Inside Scoop: How to Travel Productively

Hey there, welcome to Inside Scoop. I'm Paula Rizzo. Today we're talking all about one of my favorite topics, which is travel. I love to travel, and as a planner, if you know me, I plan for the travel. I love the spontaneousness every once in a while, but a good list, a good packing list does wonders. And also planning out, uh, you know, your travel in advance so that you know where you're going and you can take take advantage of, uh, the places that you're, that you're going to hit up. It's super important. And I know some of you are like, oh, that's not fun. Okay, we're gonna make it fun. All right, uh, to make sure that you get the most out of your travel as you're getting back out into the world. Having a plan will save you money, it will save you time, and it'll make sure you have a stress-free trip. I'm going to bring on an amazing expert in just a moment, but first I have a resource for you that I know will be very helpful for this conversation. It's my list-making starter kit. And you can grab it at paularizzo.com/list. And guess what is in that starter kit? A packing list, a template of how I do all of my packing lists, because yes, I have a new packing list for every single trip that I take. Uh, and that way I know exactly what, what I need to bring with me. And those lists have changed, right? Now we're in, in, you know, post-COVID world. Uh, there are things that you need that you never thought you needed before. And I wrote a whole blog post on this. So if you're on my, uh, email list, you will see all of that as well. And I'm also a LinkedIn Learning instructor, and I have a whole bunch of courses about productivity and the power of lists to be able to get more done. So you can check it out at linkedinlearning.com, or, you know, there's a QR code there as well that you can click on and just start watching away and learn some more about that. I do have 6 courses over there, and I want to hear from you if you're watching the replay with us. So please leave some questions below in the chat boxes and tag a friend if you have a friend who is maybe, you know, going on a trip is a little bit worried about how they're going to plan it out, tag them below. We would love to have them join the conversation. And without further ado, I'm going to bring on an old friend. We've known each other for many, many years. He's the founder and CEO of TripScout. Conrad, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Hello. Thank you for having me. Always, always a pleasure to chat with you.

Yeah. I mean, you've been doing this travel thing for a while and you have now, you know, it used to just be you. Then you got married. Now you have, you know, you and the wife went on a bunch of trips and now you have 3 boys, little boys that you go all over the world with.

Yeah, no, it's, we were very intentional about, uh, you know, travel is a big part of our life. It was one of the biggest influences on, you know, who we've become and our kids were entering our life. So we were really excited to share that with them rather than, you know, us entering into their life and then stopping everything we've known and loved and You know, it's, it's, I've looked at it also as, you know, I've looked at it for myself where travel, uh, wasn't just a hobby. It was kind of my version of an education, and I did not want to deprive my kids of that. So, um, and kids are surprisingly adaptable. I know it's overwhelming to, to take a kid around the world or 3 kids, but, um, when you start early, they just think it's normal.

So yeah, exactly. They go with the flow. I, I, you know, that is a very interesting, it's a mindset switch because not many people have that mindset of like, hey, you're going to join this family. This is what this family does. You know, we're not going to just do what you want to do, kid. Here's what we're doing, which I love. So that, I think that's very empowering.

You know, it's certainly the way you travel changes.

Yeah.

But, you know, and your expectations of a trip has to change. But, and also I think where people get it wrong is they, if they're, if they're bringing the kid, they either do want to do everything the kid wants to do or they do everything the parents want to do. And you would never treat another travel companion like that. You know, it's a balance, right? Where it's like, let's find this cool park and kid museum, but let's also find a really cool restaurant and neighborhood and walk around.

Yes, totally. And, you know, uh, social media is good and bad for many, many reasons. I mean, it's great for travel because you get to see people's pictures, see where they've been, see what, you know, uh, do a lot of planning and research and things just on social media. But how has it changed the travel world through the, through the years?

Yeah, travel or social media has definitely changed travel significantly. And I think there's a lot of obvious bad things that have happened that I think people like to focus on. Like, you know, it's turned a lot of to-do lists as like a checklist to run through and take a photo in front. It has created a desire to do something for external purposes as opposed to for personal reasons. And so there's a bit of like showmanship, I guess, and sometimes in people's travel. And, and it certainly has caused overtourism where everyone is wanting to flock to the same types of destinations or spots. Um, but if you take a step back from that, it has radically opened up a full option of destinations, shown things that you can do. Uh, it allows you to plug in and connect with people that you would have never otherwise— like, just I like to give the example of 10 or 20 years ago, if you went to New York City, everyone's trip looked exactly the same.

