Unlock Your Storytelling Superpower | Robbie Crabtree (Coach)

If I ask anyone to tell me a story off the top of their head, it's going to be sloppy. And what you'll do is you'll go down this U shape because you take that story and you start to memorize it, which always gets the feedback from people of Robby. I don't want to memorize it because then it's going to sound robotic, it's going to sound rehearsed. And they're right. It absolutely does. But you have to memorize it before you can get out of that U shape. So, like, as you come down the U, it sounds rehearsed, but it starts to sound more polished. And then what happens is there's this moment where you go from memorized to all of a sudden it becomes internal. And when it becomes internalized, you shoot up the U up to the top, right where it now sounds both natural and polished. Which is why the. The best speakers, when we all, all see impromptu, I'll put that in air quotes.

Speaking.

It's not impromptu. They've told the story dozens, hundreds, thousands of times, which is why it sounds so perfect.

My guest today is Robbie Crabtree, founder of Competitive Storytelling. Robbie has helped over 100 founders and product leaders raise $600 million through storytelling. He's also an ex prosecutor who has overseen 100 criminal cases. We talked about how to systematically craft a great story, how to build your story bank, and how to deliver your story to capture your audience's attention. I've struggled with storytelling myself, and Robbie's tips were incredibly helpful. If you enjoy our conversation, please like and subscribe and subscribe to support the podcast. How would you summarize what a great story is?

I'll give you two because I think it's useful. One is going to be from one of my friends, Jeremy Connell Wade. And I think he nailed it when he said storytelling is about making people feel something so they will do something. I think that really sums it up nicely. When I talk about storytelling, the way that I like to describe it is storytelling is world building and inviting the audience to collaborate with you.

Interesting, because that's pretty different because most people think of storytelling as just like telling your story. Right. There's not really a kind of like a back and forth. That's an interesting perspective.

Yeah, well, when I say collaborate with you, it's not that they're necessarily saying anything or doing anything. It's that they transport themselves into that world that you're talking about. Right. If I'm talking about the world of being a trial lawyer, I'M inviting you to come in and sit in that jury box. As I'm describing what I'm talking about in that story, if I'm talking about the future of what I want to build or where I want to go, I'm inviting you to say, is this the world that you want to live in? Is this a world that you want to be a part of? And whatever be a part of means to you. It could mean invest. It could mean join the team. It could mean support and share the message around. Like, that's what I mean by collaborate is when you see that world, you want to be a part of it and further that story in some meaningful way.

And I feel like the best storytellers, like you could be speaking to a jury or like a couple hundred people in your audience, but they're able to kind of make that personal one on one connection. It feels like they're speaking to you. Right. Do you agree?

Or this gets to the whole kind of problem with the word storytelling, actually, in my opinion, is it's the wrong term. It really should be story sharing. The way that you have that one on one connection is you open up and you share, and it's an act of extreme vulnerability. Because when I share my story, I'm inviting you to feel how I felt, see the world how I see it, and I'm trusting that you're not going to judge me harshly. So I always say story sharing is about opening up your brain to show the world how you think, opening up your eyes so that they can see how you see the world, and opening up your heart so they can see how you feel, which is really what binds us together. That's why I say it really is story sharing. Because if you're just storytelling and you're just reciting facts, you're not inviting that other person in, which is where it really becomes story sharing and shines.

That makes sense. That makes sense. So, you know, we've all been at these dinner parties where someone can just like, tell a really great story just like off the cuff. But I think, you know, you have a bunch of writing about how this actually takes a lot of prep work. So curious. What, what, what is your approach to building a kind of a great story from scratch?

All those great storytellers and speakers are not doing it on the fly. Even when they're doing something that is technically on the fly. They've put in so many base reps that they know all the beats to hit. So this really goes back to this idea that I came up with when I was a trial lawyer. And what I called it was my personal framework at the time. Now I call it the competitive storytelling framework because that's my company. But it was just this five part strategy of what's the goal, what's. What's the emotion the audience needs to feel? Then what's your hook, what's your theme, what's your dismount. And if we think about that, the first two are strategy, the last three are more tactics. If you work through that framework, you'll start to build out the, the, the skeleton of your, of your story. You'll understand what you're trying to make someone feel. And then you're going to build out these pieces that help guide you through that. From there you can figure out what structure makes the most sense. And then I think you actually have seen my U shaped graph approach, which is the worst name concept I have, but it's still a. I can go more into that. But you essentially practice it, refine it, go through it enough times where you go on this U shaped graph kind of journey and get to a level of mastery.

So just to kind of. Let's start with the five point framework first. Right. So like just to reiterate, it's define your goal, identify the emotion, create the hook and then I think it's like focus on a theme and end with a memorable conclusion. Right? Yep, exactly. Do you have a, do you have like a example of that just to kind of bring to life either from your lawyer Bayes or. Yeah, just like a example.

