S6:E8 - Wisdom From 30 Years of Economic Development with Bob Wurl

You are listening to the Growing Small Towns Show, a podcast dedicated to supporting you, the person who really cares about the future of your small town. We believe when people get better, everything gets better, and our episodes offer the ideas and actions that prioritize people and small communities. Thank you for listening. We're so glad you're here. Our guest on today's episode is Bob Wirle. Bob Wirle is somewhat of a local legend in our parts of the country here in North Dakota. Bob has been an active— he's just a very active community member in a community just a few doors down from where we're recording in the town of Hankinson, North Dakota. He shows up for his community in a variety of ways, but we talk a lot about his role leading a local community bank and then his active role, not just as you hear, he's a banker, so he's the treasurer of everything, not just as the treasurer of their local CDC or what we would consider like an economic development group, but truly we talk about the innovation, the out-of-the-box thinking, and what he had, we had talked, we had brought Bob up on a previous episode, the one that we talked about with Justin Neppl. We'll go ahead and link that one in the show notes. And he chuckled that I used the word scrappy to describe their CDC. But we go into some detail. This is a long episode, and you know why? It's because I felt I felt such a reverence for Bob's approach to the work, his years of experience in this work. And I seriously thought, like, why would I cut— why would I ever cut this interview short? Why would I ever deny any of us the ability to learn from somebody who's been around the block a couple of times in this work? I just feel so fortunate. So we go through— he shares a lot of really cool examples, some of the things that he loved working on. And all I hope is with this one, we can just take a moment and show some respect for the people that have been showing up for decades in our communities like Bob has in his. And it's not just that, "Yay, like, he's a local legend. Isn't this cool?" It's truly the fact that every single one of our communities has somebody like Bob in it. And I really hope that after this episode, you look for the Bob in your town and take a minute just to thank them for showing up in the ways that they show up. We talk a bit about the generations. We talk about, you know, what he sees coming next. We could say a lot, like there's a lot of stuff that gets thrown around about generations, right? A lot of people say kind of garbage things about the young generation, but I'm not gonna lie, as much shade gets thrown at the boomers, right? And Bob is a baby, he's a proud baby boomer. And this conversation, I hope, also just highlights that we have to be really careful to not assume assume that because they're of an older generation, a person doesn't like change, will resist change, can't be open-minded, can't be innovative, because Bob is absolutely all of those things. This is a long intro to a long episode, but I hope that you hear just his— even though he's coming up on kind of the end of some of these parts of his career, you can hear his passion, his enthusiasm, and his pride. For his town. So if after listening to this, you don't decide to be like Bob, whatever, that's too bad. I really think that should be a takeaway, #BeLikeBob. But also, again, find the Bob and thank them for showing up because man, I enjoyed this time with him. I always do. I'm so glad he made the trek over to share his wealth of wisdom with us. We're just so lucky. Enjoy the heck out of this one. I know I sure did. Here is our friend, Bob Wirle. It's Bob Wirle from Hankinson, North Dakota.

Good morning, Rebecca.

Good morning, Bob. So you've been called out on our show before.

That's what I've heard.

I know. Last time Justin Neppl from the Wahpeton area was here, he was like, you got to get Bob on the show. I guess when Justin speaks, the universe conspires to make it happen, huh?

I was going to say, I'll have to seek him out and thank him in an appropriate way.

Yeah, exactly. Well, it's awesome to have you over here. So why don't we start with a little bit— well, I was going to say a little bit of background. We've got all the time in the world, Bob, but maybe for our listeners, just give them some perspective on who you are in the community of Hankinson. And you can kind of start wherever and I'll just ask questions. You start where you want.

All right. Well, I grew up in Hankinson, went off to college, have a degree in accounting, business administration with a major in accounting. And that senior year in college, went back after Christmas break, a couple of weeks back, and one of the gentlemen from the bank in Hankinson called me and asked me if I had a job lined up and what I was going to do after college. I said, well, I've been doing some interviewing, but no, I don't have anything lined up. And he said, well, have you ever thought about coming back to Hankinson? Obviously, I said no.

And can I quick interject? Was that an immediate no? Like, had you truly— was it truly for you that you just could not imagine yourself there?

Not so much that I couldn't imagine myself there, but given my degree, it was a job. It was a job, right? I really didn't. Think a community that size, not necessarily because it was Hank, considering where I grew up, it's just that that really wouldn't be a place where I would end up.

Sure.

So his follow-up question was, well, have you ever thought about working at the bank? No, I hadn't ever thought about that. And so he said, well, next time you come home, why don't you stop in and let's visit a little bit. So, I had— his son and I graduated from high school together. And so, you know, had known him and obviously was the banker in town and my folks had dealt with him and so forth. So, I come home and we had a conversation and a couple of conversations and ends up they had someone that had announced about a year ahead that he was going to retire when he reached a certain age. And so, they were trying to find someone that would come to work prior to his retirement. And so kind of get trained in or get to know the ropes and whatnot. So long story short, 45 years, 46 years, I'm still there. I had just stepped— so I served as president and CEO of the bank for 30 years, stepped down as president about a year ago, but still remain CEO and chairman. With a little bit limited office schedule compared to what I had been doing, but—

Giving you the freedom to drive over to Oaks, eh?

Drive to Oaks and do podcasts and things like that on Monday or Friday. Yeah. So the rest of it just kind of evolved, I think, being in the community. One of the first things, the gentleman that hired me, the local ambulance, the volunteer ambulance service was looking for a treasurer. So, you know, if you work in the bank, you're automatically kind of the treasurer of every organization. Organization you belong to in town. So it kind of started, I got involved in that role at the ambulance and started going to Commercial Club, which is the organization in Hankinson that business owners belong to. We don't call it a chamber, doesn't act as a chamber, but it essentially serves the same purpose. Sure. So got involved in that, started going to monthly meetings. And I think some, at some point after that, the guy that hired me retired, left, and he had been on the local development corporation, of course, as the treasurer. So, naturally, the remaining board members of the development corp thought it was important to have someone from the bank on the board. So I came on the board of the Hankinson CDC. And that was— oh, we responded to quite a number of RFPs coming out of the state, several ag processing plants and so forth. But finally, so Guardian— what's today Guardian Energy, the ethanol plant, was really kind of our claim to fame, or the one project we presented to that actually located in Hankinson.

Yeah, it was one of your guests, right?

So, but it was early on we had presented. So it's the, what's the Cargill plant in Wahpeton now. We had, Hankinson was one of the 3 finalists in North Dakota. They were looking at a Minnesota site, South Dakota site, and then Fargo, Wahpeton, Hankinson on the North Dakota side. And we had, so I'm on the CDC board at this point, maybe a year.

So what year was this?

Boy, I—

Like a long time ago, right? I mean, yeah, because you've been—

25 years ago, I suppose.

Yeah, like late, maybe late '90s or early 2000s. Okay.

Mid-'90s, maybe.

Wow.

So we're sitting at a CDC board meeting and we're trying to— so the state's approach was we wanted to show from the state of North Dakota, they wanted to show the difference primarily in taxes, fees, and how things are handled. But the advantage of siting in North Dakota versus Minnesota or South Dakota. But there were 3 sites in North Dakota. So the presentation to the company was, was done at a hotel in Fargo, and the state, the governor presented what the state incentives would be. And then each community had an opportunity to do an oral presentation about their site. So as we were planning for that, we're sitting at a CDC meeting. I'm the, I'm the new guy, right? I've been on there a year. These other guys have been on there 15, 20 years as directors. I'm also the secretary, so I'm taking notes and it's like, so who's going to do this presentation? And there's deadpan silence.

Yeah.

And I look up from my notepad and they're all staring at me and they said, well, you have to do it. And I said, well, that seems unfair to the community and to me. And they just said, well, They hired you at the bank. So you must have some qualities that would lead into this, don't you? Yeah. So that's kind of how I got baptized maybe into economic development. And it's just kind of, it's fun. You know, it can be very discouraging at points because you just, you kind of go through cycles. Sometimes you just respond to projects and present to them, never hear back from them. And some of the projects never come to fruition if they're startups.

Right.

Or they site someplace else. And so you kind of feel exhausted that you've put in all this effort and nothing happens. And then, you know, then what's now Guardian Energy sited there, which was a huge economic boost for our community, but also, you know, helps organizations like the CDC to really want to keep going.

Right, right. Okay, I want to go back to just a couple things in your history that I think is interesting. So I feel like you represent, well, a soon-to-be leaving the workforce generation. I mean, you do, you're a baby boomer. Generationally. And I think that community banks play such a critical and important role. You officially were in a position to support economic development, but I think banks, community banks just in general do. And I think that there's a— this is just maybe my wishful thinking, but when I think about, you know, who's going to replace this important group of people that have decades of experience? It's probably not going to be with people with decades of experience, right? Because that's not how this works. So, I think there's a lot of fear, not just in community banking, but just in the workplace in general, right? That this enormous glut of people are going to retire and we're replacing them with people with like zero experience. Or, you know, so we perceive them to have zero experience. So, I think that there's a cool opportunity to kind of really tell the story of what a meaningful work experience community banking provides in a town like Hankinson. Because, okay, so for our listeners, how big is Hankinson?