Yeah.

You would stay somewhere in like Midtown or Times Square. You'd go to the Statue of Liberty, you'd go to the Empire State Building. You'd, you know, ask your concierge where to get a slice of pizza. You'd get one. Like you literally had the top 10 Lonely Planet checklist and you did the, everyone did the exact same thing. Now, if you look at people's trips to New York City, They're checking out street art in Bushwick, Brooklyn. They're going on, you know, round-the-world food tours in Queens. They're doing hip-hop tours in the Bronx. They're eating and listening to great music in Harlem. Like, that would have never happened 20 years ago.

Right.

And so I just think it's radically opened up the beauty of what a destination actually is for the people that live there, not just kind of like your top 10 TripAdvisor list.

Sure.

And it also just has allowed you to know what's going on there. You can connect with the local artists, the creators, the bloggers, the foodies. Like, you can just follow them and see what they're doing. Like, you would have never had that access before social media.

Yeah, and it is nice to be able to say, oh, you know, so-and-so ate pizza at this place. Now I want to go to that place, you know. And so it does, it changes things for local businesses too, you know.

Totally. And it gives it— and so many of us are visual, like we want visual inspiration. So like a good way to see what you want your trip to look like is by looking at other people's trips and seeing if you want that. So, um, yeah, I think the, the positives far outweigh the negatives, and it's, uh, one of the most powerful tools. I always say that Instagram is probably the most important travel company that most people don't ever think of as a travel company.

Yeah, yeah. And what is your perspective on planning? Because, you know, especially now you're traveling with little kids, there's a lot of planning that has to happen. What's your take on it? How do you, uh, make sure that you get to do the things that you want to do when you're going to a new place?

Yeah, you— and you touched on it in the intro about making sure you plan. Like, I, I, I see so many people either way under-planning or way over-planning. So there's a nice art in the middle of planning the things that are important yet still leaving room for serendipity. Yeah. Um, so the first— I mean, like, I'll answer it sort of tactically and philosophically. I think philosophically the most important thing is to, you know, really set an intention. What do you want to do on this trip? What are you hoping to accomplish? And like, what is important to you? Uh, don't, don't just go out, see all the things that you think you're supposed to see. You know, if you're, if you're going to Paris and you don't like art and you don't like museums, you don't need to go to the Louvre. Now if you do like art and museums, Paris is one of the best cities in the world for that. So for someone else, you might want to go to art galleries. You might want to, you know, if you're really into fitness, like run through neighborhoods and go explore the city in a way that you really would like. Second thing, you know, philosophically I would say, you know, we touched on it, is like don't overplan. Like leave room for serendipity. I have seen expectations kill way more trips than like bad weather or anything else. So, you know, just go in with an open mind. Don't try to see the city as you've envisioned, or the country as you've envisioned it in your mind. Like, be open to experiencing it as it is. And, you know, I think all the best travel stories, like, I, when I build my itinerary, I look at these like, alright, I'm gonna go here, and I'm gonna go here, and I'm gonna check out this neighborhood, and as really like flagpoles to like go to, but knowing that the entire, like, the trip, the things I'm gonna go home and tell stories about is gonna be what happens in between those two things, you know? It's the neighborhood you've never heard of and you happen to walk through to get to that art gallery or that restaurant you're thinking of. That's like, that's where the magic happens, so make sure you're leaving room for that. The The next thing I would say is like, don't look at reviews that other travelers have left. Unless they're like a really good friend who you know, who you know just travels like you and thinks like you.

Sure, you're similar. That's, yes.

Yeah, like so many people go to TripAdvisor and they say, you know, what does Joe from Tampa think is an authentic restaurant in Rome? Like, go find local food bloggers, go ask locals while you're there. The amount of times that I'm sitting in some like, you know, European square in front of a bunch of restaurants, and you see every tourist looking at their phone on Yelp and TripAdvisor to see which one they should go to. Meanwhile, if you just looked up, you would see, huh, this is packed with locals, and this is empty, and this is packed with tourists. Like, it's probably not hard.

They're telling you, right?

