Sarah Skelton, Director & Co-Founder @ Flourish

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Sarah. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

I think a good place to start is just for those that don't know, the new venture that you've, you've embarked on with Flourish. What is it and why have you started it?

Good question. So Flourish is all about looking for high potential early career candidates and matching them to organisations that want to attract, retain, and grow high performing sales teams, which is not an easy task, I might add.

Yes.

So that's what we're here to do.

And why is this like a space that you think really needs help? Why do you think your solution is necessary?

So I've spent 25 years in the early career specifically mainly graduate assessment, placement, and training space, and it's difficult. It's really hard to find good salespeople. Every organisation I meet struggles at some point. It's also difficult to find the calibre of candidate because when you're dealing in the early career space, you often— they don't know what they don't know, and a CV isn't very telling when you're looking at someone for sales. So I'm really passionate about trying to make the introductions of people that are starting out to find the opportunities that they may not know exist and solve the challenges of the business, which is, as I said, the fact that they struggle to attract and retain and develop those high-performing teams. And we've got a really good coaching solution, which I'll come on to, which is actually there to help support the candidates when they get into role.

I want to learn more about what makes a standout sales candidate, but I think actually using your own career journey, having been in this world for so long, where— how can you identify at a younger age, like, that you are someone that's built for this, built for sales? Like, what, what sort of, uh, characteristics in your teenage years, you know, coming into university, like, did you know you wanted to be in sales? And, and what were you thinking about your career more generally?

Yeah, no, absolutely not. So initially I thought I was going to be in the police. That was, that was what I wanted to do, job number one when I was at school. Then as I progressed through school, I was going to be a window dresser for Harrods, believe it or not. That was like career number two. Okay. My parents led quite ordinary lives in the nicest possible way. My dad worked in retail, so he actually worked for 52 years for Tesco. So retail was like a big part of what I knew. So then I thought I would apply for like a graduate scheme, like the M&S, the John Lewis grad scheme, back in my day were quite prestigious. And in the end, I went to university, I studied drama, and I think drama maybe lends itself a little bit to sales because typically you're not that shy, you're happy to put yourself out there. But it was through the work experience I had while I was studying that I think led me and gave me the sales bug. So, for example, I worked a lot in retail part-time and there'd be competitions like I don't know, who sells the most dresses of this design wins an extra 50 quid. And I couldn't fathom why the people that were there full-time weren't making the effort to do that. And I'd go in on a Saturday and everybody that went in that store, I would be adamant I would try and sell them that dress to win the money. So I've got an incredibly competitive spirit and I think that's what we're sort of looking for, is people that don't necessarily have any relevant experience as such. There's no degree in sales. Um, but it's people that show competitiveness, drive, like determination, a bit of grit, um, aren't scared of hard work, those types of traits.

It's interesting you say that there is no degree in sales, but I guess what you're, you're building right now and trying to find, um, people that are built for, for sales and help companies find them as well is the replicate— yeah, it's what a degree is meant to give you, right? It's making you employable. But if you haven't got that experience, what does that actually look like? What does making yourself employable in the world of sales look like?

I think it's the transferable skills. So businesses are happy to take a chance on somebody if they can demonstrate that through education, be that degree level or not, work experience, that they've been that individual that's put themselves forward, that they've been proactive that they're willing to graft, that they've shown competitive spirit. So quite often I have clients that love people that have played sport, because if you play sport to a reasonably high level, chances are you've shown that you can play within a team, that you've got a certain level of discipline, that you're probably quite competitive, and they're really transferable skills that you can put into sales. So there's some of the things that people sort of look for.

Looking at the job market more generally, yeah, I think it's, it's pretty obvious that there are less jobs available. Um, you know, graduates are finding it more and more difficult to stand out. Where do you think, like, this, you know, opening the conversation more generally to just like the world of careers and where it's going, where do you think that this sort of disconnect from what people are gaining through university and what employers are looking for, where do you think that that real disconnect is?

