Simon Tracey, Group CEO @ Broadwick

Welcome back to another episode of The Graduate Guide. Today we're joined by Simon. Simon, welcome to the podcast.

Welcome.

Uh, so I think a good place to start is just by, for those who don't know, what does Broadwick do and what's your role as CEO within it?

Okay, yeah, so Baldric, I mean, many people know Baldric for the festivals that we used to run and obviously the music events. I think that's what makes Baldric famous, if that's the right word to use. But it's a much bigger company than that. At the heart of Baldric, we're a property development company. So we have a portfolio of lots of properties that we lease from various different developers. But what we do is, as opposed to just leasing it and sort of commercializing it through hiring it out to people, we put our own content into it. So we have our own entertainment company that curates programs, sells tickets, and delivers large-scale music events. And the beauty of that is because we own the venue, we're working really collaboratively together. It means that you can really plan week to week what you're putting in the venues. And it also allows us to activate spaces quicker. We're not sitting waiting for the phone to ring to hire the space. Of putting our own content in and really building the brands that those venues are.

And as CEO, what does that actually look like then for you?

Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think CEO is a job title that I ever thought I would have, and I think in many ways there was a time where I was the maybe the most CEO person in the room. So I don't think it was something that I developed into, um, and I definitely didn't go the traditional route of being in finance and becoming a CEO, or, or being a lawyer and becoming a CEO. I mean, I really did work from the ground upwards, so there's nothing that Broadwick does that I haven't sort of done myself at some point, and I think that, that really helps. And I'm definitely probably more commercial than anything else, but obviously in, in any business, if, if you're not able to drive a business forward commercially, it's not going to be around for very long. But my role is really all-encompassing. There's obviously the technical bits of the business that report into me, so like finance and legal and people, etc. But then I'm also heavily involved in the day-to-day running of our businesses, like especially the venue businesses. So I get really involved in how we talk to people about these businesses, how we partner with various different clients coming in, and then obviously overlap with our entertainment business and start getting really involved in who we're booking, who we're programming, what acts are selling, what the experience is like for people on the day. So there is definitely no two days that are the same, I can tell you that. And Broadwick, um, post-pandemic has grown at a rapid pace. So, um, it is definitely a full-on role, um, but one that I thoroughly enjoy. And I think it sort of suits my personality that I'm able to sort of jump from project to project as opposed to focusing on just one task at a time.

And we go back to the beginning of your career journey. So you're studying at University of Exeter doing leisure management?

Yeah, I mean, I was always really, really interested in sport. So unusual that I now run a music business. But yeah, I love playing sport, played rugby from the age of 7 and wanted to go and really just mix my passion for sport with my degree. And so the course I did was a business course, but it definitely had a lot of sport elements to it. So strange things like I learned how to rig a yacht while I was there and passed all my yachting exams and did orienteering and all of these sorts of things, which made it good for me. The actual campus, so it was an ex uni degree, but it was a college called St Mark and St John, which is down in Plymouth, which is an interesting city because you've got Plymouth Uni and St Mark and St John. So you've got probably 20,000+ students in Plymouth. So it's pretty lively at times. But what What was interesting about that was my— it predominantly did B.Ed., so people training to be PE teachers. So my BA course was quite unusual, but what it did mean is you had some brilliant athletes there. So when I was playing rugby at college, I was playing with like, basically most of the team went on to become internationals post uni. And it was a great city. I mean, it was 250 miles from home, so I didn't have to go back much. Really enjoyed university life. Cost of living down in Plymouth is probably probably not too bad, so we're able to get nice places to live. Um, and yeah, as I say, on a, on a, on a sort of midweek Tuesday, Thursday night, I think the students sort of overtook the city. So, um, so really good. The only downside of it was that when I chose it as a place to study, I went there, it was a really sunny day, we got picked up from the train station. It's a campus university, people sort of playing tennis as you drove in. So I thought, this is amazing, this is where I want to spend 3 years, not realizing that all turn times at university are basically the winter months. It's a grey brick, uh, construction on the side of Dartmoor, and it basically rained from day one to the day we left every summer. So, um, on my— like, last year we actually stayed down for the summer to actually take advantage of being so close to places like Newquay and stuff. Um, but really enjoyed it.

