, is when they say, just relax.

Oh, right?

Like, do you think that I would—

I wish I would have thought of that.

I know, like, oh my God, that is all I have to do is just relax?

Oh man, that's where—

why didn't you come on 25 years ago? You know what I mean?

Comes into that coping skill of, you know, you just got chased by a lion and now I'm supposed to just lay here and relax about it, right? Like, no, that's not how our body— what our bodies need, right? So movement, going on walks, jumping jacks, walking around your house, picking up heavy objects, like those are practical things that when you're feeling that stress you're able to do, but to recognize that you're having it, right? So like the heart palpitations and the rapid thoughts and the sweaty palms, and, and some level of stress is normal and unavoidable, right? So that's again using those coping skills to manage that. But some of it is like, okay, do I need to be stressed? Is this one of those things that I could let go of, right?

Yep.

To outsource.

Yep, yep. Yeah, because I guess the other thing I think about with this too, it's like if you're, if you're feeling that level of stress about making 7 phone calls, there may be growth in that activity for you. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, so, so that's the other thing too. I'm thinking about people that are listening to this that might have businesses. There's a lot of stress that comes with running a business and a lot of moments where you're now faced with another new thing that you don't know how to do.

Mm-hmm.

And if you're a perfectionist by any sort of nature, there's a lot of stress that comes with not knowing what to do next. And that's real, right? You feel all of those same things. There's still a lot of thought that you have to give to, do I just give this up? Like, it's hard, right? So we're not saying, like, I just want to be sure that we hear that and we don't go, just eliminate the hard stuff. Because that's where growth happens, right? We get better through navigating those things. But I think sometimes we're creating unnecessary stress Yes. Because those things that we're feeling that stress about are not really ours. We could let them go. Mm-hmm. We— so what are the reasons people tell themselves they can't?

Shame.

Yeah. Okay. So where does the shame come from? Help, help my listeners understand shame as a— I mean, again, you're like, how much time do we have?

Yeah.

Because it's a big, big topic. But I, I think just, cuz I don't think, I don't even think people really understand how prevalent shame is.

Mm-hmm.

As a feeling.

Yeah.

And how much it motivates our behaviors.

Mm-hmm. Well, just because we don't have a ton of time, but if like anyone's listening to this and they want more information on shame, check out Brené Brown.

Yeah, she's really good.

Shameless plug, like major fangirl here of her. She's amazing. She like has a whole book, whole curriculum on dealing with shame.

What's her favorite book? Let me, or your favorite book of hers.

Braving Greatly, I would say is probably my favorite. Okay.

I haven't read that one yet.

It's a good one.

Okay. I haven't read that one yet.

Yeah.

So shame of just If I don't do it, is it Daring Greatly or Braving? Because it's Braving the Wilderness.

I think it's Daring Greatly. Well, now you're—

is it Daring Greatly? I think it's Daring Greatly.

I think so. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. We'll— I'll make sure that we link the right one.

Put that in the—

Braving the Wilderness is one of my favorite ones that she did. I, I, I agree. Totally agree. She's actually a shame researcher.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I love too how she makes it accessible, like truly relatable in a way that you're like, oh, Because I just, again, you know, and I'm not saying we all need to sit around and have conversations about shame, but you do need to understand it. Mm-hmm. And understand like where it might be coming from. But so where does that shame come from for people? When you say immediately your answer was shame. Mm-hmm. In this context of, let's just stick with the 7 phone calls you have to make for some community fundraiser. Yeah. Where is shame coming from in that if I would say no to it?

Oh, again, I think it goes back to the self-worth, right? Or letting people down, or not being good enough, or not managing time enough, or enough, enough, enough, right? Right. So there's a lot of thinking errors or those cognitive distortions that we talk about, right? Like, if I don't do this, people are going to think I'm a bad person. Right. Or if I can't manage this, then I can't manage anything.

Yes.

If this person's twice as busy as I am and they can do it, how come I can't?

I cannot tell you the number of times that one has crept in. For me, where I'll just be like, who am I to think I'm not— I don't have time for this. Look at her. Yeah. And look at her life. And, and why is it so important for us not to do that? Like, how is that a futile comparison? Like, my life to her life?