Exactly, exactly. Um, and so with that, like, so then you go into like, how, how do you plan? So you don't want to over you know, you don't— we talked about who you don't want to talk to, we talked about, or who'd listen to, we talked about like what you, uh, how you want to plan but not over-plan. The next thing I would do is I would go to Instagram. This is how I plan. I go to Instagram and I find who, who are the top chefs, who are the coolest bartenders, who are the best artists, who are the local bloggers, and I just scroll through and stalk their feed. You know, like, I want to know Where is the chef after their shift going to get a late night snack? Where is the bartender going to get drinks with their friends? Like, what is the local food blogger or the local, like, barista blogger, like, where are their favorite coffee shops and restaurants?

Do some stalking. Do a little online stalking. I love it. You know, I actually did this, you know, I just returned from a trip to Paris and after a long time I had not been there. You know, I've been to Paris many, many times, but was not there. And unfortunately my husband and I got COVID and we got stuck there. So we did not get to go to all the places, but I do, uh, I, I had some new ones earmarked because I do follow some local chefs, and I was watching to see where they went with their friends, and I had them all bookmarked, and I was so excited for another time. I will get to them. But yes, it's really important too because, you know, you know, hey, these are people who— where would they go? They're around food all day, every day. Where are they gonna spend their shift? Their, you know, once the shift is over, uh, it's really important to see like where, where are these reviews views coming from? Who are the people who are, who are putting this out there? So it's, it's too bad.

Now you have a good excuse to go to Paris. So again, so there's no—

Totally.

It's all good.

Exactly, exactly. But yeah, I love, I love the idea of using Instagram for, you know, that, that sort of, uh, inspiration, but also to find, you know, some of those, those pieces. For me, you know, when I build out an itinerary and I start thinking about it, I do the same things where I'll just say like, hey, here are the like the things I want, definitely want to do, and then here's some stuff that maybe I want to do. Um, but if I'm doing a European trip or something that's like longer trip, what I've learned through the years is to not plan the first day and to not plan the last day, because I never really want to do this anything, you know. I, you know, you just kind of want to be spontaneous. You might not feel like doing something, you might be jet-lagged, you might, you know. So building in some of that space in the itinerary is really important. And not innate, I like to plan, so, you know, I've had to push myself to do that piece.

100%. And if you And I like how you said it. I, I— this is really important to know what are— what is really important to you and what are just other things that are there. So that way if you are bored and you're wandering around, you're like, oh, go check out that coffee shop. Like, I like to just pin all those things onto, uh, onto my map. But it's— yeah, and it's— and it's— what I've seen is that when people try to plan every second of their trip something happens, you know, crazy traffic they didn't expect, and now they're stressed out because it's going to derail their plan. Or they meet some really cool person in a bar, and rather than sit there and talk for 2 hours and really get an experience they'll remember forever, they're like, oh no, I gotta go see that other museum or tour or thing that was on my list, otherwise I won't feel accomplished. So, uh, building in that space is is critical.

Yeah, for sure. And I love that you mentioned the maps because I do the same thing. So I'm sort of planning trips always, even if I'm not planning on going to that destination anytime soon. But if I hear a review or somebody posts that they just went to this great restaurant in, you know, in Rome or something, I put it on my, you know, Google Maps on my phone and I put a little note about who said it so that if I happen to be there, I'm in that area walking by or something, it's on my map and I can say, "Oh, what was this? Oh, this is that thing Conrad said he did. This is cool. I should go to that." Totally.

Totally.

Yeah. So, um, what about packing lists? Because you know I love my lists. What are you— what's your take on the packing list? How do you do it? And are there any, uh, things that you found through the years that are, you know, must-have? I mean, besides from like diapers and stuff, because you got so many kids, but you know.

Yeah. So I'll answer before kids. Um, I'm probably, uh, I'm probably the opposite of you and with your list. The number one thing I would say is whatever you're packing, pack less. Yeah, you don't need it. You don't need to think of every scenario. The few things that come up, you can always figure out how to do it or buy it locally. I actually went before kids. I went on a like just this constant purging towards minimalism and I got to the point where I would go on a like a 3-week trip around Western Africa with a bag this big. And I would, and I, what I would do is, and like my key was, I, you know, I try to be like a minimalist with clothes. I had, you know, I have a pair of, like I have a pair of socks, one extra pair of socks, extra pair of boxers, an extra shirt. And I would just, as I got home, I would always bring like a little thing of detergent. And as I got home, I'd wash it in the sink, hang it up and wear the other pair.. And so I would just rotate. So I would, I would have a lot less clothes and I still, you know, usually bring a little thing of detergent or buy a little thing of detergent and, and just try to pack as minimal as possible. Now when I had kids, I then like exploded over. Yeah.