Um, what did you think your career might pan out to be back then? What were you thinking?

Yeah, I mean, I've got 3 children and I talk to them a lot about this because I think there's a real danger in trying to decide what you want to be too young. I mean, when at the time I was going to university, I really was just thinking I enjoy playing sport and I enjoy the concept of business and the degree sort of offered that and it was very modular. So I got a taste of economics or psychology or finance. So it wasn't like I was really, really focused on one thing. Actually, it is really important at university to start thinking about what you're going to do next, because as a, as a recruiter now, any experience is good experience. It doesn't need to be necessarily relevant, but the worst thing you can do is just work really, really hard on your degree and expect an employer to go, oh, that's an amazing degree, yeah, yeah, we definitely want to hire you, because you're just hiring a student at that point. What you need is someone who has sort of got more rounded experience, a combination of, um, the academic side and the theory. But some ability or some evidence that they've put that into practice. And that could be just like working behind a bar or just being a casual on events or anything. But for me, when I was at university, I did start doing summer jobs. So I worked in the summer play centres in the area that I worked with, which I really enjoyed doing sort of activity with the kids in their holidays. I worked behind the bar a bit, which I thought really helped. Back in the day when the tills weren't computerized in any way. So you actually add up all of the prices of the bar. So working in a, in an Irish bar trying to add up the prices of Guinness very quickly is, um, definitely keeps you on your feet. Um, but, but, but, and, and I worked in, in health clubs. I was a lifeguard. I mean, I had a com— I mean, I, I started work when I was 12 years old doing a, a paper round for like a penny a paper, delivered 1,000 papers on a Friday night and got £10. Um, so So yeah, so I was really, um, I was really always interested in making money, um, but also what I didn't realize at the time that all these things really helped. So, um, I think you should— you shouldn't be like, this is what I want to do in 20 years' time, but you should always have like one foot in the future and just get loads of experience. Um, and I think that really helps, but I definitely wasn't setting out to become a CEO.

So, so when you have all these sort of, uh, experiences that don't, you know, in theory fit together to be like, okay, this is the next job you go on to, what is it that then actually makes it like you more employable because of it? Is it the storytelling? Is it the way you can contextualize it and how it's made you the person you are? I mean, we use the case study of Sophie actually that we both know. What was it about her do you think that stood out so much and made her just slot in so seamlessly to Broadfoot?

It's a combination of two things. I mean, we obviously in our business do a lot of selling, and the theory of selling is people buy in two ways, logical and emotional. And as you need to think of yourself as a person, so if you're selling yourself as a person, your degree and your qualifications tick all the logical boxes, but what is, when you're meeting someone, going to make them emotionally think about you? And that is really aid down to personality, but working outside of your degree is gonna help build those skills and develop your personality. And just some practical experience because there's, it's really difficult in an interview if someone's only done the degree because you're only gonna be able to ask them, what school did you go to? Why did you choose that degree? What did you do for your degree? It's gonna be a 10-minute interview. Whereas if you've got some experience, you'll find that the questions about your academics that's a tick box. And it's really important. I'm not suggesting people don't study. I think it really helps, and especially university. I mean, it's called university because it gives you universal education. I think it really helps that tradition, that transition from being a school kid to an adult and living and being responsible, etc., and having some fun. Um, but you really need to, um, have something to talk about. Um, and, and as I say, it doesn't have to be like, if you want to be work in finance, you don't have to have worked in a finance role. Everything is relatable and you just need to get any experience, um, whatever that be. And I think that really helps. And, and I think someone like Sophie, it's that passion. I mean, her, hers is way more focused than me. She sort of has always known what she wanted to do and she's sort of really gone after it and she sort of curated her experiences around that end goal. Um, so that's, that's sort of slightly different to me, but, um, I don't think you should get too hung up on that. I think the most important thing is, is, is living your life, getting your education, but also getting that experience.