Oh, that's a loaded question.

I know. I'm sorry, I'm not trying— these are not gotchas. I hope you don't feel that way. I'm—

and I hope my listeners the listeners understand too that, um, yeah, that we didn't—

I didn't say like, here's the 10 questions. Yeah, because that's not how I like to do this. So yeah, you get, you get time to think. You're good.

Okay. I think that, you know, when we talk about, um, cognitive distortions or these thinking errors, these are ways that then manifest. So if we have that overgeneralization, right, like if I'm bad at this, I'm bad at that, or the future telling, right? If I can't do this, then I'm not going to be able to do anything, or nobody's going to ask me to do anything ever again.

Right.

Those are breeding grounds for anxiety and depression because of the messages you're telling yourself that aren't true.

Mm-hmm.

Right? It's like that walking into a space and feeling like everyone in that space was talking about you when they probably were not talking about you.

Right.

Right? But you're feeling that. So it creates those thought patterns and those thinking errors to then lead into bigger issues. Right. Right? Because then it bleeds into relationships with partners. And friends, coworkers, right? That it might just start with those 7 phone calls and how you feel about yourself with those 7 phone calls and not being able to do them. But it doesn't just stop there because then you create thought patterns that bleed into every other part of your life.

Right, right. I think— I don't know that, um, my therapist has ever used the word cognitive distortions or thinking problems, but I like, I like both of those. I think it's really cool you, you happen to be a therapist that works with with young, young children. So that's why there's an accessibility to the way that you talk about this, because there has to be, right? Yeah, like you have to use, you have to use language that kids can understand to relate and all that. So I think just the idea of even being like, is this a thinking problem?

Like, what, where is this coming from? Yeah, why am I— why, what evidence? I always ask my clients, yeah, what evidence do you have to support that thought, right? Like, tell me. I want facts. I don't want an opinion. I love this, right? So like you— someone's never going to ask for your help ever again because you can't make these 7 phone calls. Tell me what facts you have to support that thought, right? And if they can't, then that's a thinking error.

I love—

that's your brain taking over.

You said error, not problem. Thank you for the adjustment on that. That's so great though, because it really is— it is truly wild to me, um, the amazing and intricate connection between our body and our mind. Like, they're not really They're not separate, you know, they're, they're all one thing. And so the same way that our body can't tell the difference between being chased by a lion and having stress over making phone calls, we can't, we can't tell the difference between a truth and a lie.

Yes, correct.

And so we lie to ourselves. That's, that's the way that I like to think about it for myself is like, I, I believe that truth is one of the hardest things to tell yourself along the way about things. People make it sound like the truth is easy. Like we're all just out here saying we're truth tellers and I'm like, almost nobody is. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Whether it's to yourself or to other people.

Correct. Yeah. Because I just think it's almost impossible to tell the truth to other people if we can't be honest with ourselves. Mm-hmm.

Right. Like, yeah.

And so, and it's, I have to tell you this too, cuz I think you'll appreciate this, like from an anthropological standpoint, like who we've been as communities and societies over time. I have a friend that was like, um, they used to stone the truth tellers. You know, like, you know, we, we talk about truth truth-telling as if it's this thing that everybody appreciates, that it's not exactly true. So what we actually prefer is kind of a— well, and that's why I think I love, um, Brené Brown's book Braving the Wilderness, because she talks about speaking truth to bullshit. That's one of her, like, lines. You would love this book. In fact, I'll give you my copy. Remind me. I have a copy of it. It's beautiful, hardcover and everything. Um, but just the fact that, like, we're, we're actually much more wired to be like just tell me what I want to hear. We say we don't want that. We do, but societally we really just want to hear what we want to hear.

Yeah.

So I— this is getting just like the core nature of humans, which I will find endlessly fascinating until I'm dead, you know. But I think too, like, thinking about— I'm sitting here and I'm saying, oh my gosh, like, I'm not that busy, look at her. The truth is it isn't just Like, they're the reason I think comparison, there's no point truly to it, is because, well, two kind of two things, and I want your clinical perspective on this. But one is like, it doesn't matter because she isn't you. So she's not doing like, she's not going to be living with the choices you make. She's not going to be there with you in bed at 2 in the morning when you can't sleep and you're stressed out.