Hankinson's about a little over 900 people. Okay. Yeah, I thought it was under 1,000, but yeah, it's under 1,000, which is a little deceiving. We have a significant population that lives full-time around Lake Elsie, which is a couple miles southwest of town, right? And so they're not counted in the city's population, but for all practical purposes, they You know, their—

that's the community. Yeah. Okay. So I think I would love your perspective on just what your role in community banking, how, what it allowed you to do. You know, obviously you got into— and yeah, it was because you could be their treasurer. Let's be real. Like, you had a role to play. But I just feel like there's a lot of your story that's wrapped into your role at Lincoln State Bank, what you did, how the bank showed up in different ways. And so can you talk a little bit about community banking almost as an economic development driver, even if you're not officially on those boards?

Right, right. You know, well, it's an interesting concept. I think so. Obviously, our bank is a family-owned bank. I always quickly qualify that saying not my family. I was fortunate. I've been treated very well.

You were adopted.

I stayed there 45 years.

Adopted into the family.

But the first non-family member to be president of the bank. But I think community banking, even amongst neighboring independent community banks and independent banks, there's a— There's just a camaraderie. There's philosophically, we're kind of different than the franchised institutions.

The big guys.

Even though we might have branches, several branches in different communities. But I think that that small organization, you know, you see that in advertising or in different articles maybe about We like to promote, you know, we're your local bank here. You know, we sit next to you in church on Sunday morning. We're at the pancake breakfast fundraiser or the spaghetti feed, you know, because we're part of the community. We live right in the community. And we're making— the people that are making the decisions about loan requests, other activities in the community are people living in those communities. It's not just that the local market president lives there or probably likely may not, maybe lives in Fargo, lives somewhere else, commutes in, and the staff live in the community. But I think when you have a, you know, the majority of your board members are living in or around that community, your employees, your senior management are part of that community. And in our case, you know, my example is not unusual. We have several employees that went off to college and maybe, you know, did something else, but for whatever reason came back to Hankinson and we've hired them. A great example is we just hired a CFO kind of when I stepped down and we were looking to reorganize management, but a young man that grew up but actually across the alley from the bank, interned for us during one summer between his junior and senior year in college, went on to be a state bank examiner for 6 years, but had an interest in coming back to his hometown, to a smaller community. And so he's come to work for us almost a year now. So I think the mindset And I think it's important, you know, the challenge as the banker in the group, as you said, at a CDC board meeting, and this was quite— this has happened a number of years ago to Dave Paulson, who owned Lakeview Supper Club, which is— there was a supper club on Lake Elsie. It's not there anymore. But he was on the board. And so oftentimes our board meeting would be out at the supper club off in a side room. And then if he got busy at the supper club, he could jump up and help out for a little bit and join us again and so forth. But we're sitting around after a meeting having a drink or two and just talking about— and so the other 4 board members are sitting there and they start talking about, well, did you hear that Rebecca was going to buy this building in Oaks and, you know, gut it? Create this whole, whole new space. And, and one of the other one would say, yeah, yeah, I kind of heard something about that, but I don't know what she's going to do in there. And so they're all— four of them are in this conversation, and I'm noticeably silent, right? And so finally one of them turns to me and says, you probably know the answer to all of these questions, don't you? And I— my response was simply, I really don't know what you guys are talking about. And obviously, I knew all about what they were talking. What was interesting to me is because I got to hear what all the buzz was on Main Street and then I knew what the actual facts were. But I think that brings value. The value that brings to an organization like the CDC is because of that background, I do know a lot of things about what different individuals are planning to do or wanting to do or trying to do. And so I have to watch carefully about that confidentiality line. But it also helps, I think, helps our CDC as I can throw out just a generic suggestion is, you know, maybe you should stop down and visit with Joe.

Right.

Right. And if that is true, what you're hearing, you know, how could we help him make that happen or or so forth. So I think the engagement by the banker is important for economic development. And because the bank success really is totally reliant on the success of those people in the community. And not just from the commercial perspective, it's on the ag side. So again, a number of years ago, with a group of farmers, and it's kind of one of, well, Well, every year is kind of a gamble, right? Your husband farms. So, right. You know, but they're saying, you know, I don't remember the details if it was a drought or what, but there was some concern about what the crops were going to be and what yields were going to do. And he says to me, well, you know, but you don't have to worry about things like that because, you know, you get a paycheck at the end of the month regardless of, you know, whether commodity prices are high or it rains or floods or doesn't rain and so forth. And I looked at him and I said, No, I'm concerned about you because not only am I concerned about you being successful, I've got about 200 other guys that are borrowing money that need to be successful in order to repay their loan or I'm not going to be there either.

Right.

I mean, maybe the bank won't be there.

Right. It seems like your paycheck might be guaranteed, but it certainly isn't in the sense of, yeah, like if everybody fails.

So I think that also kind of plays back that role of the community bank because you are invested in the community. It's your community. You're living there. So I think you, or at least in my case, I've tried to seek out other programs that can assist, especially on the commercial side. So how could the bank do this deal if there was some— some of the risk was mitigated or shared? And so that's kind of the approach from a banking side that I've tried to kind of seek out and be knowledgeable or find out what programs are out there and how they could fit.

What I love and appreciate so much about that is because obviously here in North Dakota, we have a state-controlled bank. Really uncommon. I mean, obviously completely uncommon. We're the only one in the whole country. So there are amazing programs that local lenders can partner with the Bank of North Dakota to make, make things just more doable. Like, I have one of those programs with this building. There's absolutely no way I would be making all of this work it today, right, without the flex-paced buydown. So, but what I also have just always admired and appreciated about you is your willingness to truly go that extra mile because a lot of times those programs, I mean, because there's a profitability standard for you as a banker. I was on the retail side. I started my career in banking way back when. I want to— try to remind me, too, to come back to the comment about credit and who's making those decisions, because I actually did have a small stint working for Wells Fargo. I think that is something we need to drive home to people to help them really understand that when you're— the people deciding on your credit, underwriting your credit, approving your credit, when they are your neighbors, it is a completely different ballgame than when it's not. But profitability is a big deal. And so a lot of times these programs that are good for your borrower, I mean, you know, like I just named one, but this Bank of North Dakota, they're very, very time-consuming for you as the lender. And you had a reputation when I first got to know you or first was told your name, you have a reputation for being one of those bankers that truly goes above and beyond to make sure that you've exhausted every potential program that could help a person get started, especially a business owner. And that's not common, Bob. I don't think that's common. I think that a lot of times, uh, and I'm not— I'm not— this isn't a criticism of anybody because I understand that profitability matters, right? But can you share it all? Because I think that's I alluded to this earlier, this kind of gap that we may be seeing in certain industries because so much tenure and so much veteran knowledge, tribal knowledge maybe, is going to be leaving the workforce. That's a perspective that I, that I think you uniquely hold. And I want to make sure that young people coming up think about it that way, because I actually think it's super important for our communities that the bankers in our communities think the way that you do. So, can you speak to that a little bit? I mean, you literally just said you would exhaust, you know, you would try to find anything to make it work. But how did you balance that with the time consumption on some of those loans?

Well, some of my coworkers might argue that, yeah, I put in too much time on any particular file, but I think it's— and maybe this is a different focus of community banking, of that small hometown institution versus the Wells Fargos or other organizations of their size— is we're not publicly traded. We don't have an earnings mark that has to be announced at the end of the quarter or shareholders are going to sell. Or, you know, where I think our view tends to be more futuristic and long-term. And so I bring that back in when you come in with that loan application. Am I going to participate that with Bank of North Dakota? You know, you mentioned the FlexPACE program is just— we use it as whenever we can. Fabulous program for the bank because your rate gets bought down, but the bank still gets the market rate.

Right.

So, it is an incredible— we get compensated for some of the extra time that we put into that program or when we use that program. But I've always had the view that if I can assist you when you're starting out in your business by matching you up, let's just use Flex Pays. Bank of North Dakota requires that they participate at least at 50% of the loan amount. So if it's $100,000, we have to participate at least $50,000 to them. And it can be up to 80%. But I know a number of bankers and independent bankers that are good friends of mine have historically looked at that as a Bank of North Dakota as a competitor for loan volume. So yes, you're giving up half of that loan or more. In loan volume. But my perspective has always been, if that interest rate buydown enables you to succeed—

Makes your business work. Yeah.

And to be a stronger borrower for the 50% I have on my balance sheet, and you're successful, 5 to 7 years from now, you're going to come back to me and ask for more money because you're going to expand. And maybe we use that same program again, maybe we use a different program. Maybe you're so successful, you don't really need some of those outside programs to make things work. And so now I've— because I've worked to get you in that lower-cost program at the beginning, who are you going to be loyal to when you need more money to expand?

Right.

Are you going to shop around or are you going to come and talk to us first?

Right.