And then for you, you sort of mentioned that you didn't see yourself becoming the CEO type of person, but then when it came to being offered the role of CEO at Broadwick, you just were the person in the room that exuded those qualities the most, right? What happened in that in-between stage that, that, that started developing those skills that, you know, of leadership and, and being in the role that you are now?

Yeah, I mean, I think playing sports all my life has definitely helped with the leadership. I like being part of a team, I like developing a team, and I like driving a team. So that's really transferable. I think the fact that I had done lots of different roles in the company and had really sort of learned from the ground up is important. I mean, I first, as my career developed, I really enjoyed running events and, and that one of them, I mean, Broadway's guiding principle is the power of live. We really believe in the importance of that emotional connection that you get in the live experience, whether that be a corporate conference, a music event, whatever. But the, the fact that you're in person sharing it with other people and enjoying it is important. And I think that sort of underpinned my career, even, even back when I was doing my degree. I loved it when we had like modules where we had to organize events or, or do that. And I just sort of thoroughly enjoyed that element. In terms of what made me a good CEO, I sort of started bolting on the skill sets needed. So when I was working back in recruitment, I was always more interested in the way the company worked than my job role within the company. So I was really, really interested in that. I started sort of upskilling myself on finance and understanding the difference between a P&L, a balance sheet, and cash flow analysis, how those three things really are very important and how they link with each other. The difference between EBITDA, EBIT, EBT. All of these things are buzzwords to many, but you start realising how important they are to really looking at it. And then once you understand the sort of the theory and the basic levels, you can then go deeper and deeper and deeper. But I remember when I I was launching Festival Place in Basingstoke, so this was some time ago now, and I was talking to the CEO of Laing O'Rourke, the big construction company, and also the CEO of Grosvenor, the big property development company, Grosvenor Estates, who at the time were the developer of Festival Place. And I actually asked them the same question you've just asked me, what makes you a good CEO? And both of them answered in the same way. Not— they said, I'm not really good at any one thing. I have an understanding of everything and what it takes to drive and develop a team, but ultimately it's about recruiting good people. And they said, my biggest skill is being able to interview someone and being able to filter the good from the bad and choose the right people. And when I think back on that, I went into recruitment because I wanted to make some money when I was younger, and I was really interested in the commission element. But Actually, the sort of 3 to 4 years that I spent in recruitment, what I didn't realise I was gaining was that experience of interviewing person after person after person. And by the time I finished recruitment, I was way more interested in the person and how I could develop their career than the money I was making. The money always came because they come hand in hand. But actually, the skill of being able to recruit and recruit well is invaluable because you can be as good as you can be as one person. But if you're actually going to grow as a business, at some stage you're going to need to start taking people on. And if you're not good at identifying who's going to add value to your business, and it's not always about adding value from day one, quite often it's about recognising the potential in people as well and knowing that with the right sort of mentoring or pushing in the right direction, you can develop some really, really valuable assets. So yeah.

Yeah, I think a big takeaway for me there is just the power in just doing and doing and doing, and like what can come out of things are so unexpected, but just from actually going ahead and not stagnating. And just, you know, if something's not going right and just throwing yourself into the next thing. But I think especially even in running your business and keeping it moving forwards, is there something that you've done or learned throughout your career of how to sort of recalibrate and just like get going again?