Yeah.

I went from, I went from, you know, carrying what probably people carry more on one day at work than, you know, on a big trip. And then I turned into like what you would expect, like, you know, Real Housewives of Dubai, like carrying suitcases and pack and plays and toys, but then we quickly realized, look, we don't need this, we don't need this, and we purge it. We purge it down. And so now, like, we bring like one little toy, one book, like, and we keep it pretty minimal. And what we've found, you know, with that is just if you forget something or if you end up needing that, you know, extra diapers or whatever, it becomes a cool experience traveling. Like, every— everyone talks about, like, travel like a local, and the thing that people miss is that doesn't— like, you're not actually traveling like a local. You know what a local does? A local goes to the grocery stores, goes to work, they do laundry, sit down with their family. So, like, if you're out of toothpaste and you have to go to some— and you're in a foreign country, it becomes an adventure. Like, you you find a local shop, you figure out how to communicate, it becomes a thing to do on its own. So I would say that don't plan for every occasion, pack less, and it's so much more easy when you can just— like, I never— I will refuse to check a bag ever unless it's like car seats, uh, yeah, or, or something that you have to. Um, but it's just so much easier to travel around, it's less stressful, you throw things on your back And you will find things though.

I mean, and again, this is a mindset that not everyone has, so I love that you're bringing it up, but it is very much like, how wonderful that this happened. So I have to go get deodorant in some strange store, you know, and figure out what I would like. Like, this is part of the experience too that most people don't think about. They think, oh, I want to see the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It's like, no, no, part of the experience is going and figuring out how you're going to ask for deodorant in the store, you know? Like, that is travel, right?

And, and it is, uh, you know, I was— I didn't start that way. Like, I remember when I, I was I did the digital nomad life before it was a term, and I like traveled with like a keyboard for my laptop, and I traveled with all these things, and I like just slowly whittled it down. And then I realized, like, I got to the point, I was like, how do I travel with no luggage, um, or no backpack even? And I— and eventually, you know, right when I got to the point where I was like really perfecting that, of course, you know, we added kids to the mix, right? Yes, that restarted. But, um, Yeah, I think like realize that that's often the most stressful part of like planning for a trip.

Yeah.

And I'm much rather, I mean, it takes any business trip or any actual trip, it takes me probably 5 minutes. Like I throw 2 black t-shirts and I'm good to go.

It's like less stress that way. Yeah. I mean, you just really—

I spend my time like, you know, getting ahead on work or like reading a bunch of blogs about the place I'm going or like just relaxing and getting into the pre-vacation mode. I think your trip actually starts before you take your first step out the door.

100%.

And so you might as well get in that mindset earlier and not stress yourself out by, by packing too much.

That is why I do like planning ahead though, because I do feel like I'm getting into like the travel spirit early, you know, and I'm starting to like put that together, and it kind of extends the travel for you, and it makes it, makes it more fun for me at least. I really enjoy that.

We've, uh You know, I think that like when you look at the average trip planner spends 30 hours planning each trip. And what I've realized from really getting deep into the, you know, the travel business and like talking to our customers, like that is an extension of the trip. You know, your trip is when you're researching, your trip is when you're doing your packing list, when you're packing, like that whole thing is your trip. So don't think of it as a 1 or 2 week trip, think of it as, you know, however many months it's on your, on your mind.

Yeah, I, I, I enjoy it that way. I think it's more fun, you know. And then afterwards, it's all your photos that you took and everything, you know, and all the recommendations that you have. I, every time I come back from a trip, I make a list of all my recommendations, all the places that I really loved, because you think you'll remember and you won't, and you never do. And then people ask you, oh, I saw your pictures and what did you like? And it's like, I don't know, what did I even do, you know? So I try, I try to tack that on to my, to my trip planning as well, uh, just for myself too. If I go back, at least I have the information. Totally. I want to ask you a little bit about Trip Scout and, uh, cause you and I have known each other since before Trip Scout was a thing. Uh, and now it has evolved. I mean, during the pandemic, unfortunately people were not traveling. And so you have built a whole community of people who love to travel, who did not go anywhere for quite a while. And now people are back out into the world. Uh, so give us a little detail about what, what's happening there. And I know there's a very exciting, uh, announcement that you have to be able to help people to travel more without breaking the bank?