I think, well, I think the world has just shifted, especially, well, A, since I graduated, where I know it's hard to believe, but there was no social media, there was no LinkedIn, so you genuinely, it was hard to imagine the opportunities because you just didn't, you couldn't have access to them. Now, I think now employers are looking for different things, so yes, some like graduates, others apprenticeships are really big at the moment. I know you've had some guests on talking about that, And that's a really good route. I think the disconnect is just, it's finding the, the talent and connecting them to the businesses when a lot of businesses are not household names. So how on earth do you pull people in when they've maybe never heard of you, they've not thought that's an industry? And that's why with sales, I think the key is to just focus on the transferable skills and attitude because skill is trainable at the end of the day. And if you can be passionate about the business, it doesn't really matter what it is and what your background is, because you can be trained in the value proposition and the market and your competitors. You've got to have the want to be in sales. That's the thing.

I think it's interesting because a conversation I was having earlier, I think finding that passion for what you're selling is so important, and not just giving up when you first try sales and you're not doing it for like the products you want or the company you want to just completely say, like, you're never going to be in that, right? Like, I think some people completely close it off as an experience, and then they'll find themselves having to do it later on in life, and they'll love it because they're passionate. Maybe they even built the solution or product themselves, right? But I think I'd love to hear your advice and maybe how you actually sort of became comfortable and found your love for what you actually like to sell, and your style as well, right? Like, because not all styles of sales is the same, is it?

No, and I think it's changed a lot, thankfully, because when I started out, I applied to a company that were promoting graduates for sales roles, and I didn't really know what I wanted to sell, but I was a graduate, so I thought that was a great place to start. And I went off to London for an assessment day, which I'd never done anything like that before, and the founder of the company was there, and he said, 'You've done really well. Do you want to come and work for us?' And candidly, I just thought, maybe, all right. It sounded, it seemed like quite a fun company. The office at the time was about 20 minutes from where I lived, so that played a part. And the culture seemed good. And that's where it started. Now, the thing is, back then, there were very few women in sales. There's still probably only 25% of all sales roles globally are filled by women. And you go into industries like tech, that's even smaller. So when I started, it was very male-dominated. So you sort of felt like you had to put on a persona to almost be manly and aggressive to match the people that you were up against. And to be honest, I hated it. So I, for the first year, hated the meetings that I went on, felt really intimidated. I cried on a cold call once. It had been drilled into us like, never reveal price. You've got to build the value first, get the meeting. And this particular person just kept asking for price and I ran out of objections. I just burst into tears. So it was a really rocky start. But I think because I have that grit and I'm competitive, I didn't want to ever quit and I kept going. And then you find your style and then you learn as you get maybe a little bit older and confident in years. And I had some great mentors and leaders that you can embrace, you know, your way of doing things. And it's okay to be empathetic and emotional and you don't have to behave like a guy to get ahead. And that's how I sort of found my groove. And then the passion and the love came from the fact that the people I was getting roles for were people that were like me, and they were going on to do amazing things. And most of my network now is built up of individuals that 10, 15, 20 years ago, I helped them get the foot on the ladder for their first job, and half of them are doing better than me. They're leading teams, running global businesses, but they remember that early interaction, and it's, it's actually pretty rewarding.

I think a big mission of what I'm actually trying to do, and what I want the Graduate Guide to leave with people, is that recruitment on face value is helping someone, you know, find their career, their life, the thing that they're going to be spending all their time doing. Uh, and I think in theory that's like a really amazing life's cause to, you know, to be helping people without lens. But somewhere along the way, the whole industry's got a bad rep, and I think maybe it is that commission-driven nature, and it's, uh, you know, it only takes one bad experience of a recruiter for you to just like think, okay, this is what they do.

Yeah.

But what, what do you see the future of recruitment looking like? Because, and, and why, if you can actually try and pinpoint where this reputation came from and how we can change it, like, where did that, where did that come from?

Yeah, you're right. And, and again, for years, if people ever said to me, what do you do, I would say I'm in sales. And they say, what do you sell? And I'd say, oh, you know, people solutions. Like, I just couldn't bring myself to say I'm in recruitment because it was a bit like being an estate agent. It was about that level. I think it had a bad reputation and still does to an extent because there's a lot of recruitment businesses and they're trying to place people. They charge a percentage of basic. The higher the candidate's salary, the bigger the fee they get. And that's really the end of the transaction. So what I'm passionate about, and the reason we founded Flourish, is to firstly invest a lot more time in the candidates. So for me, this is now about a candidate mission-driven business. I want to educate graduates about the opportunities in sales because I just think the majority of time they simply don't know because it isn't promoted. So when we have candidates, graduates or otherwise, we bring them to our offices, we run discovery days, We take a lot of time to educate about the roles, the businesses, the types of activities they'd be doing. But then the crucial bit is once we place them, and what differentiates us perhaps from a normal, sorry, a normal recruiter, is that we provide ongoing coaching. So they get access to a platform, they get assigned a sales coach, they can literally use live chat, reach out at any point, they can have one-to-ones, but also they get assigned opportunity to go out to coaches in things like mental health, burnout, nutrition. So we're trying to support them in life as well in sales, which will obviously make them better at their job, which is a win for the client and a win for the candidate and a win for us.