Out.

The people we spend all this time kind of like, um, adjusting our yeses and our nos around, right? Like to somehow keep the peace or like make sure they think well of us, they are not like in it with us. We'll be alone.

Yeah. And also, we don't know what—

we don't know.

It goes back to the truth, right? That social media and this, this feeling of we have to have it all together and presented as having all together, right? Like nobody like, little secret for the listeners, nobody has it all together, right? Not a single person has it all together, right? Like, and so comparing, you're comparing to what you're just seeing.

Exactly.

Not what they might be feeling or what's happening on behind closed doors, or it's a presentation.

Well, it, and it is for every single one of us because there's a polite society part of this whole, this thing. We're not gonna take the full mess of ourselves out onto the streets. That's not clinically healthy.

No, no, not helpful.

Yeah, right. There's, there's— so there's, there's a place, and I think Brené Brown talks about this too, there— because we're talking about vulnerability— the vulnerability to land in that for ourselves is the first step. And then, do you not truly believe from a clinical perspective that you have to have like at least one human that you can come out of yourself and, and give it to them, and they'll hold it and they'll sit with you in it. Like, does that— does that— yeah, does that feel true?

Yeah, absolutely. And so again, like, all the more reason for therapy, because that is that one place that I, I just hold space, right? I don't have opinions about whatever this is that you're coming to me and needing that, that space for. I'm not your spouse, I'm not your mom, I'm not your sister, right?

You don't have those emotional— you're not emotionally invested in that way. Yeah.

Correct.

That's where family— I mean, it gets dicey as hell, you know, like because how I behave affects those people.

And what I think.

What I think and what I do and how I act and whether I decide to drop a facade of a performance. Like, you know, as you grow and you're like, "I don't— that's not for me anymore. I don't want to do that anymore." It's one thing. I shared this with a friend. I was talking to these two gals I just love. They asked kind of what this last year was about, and I was like, I think I spent a lot of time just trying to do some solid internal aligning, and now comes the hard work of externally aligning around that internal alignment, right? It is hard work to get there on your own in yourself, and then it's really hard to then negotiate that with everybody else. And Brené Brown says your worth is not negotiated with other humans. I understand that, um, You start dancing differently. You change up your go-to moves with your spouse from a foxtrot to a cha-cha. They're stepping on your feet, you're stepping on theirs. You know, it's, it's challenging. It's really hard. Yeah.

And they have their own things.

That's right. That's right. And then the easy thing—

there's not enough space for both things.

Correct.

Correct.

Okay, so I love this so much. So what, what else? These are such— I think there's really good practical value in what we talked about so What other things kind of— how about physical? We'll go back to physical manifestations. Um, what else might people be— what might be happening to them that might be a signal of either burnout or, um, kind of overextension maybe?

Yeah. Um, another one, so I think I mentioned like the sweaty palms, the headache, the heart palpitations. Digestive problems is another. Like, your gut, they say, is like your second brain, right? Like, it Like so much of your digestion has to do with your emotional health. So disruptions in that, changes in appetite. I think all of those things— tired, feeling tired, even though if you've got an adequate amount of sleep, all of those things, again, don't coexist— or excuse me, coexist with everything else.

Right.

Right. You're not just having one or the other.

Right. Yeah, I, uh, sleep well. And for women, just the phases of our lives that we're in, the hormone roller coaster of being a woman is wild.

Yep.

You know, just obviously like the natural cycle of once every month, you know, if you're, if you're healthy and that's all good. Um, but having babies, um, that roller coaster. And then as you get later in life, it's real.

Yep.