You know, and I think it's— It's that opportunity to create a successful business by using these incentives, which doesn't yield as much maybe back to the bank at that time. But I think from a long-term perspective, what that means to the community and all the benefits your business, you know, brings to other members of the business community and the general public, or maybe you're providing a service that actually encourages people to locate in Hankinson rather than Oaks or Wapiton or wherever. Right. Because there are maybe medical services and other amenities there that are more attractive than other— of course, we like to— we can't leave this podcast without throwing our friend Nathan under the bus a little bit. So that's Hankinson likes to seek out, unique ways to identify our new housing development, how that's different than the one in Colfax. And of course, I always remind him Colfax has a ton of bedrooms.

Yes.

Hankinson has bedrooms, plus they have all these other amenities like a pharmacy and a clinic and a hardware store and a grocery store.

I'm sure he really dislikes that when you say that, Bob. Do you say it every time you see him?

Well, not every time, because, you know, after a while you have to come up with new material.

Yeah, exactly.

But so, you know, I just think that's some of the benefits of that. And, you know, there's a lot of other programs out there too. Bank of North Dakota has a number of programs on the ag side too, right? That help at times like what we're going through now with commodity prices and some of the disasters. And so forth.

Yeah, I just, I think you're, I mean, again, I think you are just one of those people that has always viewed your role. There's so much generosity in the way you approach not just your role at the bank, because that was just incredibly generous, right? And also thinking beyond, it's basically takes your job to me anyway, from being transactional You know, like a loan, one loan is not a transaction. It's so much more than that in terms of just all of the ways that that person's success impacts everybody in a community like Hankinson, you know, with 1,000 people. It's a really big deal if people are successful or not. And I just think when, you know, again, I, I'm not officially doing economic development in our community anymore, but I still think about it a lot, right? I think about all of these things and I just think community banks in particular, have such a cool opportunity to make an enormous impact on— and their success, it really— we do need them to be successful. Because their generosity too, I mean, they pay for things, and they sponsor things, and they show up, and they show up with their people. And you've just been such a great example of that. And I think back to the credit thing, when I went to work— and I don't— I'm not throwing Wells Fargo under the bus here. It truly just wasn't the right fit for me, right? In my brain, I was young, I was in my early 20s, and I thought, oh my gosh, I can, I can be in this big establishment where there's all this room for upward mobility. Like, that was my naive thought. And I had gone from a regional bank in Fargo. We moved out to Montana and I worked for Wells Fargo out there for about a year. And I had lending authority. I mean, this is just something, you know, as a banker you would get that, right? And I, I, I had, earned the trust of the people that ran our bank in Fargo. It was a regional bank, right? And I go to Wells Fargo and I mean, not— and I was securities licensed too. And, you know, I go out there and I was just, it was like none of it mattered because the entire, I felt like the entire training program, it was just so anybody could successfully do banking. So all of my experience almost felt like it didn't have anywhere to go. It was really, it was a painful working experience. Also, you know, I had lending authority. So now I'm, now I'm having to run every loan that I used to be able to write up a flagpole and fight them. You know, like there was a couple, there was this one particular guy, his name was Scott. And the reason I even remember his name is because he was a really special guy. Like I loved him so much. He came into our bank and he always wore this t-shirt that said Great Scott on it, which I thought was very punny and hilarious. And all he wanted was a home equity loan, Bob. Like, it was not that big of a deal. Loan-to-value was great. Like, all these things, right? And so, for me, what I think a community bank can do that a Wells Fargo can't, you know, when I first got into banking, I learned about the 5 C's of credit. And one of them is character. Character isn't a factor when you're in a bank that large, right?

Right.

And in a community bank, character gets to mean something. And relationships matter and who that person is actually gets to matter. And that's, that's why I just think it's so exciting. And I hope that, I hope that this, hope that every banker in a community bank that's getting ready to retire hears this episode and shares it with the person that they want to like succeed them in the bank. Because I just think banking is a really cool way to make a huge impact on your community in a town like ours, you know, smaller towns. So anyway, I just— you're such a great example of that. And I think I'm excited to see if people pick up that ball and run with it the way that your generation did, because we need them to.

So it's, yeah, it's interesting. We, um, uh, so obviously we're— we just had an FDIC exam, uh, within the last couple of weeks. So one of the things that we, uh, encourage our loan officers. What we're often criticized by regulatory agencies in small banks is we're not very good about documenting, you know, because I had this conversation with you at coffee or at lunch, or I bumped into you at the grocery store. And so I know this about your business because you shared that with me when we bumped into each other. I don't necessarily go back and put that in a loan file, you know, in a comment section.

Right.

Or add that information. And so because we know everybody and we know the history, especially if you stick around as long as I have, right? You know, you know the history of that business and so forth. We don't document that well. So as an examiner picking up the file, it's like, why in the— would they have done this loan? Or, you know, right. And so we identify very specifically You know, if this extension of credit has— is not within the parameters of our policy and— but here's why it was approved anyway. So we try to be more careful in documenting that. And part of that is that history. Yeah, this guy might have a low credit score. You know, the loan-to-value might not be exactly where we like it. But he's been our customer for 25 years, has had a loan every one of those 25 years, has had money borrowed, and has never failed to make his payment. Right. Plus, you know what's going on with that borrower typically personally. So, yeah, in a Wells Fargo setting, obviously—

None of those, they can't.

They can't.

And so it's not, it isn't, it seriously is not a dissing. It's just for me, I am built for relationships, right? I am. That is who I am at my core. And I couldn't do right by Scott. And we, he should, we should, and having to deliver that declination was awful, Bob. I cried. I cried more on my drive.

You were probably more disappointed than he was.

Well, I cried more on my drive to that work situation. And again, it wasn't that they had done anything wrong. It just wasn't the right environment for a person like me. And I didn't— and it was also just such a crushing blow because I thought there was so much opportunity. And truly, there probably would have been if I could have just like gutted that whole experience out. But oh my word, it was just not meant for me.

So getting back to your question a little bit about the baby boomers and exiting the workforce and the new workforce coming in, it is going to be interesting to see what happens. And so some things that I've observed over— my role during my career is— and this is probably different in smaller communities versus larger communities because even those young borrowers know at least who the people in the bank are. They may not feel like they know them well, but at least they know who they are because as we have hired younger you know, younger people have come on board. And as our customer base gets younger, our business owners are younger. We're doing some remodeling in our bank lobby in Hankinson right now. So we're taking that teller line from 4 teller windows to 2 because we just don't have the foot traffic, you know, between electronic transactions, drive-up. And whatnot. You just don't have that people, that number of people coming in and out of the lobby.

You're literally incentivizing them not to, right?

Right.

I mean, that's, then that's all banking, you know, so all financial institutions.

And our waiting area, right, in the lobby, right, is being reduced significantly. We're using that space in a different way, right? But when I started at the bank, uh, 1980, Your husband's going to come in and wants to talk about renewing his line of credit for the season, right? He's just going to come in and sit down and he's going to wait until I'm available to see him. Right. Today's world, people don't do that.

Nobody does that, right?

They've either emailed you, called and made an appointment, right? Or most of my younger commercial guys text me.

Yeah, right.

Are you in the bank today? Or do you have time to see me this afternoon? Or What's your schedule this week?

That's so interesting, isn't it?

They reach out in a different way to schedule an appointment, but yet when they come about talking about their business, they want to do it face to face. Right. They still prefer that conversation to happen in person. So, it'll be interesting now with, you know, the young man that we just hired, but as our, you know, as the bankers, are younger coming in and replacing the baby boomers. What is that going to look like going forward? Is at some point, you know, I do Teams meetings, but it kind of frustrates me when I turn my computer on that Microsoft insists that Teams load every morning, whether I want them to.

Amen, Bob. I know. I'm just like, quit. I don't know. I don't have any Teams meetings scheduled today. Go away.

Yeah, I'll load the software when I have a meeting.

So we share that frustration. Yeah, it is, it's going to be, it is going to be interesting. And I think, I just think a couple of things that, you know, research is showing about these, these younger generations coming into the workforce is that they're, they're actually quite purpose-driven humans. And so I just think it's, again, it's going to be incumbent upon banks in particular to, to tell the story of what community banking, what that career can be and tie it to purpose, you know, because again, I think like you, it's helping them understand that you're not just doing loans, you're not just taking deposits. What you're doing is creating these relationships that when, especially for, you know, on the commercial side or the ag side, right? That these people then fuel our entire economy, right? And just, Helping them get that bigger picture of how important their role really is. I think there's a lot of room for that. And also, I mean, everybody knows it's, you can't just, for the most part, you can't just post an open position and have 15 applicants for it. Like that wasn't, I mean, it wasn't that long ago that that was a reality for people. And now, you know, because all of the, you know, decades of experience are retiring, everybody's kind of fighting for that same talent, right? Because it's not just industry-specific anymore.

Right.

So, it's just really interesting what that change is looking like. And so, I think it's actually, it's incumbent upon every business to think about how do we tell the story of what it's like to work here? But I just think community banks have such a cool opportunity.