I think it's, uh, it's interesting to me, the— this sounds, sounds almost like this is what should be happening, right? This is what should be done. But when I've tried to identify why, like, what we're doing and you're doing in sort actually trying to do more than just place people in jobs, but give people that awareness, upskill people, give them that community, all this kind of stuff that makes you more employable, right? I think when I— you know, granted, I wasn't in this world 10 years ago, but it seems like no institution on people's journey from school to graduation, no one's taking accountability for that. Like, feels like the schools It was kind of like, get into a good university, you'll be fine. At university it's like, get a good degree, you'll be fine. And then suddenly, you know, AI comes around, less jobs, economic downturn, and we're all having to actually look at ourselves and go like, okay, whose responsibility is this? And, you know, I'm— I suppose it is down to sort of disruptive startups like ourselves to do that. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, because I think Otherwise, you're reliant on your own network. So, if you're lucky enough, maybe your parents are in jobs and they know people and they know people, or you go to certain schools and you build a network. But you've got to remember, so many people, whether they go to uni or not, don't have that reach. And yes, you have platforms like LinkedIn, which are amazing, but I find that a lot of candidates don't go on LinkedIn until they've got their job, as opposed to using it almost before they've got the job to help with the research. And learn about information. So I think what you are trying to do is similar to us in that we're trying to capture the audience and say, hey, have you thought about this? Look at the different opportunities that there are. And the great thing about sales is it doesn't discriminate. So it genuinely doesn't matter whether you've been to the best university in the country, got a first class in the most difficult degree subject, or if you dropped out of school at 18 and you've been working, it does not matter because if you've got the attitude you've got the drive and you've got the competencies and the desire, the rest is trainable. It's just how do we capture those people to make them realize that, that, you know, because I think sales is an amazing profession, but similar to recruitment in the UK compared to the US, it's sort of underrated a little bit. It's not seen as a profession, it's more just something people fall into.

I mean, actually, the, um, the birth of this sort of startup ecosystem and, and more jobs becoming available in startups, I think it's quite a cool opportunity to, to re— to retell a lot of industries and professions, right? Because sales is ultimately what's going to make a startup happen or not, right? So, you know, obviously I'm— I know you worked for a big recruitment company called Pareto Law. You built your way up to, to become a director. What, you know, would you say to a student that's considering if they want to go down the corporate route or the startup route in sales? What are the difference for these people to consider?

And it's a good question. It's shifted again. When I first started out, everybody wanted the corporate, perhaps because the startups weren't seen, well, they weren't around like they are now. I think there's swings and roundabouts. I think the benefits sometimes of a corporate, it's probably the stuff that your parents care about. Get great benefits package, you're in a nice office. There's certainly a lot of people to lean upon and learn from and probably a very good training setup as well. The challenge is you can get lost. You know, you're a small fish in a very, very big pond. Whereas the beauty of a startup is you often have direct exposure to the founders. You know, you're learning as you go. You're seeing stuff that you would never see in a corporate, and you're getting exposure, which if, as many of the candidates I meet are entrepreneurial themselves, and you have aspirations to maybe set up a business or run a business one day, there's probably no place better. And I think the other thing is that, You know, if you go into a startup, let's be honest, it can be quite risky. You know, not all of them clearly are successful. And yet, when you're later down the path, maybe with a big mortgage around your neck and kids, it's a bigger leap to make. Whereas when you're first starting out, I'd argue there's no better time because what is the worst that can happen? You've learned some skills, you've given it a go, you can move on to something else.

How about with your own company, right? Because you're, you're, you're now a startup founder, I suppose. You're living that lifestyle. I mean, being in that corporate career and then doing this at your stage in life, what are sort of some of the, uh, the misconceptions about startup life, both good and bad, that you found out since going on this journey?