Yeah, I mean, that doing and doing is really important, and no one would— I'm sure no one who runs their own business would ever say it was easy. And it really is down to hard work. Um, I was watching an interview that Elon Musk did recently where he was saying that, um, the secret to his success— or I mean, whether it's successful, but the secret to his success about how big he's become is just that he was prepared If someone was good doing 50 hours a week, he was prepared to do 100 hours a week in the early days. And there's a lot to be said about that. I mean, it's not for everyone and obviously work-life balance and all of that, but you sort of need a relentless energy. I was really lucky that in 2004 I met one of my business partners who, Simeon Aldred, who is our sort of director of strategy now, and he has a relentless energy. So since since 2004, I think he phones me probably 4 to 5 times a day, quite often literally to ask the question, what you up to? And, and, and obviously, like, I don't report into him, but it's just that constant drive. Um, and I don't know whether that's come from a position of just wanting to better himself or just grow, but unless you, unless you want to do that, you will end up running a lifestyle business. And what I mean by that is you'll get to a point where you might earn enough money to be relatively comfortable, but you, you're never going to be able to grow it past a certain point because if you haven't got that energy and drive, you're going to make mistakes. Definitely there's going to be plenty of low days, weeks, months, but there's also going to be some massive highs. Um, and I think with Simeon, it's his energy that, that really keeps him going. For me, I think I'm— I find it quite easy to compartmentalize stuff. To me, if something if it's not going well, I quite quickly realize that there's a process we're going to follow. There's some stuff that I can control, some stuff I can't, but it's a, it's a process. Um, so I, I don't get stressed very easily. Um, I stay pretty calm under pressure, um, and I can slowly think a problem through, um, and, and get to the end result. Um, when I was very young at primary school, I played a lot of chess, and I, I, and all these things, as I say, in your life, they sort of all come together, but I mean, to become a good chess player, you need to be thinking more than just your next move. You need to be thinking 20, 50, 100 moves ahead, the really good players. And I think that really helps you in business as well. If when you are confronted with a challenge or an issue or a decision you need to make, if you can sort of internalise it in your head and think about all the possible variations of what it might go and sort of play that game in your head, it really helps you. So I think, um, that, that's probably— that allows me to pick myself up from a bad day because more often than not I've already in my head known that that was a bad day, but in 2 weeks' time it's going to be a good day. And so I, I sort of live my life way more advanced than the actual day that I'm living, if that makes sense.

I want to pick up on something you were talking about earlier, which was your conversation you had with the 2 CEOs and just sort of asking the questions that you wanted to know the answers to. I feel like our generation, we've done a pretty bad job of putting people like yourself on a pedestal that you've never really been asked to, that of like, oh, they'll never relate to what I'm going through, or they'll never, you know, have time for me or answer my question. But really what I found from doing this podcast more than anything is that they're all just very normal people that have just, you know, worked hard and, you know, a few steps ahead. So I, I wanted to know, sort of from that conversation you were having with those two CEOs CEOs, how you think approaching sort of people further on your career and how you can actually make the most of having these conversations and to, to start, yeah, learning and moving forward in your career.

Yeah, I mean, I've, I've never, I've never met a single CEO that isn't actually a very normal person, and they have the same challenges and stresses and balancing between life and work as, as everybody else. And ultimately everyone sort of starts off in the same place. Everyone goes on slightly different journeys, but it's still a journey, all the same. And I agree with you, you quite often find that CEOs in businesses are more approachable than many other levels of the business because you get to a point where you want to sort of develop people or chat to people and you take real enjoyment in seeing people develop. I was lucky because from quite a young age I got exposed to quite senior people, so I was able to sort of meet them face to face. Um, but I think if you, if you're really interested in engaging with someone, there's loads of ways of getting hold of people. Um, I mean, my, my son is at university, is astonished at how many people he can link in with, um, just by literally asking them. Um, I mean, I, I imagine some CEOs are probably slightly more, um, careful about who they, who they link into than others. Um, but there's loads of, um, there's loads of industry events where you see people talking. Um, I, I spoke at a conference recently and 2 or 3 people took the opportunity just to hang around by the stage. So as I came off the stage, sort of just dived on me. Um, maybe some people wouldn't like that, but I was more than happy to spend 10-15 minutes chatting to them about, about what, what they wanted to ask me. So, um, and, and it's the way you learn. Um, if you don't, if you don't speak to people about how they've got to where they've got to or what they're thinking, you're just going to be be, as you said earlier, stagnating at a certain level. If, if your ambition is to just keep growing in life, um, you, you should learn from all of those people around you. Um, and whether, like, people's parents quite often are probably working with senior or no senior level friends, so that's a good way of starting to speak to people. Um, LinkedIn I've mentioned, industry conferences, um, and, and podcasts are great because you do get the chance to listen to people speaking very openly, very honestly, very naturally about their lives and, and sort of what makes them tick. Um, so I think that's a really valuable, um, resource to dip into as well.