And I think it's the, And not just in banking, but as an example, so our senior lender is a couple of years younger than I am, but he's retiring here within the next couple of months. But his story is similar to mine. I mean, out of college, we identified him as a local, family grew up locally, Aggie con degree. He came on board. Just like I did, you know, you're going to get a couple years experience, you're going to move on, and then all of a sudden 40 years has gone by. You know, so he's worked at the bank his entire career as well. I think what we're seeing is younger people today, they don't necessarily— aren't going to work in the same industry their entire career, let alone the same employer their entire career. And they they want to try different things. They want to experience different work opportunities. So how that all plays out and are you going to— so at what point, if you got these people that were sticking around 30 to 40 years and now is that going to be 5 or 10 years? And then you're rehiring, training. How that all plays out is going to be interesting. I think the other thing about not— it's just different with the generation. But I think something else about the baby boomers, and getting back to the community thing, is we're just naturally— maybe how the times when we grew up or whatever, it was just much more about community. And not so much about what they're going to attain or what they're going to experience. You know, which from my perspective, being the old guy, I mean, is what kind of what I've seen is, is, okay, you know, Bob, you should be treasurer of the ambulance because that's, that's— they need somebody that understands, you know, finances and so forth. But it's a great way for you to get engaged with people in the community and learn to, you know, give back or participate in areas needed within the community. Where I see it today, I mean, this is not— I'm not stereotyping because we— I can also give you, you know, half a dozen examples right off the top of my head of young people that are in our community now.

That are really stepping up.

That are stepping up. Right.

Right.

And especially in the fire department, the number of young men that have put in 8 weekends of training to get that firefighter status and committed to that fire department is amazing. You know, but we've, we're starting to see a few younger people get engaged at the city council level, you know, but we need more. We need that generation to really step up and want to become part of the leadership within the community. Right. You know, and not that that's someone else's role or somebody else's responsibility. No, it's your responsibility now. This generation is exiting those roles.

It's really hard. This is a hard dynamic that exists in every town I feel like I've ever been in or talked to. People say it all the time, like, nobody wants to volunteer. Nobody wants— nobody's showing up, right? And I think there are some generational things at play. I mean, your generation and the generations before you, civic engagement was just embedded into what you did, right? And so now I think what we have to also— I always try to take a generous perspective on it because I think where we get in trouble, all of us, any of our communities, is when we demonize young people for not stepping up. It's more we need to get curious and ask, and ask why, or, you know, what's going on, or what's keeping you from it. And honestly, we have to just recognize that, that we are inundated with just so much more stuff, you know, like there's so many more things. If I, if I didn't ever want to stay home, Bob, I wouldn't ever have to stay home, right? Unfortunately, like, that's just the truth. Besides, you know, not even— that's not even factoring in the things that I actually volunteer for. It's just running with our kids, right? There's just so much stuff. And so how do we help people navigate that? And how do we find out what they'd like to give their time, talents, skills to, right? And there's no one person that takes that role in any community. That's what's hard about this. It's kind of any of us that see it as a problem, we all have to say, well, how can I— what can I do, right? How can I contribute? To move that needle. Because shaming them, guilting them, it's not going to work. It doesn't work. And I really wouldn't recommend it. I mean, if they do show up, they're not going to be happy about it. Right?

Yeah, it's— this is really nothing to do, not so much with a generational thing. But so one of, one of the, one of my previous volunteer jobs included I was the, the leader of the high school youth group at church. And, you know, back in at that time, as far as the number of kids that were eligible just by virtue of their age, their high school age in our, in our congregation was somewhere in that 30 to 35 people. So I'd get—

that's a big group.

I'd get 20, you know, 20 kids there, 22. And it's like, You kind of start asking, well, you know, where's so-and-so, where's so-and-so? And I had, I had read an article at some point during that time period where— so what's that message when I ask that to the group? What's the message they're hearing? It doesn't matter that I'm here. He's just wondering where Susie is in here.

Right.

And so I kind of— that mindset is, is making the people that did show up feel important and that you're excited that they came.

Right.

And then I think that's so valuable with them if, you know, if they enjoyed coming or some of the activities that we did is, well, you know, invite a friend. It doesn't even have to be a member of our congregation in that age group. If you just got some other friends in high school, invite them. I mean, we did specific events where to invite high school kids from other— in town, regardless of what church they went to or if they didn't go to church. Right. Right. So I think, yeah, I agree. The approach that we use with those young people is not to shame them into them or, you know, if you're not doing this, that's wrong.

Right.

But trying to understand from their perspective what would make it attractive for them to want to be involved or to let them know, yeah, this is the way it's always been done, but—

Yeah, if you have different ideas.

If you've got a different idea, take it and run with it and we'll try and support you instead of sitting there, you know, we tried that in 1982 and we did it again in 1997 and then in 2004 it failed again and so I don't know why you would ever want I don't want to even try and do that again. Well, it's a whole different group, right?

And we're in a whole different time. And they're not going to do it.

The core idea might be the same, but it's going to be different. So, I think as that generation that's exiting some of the involvement is we just, we need to respect them and what their visions are for the future and what they enjoy doing as that 25-year-old.

Relinquishing control and kind of loosening the reins is a really hard thing to do if you've led something for decades. I mean, I really, I get it and I understand it and it has to happen. That's it. So I just appreciate that so much coming from somebody who's been in some of these things for years, right? It is, it's just, it's so easy to get cynical about who's not showing up. Or who's not getting involved. And it's just, it really does. It's again, this opportunity instead to look at the people that are there and, and really pour into them. We talk about that a lot because we host a lot of things here. And man, sometimes it's frustrating, Bob, you know, like you'll just be like, are you kidding? We like tried so hard and no, like almost nobody came, but it's never nobody. And so what if it's 2 people? Like, so then those two people, we get to focus on giving those two people the most incredible, very personalized experience, probably, right? Like, but that's, I just, that's a mindset shift that I think we all need to make because it, it can, well, and I think too, I just wanna say that for anybody that's listening to this that feels that and they're very frustrated that nobody else is stepping up that feeling, um, we all have to do what we need to do to protect our own sanity and mental health. Those boundaries are important too. So if you're, if you're actually on the edge of burning out, you get to make different choices too, right? And I know it's hard, this feeling of like, if I don't do it, who'll do it? Well, the answer might be nobody. And then your community has to decide if they care about that thing enough to bring, either bring it back or resurrect it, or somebody else will step up. It might look different, you know, all of those things. But there's just a natural evolution to some of that. And I think sometimes we cling too tightly to—

it brings up a couple thoughts. One of it is I think people look at, you know, whether it's that youth group leader or whatever, but out of respect. So if you say, you know, I don't— I want to be done with this. I really don't want to do this anymore. But if you can't find anybody else, so out of respect, because you've done it for so long, a lot of people just that probably do, would have an interest in trying it. But out of respect, it's like, well, no, they've done it for 10, 15 years or whatever it is. And so I'm not— I don't want to step on their toes or I don't want to insult them and so forth. So we tend to— sometimes you just need to, like you said, just know I'm not going to do it. If no one picks it up and runs with it, maybe it wasn't that important.

Right? I know that's very hard for people to hear and to kind of hold. But if it's important, it will get picked up, you know, if it's important to enough people. That's— nobody should kill themselves for something, right? And it just sometimes feels like that's what ends up happening. And it's unfortunate. So, okay, let's talk a little bit about just Hankinson in general, because your community is often— I mean, that's why when Justin was here, we were talking about, you know, previously when he worked for Southern Valley and he did work in Hankinson, he often just— I mean, I remember when I first actually was in economic development here in Oaks, and he was like, have you met Bob Worrell? And I was like, nope, don't know who Bob Worrell is. And obviously, it's not just you, but it's Hankinson in general. So can you share a bit about, you know, is there— what is the secret sauce, if you will, in Hankinson, your CDC group, which is the development corp? Is there a specific way that you behave or that you respond or that you act as a group that can give any knowledge or wisdom to those of us trying to make good things happen in our towns? Because you're, you're a standout community. Everybody says it. And when you drive into your community, you can feel it. There's a deep sense of pride in Hankinson.

Well, it— so we participated in this with Park River. We did the, the exchange where a group from Park River came in unannounced and observed. And I think Oaks has the same thing. But we should do that again, just because it's, you know, the people coming in see the community differently necessarily than the way you do, especially if you're a guy like me that grew up in the community. I was gone, really the only time I was gone was 4 years of college. But, you know, I don't know if we have a secret sauce. I'd love to bottle it and sell it if we did. Yeah.

As a fundraiser.

Do more economic development. But I think there is— some of it is a mindset and some of it— we've had this conversation with different people through the years, but I don't know if some of it is an ethnic background where trying to maintain— just people, they want to maintain their property. They want it to look nice. They want it, you know, keep the lawn mowed, the hedge trimmed, and that kind of thing. But I think it's just the mindset that we've been able to maybe continue on is this idea of change. And our community has changed significantly. I mean, at one time we were 1,100, 1,200 people not so long ago. You know, a few decades ago. And so we've— we're not— we're 900,000. But I think it's that we don't want to— we're going to change. We need to change, but we need to grow. And that doesn't— maybe that isn't necessarily in population.

Right.