Yeah, um, so I think, I think I definitely thought it was going to be easier than it is, um, no doubt about it. I think when you've done— it's quite unusual, right? I worked for 23 years in the same business. I bet you do not have many guests that can say that.

Yeah.

Probably none, right?

Not anymore, yeah.

So I did 23 years, which meant by the end of that journey, in the nicest possible way, I was doing really well, but I was doing it with my eyes closed and working at half capacity because I could, 'cause I'd done it for so long. So this new venture is obviously quite similar to what I've done before. So naively I thought, well, this will be breezy. But of course there's so much to think about in a startup. You know, you're thinking about the marketing and the messaging and the value proposition. You're hiring a team, you're finding an office, then you're thinking about a P&L, and then you're panicking that you've overspent, then you think you haven't got enough people, and then you're planning an event, and who's done the order for the breakfast next week? And by the way, did anybody let the engineer in to sort out the Wi-Fi? And then you're trying to follow up on the sales. And yeah, I'm finding it's both brilliant, but definitely anybody that thinks startup life is easy is misguided. It's busy, and you've got to be willing to really throw everything into it. So, but you know, it's enjoyable and you get a lot from it. It's just, it's different but in a good way.

And I guess similarly, not to startups but just careers in general, I think it can be very daunting and it can be like, you can hit, you can really focus on the negative things around it. And you know, am I doing what I love and am I earning enough? And all these kind of worries that come with it, but But I think we have to try and, you know, if possible, promote careers as a really fun and great thing. And I think at the moment it probably doesn't really feel like that. But what would you say to some students and people who are about to start their career and why they should look forward to it? Like, what have you loved about your career journey so far?

I mean, really everything I've learned, you know, firstly, the In sales particularly, the people that you meet, like genuinely clients, customers, candidates, no two days are the same. I know it sounds cheesy, but you meet every person from every walk of life you can possibly imagine. I've sat in rooms with global CEOs and founders to real characters. I've had, I mean, the conversations and the stories probably aren't for now, but there's been many, many over the years. So the people you meet is brilliant. I think also, just as I say, the experience, the exposure. Sales is really lucrative. If you'd asked the girl from Lincoln as a kid if I would be living in London, you know, in a decent place, doing the sort of holidays and living the lifestyle I live without sounding like an idiot, I wouldn't have thought I would because, you know, I don't think I'm ever the smartest person in the room. I know I work really hard and I'm really competitive. But sales is that meritocratic environment where the more you put in, the more you get out. And so it's given me a lot of opportunities that I don't think I would have ever imagined I would have got if you'd asked me, my 18-year-old self. Um, yeah.

And then what about actually selling yourself to an employer, right? Yeah, like, uh, I guess it's all storytelling, but I think it's becoming more and more important as it's becoming hard— harder and harder to stand out. In that storytelling ability to actually land that job, right? So what have you experienced in your time? It's— there's been some, some really, um, yeah, so it's like, what does a good storyteller look like, especially when it comes to landing a job?

Yeah, um, so I think you need to have a certain level of emotional intelligence. Employers look for that. They're looking for people that are well-rounded. So back to the point around it's not so much linked to your academics What else have you done? You know, is it volunteering? Is it being in sports teams? Is it working different hours, being entrepreneurial? During COVID many candidates set up stuff for themselves, and that showed real entrepreneurial flair, and that's what people want to see. But I also think they're looking for you to be a bit different and proactive. Like, people talk about authenticity. Gone are the days where you just wanted someone to turn up to an interview in a suit and say, certain answers. Like, it's actually really refreshing to hear people talk about different things and experiences, and being authentic is key. But in, again, in sales, you want people that are going to be willing to be proactive. So some of the best candidates are the ones that reach out to me on LinkedIn, send me a video message. You know, if they're— if you want to interview with a certain employer, then message the people in the business, talk to the team, because not only do you get insight, but the time you turn up for that interview, I can tell you now, the hiring manager has already heard from the team that you've been in touch. And I could say that to every single candidate I meet, and only 1 in 100 will ever do that.

Yeah, I know. I think that is the tricky thing, is that I know this narrative, it almost sounds like— I don't know, I'm in this world, but as a student, it's like, okay, you just need to stand out, you just need to do volunteering, whatever. But I think it's, um I mean, like, it's more of a feeling that you, you know what you are and what you're not.