And then in terms of the actual brand of Brawlbook and how students and talent generally perceive you, I know you do some really creative events that, you know, other companies don't, and, and actually how you can find and source and cultivate talent um, you know, you've been in recruitment yourself. What do you think makes a really great employer brand? And specifically for Broadwick, like, what is it about, you know, the way you're doing things that's attracting such great talent?

Um, I mean, I think— I mean, I would love to say that I created the brand Broadwick. I, I did not. I, I joined the business after it had been operating for probably about, about 10 years. Um, but, uh, Bradley Thompson, my my business partner, founder of the business, along with Gareth Cooper, set up Broadwick. But a lot of what I've said about that sort of work effort and hard work has really helped them craft what Broadwick is. That belief in creating something really special, magical moments for people, has helped. But I think as Broadwick is growing, it, it's about the culture. And it's really, really important. We take a lot of time taking people for a recruitment process, not because we want just someone to come to 2, 3, 4 interviews for the sake of coming, but it's as important to us that the people— that people want to join us as we want to find the right people, because if you don't employ like-minded individuals in a company— and I'm not talking about carbon copy templated people, not everyone at Broadwick is exactly the same, same, but I think there's a sort of shared vision drive, um, in, in everybody that we employ, um, and that really helps. Like, so when we have our big summer party, I see people and, and people chat to various different groups of the business they might not work with on the day-to-day basis, but people just generally enjoy hanging out with each other. And, and I've seen— I've been to lots— I've worked in other companies and I've been to those sorts of events before, but like, it's almost like forced fun. People go because they have to go, um, whereas at Broadwick, I think people enjoy seeing each other as much socially as they do, um, at work, which is important because a lot of what we do, we work unsociable hours, we work at weekends, um, if you don't enjoy being with the people that you're working with, that's all going to become really difficult. But I think, um, Baldwick, I think externally is, yeah, as you say, because of the events that we do, people perceive it to be really cool and really engaging and that. But internally it's exactly the same. And I would like to think that if you sat down here with people who'd been at Baldwick for 1 year, 2 years, 3 years, they would be saying the same sorts of things that I'm saying. So it's really authentic. And I think that because we're independent, we still, I mean, we do have a sort of equity mix and there's some bigger shareholders in the mix, but it's still owner-operated run. And that independence gives you a freedom that other companies don't enjoy. We're inherently, a lot of us are risk takers. We enjoy taking risks. So there's lots of projects we do at Baldric that nobody would ever do. I mean, we, we do a quarterly, um, uh, new starters brunch. Um, Brad and I present it, and one of the stories we tell at that brunch is, um, an event we did for, um, Bacardi. So Bacardi wanted to, um, do something really exciting, something that made a bit of a splash. So they put out the brief to like literally hundreds and hundreds of agencies. Um, I can't remember what the budget was, but it's probably like $5-10 million. It was, it was a good budget and it was like, we just want to make impact. And Baldric won it against all the odds, like pitched it and won it. And we came up with this concept of because it was Bacardi and I forget what the strapline was, but we basically booked an island in the Bermuda Triangle and ran a music festival and we flew Ellie Goulding in, Kendrick Lamar, And all these artists flew in on private jets from different parts of the world onto this island with invited guests, streamed to thousands, thousands of people. I mean, it's quite often described as the Fyre Festival that actually happened.

I was gonna say.