And, and it's, I think I just, I love that I think it's so fantastic that, um, Edgeley, just this little town not that far from us, has you that they can, that they can come to. Um, because this idea that like nobody needs therapy unless they're really messed up, air quotes, I'm like, what are you even talking about? Yeah, because life is actually, I think, just baseline kind of hard. And so to me, therapy is about— for me, therapy has been a couple of things. Like I've kind of mentioned already, it's about that understanding how I'm made so that when I'm feeling distress, I can, I can assess it and understand maybe why and make different choices to kind of reduce some of that.

Yeah.

So I think understanding my unique creation, like who I am, is a really— I, it's all— I'm the only one that can do that.

Yeah. And I like what you said, reduce, not avoid. Yeah, right. It goes back to the other side. Yeah, we're not, we're not in, in therapy, we're not saying you need to avoid all of these things, just just don't, don't do anything that's going to cause you stress, right? But it's prioritizing and then learning and, and gaining the coping skills to do the things you need to do effectively.

Yeah, it's exactly— I was actually— that's the other part for me. It's because I've, I've always actually been highly emotional and highly sensitive, and having that much within me and inside of me and not having language to access it or tools to positively and effectively harness it is way more dangerous. You know, I just, I would get kind of explosive. I would get upset and it was like everything that was hard came out as anger.

Yeah.

When I was younger.

And knowledge is power.

Yes, I think so.

Right? Like if I know why these things are happening and know that these things can be somewhat normal, or I should say common, not normal. Mm-hmm. Um, that then I feel less broken. And when I feel less broken, I feel healthier.

And when we feel, I think when we feel less broken, we care about people more beautifully and more openly because if we can, if we can love the, the hard parts of ourselves, or at least just understand them differently, I think that extends to how we treat other people too. I, I don't, I, that's at least, again, that's what I believe. Yeah. That's what I feel. That's what I feel like I've experienced in my own life because we're showing up for people in an authentic way.

Authentic way, right? Not trying to fill our cup to, to participate in the church choir, right? We're doing it because it— we're showing up authentically for it because it feels good for us.

Yeah.

And that's what ultimately people want. Yeah. Like, I don't want you to sit across from me and fake it, right? Like, I want you to genuinely want to be in a space.

Yeah. And I think, I think the irony of authenticity is that everybody wants it And sometimes the more you want it and the more you chase it, the more elusive it becomes for you because it's not something you access outside of yourself.

Yes.

You don't perform your way to authenticity, you know?

Wild.

I know. I know.

The light bulb is like just going off over our heads of just like there's— again, everything is connected that way.

Yeah, well, I think it's such an important question for every single person is the moment you feel like a yuck, whatever it is, you know, if it's a little bit of stress about it, is even just to stop and say, why? And the, you know, that why, like, where is it? Like, in the where is this coming from?

Is it just today that I'm feeling that?

Right. Looking for patterns.

A pattern.

Right.

Is this something that's happening every time? Because we have those days, right? Like, I really don't want to go do that thing today. Right, but next month I'll want to be there.

Totally.

And we're giving ourselves that grace to have those moments. But if it's a continuous not showing up internally, right, then I think it's time to do an assessment of, am I doing this because I feel like I have to? Am I doing this because my worth is attached to it? And again, more of that internal dialogue, right?

Well, and it's, it's so important for small community folks to listen to this. And understand this and do some of that self-reflection because you would, I would burn out. There's not a doubt in my mind if I actually said yes to everything I've ever been asked to do, Anna, there wouldn't be enough time to eat. And small towns, you know, really.

And small towns people are amazing.

They are, they are.

Like think of all of the things that Oaks or Edgley has accomplished in these communities with little resource.

Mm-hmm.

Like, these are incredible places to live.

Right.

We are surrounded by really talented, insightful, intelligent, caring people.

Amen.

But they have to stay that way. And a way they have to stay that way is by taking care of themselves.

Absolutely. I think about this all the time. Like, when I look at our community and I just think about it, and I think about, OK, How many? So I think there was somebody that gave me a stat. I won't get it right and I won't even attempt it, but it was at one point there was, uh, a stat of how many open nonprofit, like volunteering jobs there were that could be even tracked. So imagine all the ones that wouldn't be tracked, like alone in the state of North Dakota. I think it was open board positions is what it was.

Yep.