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, we started as a trip planning app. So all the things that we had talked about where we're like, how do you discover local bloggers and local creators and local artists and who, well, who, who should you be reading? Cause you know, you don't want to, like I gave the example of just reading some review from some random person who went there once. So we built a trip planning app that allows, you know, we curate all the best content from around the world, put it in one place. It has, you know, we have social media posts and YouTube videos, the blogs, and we've tagged every point of interest they mentioned. So as what you mentioned, uh, about building your map, you can easily do that while reading content and tapping on a place and saving it to a map. Uh, and, uh, and that has gone really well. It's the number one trip planning app in the App Store. Um, as of right now, if you search travel in the App Store, it's actually the number one organically ranked travel app, just because, you know, we realize that travel travel a few times a year, was a daily activity.

Yeah.

People think about it every day. And, you know, we really wanted to be there for the, for the traveler. And in the process, you know, we realized that everyone was starting their trip planning search on Instagram and not Google. Interesting. And so we built a, a real community for almost every major travel destination and travel topic. And so, you know, you know, we built a network of social media brands. We have over 100, and we've grown to about 30 million followers across that account. And, you know, really was like, look, if people are planning, starting their planning, uh, from Instagram, we want to be there to help them. And, uh, you know, as, as the— as we really dove into, uh, our customers and we found that, you know, why why don't they travel more? And, you know, everyone says like they want to travel more. What's your biggest regret? I didn't travel more. Like, what would you want to do if you could do anything or won the lottery? I would travel more. Like, it was such a part of people's identity and such a meaningful part of their disposable time and income, but they, they were never doing as much as they wanted. And there really were two reasons. One was vacation time, and two was budget. And very excited because now post-pandemic, like, the vacation time is really starting to shift away for a lot of people because they can work remotely. So you don't have to take vacation, you could just go work from Portugal for a month and, uh, and just work full-time and, you know, live there for a little while. So like, we're really excited how that was shifting, but the cost thing was getting even worse. So post— there's a couple things like, you know, post-pandemic travel boom, rising inflation. There's a lot of reasons why the cost of travel right now, cost of flights and the cost of hotels, which are the two biggest expenses, has gone up and up and up. And so we built a hotel booking product, which is the first hotel booking product for Instagram, that is, that will save people 25 to 75% off almost like a lot of the best hotels in the world. And it's really interesting how, you know, we've been able to do it. And just like, to like unpack, like, you know, I think a lot of people see like, oh, great hotel deals, but everyone sells the same hotels at the same price.

Yes.

What, what we learned by getting really deep in the travel industry is all of the online travel agents that, you know, the booking sites and all the hotel websites They're all bound by these things called price parity agreements. So they have to sell the exact same room at the same minimum price. Even though sometimes there is like an 80% profit margin or 60% profit margin baked into that booking. And so what we realized is that the key part of that was you had to publicly advertise that rate. Privately, you could do whatever you wanted. So when we— if you were the merchant of record that handled the booking, and so when we, you know, we realized that we had a community of 30 million travelers on Instagram who we can have a private direct message conversation with. And especially since you're now allowed to do these things through chatbots and on Instagram. So we launched, we built, became an online travel agent, and we now, if you send a message to @hotel, so like @hotel on Instagram with the word hotel, We'll send you back a private link that's not shareable. It is not, you know, you can't search for it, you can't find it. It's private to you over an Instagram message that will show you, you know, thousands of hotels in any place you're going, and you will find deals up to 75% off. The other big thing about that is because we're doing this to our organic audience, you know, we're not baking in the same, like, you know, Priceline and Expedia, they combined spend $12 billion a year in advertising to just try to attract customers.

Sure.

Because we have our organic audience, we are able to just pass all— instead of spending money on marketing, we're passing all those savings to, uh, the customer and letting that, uh, you know, spread through just word of mouth and loyalty.

Yeah, well, I mean, it's great. So, you know, people go to Instagram and go to hotel, right? Go there and then private message that Instagram account the word hotel, right?

Yeah.