But we're growing as what we offer, that we're offering amenities. We have retail items available, at least the critical items that are going to make people want to choose to live here, whether it's in retirement or as, as a younger person, really trying to identify what, what are those things that are key to keep the community viable to be able to have a grocery store, to have a pharmacy in town, to have a hardware store. What do we have to do to make sure there's enough people and enough consumption of those products and services that it's viable for that business to maintain a door, you know, an open door or storefront in this community? Again, going back when I first got involved with CDC, and I think our CDC mindset has changed from the time I got on to where it is today, and some of that is very reflective on where we're at as a state, as just today's world. But, you know, back, I think when the CDC was formed, their sole purpose was to identify a manufacturing facility.

Really? Okay, this is fascinating.

And bring in a large industry or a larger industry into the community and that that was gonna save everything.

Large business attraction, major job creation.

Major job creation.

Right.

So it was, you know, there was, and I think historically we responded probably to more ag processing type facilities versus just strictly manufacturing, although we did respond to those RFPs too. You know, but whether it was back in the early days, it was a sunflower crushing plant and it was several different corn processing plants and soybean facilities. But there were some manufacturing ones too. But I think the mindset, because the— in the early days of the CDC, they went out And they purchased this quarter section of land immediately east of the city and annexed it in at that time. So if any industry, business, large employer did locate there, that it would be within the city limits so the city could control from a zoning and ordinance perspective. Plus also, you know, that valuation would come into the city for tax revenue. New generation. You know, and maybe because it seems like we concentrated so much on that. And I remember some comments here and there from existing business owners. It's like, well, we're struggling to stay open, or we want to expand, but we don't— we can't do it without some help. But you guys just focus on bringing other businesses to town. You don't care much about those of us that are already here. And so I think it's stepping back and thinking about that, but also, so when we were successful in getting the ethanol plant to site in Hankinson, then that forced us to kind of think about, so what other activities as a result of that, and now having 500 trucks.

How many jobs did that create? Does that facility bring to town?

I think when they opened, it was about 42, 43. They're up to now, they have about 54, 55, 56. And their announced expansion in the next 2 years, they're going to double the production capacity of the plant, which means 1,000 trucks a day.

Right.

Probably some corn coming in by rail, possibly. But adding another 25 to 30 jobs.

That's a huge deal.

That is a huge deal. So we're trying to— so with their original signing and today, so what are the spinoffs? What are 500 to 1,000 trucks a day? What are they going to need as they're delivering corn to the plant? So the LT's Truck Stop, which is a fuel servicing pumping station on literally off of Highway 11 on the west side of County Road 1 before you reach the ethanol plant. So easy in and out for a semi, right? So that's, that's one. And they approach and it was, it was a corn farmer from further away that was hauling his, his corn, I think 80 or 90 miles one way to deliver to that plant. And there was no decent place for him to pull in and get fuel. Right. So he, along with a partner, approached our CDC because we owned that land and developed it. They didn't ask for any other incentives, just that we'd help with the land and so forth. But so I think our mindset now is more about how do we— how can we augment that industry that's here and what that's— what are their needs or the people that are selling to, or they're selling the ethanol, the distillers grains, the workers.

Like all the workers that are going to be residents, right? Right.

And so, you know, we debated, gosh, it's 25, 28 years ago, our CDC bought this small tract of land within the city and developed a residential cul-de-sac. But we debated, is our role really housing? And this was before the city had a housing authority. And I mean, we kind of, at the end of the meeting, we kind of all looked at each other and if we don't do it, there's no one else that's going to do it.

Right. And you're in a position to do something about it, right?

So we bought the land, developed it, put in water and sewer, street, and created that small residential development. Now we've got the new one on the north side of town, Prairie Pines. 39 lots. I think there's about 15 or 16 homes up there now. But it's recognizing the other housing needs. So yeah, we've got some income-based apartment units, but we don't have much for apartments that's just market rates. The average person not ready to buy a house in today's world now, $400,000 homes.

Right.

You know, so what can we do to get existing homeowners that maybe to move into a rental situation so they don't have to maintain that home, which opens up an older home, smaller home, great starter homes for a younger family, or that would house new people coming into our community. So I think the housing authority that was originally formed, you know, F&L Development, all of these communities had that initial 4-plex to 8- or 12-plex. So our housing authority has just done a tremendous job. You know, they followed the model that's supposed to happen. That original 4-plex, I think they owned it about 12 years, 15 years, found a private investor to buy that. So it's back on the tax rolls.

It's the same with ours.

Turned around.

That project that was part of ours too is now owned privately. Wonderful. Yeah, it is. It's great.

And so then they went on to build a triplex and now most recently two twin homes that are fully rented and they're working with a private developer as we speak about the potential of them buying those properties. And our housing authority went last year, found a larger tract of land within the city. And purchased that and have replatted it, working with the city to bring in water and sewer needs according to the new plat. And they want to develop that into kind of a little twin home neighborhood because they've got more people that want to move into a rental situation and not own their own home.

It's such an important move. I mean, and all the research suggests that that's the move.

And for communities like ours, it's surprise, you know, and because some of the surrounding communities aren't doing that, haven't done that, you know, we've actually got people that have moved into those rentals that are not from Hankinson. They're not moving out of their home in Hankinson, which is fine. We want them occupied.

Right. Right.

And so that's some of that, again, is thinking back that our role as a community development corporation isn't just focusing on bringing an industry that's going to bring 50 or more jobs.

Well, and how many of those can you reasonably recruit?

Right.

Right? I mean, like, there's— you have 900 to 1,000 people that live in your town. So workforce is a huge challenge.

Right. And but I think one of the things, one of the benefits, it's not— It's not easy. Like you said, if you're not working on a big project as the CDC, it's like, well then—

What are we doing?

What are we doing and why do we have to meet and so forth? But I think by keeping your community name out there— so our mindset has always been if we get an RFP from Commerce, And here's the list of critical items for that industry. If we feel we can check off more than 50%, we're going to submit something, even though knowing we're probably not going to get—

Bob, that's really smart. That has not been our stance at all.

Our name is— we're not going to just say no.

Basically, we're open. We're open for business, right? We're open for business. That's what that does.

That's interesting.

I like that.

What's interesting is, and this is relatively recent, I mean, we had an inquiry come, and a lot of times it's coming through a broker or it's coming through some firm. So, you don't necessarily know what the industry is or who the company is. But we recently responded with some information to be supplied to a company. My gut tells me what that historical action has done is kept our name out there. So now you don't have to do so much, maybe going and seeking them.

Mm-hmm.

You're kind of on a radar screen knowing that Hankinson has significant resources in water. Right. They have a railroad that serves both mainline railroads, so there's access to both BNSF and CP. So what are those critical things that we do have, those resources that our site might provide? And so it's, you know, my experience tells me those companies know a lot more about you, about your community. By the time you realize they're looking at you, they know more about your community than you do, other than maybe you know, how many homes are for sale and what's the capacity of the school and that kind of thing.

The Growing Small Towns show is recorded locally at the Growing Small Towns podcast studio located in Oakes, North Dakota. It's produced by Pheasant Canteen Studio in Aberdeen, South Dakota, with marketing support from Cassidy Johnston. In Canyon City, Colorado. Our intro music was created and produced exclusively for Growing Small Towns by James Bergman, singer and songwriter from Fargo, North Dakota. Local and small, it's what we support and it's who we love. Get your community a shout out on the podcast. Call 701- 203-3337 and share your small town success that you just don't feel is being celebrated quite enough and let us shout you out. You can also share your biggest people challenge and we'll dedicate an episode to offering ideas to help. Hell, you can basically tell us anything and we'll do what we can to answer. We can't wait to hear from you.

So I think that's one approach is we're going to put the effort in knowing that going in, this would have to be really a crapshoot that we're going to even get on a shortlist. But we want people at Commerce to recognize our name, know where we're at, know what we have. So being deliberate about that. And then the comment that was made earlier about not taking care of or not kind of forgetting about the existing businesses that are there. We've tried to do some small things with storefront improvement grants. Sure. Encouraging business owners to do some projects, but also to just to try to let them know that if you are looking to expand or to move to a different location or something, you know, reach out to us and maybe we don't have a lot of financial support for you, but we can connect you with people, you know, whether it was SVITA back in the day, like Agassiz Regional Council. Yeah. And these other programs, we can get you connected and we can help you as much as you want us to be involved in what that looks like. And so that goes back, the advantage of having that community banker as part of your development group hopefully they're working with us, but—

Right.

Is also that the bank tends to know those programs and you might feel more comfortable coming to see me at the bank and sitting down one-on-one and talking about your business expansion rather than our—

Versus 5, a committee.

The entire board.

Yep. Right.

So we've done that. And the other thing that our CDC focus has really been on since we we haven't had a lot of large industry look for us and getting back is, I've said for years, we have ID Machine in Hankinson that started out as just basically a farm machining business, welders and that kind of thing, but has had a contract with Bobcat building parts for years. But they'd employed 10, 12, 14 people. I've always said I'd rather have 10 ID Machines.

Amen.

Than one business out here that employs 100 people and then there's a hiccup in their industry and they shut down.