Um, and, and I won't pretend to say the number, but just, I remember when that hit me and I thought, So the knee-jerk reaction to that is to say, well, it's almost like someone's not pulling their weight. Somebody— that's what we want to say. And I always want to take a step back and say, okay, no, there's absolutely plenty of us to fill. There's enough people, human capacity, in every community. What if we took more of an approach of helping them, helping every single person align to what they give I give best to and with and for, right? Like my skills, my talent, my unique makeup is set up well to do certain things. Not to do everything. None of us are. No. But imagine just the beauty of just like a matchmaker kind of a situation. I've honestly often dreamed like, what does that mean? Is it an app? Do we, you know, do we create something? Like what do we do? But I'm telling you, I just think there is enough talent. And so I, this I think specifically is for those of our listeners that are listening to this that are the ones that say, well, if I don't do it, nobody will. That, that's not— that's one of those, um, opinions couched as a truth. So like, if you then were to push back and say, what's the truth? What's the evidence to prove that? They don't have it, right? Other than just the fear that if they let it go, it'll fall apart. I also say sometimes things can fall apart, and we can let them fall apart, and it's okay. If the whole thing rides on your shoulders it's not sustainable anyway, right?

You know, I think control— you can't talk about that without control either. Yes, that we as humans have a hard time letting go of control.

Absolutely. Yeah, one, especially when we tie our worth to it, which is what we're talking about, right? But I just think, yeah, there, there's, there's so— there's— it's so important because you can tell the difference when somebody shows up with a generous heart to be where they're at versus when they were like voluntold.

Yeah.

To be there. Or, you know, or like if they're fulfilling, they're checking a box.

Mm-hmm.

And fulfilling an obligation. It's just not the same. And, and I think that's only we can do that. That's work that only we can do internally.

And I, again, circling back to our kids, I think it starts in our school systems too.

Mm-hmm.

That if you are not an honor society member, a basketball player, a volleyball player, golf, Drama track, FFA, FBLA, FCCLA. I mean, SADD. The list, that's just not all of them. I could keep going.

I know.

And if you're not involved in all of those things, then you're passed over for stuff, or you're that student, or the labels then that other kids or other adults place on kids that that's just maybe not a good fit for them.

Right.

And that's okay.

Exactly. And there's, and that's just it too. Like in, in the one thing that the world has really, as much, as much challenge has come along with social media and technology and just interconnectedness, like globally, obviously. Um, there's also opportunity, you know, like we all each individually can craft a life that like lets every little bucket of need and excitement and interest, we can, we can fulfill all of those.

Yep.

You know, no matter where we're at, like I, I think we're really lucky we live in a region, like we'll even say a region cuz I consider you are close enough to me where I would consider that regional.

Mm-hmm.

Like if you hosted something that I really wanted to go to, I would drive an hour to come and see it.

Yeah.

And be a part of it. Right. We have a, I think a rich set of communities that are all doing cool things all the time. So there's a lot of opportunity for that, but where we're at is never a reason to not be able to pursue true, like, interest areas, right? And that's the shit. So when kids are even going like, I'm not really interested in any of that, it's like, what are you interested in? And let's figure out where to help you get it.

Yep.

You know, instead of being like, no, this is what—

like, you need to fit in this—

you need to fit in this box. Yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the harder things, and we were talking about this earlier too, of our kids being in a smaller school system, is there's just a bit less diversity from multiple perspectives. So I think as parents, if we care about that, we maybe have to get a little more creative about how do we round some of those edges out when they're just not here, right? Because I don't want my kids to ever feel like this is the only way— like the word success isn't even something I'm— It's like, what is value? What is worth? I don't ever want them to feel like there's one template.

Yeah.

And if they don't fit it, and it can change. Yeah. Oh, I've changed so much as an adult.

The template of, of what you had as a 17-year-old and what you have as a 21-year-old can be different. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, and I think you and I have a unique perspective on that coming back to the places we were born and raised.

Yep.

And, and that we aren't the same people.

Right.

And I'm not even the same person that I was before I had babies.

Absolutely not. Yeah.