Uh, you will be sent a link, and then that link you can then look and see all of the different discounts for all the different places. And it's— these are places all over the world, right?

It's, it's everywhere in the world. It's exactly what you would expect with most of the booking sites you're familiar with. Yeah. Except you'll see that our prices are meaningfully lower.

Awesome. That is such like a great progression, you know, to be able— but you— and you still do have all of the information and articles and things that people can check out about the destinations, but And now they can also book, which is great.

Correct.

They get to the next, to the next part. Well, I'm really excited for you. You know, I've always been a fan and I've been traveling and following your recommendations and download the app. And I'm, you know, I've been a guinea pig for, you know, the testing sites. And so I'm happy to continue to do that and, you know, get the information out there, but to get people traveling too. You know, I think people are, you know, a little bit intimidated after, you know, the pandemic and being home for so long. And so it feels a little bit different. We're a little rusty. Rusty, but this is a good, this is a good way to kind of get back out there and, and, and start doing. Any last advice for people who are, who are maybe have not traveled in a really long time?

So you, you touched on something that I've been quite, quite passionate about where a lot of people were just locked up for 2 years and have not traveled and are now trying to get back out in the world. And it's a good time to do that. The countries need it, destinations need it. You need it. But realize that you might not be the same person and the same traveler and have the same comfort zone as you did going into the pandemic. And that's okay. Like, give yourself some grace. I'm a big believer you should always do things slightly outside of your comfort zone, but know that your comfort zone might shift. And so your first trip post-pandemic, if you haven't gone on one, like, It's okay if you want to avoid certain things or you feel awkward in certain situations. Like, know that that's normal. Know that everyone is doing that. And know that you'll, you'll quickly adapt back to how you were. But maybe it's on the second trip or third trip or fourth trip. So I think it's just really about get back out there, give yourself some grace if who you are has changed a little bit or your comfort levels have changed. And, uh, and know that, you know, know that it, it will come back quickly.

You might be surprised. You might be, you know, there might be something new that you didn't know that you love to do, and now you found it in a new destination or whatever it is. How will you know unless you try?

Totally. And, and, you know, right now travel is expensive. So I think, like, I gave you the solution for hotels— will reduce your budget significantly. And then when it comes to flights, the other big expense, like be open to new destinations. You know, like, don't— I think most people go into booking a trip where they say, where do I want to go? Bam, I picked a country. When do I want to go? Here's the vacation time. And they kind of back in, then what are the flight prices? But if you reverse that and you say, okay, where can I fly from my home, my home city, the cheapest, right? Where— what time of the month or day of the week is typically the best price, you know, because some places are busier on the week or the weekends depending on the type of place it is. And then, and then back in to where you're, where you're gonna go if, you know, if cost is a concern. And that way, uh, you're able to just be a little bit more strategic and pick, uh, pick places that are based on like the, the theme that you want and the cost budget that you want. Yeah, because at the end of the day, like most of us are like, cool, I want to go somewhere to, to go to the beach and to hike and to be in a jungle. And you think Costa Rica, but Panama would also give you the exact same experience, or Nicaragua. And so you don't really often, don't really care where exactly you're going. You care about what kind of trip you want to have.

Yeah, I love that. Another switch in mindset, you know, it's very much because that happens too. You plan it all out and then you're like, okay, well, let's look at the airfare. Last thing you do, and you're like, what? I don't think I can do this, you know, because then it's like insane. But we're reverse engineer it, do the airfare first and then go backwards. I love that. That's an awesome tip. Thank you so much for all of this. And I want everyone to check out the Instagram account, go to, obviously, to your website, and we'll just show that one last time so that people know that if you go to, uh, the hotel, uh, on Instagram and then message the word hotel, you will get a link, and then you'll be able to, you know, scan and see what it is that you might want to do, uh, you know, hotel-wise. We get some really great deep discounts. Conrad, thank you so much for being here. It was a blast keeping up with you and watching your journey. Thank you for all your tips.

Thank you so much. It's been a blast following you as well, and you have constantly pushed me to be more, more productive and more organized.

I love it.

I often need— so thank you so much.

Awesome. Of course. And I have a free gift for all of you watching, my list-making starter kit. You can grab it at paularizzo.com/list. Lots and lots of lists on there, as well as a packing list. There is a template there for a packing list so that you get your travels off right. Uh, and so thank you so much for watching, and we will see you next time.