Single points of failure are not good for our communities, right? Like, it's not, it's not good. And so it's interesting to me too that you, you were on the CDC when you kind of saw and felt and perceived that shift from big business attraction, right? Like, because I think still traditionally that's, that's the stuff that gets people most excited and I struggled with that in the sense of just like, but that's not what's going to keep people here. Granted, we need that too. It's not like you just take your eye off that ball entirely, but when you're either volunteering entirely in these jobs or maybe you're half-time or whatever, you do have to kind of decide what you're going to focus on. I think that's— I really love that you just are throwing your name in the hat, even because I think there's been a lot of things that as soon as it says, oh, well, they need natural gas, Like we don't have natural gas here. That there's a lot of industry that we do not and cannot be cited for because of it, right? It's a, it's, but, but then it's also just remembering that if commerce knows what our biggest and best assets are, it may not even end up having to do a formal RFP. Like they can, they can come to you directly because they actually know that you're a good fit. So there's that, there's a lot of wisdom in that. We don't approach it like that. It's mostly just because of kind of staffing and not having somebody that is dedicated to that role. Who does that for you guys? Is it you? Is it you, Bob?

It's the 5 board members.

You all kind of work on them together?

We split it off. You follow up with the railroad and the power company.

Okay.

You're gonna follow up with the city's engineer about water capacity and their current— and, um, you know, you're I'm going to maybe reach out and find some different financing programs that could be an incentive. And, you know, DeAnn's going to pull this all together into the formal submit part.

Yeah, she'll actually handle the putting it into the— Yeah.

Yeah. So it's a team effort.

Well, and that's so impressive because it needs to be stated, you don't have a paid developer. No. And that's— so again, when people say— and we talked about this before we hit record, but the idea of You were sharing with me that you've gone into other communities throughout your time, kind of in your role as the bank, right?

Right.

Is what would have taken you there. And something you've heard is, "Well, we're not Hankinson." Can you share a little bit about that? Like how that hit you, you know, and then in kind of thinking back on it? Well, because again, there's people listening to this, Bob, that don't have paid developers in their communities.

Sure.

For sure. I mean, I know that. And how do we help them think? Because you said that your CDC, you feel like it's a mindset. Your success is because of a mindset. So can you say a little bit more about that?

Yeah, well, about the mind— yeah, I don't know where the mindset comes from other than maybe historically, the original members of the CDC and the board, as they've as they're wanting to retire off of that board or not to be so engaged, is a thoughtful conversation about who in the community could we— could the rest of the board, those remaining, work well with? And what talents does that— would that person bring, or what contacts would they have or would complement our existing board? And you have to, you have to have a passion for economic development or don't come on the board. You know, we were invited over to Fairmount. Fairmount has actually had an organization called the CDC for longer than Hankinson, but they have not been active in recent years and they're trying to get things revitalized. And so the mayor had reached out to Nate Falk, who's the president of our CDC. And I'm the treasurer, asking us to come over to a meeting as they're trying to revitalize their group. And so Nate and I were a little bit surprised. So we were expecting to have, you know, like maybe a dozen people in the room at the most. And we get there and there's like 30, 35 people there.

Wow.

And so we're kind of squished in this little room and The mayor gets up and introduces us and then he sits down.

Oh, shoot. So you were like supposed to have a presentation for us.

And we're looking at each other like, well, I'm not quite sure where to start. And so I said, well, why don't you start and I'll just fill in the blanks as we go. But one of the questions that came out of that group was, well, what do you, how do you get people to show up? Meaning how do you get your board members to show up? I mean, and I think I probably said it quite bluntly. I said, if your board members don't show up, you've got the wrong board members.

Yeah.

You need to— only people that have a fire in their belly for economic development will do it because there are far more days that you feel discouraged or you wasted that time or that energy. Than there are the celebration days when Guardian Energy's press conference that they're citing in Hankinson or they're expanding. So I think it's whether it's coaching, mentoring, or just that you deliberately— this sounds mean, but just because someone says they want to be on the CDC, well, that's great. But we need to work together as a team. And when we need to work, we need you there to work. We need that commitment.

And it's not just a monthly meeting.

Right.

I mean, the way that you're speaking about this group, and it really truly is impressive, Bob. And I can't speak to tons of groups that I've seen, but I think a lot of times there's that mentality. Of, well, I'll, I'll join this board and I'll do my monthly meetings. And then there's very little input or proactivity maybe, you know, between meetings. And that is not what you were describing at all. But that's why, again, it's, it's special because that, that level of investment, it's showing up in how you're perceived as a community, how your group is perceived by other, you know, economic development groups that are trying to figure their stuff out. You know, Fairmont called you over there because you, you guys are doing good work. And so it is interesting. It's like you almost have to lead with who really wants to get actively involved in this. It isn't just like a thing to say, I'm a part of that. Because it doesn't matter if the group's not doing anything.

Right.

And I just— I think I just— it's going to be so interesting to me because I think there's going to be a big shift in the way economic development looks and how people think about it and even just who does the work. Because just like banking, right, if banking is losing decades of experience, the economic development industry certainly is as well because there's not veteran people that are going to be staying in it, you know, to pick up when, you know, the people that are retiring decide to leave and exit. So it's just really interesting. I think the other thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, are there any specific projects you can think of that the CDC has done that felt like a big risk and really panned out? Because one of— I'll, I'll tell you one of the things that I, you know, when I first came over and you guys kind of showed me around and showed me you own stuff like buildings and land, and that there was a level of, um, just again, kind of proactivity and investment in physically owning it and then doing the fit-ups or whatever needed to be done so that a business could take it. That's not typical, I don't think.

That's so— that was exactly in the back of my mind. Maybe not quite the question you asked, but well, so as we haven't focused on that big industry, you know, a second big industry, certainly if we get an RFP, we respond to it. But what we identified in our community is, you know, as soon as there's a vacant storefront, no matter how good that person is that owns that building, it's vacant. And there's just not the energy, the interest. Pretty soon, you know, one of my pet peeves is any Main Street, and I walk down and it happens in Ankenston. I usually stop and pull it out. Property owners that allow grass and weeds to grow in cracks of sidewalk, and in particularly where the sidewalk meets the front of their building on Main Street, and you've got weeds 24 inches tall, what is the message? You driving through Hankinson, what's that message? Nobody cares.

It looks like abandonment. Yeah.

Yep.

Not just vacant. Abandoned. Yeah.

So our CDC is— we've identified different properties. I could talk about a number of different properties, but probably the one that is maybe the most visible right now would be right across the street to the east of the bank. There was a 2-story building, historic building in town. Hardware store occupied the ground level and there were 8 apartments above. So there was a fire in one of the apartments, which ultimately ended up in the building being demolished. The store moved out. I mean, everything smelled like smoke even though their inventory wasn't damaged by the fire, so to speak. But you aren't going to buy buy whatever was in there because you're going to take it home and it smells like smoke. So it displaced the hardware store, plus it displaced— I think there were 6 or 7 of the 8 apartments were occupied. Everybody got out. No one got hurt. So that was good.

Mm-hmm.

So we were without a hardware store and worked with the store owners to build a new building. On the highway, on Highway 11, the corner of Highway 11 and Main Street. And so the result of the fire was we got a bigger, better hardware store with more visibility right on the highway.

It's a beautiful store.

But with that also comes the cost of demolishing a basically 2.5-story, because there was this huge facade out on the front of the building that actually made it look more like a 3-story building or nearly a 3-story building. And right on the corner. So a significant gap in downtown. This building's gone now. It's a bare lot. So the CDC participated. One of the things we did to assist the new store being built is we kind of helped that store owner. We bought that old lot. And helped with the demolition costs and kind of priced that lot where he needed to be to get that new hardware store built. Well, okay, so now what are we going to do with this lot? You know, it's a gaping hole on Main Street. And so we approached 3 different development companies in Fargo with that concept of, you know, retail on the bottom and housing above. Obviously none of them, you know, but we learned from them is kind of what is the commitment? What does the occupancy rate need to be above to make this work as an investor to get the project done and sold? And it, I mean, it just wasn't going to work. So again, Dave Paulson, who was on the CDC board before, but We had an old Sioux Line. Canadian Pacific bought the Sioux Line Railroad and they wanted all those old depots off of their property because they were liability issues. People, you know, living in them or going in and out. But so Dave and his wife Bev had moved the depot out to Lake Elsie next to the supper club and had an antique store in the depot.

Oh, that's cool.

Well, and they'd reached the age then where they were going to get out of the antique business and just totally retire. And so he offered to us at a meeting to the CDC and said, if you want to move the depot back into town, I'll give it to you. Of course, the moving costs and the foundation and so forth. But I think what struck a chord with us or maybe sparked an interest in doing that is it was going to be expensive, but it'd be less expensive than new construction.

And it has meaning and history.