And that changes you.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And, or before you own your own business, you, we adapt, we grow, we learn.

Mm-hmm.

Figure it out. We make a lot of mistakes.

Tons.

Yeah.

Tons. And I think there's just something really beautiful about, um, giving yourself, I think, I think giving yourself first and foremost that grace. Mm-hmm. Of the trying and then it not working out and the growth and then the resilience, but the changing. I think it's really hard. I don't know that I always felt free to change my mind about things.

Yeah. I think as a woman and as someone who's in a small town, that's like a double a double whammy, right?

Like, yeah. So when I said that, how did that hit you? Because you, you physically had like a— your face physically did something.

Yeah, that— I mean, that's deep, right? Like, I feel that personally in myself of that changing my mind. But I would say that is a lot of the root of, of a good portion of the high school kids that I work with, that I've changed my mind and I don't know how to tell people that I've changed my mind. Or I've decided to change who I want to be and I don't know how to tell people.

Yeah.

And I don't want them to wait till they're 45 to figure that out.

Nope, me neither. Me neither. That's why I'm so passionate about this.

I love the work that I do because I think of so much life and potential and happiness that is at risk if we are not equipping kids with the space or the skills to have conversations like that.

Yeah, yep, I totally agree. It's this general idea of what does it look like to make a choice, to choose by design instead of by default, right? Like if there's been a preordained path for you, it's really hard to look at your parent or your grand— whoever handed you that template and said, this is what you gotta do. If you wanna be a, if it's your last name, or if you want, you know, like if there's that strong of a traditional like legacy, vibe in a family, which happens— it happens in farming, the farming community. And, and, you know, it can have the pressure and the expectation.

Yeah, you can have the most loving parents and supportive people in your life and that conversation still be hard.

Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah. And so that's it too, like, none of this is to say all of our parents are awful. So here we are, like, all of our parents were struggling with all the same things that we're struggling with as parents now. Like, it's it's different in terms of some of the things show up differently, but like every single one of us, whoever parented, A, was an incomplete human themselves because we're always growing and evolving and shifting. And then B, none of us were given a rule book or a guidebook. Like none of us know what we're doing.

Yeah.

Like we're all out here intuitively doing the best we can. We maybe educate ourselves and learn some stuff or whatever, but then all the kids are different.

Mm-hmm.

Too. It's like the most bizarre thing. It's the most important work we have to do, and there's literally no clear right and wrong. Obviously there's some, some, but you know, I'm not talking about like the basic necessity things. Yeah. I'm talking about just the, the depth of what we're talking about. Like how do we nurture that in each child?

I think while still nurturing it in yourself.

Correct. Like not, not giving over. And giving up and setting that example.

And mm-hmm.

Yeah. Cuz that's the truth, isn't it? Like kids, they don't, well, I mean, they don't even really listen that well, but they watch.

Yeah.

They absorb it by what they see.

Mm-hmm.

And so are we modeling the things we want them to have, the things we want them to be, the character pieces that we want them to, to develop. Right. Yeah.

And I think in full transparency, I feel like a little bit of a hypocrite having this conversation about worth and self-worth and busyness and shame and guilt. Because I know my husband will listen to this episode and be like, okay, what are you giving up, right? Like, there'll be that conversation of like, you just talk for an hour about how important it is to set boundaries and look within yourself and, and have healthy, meaningful interactions with people, so what, what are you willing to give up, right? And like, even just recognizing that in myself, that it causes physical like Nothing. I can't give any of that up. Mm-hmm.

But you will. I bet you will.

Yeah.

I hope that this, I hope that's exactly what happens with this conversation. You and Alex sit down and he's like, so let's talk about this. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And you'll be like, dang it.

Yeah.

I shouldn't have said all those things out loud. But you know, I think, I think like that's, but that's also, I think that's really beautiful that you even know that he's going to do that.

Yeah.

What a gift to you. Cuz that's partnership too.

Mm-hmm.