But there's very few, I think there's very few companies with all the sort of corporate restraints and risk registers and all of those sorts of things that would go, do you know what, let's go for this. And I think with risk comes reward. And we still do that now. I mean, there's not many companies that would go, let's try and convert an old IKEA store into a massive like venue that with the ability to host music events of up to 15,000 people. And actually while we're at it, let's do it all in 6 weeks. And it's that sort of ability to make a quick decision, back yourself, do it and deliver it, that really is in the sort of DNA of Broadwick. And I'm pleased to say that the building was founded on, sorry, The company was founded on that belief and it still exists today. And we encourage that in anyone joining the business. We encourage people to come up with new ideas all the time. I mean, you were telling me before the interview about the intern at Spotify coming up with that rap concept that is just a massive marketing global success. So I think that it's really important for Broadwick that it's the new people that join the business that could come up with the best ideas. Ideas. Um, I mean, I'm definitely in the top 5 to 10 oldest people in the company, but our average age is somewhere between 25 and 35. And we've got all of these great people that are living culture. They're going out day in, day out. They're experiencing life, and it's about harnessing all of that to, to just create an amazing, amazing business.

I can't help but sit here I think, like, think back to a time where I thought, like, careers just had to be really boring and you couldn't really do anything of impact, and it's just one of those things you kind of did to make money and live. But, you know, hearing you talk about, you know, what you do at Broadwick and how big you think and the ideas you bring to life, like, it makes you think, oh, it is actually a feasible thing to think that you can love what you're working on and who you're working on it with. Um, have you got any, like, just inspiration, I guess, you'd want to give back to people your kids' age, for how you can start actually just really enjoying your career and why, why you should really care about your career at a younger age, because the result is that you get to spend your life working on amazing projects like you do.

I mean, I think, I think a lot of people approach work like that. They, they see it as it's a job that they have to do. They obviously, people need to earn money to be able to live, um, and, and it's probably really easy to get stuck into a career career path that is difficult to then change. So it's probably an important thing to think about early on in your career because you're right, you spend a lot of hours at work, um, and if you don't enjoy that, it's going to be a pretty miserable life, I would say. Um, I have always, um, in everything, I've sort of thrown myself into everything that I've done, um, and, and yeah, I mean, I, I've certainly done jobs that have probably some of them are more mundane than others, um, but that's helped me sort of become the person I am now. Um, but there's loads of careers that, that you can do and you can enjoy. I mean, I think the sort of holy grail is, is, is the blend between sort of work and life. If you, if you stop using the term work and you just, you, you sort of evening becomes your day and it sort of all blends together, I mean, what an amazing way to to be, um, because, um, yeah, you, you're probably going to end up working in your life for sort of 30, 40, maybe even 50 years, um, and that's a long time to be working like 40, 50 hours a week, or if you really want to drive yourself, 60+ hours a week, um. So if you're not enjoying it, um, you're probably in the wrong career, um, and that, that might be a difficult decision to make, um, but I know loads of people that got to a certain point, realized it wasn't for them, and, and changed careers, um, and then they never looked back. And, and I think if I've got any advice, never be afraid to take a step back to take two steps forward, um, because if you're not enjoying what you're doing, you're definitely doing the wrong thing.

And I think the other interesting thing is that, you know, people will look at Broadwork or, you know, companies behind maybe events, and they'll think oh, I've got to want to be in events to go work for that company. But you'll have finance roles, you'll have people that do legal, like there's so many different entry points, right?