Yeah, it historically sat across the street and about 3 blocks east of where it's sitting today. So it brings that historical perspective back, fills a gap. And so we left the interior literally untouched. So that's original other than paint, but put in new windows, a new roof, new siding, obviously the foundation, the HVAC system, electrical is all new. And so we have— the Depot agent used to live upstairs back in the day, so that's redone into a 2-bedroom apartment, 2 baths, 2-bedroom. And then on the ground floor, we do have retail. We have a— what's called the Energy Depot, which is a shake shop type thing, is renting the space, that space. And then we have a ladies boutique on the west side of the ground floor. So we've, you know, financially it's a strain for the CDC, but we felt the investment and to maintain the integrity of Main Street. It was an important investment that no one else was going to make.

Right.

Because it just wasn't going to be feasible. So again, using, identifying some programs with some low-interest money, we put some cash that we had into it, borrowed the rest, and we're trying to— so we make that cash flow. But we've done that with a number of other buildings in town. And our goal is not to be ever to be long-term landlords, right? But no one else is going to come in and rehab that vacant building on Main Street, but it needs to be rehabbed or no one's going to buy it. No one's going to move their business into it. And so we've done that a number of times and we try to build in an incentive. If we have a business that moves in, we'll start out with rent, but we create a structure whereby some of the rent helps reduce the purchase price. Right.

So they're building equity, almost a rent-to-own kind of thing.

Rent-to-own type thing. And some of them converted to contracts for deed. And so we'll carry that financing for them. But we always, we build in an incentive that if you refi traditionally and take us out, whatever that remaining balance you owe us on the contract, we're going to write that down. There's an incentive to get taken out.. And so we can turn around and use that cash to do another project. So we just did a couple of buildings where the thrift store was on Main Street. No purpose in mind. We knew they needed a new roof. They had an old wooden floor that got torn out, concrete. And before we got them put back together, we had someone approach us about 701 Boutique, which is—

It's an amazing store too.

Kind of like a vendor mall. Paul.

Yep. Um, yep.

But set up—

so that's such a great story.

She, uh, she did one building, so these are two, two buildings, but they have a connecting doorway. Yep. Um, and before we— so we got her into the, to the north side, and then she had enough vendor interest that before we could finish the south side, she approached us about renting the south side too. So we've got that, we've got, uh What was Rosie's Bakery is now the floral shop and a barber shop in the back. We've got— well, we helped to get a dentist back to town. We bought the building that originally was a medical clinic and then a dental clinic and then had been used for some other things, but rehabbed that, got a dentist back in town. Well, the Lollipop Factory, I mean, there's— There's a number of projects, but that's, that's what keeps us busy. And we do need to meet every month at a minimum.

Yeah, right. Well, I just— I, Bob, I can't— I love it too. We've been talking for almost an hour and a half. Can you believe that? Like, it just goes by so fast. But it's what I think is amazing is that you literally just said, you know, if, if a building needs to be rehabbed and, and nobody else is gonna— because I think, I think this idea that, um, you're gonna attract a business into a crappy old building. I mean, it's just not possible. It's not going to happen because people can't see beyond just the massive undertaking. Because it is, it, I know that personally. It takes a lot to fix up an old historic building. And yet, how is that not so important to the integrity of our main streets, right? So I just think there's so much we can all learn about the role that your group is choosing to play in these things. You're not just You're not just a conduit to other resources. You're not just providing some local backing. Oftentimes you are spearheading the work, the rehab, whatever needs to happen, especially structurally to a building to make it even possible for somebody to think about. And the fact that you were like, we didn't have anybody, but we knew the roof needed to be done. And so you did that. That's incredible. And I don't know any group that's doing that. And that's why, maybe that's why when people say, well, we're not Hankinson, maybe that's what they mean.

We're not crazy.

I know, I think it's wonderful. And I think the last thing I want to ask you about, just because I literally could talk to you forever, and I hope that our listeners to this episode appreciate the years of service that you've given to your community, and that you came over here to talk to us about it. I'm just— it's just been so great. I've loved it so much. I'm wondering how you personally, and maybe your group as you've evolved over the years, How do you handle naysayers and negative— negativity and misinformation, which seems to spread faster than the truth now? I think there's a lot of challenge. We have our little club with the Growing Small Towns, the GST Club, and we get together 2 times a month and we just have open conversation. Like, anybody can bring a problem or a challenge that they're having, and we'll all kind of problem Solve It Together. One of the things we've been talking about is the lack of interest in running for public office. And a couple of the communities in our group, I mean, there's like 5 big positions, you know, from the mayor to city council and maybe the park board positions. And I just think, you know, it seems like fewer people want to run for these things because they don't want to subject themselves to the scrutiny. And I can actually appreciate that, right? But you've been doing these things in this way, and obviously in a kind of bold and audacious way. I mean, the— what you're talking about doing, because the CDC is funded by partial tax dollars now, right?

The city of Hankinson allocates a percentage of city sales tax to the CDC to do economic development, right?

Okay. And that's typical. That's what it looks like here as well. So right away, as soon as you're starting to deal with what's considered taxpayer dollars. There's air quotes around that, right? It looks— means different things to different people, but in this case, it's sales tax. It's generated by the public, and you guys are fixing roofs on buildings that maybe don't have a tenant identified yet, right? Has there been pushback that you've had to deal with over the years, and how do you deal with that? And do you have any encouragement for younger people thinking about getting into these roles, whether it's you know, public officials or economic development groups?

It's an interesting question.

Teach us, wise one. We need, we need, we need your wisdom, Bob.

I would say that we have not received significant pushback.

That's fantastic.

Over the years. But the caveat with that being said, and this gets thrown at me in different situations a lot, others might be hearing it, but I don't necessarily hear it. Okay. Because of what my job is at the bank. It's, you know, they're not going to come and say that to me, although they might say it to someone else. But I think one of the probably a couple of things we probably haven't had significant pushback because we've been fairly successful in what people question when we start the project is like, well, what are they up to now? And they all think we're part of a secret society anyway. But what they see the end result is is I think we've— because we've had some successes, the CDC in general has built some credibility within the community. Not that we don't get pushback or some negativity, some comments here and there. I think the one that we hear now and again is that we already have that business or that type of business in town, and now we've got another one, and, and there's not enough, you know, it's going to be competition, and there's not enough business for both to survive. And I think that this— what we try to do is, I mean, we do not purposely go out and recruit another—

a business that we already have in town, right, that competes with somebody that's already there, right?

We're not gonna— we're not looking for a second hardware store.

That would be a silly activity. Yeah.

But in some of the smaller things, so we get criticized, for instance, that at 701 Boutique, which occupies those buildings down, while some of her vendors are offering products that are in competition to what Main Street businesses we already have offer. And I understand their concern and I appreciate that. But as a CDC, we did not recruit that, you know, directly. You know, we fixed up a building and before we got it done, somebody approached us about renting it.

Right.

You know, we had the Energy Depot come in and although they haven't historically done coffee, but we've got this coffee shop over here in the same block. Yep. You know, and we talked about it as a CDC board. It's like, I think they approached us about renting the space. We did not have a tenant in there. We need the rent.

Right.

We did not go out and recruit them, you know, so that's some of, you know, some pushback or negativity that we hear sometimes. So the other thing was There's this— it's gone away, but there used to be this thing about the wrong side of the tracks. If you've been in Hankinson, you know that the bank, the grocery store, the pharmacy, the post office, the school, hardware store is all south of the tracks. And so for years, we actually had— if people were going to build a new house, they wanted— or buy a house, they wanted to live on the south side of the tracks. Partly if it's a young family, it's closer to the school.

Right.

And kids could walk without having to worry about trains and all of that. But we've seen a huge, actually, building going on on the north side in the last 10, 12 years. We've had, you know, our new housing development, but individuals have purposely purchased a lot on the north side and built a new home. And some of it is, is lot availability on the south side. Right.

Yeah.

But I think some of that So that's gone away. But we did hear some comments. I think it was when maybe when the depot came in. Well, obviously we were trying to fill that hole specifically.

Right.

Yes, there would have been space on the north side, but it didn't— that really wasn't our goal or target. And since then, now, you know, the space— we have a brand new emergency services building housing the fire Fire District and Ambulance District.

Yeah, that's also a beautiful building.

That's occupied that space. And on the way to church yesterday, I see the fire trucks are actually parked in the new building. So they must have at least begun the move.

To move over.

Yeah, move over, so forth. And I think the other thing is some of it is just being a little— you have to have thick skin. And, you know, I heard this in one of the other communities I'm involved with. Work-wise is— tried to— there was a group in that community that built a spec home. And of course, timing was not great, and we get into COVID and all that. So it stayed on the market longer. But the group had decided to build a split-level to kind of to a less construction price and to kind of be of something for a younger family. They could finish the lower level off as they could afford to.

Yeah.

You know, or so forth. And, you know, naysayers, well, they've got that house and doesn't sell. You know, they should have known better than to build a split level. They should have bought it, built a rambler because, you know, older people want to move into that. It's like, there's all kinds of lots in town. Why don't you build a rambler?

You should build a rambler.

You know, what you've just described, it should sell probably before you get it done. Right? Crickets.

Crickets. Yeah, of course.