The last case I ever tried was a, I actually was on the defense side and the murder case, the. It was a brother on brother and the brother did kill his other brother and it was super tragic and really sad and an awful case. But I believe that he acted in self defense. Like I was absolutely sure that he acted in self defense. So took on the case and went through it. Now he admitted to killing his brother. He said some terrible things in the heat of the moment. Like there were lots of bad facts in that case. My job was to go to a jury and convince them to not find this guy guilty even though he did kill his brother. Which is not an easy thing to do. So my five point framework was what's my goal? My goal was I needed to make the jury think that just because someone dies doesn't mean someone else should go to prison. That was the goal, like just to disrupt their traditional way of thinking that if someone dies, someone goes to prison. And I had to disrupt that. So that was my only goal. It wasn't to get them to say not guilty. It was just to make them think that there can be instances where just because someone dies doesn't mean that they should go to prison. Now, what do I need the jury to feel in that moment? I needed them to feel like this. My. My client had no other choice. And that his life was already ruined from what he had to do in that mom. He would live with that grief for the rest of his life. And he was already suffering more than anybody else could ever make him. That's the feeling. So then I went into, okay, let's hook theme, dismount, and all of that. So I actually went back to a source of inspiration that I have. I think the best speaker storytellers. We just have swipe files and inspiration files and all sorts of things that we go back and we pull from. And one of mine is the West Wing. I've used the West Wing in multiple trials at this point, very successfully on both sides. And in this case, there's an episode where it's called Take the Sabbath. And it's. Toby Ziegler is wrestling with the death penalty in the first season of the West Wing. And he's talking to his rabbi about what he can do on this and how he feels and all this things. And I remember the rabbi tells Toby, he says, ven like this. My. My client had no other choice and that his life was already ruined from what he had to do in that moment. And he would live grief for the rest of his life. And he was already suffering more than anybody else could ever make him. That's the feeling. So then I went into, okay, let's hook this thing with the death penalty in. In the first season of the West Wing. And he's talking to his rabbi about what he can do on this and how he feels and all this things. And I remember the rabbi tells Toby, he says, ven not Jewish is the. The theme of what he's talking about. Now, I'm obviously not going to get up and stand in front of a jury in Texas and say, vengeance is not Jewish. But my, my theme ended theme, dismount and, and. And all of that. So I actually went back to a source of inspiration that I have. I think the being vengeance is not justice. So I did a little bit of a word play and all of a sudden everything in my closing argument pointed back to this idea. Vengeance is not justice. Vengeance is not justice. Then we have to think about. So that's the theme. Then we go to what's the beginning and what's the end. So what's the hook and what's the dismount? My hook in this case was coming up Best speaker storytellers. We just have swipe files and inspiration files and all sorts of things that we go back and we pull from. And one of mine is the West Wing. I've used the West Wing in multiple trials at this point, very successfully on both sides. And in this case, there's an episode where it's called Take the Sabbath. And it's Toby Ziegler is rest and challenging why the prosecutor was doing what they were doing. That this was just like. That they actually had no empathy and were not doing justice. I wanted to relay it back into what I was saying inside of my. My. My theme, right? And so I knew that I needed to attack the prosecutor and dealing with the death penalty in the first season of the West Wing. And he's talking to his rabbi what was going to come next, because they always have the final word. So my hook was all about what he can do on this and how he feels and all this things. And I remember the rabbi tells Toby, he says, vengeance is not Jewish is the theme of what he's talking about. Now, I'm obviously not going to get up and stand in front of a jury in Texas and say, vengeance is not Jewish. But my theme ended up being vengeance is not justice. So I did a little bit of a wordplay. And all of a sudden everything in my closing argument pointed back to this idea. Vengeance is not justice. Vengeance is not justice. Then we have to think about. So that's the theme. Then we go to what's the beginning and what's the end? So what's the hook and what's the dismount? My hook in this case was coming up and challenging why the prosecutor was doing what they were doing. That this was just like. That they actually had no empathy and were not doing justice. I wanted to relay it back into what I was saying inside of my. My. My theme, right? And so I. I knew that I needed to attack the prosecutor and what was going to come next, because they always have the final, final word. So my hook was all about why the. The. The jury needed to look at this prosecutor different from what they were about to come up and say, because I knew that they were going to yell and scream, bang their fists on the table. And so I set it up that way. That was. My hook was essentially creating a fight between, like, it's us versus them, and then the Dismount was really heavy on the emotional piece, which is, you know, and I don't remember the exact words that I said, but the hook was around the idea of this brother and this family have already suffered so much. Nobody would have ever wanted to be in that situation. And you can't judge what you would have done. You can only judge what he did in that situation. And you've seen his remorse, you've seen how he's felt, you've seen the way that he has tried to take care of his family the best way that he can. My ask of you is to remember what is the purpose of your role here? And that's how I ended with that big, what is the purpose of your role here? And I led throughout that entire closing argument of vengeance is not justice. So I was trying to tie everything into allowing them to take ownership of this idea that their job was not vengeance, their job was justice. And if I could get them to grab onto that and not tell them what they need to do, but just pose that big question as the dismount, if I can make them feel that in question and plant a seed just enough, I could win. And ultimately the jury did come back after about a two day deliberation, I believe, and came back with a not guilty verdict on murder. And he was able to go home to his family and continue living his life, which was, you know, a pretty, pretty huge victory given what, what had gone on. And the prosecutors in the case were just shocked.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, you definitely changed that man's life, no doubt about it. Yeah. And like, going back to, going back to the. The vengeance is not just as like, you know, like, it kind of goes back to what you wrote about, which is like, a lot of people only remember a couple things from a story. So you have this, like here, and.