Yeah, there's no, there's no difference to the way Boardwick is structured to, um, an insurance company or a bank or stuff. Um, there's obviously slightly more specific roles in all of those things, so there's, there's always new nuances in all of these things. But ultimately, yeah, exactly that. We have we have a management structure, we have all the same departments. So, um, I mean, we're interviewing at the moment for someone to join, um, the finance team within, within the music side of the business. And it's really nice because you interview people who have been ACA qualified and they're accountants, but all they ever want to do is work in music. And, and so, and it is that being that ability to be able to take your technical skill and marry them with your sort of life, hobbies, interests. Um, and, and, and yeah, the, the, the sort of desire for people to want to do that is massive. Um, but Broadwick's not a unique business. Like, there are other Broadwicks out there. So don't think that working in finance necessarily is just like looking at spreadsheets all the time. Um, it is far from that. Um, don't think working as in law has to be the way that it's always portrayed. I mean, we've got 3 lawyers just in-house working for Baldric that have worked for all sorts of different companies. So yeah, yeah, you're exactly right. Baldric has loads of opportunities for all sorts of different people, as does other companies. I think it's good to choose an industry that you want to be in, and then once you've chosen the industry, just do your research and look at what companies work in that industry. Once you've started looking at various different companies, try to understand how they operate culturally and see if, if, um, because you can't create culture. Created culture is, is, is fake. It just needs to be a natural thing. And Broadwick has created, as, sorry, has sort of developed culture because of the people that we employ. Um, and so if you're, if you're interested in a company, make sure you really understand what makes that company tick. Um, and it's so easy to do that now because everyone's on LinkedIn, so you can look at every single person in the company pretty much. A lot of them will have Instagram or, or various other social media channels. So gone are the days where you sort of turn up at an interview and, um, you know nothing about the company. And not— well, you should know about the company because everyone always looked at websites, etc., but you can go so much deeper than that. And you should remember that the person interviewing doing you has probably done the same on you. Um, so, so make sure that, that you, you're prepared for that. But, um, I think the culture of a business is as important as what that business does.

I think this is what's been so great about this interview is just that, you know, really, I think someone will come out the back of this feeling like it's far more accessible and feasible to actually go work in a Broadway or, you know, be part of this, a team that they love and be working on something they want. And my final question to you, which I ask every single one of my guests, is that when you first started off on your career journey, you might have had a certain idea of what success might go on to look like. But fast forward everything you've learned and achieved along the way, what is your definition of success and how has it changed?

Yeah, I mean, I generally think like a lot of people, I think when I was younger I probably always wanted to become a millionaire, which is like quite like sort of deeply like just commercial thing to do. I mean, a millionaire now is not as valuable as it was when I was starting out. You probably need to be a 10 times millionaire to have wealth. But I think as my career's developed, I mean, money's good, but I think money comes and you don't, it's definitely not, I know it's like a real cliché, but it's not actually what makes you happy. What makes you happy is like, like the, just the fulfillment of delivering and doing something great in your life. Um, and then once you've done that, then if you can sort of pass on that to either your family— so obviously I've got children, so watching them develop is amazing— but the people that work for you or the people you'll meet, um, that's way more fulfilling than, than having loads and loads of money. I mean, I, I generally I'm not saying money's not important because it is and it opens up loads of opportunities, but it's not, you don't sit there thinking, oh great, look at how much money I've made. What you actually think about is, wow, like when I started out, I never thought I would be doing what I'm doing today. And yeah, I think that's what it is, is sort of creating something, like, and I think legacy is a strong word, but just seeing a physical business that you've built up. I mean, my businesses have all sort of been, I started one, it's been glued with this, and then we've merged and stuff. But I generally started in the basement of a house that I had, and it was a 3/4 height basement, so it wasn't even a full height ceiling. So when you were sitting at your desk, it was fine, but when you stood up, you had to crouch down. We had the washing machine and tumble dryer in the basement as well, so I had to make sure that my wife wasn't like doing washing while I was working or on important calls. My kids would sometimes come down while I was in the middle of, of doing something, um, and that's where I started. Um, Border It Today, you've got 160 employees, we've got, um, venues across the country. We've just opened up a new venue in Brooklyn. So to think about that and, and And not once have I thought about any of the money about that. It's, it's more about sort of creating something and building something, not just for now, but, but maybe the future as well.

Simon, thanks so much for coming on. It's been great.

Absolute pleasure.