You know, it's so it's easy for the group that's active, whether it's individual investment or it's a CDC, is I think you're always going to, you're going to hear some of that. I think the other way, you know, through the years of my experiences, we, we're not always on the same page as the city council. You know, the council kind of doesn't like us showing up at meetings because they know we're going to ask them to do something. I mean, not that they're lazy. But we're going to ask for something from them. But to push along. And so, you know, we like to remind them of what the CDC has done historically, what's happened, things, projects that have gone on in the city that probably would not have happened without us doing them. And what that valuation as a result of what we've done, what that valuation has done. To grow the city's tax base.

Yeah, to grow your tax base, right. Well, I was going to ask if that's, you know, if part of the reason, you know, is there a place that you actually communicate the workings of the CDC? Like, do you have a Facebook page? Do you have some mechanism? Do you put stuff in the paper? How do you communicate what you're doing to the community?

That's probably an area we're not good at. We—

maybe you're all just good at kind of personally evangelizing.

There's no official way that we really communicate. You know, rarely does anyone ever attend our monthly meetings. Right.

Yeah. But I feel like that's common. Yeah, I feel like that's common.

We do have our annual meeting, which we typically get a fair turnout. And we try to— we invite groups like We ask the mayor to kind of give an update on what's going on in the city. We ask the Housing Authority to kind of report on what they're working on. St. Gerard's is a significant employer, the Community of Care nursing home, skilled nursing and independent living. Park Board is just the other groups in town to kind of, kind of report on what they're working on.

Almost like the state of the state, right? I mean—

And then also, you know, we report on obviously what projects we've been involved in. Our financial report is given. And so that's kind of just a once-a-year thing. But I think in a small town, you've got an overlap of members between different groups. And so there is that kind of that sense. Although when I go and get my haircut, sometimes I often get questioned about what's going on. I see activity in this building. What's what's going on there. So maybe it's kind of word of mouth, but right, um, you know, unfortunately, our— I don't think a lot of people read the newspaper anymore. Um, it doesn't matter if it's the local weekly or the Fargo Forum, um, doesn't seem to be the most effective way to reach the most people. Uh, plus people like to speculate and gossip and chat amongst themselves and create stories, but Right. We could do better at communicating, but finding that— what is the—

where and how?

How do we do that? We try— someone from the CDC, we don't make every council meeting, but we try to make an effort for one of us to, whether we're on the agenda or not, but it's just actually to be— so we have an understanding what the council is also talking about. And if they want to ask us about something, we're there.

Right. I think your comment about, and it's not that you actually don't get along with city council, I mean, but just the potential for, it's not even conflict, right? But it's just maybe what seems to be diverging priorities is really, you know what it is, where you need them to do something and they're like, oh, when you show up, they're like, oh, we're going to need to do something for them. But I think that that's a reality too, that again, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. But you do need to— the fact that you're showing up there, you're making sure that you guys are in the know of what the city's working on too, it's just really important. And that's a good practice, I think, for people to adopt.

Yeah, and I think one of our former mayors had said to me one time after a meeting, we had approached the city about something and And he just said, you know, you guys not only turn on a dime, you turn on a nickel. And government doesn't work that quickly. He was also previously on the council before he became mayor. But back in those days, the city retained a certain percentage of city sales tax that that they were going to use to kind of foster, to help with economic development or both projects. And they gave a percentage to us. And he was the council member that made the motion at a meeting. Let's just add what the city has been retaining for economic development to what do we give to the CDC because—

Amen. They're going to do something with it.

They know what to do with it far better than we do. And it does. We've got enough other issues to worry about. Let's let them worry about economic development.

I think that's so smart. That's so smart. And I think I also just— that's so important. You're— and I think it's a great spot to kind of wrap our beautiful conversation. But the fact that I have said this before, and I think you just kind of alluded to it, that a small locally operated and the visioning, everything in your CDC is done with local people. And the fact that your city council says that you turn on a nickel, it just means that you're allowing yourselves to stay reactive, not in a negative way, but you're actually responsive, not reactive, right? That you're flexible, you're adaptable, and you can make quick decisions, you know, where the city council can't do that, shouldn't do that. That's not the role of government.

Right.

And so I think it is— it— I think whether you, you all fully intended for this truly beautiful arrangement to, to come to play or not, if it was all thoughtful and intentional, or some of it is just you had really good people committed to what you were there to do. But that arrangement's really important. That separation to me is really important. And mutual respect for, you know, The government, they have to maintain all this stuff. So of course they don't want extra stuff to do. You know, the city's never going to want that. But the better the relationship you have between those two organizations and understanding that your role is to make great stuff happen and whatever they need to do to support that is part of what they can do. I just think it's really important. The government can't move fast. And so let's stop expecting them to somehow.

Yeah. And I think it's just building that credibility factor. So we develop a rapport where we'll trust you as the city that you're going to take care of what you need to take care of and ask us the questions you need to ask us. And we trust you're going to do the best that, that you know how or that you can or with the resources you have. And we ask that you have confidence in us that we're not going to put the city in jeopardy by something we do, or if we do, it's going to be totally unintentional. But I mean, right, you know, and that's the same thing as sometimes we need to get reined in too. You know, I've said I'd rather have a mayor going 100 miles an hour and a council that's reining him back to 65, right, than a mayor that's doing 40 and the council's not doing anything.

Exactly right. Well, Bob, thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing all of this with us. I think, again, I almost, as I was sitting here listening to you, I was thinking like, do we need to just do like a veteran series where people that have been at these things for a long time and you're going to be leaving it eventually. So, and again, I don't know if that means the CDC, if you'll just kind of continue with that. Obviously, you've said that you're retiring from the bank.

You're kind of partially transitioning out.

Yeah. Yep. Do you anticipate that happening on the CDC side?

Well, not immediately, but obviously at some point.

Yeah.

I think it's just recognizing maybe the time when others could bring more to the table than what I'm able to continue to give or to participate in. So we'll just see how that— when they— we have fourth white right people on our board. They'll just tell me when it's time or they found some younger blood that maybe has more energy.

It's time. Well, I doubt that's going to be anytime soon that you're going to get that from your other board members. But thank you. Thank you for always being so generous and gracious every time I've come. To see you, Hank, in Hankinson. It's always great. But your community is very reflective of this, of how you showed up in our chat today.

Well, thank you for the invite. And as I listened to you and Justin from a few months back or whatever, kind of intrigued me that you use the word you used to describe our CDC was scrappy. Yeah, I kind of like that.

You are.

You are.

You do things. You do like Common sense things, but they're not common sense for economic development groups for some reason. And I don't know why. It's literally like you say, well, okay, what's basically, okay, so I'm gonna, Matt Marshall, who was with, now is with Mankota Power, he once told me that he believes economic development is the removal of barriers to organic growth. So like, if there's something standing in the way, like if this thing would grow on its own, if it's a sector, if it's a business, like whatever it is that would grow on its own, if there's a barrier in their way, our job is to get rid of that. That's what I feel like you guys are doing. You know, you look at a, you look at a building and you say, what's keeping a business owner from wanting to inhabit that building? Oh, it's a roof, or, you know, a roof or a floor. Let's Well, we can do that. Let's do that. That is not how people approach this work. And so that's why I said scrappy, because it's just like you're just— you're doing the right thing that spurs the next thing, and you're doing it. And again, there's risk to it, but the other risk that never gets accounted for is what happens if you do absolutely nothing, right? The cost of doing nothing is exorbitant. And, and we, for whatever reason, we're so much more afraid of an investment not panning out, air quotes. And it's like, well, that's a, a much, that's a much, much more mitigated risk than knowing what's good. I mean, you know the future if you do nothing, just full decline. So I just think that's so fascinating. And you guys, you embody that as a, as a board, and that's why I think it's so fascinating.

Well, I think maybe one of the things that keeps our board, you know, our board is made up and has always been made up of either business owners or managers. I mean, I don't own the bank, but the bank's success is dependent on the success of the community. Is, you know, maybe why they're so dedicated and they do show up is because the stronger the community is, the more value in their business as a business owner in that community. And if they let, if things start going that way, the value of their business is going downhill too. So maybe that's the incentive that we've kind of been talking about but haven't identified.

Yeah, well, it's aligned priorities is what it is, right?

Right.

And that, but again, getting people to dedicate themselves the way that your group has. It is special, it is unique. And again, you're sharing it with everybody, so it can be emulated. People just have to decide to do it. So, thank you. It's been so great having you. We'll see if this ends up becoming your new thing, like in retirement, if you just go on the road and do podcast episodes everywhere.

Well, you never know what the next page is gonna hold. I have some conversations actually get this week about—

there you go—

ideas.

There you go. I don't anticipate a full-on retirement for you anytime soon, Bob. Thank you so much. We'll see you soon. Thanks. We hope you loved this episode of the Growing Small Towns show. We encourage you to leave us messages at 701- 203-3337. And be sure to subscribe to our newsletter at growingsmalltowns.org. In the meantime, keep doing what you can with what you have, right where you are. Your community needs you.

Because we are growing small Towns. We are growing small towns. We're right here living our best lives, as crazy as it sounds. But we are growing small towns, growing small Small towns, we are growing small towns. We are growing small towns.