And it takes— it does, it takes— that's the network and kind of support piece of it. People need that. You know, I have a best friend that's just off the hook incredible. Like, I can't— my life is so full and meaningful. And I just know that there's not a single thought that I could ever have that would be too ridiculous, scary, shameful, embarrassing, or anything just to say out loud to her. Yeah. And that level of safety is, it is hard to find. I'm not gonna say that you just, like, you just find it, but my God, if you have it, don't let it go. Mm-hmm. Because this, we aren't meant to do this by ourselves either.

And if you don't have it, go see a therapist.

Amen.

Because they will give it for you.

Yeah. My, my favorite, you said it earlier that like, you're like, that's as a therapist, you create a space, right? Where, yeah, you hold space. You're, you're like, it's not, there's no judgments. Like there's no judgments. I love it with my therapist. I'll take something to her that I'm feeling a lot of anxiety about, and I like— it's like shamey feelings, and I'm kind of that— I'm feeling a little bit embarrassed. Tender is a word I use a lot, or spongy.

Oh, I like that.

You know, where I'll be like, uh, and then I'll take it to her and I'll say it to her and I'll expect like some big reaction, and she'll go, okay, with like nothing. She gives me nothing in terms of like— I, I can tell it didn't land on her brain like, oh, you did that. It's just like Okay, you believe she thought that, right? Like, she just like, okay. And then we just talk about it. It's the, it's the coolest thing. It's the coolest thing to experience that. And I, I know that it's hard. We'll, we'll for sure link, um, in the show notes to the Therapy Connect, the two videos though. So one with the Therapy Connect, we had 9 therapists that came, which was incredible. They were, they were also— oh, it was such a great event.

Oh yeah, so good.

We did it. So we did a Q&A So we recorded all of that, and then we did this— we have this little overview video too. Um, and the cool thing about it is like, even if you're listening to this and you're not anywhere near North Dakota, um, most of these therapists offer primarily virtual, or at least they offer virtual sessions. Yes. And what's cool about that is we just wanted to kind of reduce some of that initial barrier of the first conversation. It's like dating, it's, it's awkward the first time you sit down with a therapist and you might not match with them.

And there's like Like, no, us as therapists, I mean, I can speak for a good portion of us, take zero offense to that.

Yes.

If I am not a good fit for you, let me help you find who is.

Amen. Right? Like, that's, that's the goal.

It's not about me and my needs, right? It's what do you need?

Yeah. Like, that's the whole thing. And people, but see, people don't, we just need to keep talking about that. I think that's how we kind of normalize it and say it's okay if you meet with someone, they're just not your vibe.

Yep.—

it doesn't mean something's wrong with you.

No.

And they also won't be offended because they don't— they don't need you, right? They're there to help you.

Yeah.

And if they're not the right match, they're not going to help you as beautifully as you'd be helped by somebody else.

My job is to work myself out of a job.

Correct. Right.

That's my goal ultimately, is for you to see me but not forever to need me.

Mm-hmm. I love that.

I love that.

So we'll link to those two things as additional resources. But as we wrap, I want to again Thank you for just existing at the same time as I do on the planet. Yeah, it's pretty great. And you're only, you know, an hour away. It's just a— it's just truly a pleasure to know you. So as we, as we kind of come to our natural conclusion, thank you for driving over and being here. What's— is there anything we haven't covered? Is there anything I haven't asked that would be helpful to our listeners as as they navigate just that daily onslaught of things they could be giving their time and energy to.

No, I think you did a great job of covering all the bases, and we, we did a lot in that hour there.

We did, we did. Okay, well, thank you again for coming. Thank you for being here. Thank you for doing the work that you do.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Because I think the more we continue to talk about the fact that mental health is not this separate weird It's there. The stigma around it should just be gone, in my opinion. It won't be until we continue to do this, but just thank you for normalizing it.

Yeah.

And, and it, because it is, this is just how we do life better. Mm-hmm.

I think when we met you said to me, can we be friends? And I'd like to answer your question. I think, I think we're gonna be great friends. Good.

I, you know what, as, so I, have you ever heard people say, I don't need more friends? I always do, Anna. I always need new friends, especially ones like you.

Yeah.

Okay, so come back and see us soon.

Okay, thank you.

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