Yeah.

And I think, like, maybe because of the corporate nature of careers, uh, in years gone by, people haven't really been focusing on developing themselves but more ticking boxes, right? Like, do the spring week, do the summer internship, get the degree. And they've been losing sight of almost just living life, which is like a— it's kind of a backwards thing. It's like to become more employable, have more fun. Yeah, like, it isn't that simple, I know that, but that is, you know, generally what I'm hearing from employers.

Yeah, I think you just want to see people's character. One of the things— well, we look for a few things, obviously, when we're assessing, but character's talked about a lot. Like, it's that X factor. It's the thing that you can't tell somebody to have. You've either got it or you've not. But a lot of it is just about being yourself and having experiences and bringing them to life and Not being scared to also make mistakes, you know, being a bit vulnerable at times, asking for help. You know, a lot of, I feel like what I'm saying is sort of obvious, but just so many people don't do that. I think having people like you and others that you can see, you know, people need to see people like them to think it's achievable. So, obviously being female, I've always tried to push the female thing in terms of, you know, women in tech, a lot of my clients are in the technology space. Businesses are still trying to balance out the male-female diversity piece. You've got to see the females to feel like that it's achievable. Um, so yeah, there's just— it's getting people like you, it's asking questions, but it's being authentic and trusting that, you know, you can do it, putting yourself out there a little bit.

Yeah, I think there's so much power in like feeling heard, right?

Yeah.

Um, just being able to, uh to see someone that you've put on this pedestal and realize they're just a normal person who's been doing something. Yeah, I'm working harder for a bit longer than you. Um, and I, you know, I think our generation's done a bad job at like making things seem unattainable. Um, and that's social media, there's all these things. And, and yeah, I think the future has— it has to look like social media being used more authentically, right? Um, and And yeah, like almost like I guess what these podcasts are acting as, especially for the startup world, is micro-employee branding. Like, how can a company that doesn't invest loads of money into being everywhere on campus, whatever, how can they just show what it's like to work there? Like, what kind of vibe they are, what kind of person they are. Um, and yeah, I think we also touched on that, sort of the significance of having those mentors and those people you look up to. But again, it's like actually going on and getting that as a student, I think is a whole different thing. But what would you say your best mentor relationships look like, and how did they come about in your career?

Yeah, I think sometimes it's just— it is just asking people. And, um, somebody once said it to me, you don't necessarily go and ask someone, will you be my mentor? Because a lot of the people that you want to have as mentors are really busy individuals, and that suddenly feels like that's a lot of pressure and a lot of time. It's more just going to people and saying, oh, could you give me 10 minutes 'Can we have a chat? I'd love to pick your brains on that.' And if anybody ever asks me, I will make time. Um, I was literally the other week on a call with a candidate who is the son of a lady that I've only met once. She's not a client, but she'd put on LinkedIn something about her son had this important interview, and I just said, 'Oh, I'll spend 20 minutes, I'll help.' So people, I think, are willing to help, but you've just got to ask. But don't, don't make it too much of a bigger thing. Most of my mentors have been leaders within my last business who I just got really lucky. I had some great people. And actually, like, you know, to an extent, my mum. My mum has been an amazing role model all of my life. She's worked relentlessly, 42 years. I love to tell people, without a day off sick. Like, work ethic like you've never seen. So for me, it was leaning on those people in my family and in my business. But definitely reach out and ask people.

And Sarah, my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests.

Yes, go on.

When you first started off on your career journey, you might have had a certain idea of what success would go on to look like, but fast forward with everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

God, it's a big question, isn't it? It's changed. So to begin with, it was all about, for me, recognition. I just wanted to win everything and be known as the best person. Then it's sort of, you get a taste for the money and the financial side, and it became a bit probably linked into that, if I'm really honest. But for me now, success is doing something I enjoy that also pays well, because I always think in life there are lots of people that have passions and they do jobs that unfortunately don't pay great money. You know, you just have to look at our educators, our NHS, amazing people. And then there's other people that do really high-paid jobs that probably they will say they don't love doing. So, I think if you're lucky enough to get a job that pays well and you enjoy doing it, That for me is success.

Love it. Thanks so much for coming on, Sarah.

Thank you for having me.