That'S how I ended with that big, what is the purpose of your role here? And I led throughout that entire closing argument of vengeance is not justice. So I was trying to tie everything into allowing them to take ownership of this idea that their job was not vengeance, their job was justice. And if I could get them to grab onto that and not tell them what they need to do, but just pose that big question as the dismount if I can make them feel worse.

Storytelling concept. Like, I'm curious if you actually said the words vengeance is not justice during your closing argument or like, repeated it many times.

Yeah, sometimes the theme is implied, sometimes it's spoken and it's explicit. In this case, it was explicit. And Also repeated. Given that from a rhetoric standpoint, repetition is one of our most powerful tools. So the more that I could latch onto that. And there's a rhythm, like a great storyteller speaker thinks about building rhythm into the way that they speak. Because to your point, they might only remember one thing. And if I can make that one thing, that vengeance is not justice, I have a shot. Doesn't mean I'm going to win, but it means I have a chance. And that's really what I think. A lot of people get wrong when it comes to storytelling and speaking. They want to convince, they want to that in question and plant a seed just enough I could win. And ultimately the jury did come back after about a two day deliberation, I believe, and came back with a not guilty verdict on murder. And he was able to go home to his family and continue living his life, which was, you know, a pretty, pretty huge victory given what had gone on. And the prosecutors in the case were just shocked.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, you definitely changed that man's life. No doubt.

You have the other person say, Robbie, you're right. It's more like the movie Inception where you're planting a seed and you're inviting them to take ownership over it and reach that decision themselves.

Yeah. So you want to have them arrive at the answer themselves as opposed to just give them the answer or tell them the answer.

Right, that's kind of exactly.

Yeah. It's funny you mentioned politicians. Like, maybe we can talk a little bit about Barack Obama or Donald Trump. It's interesting to think about their slogans and try to think about what kind of emotion they're trying to elicit. Like, Obama is like, you know, yes, we can, and Trump is like, make America great again. Or like build the wall. They're like, they're like different emotions. Right. Like, do you want to elaborate a little bit on that or.

Yeah, I mean, politicians are great at this. They have to be. They have to speak in the.

Yeah. And like going back to, going back to the vengeance is not justice. Like, you know, it kind of goes back to what you wrote about, which.

Is like very short phrases. And actually the, the, this like 10 word storytelling came from again, the West Wing.

There's, there's a, like a lot of people only remember a couple things from a story. So. So you have this like 10 word storytelling concept. Like I'm, I'm curious if you actually said the words avengers is not justice during your.

We're in the political debates and talking about like these 10 word answers. And I just, I just took that. I was like, oh, that's like a brilliant way of thinking about storytelling too. Like the Steve Jobs thousand songs in your pocket. Incredible. Like ten worst storytelling there. It's, it's insane. The politicians are. Going back to your point. You know, the interesting thing you have Trump's Make America great again, which is actually a reference to Ronald Reagan. Like, that is a slogan that Reagan had when he was running. Most people don't realize, again, how much repetition and like pulling from other sources that we're doing. So whereas it's always interesting to me to look out, like, people got very upset at that slogan, you know, and at Trump during that period of time. But like, that slogan is, is from the 80s and, you know, was from Ronald Reagan. And, and by all accounts, you know, was, was pretty successful in, in many ways looking at, at kind of closing.

Argument or like repeated it many times.

Yeah. Sometimes the theme is implied, sometimes it's US History. But what we can see is there's some slogans that are more kind, like spoken and it's explicit. In this case, it was explicit and also repeated. Given that from a rhetoric standpoint, repetition is one of our most powerful tools. So the more that I could latch onto that. And there's a rhythm, like a great storyteller speaker thinks about building rhythm in doomsday. Like, there are more fear driven and then there are some that are more hope and inspirational driven. So if we think about the difference. Right. You know, Build the wall. Build the wall is a, is not an inspiring message. Build the wall is like there is a threat that we are trying to prevent from getting to us. So like, that is playing into more like the fear now doesn't mean that that's bad because businesses and leaders all the time do it. Like both parties do it. Businesses play into fear of like, what you're going to miss out or what you're going to lose. Like, it's very classic rhetoric. But we also have the inspiring rhetoric, right, which is the, you know, yes, we can change that. We can believe in. These are, these are positive, inspiring messages. Now, you also have to look at the timing of when these slogans come out. Why the way that they speak. Because to your point, they might only remember one thing. And if I can make that one thing, that vengeance is not justice, I have a shot. Doesn't mean I'm going to win, but it means I have a chance. And that's really what I think a lot of people get wrong when it comes to storytelling and speaking they want to convince. They want to have the other person say, Robbie, you're right. It's more like the movie Inception where the jury needed to look at this prosecutor different from what they were about to come up and say. Because I knew that they were going to yell and scream, bang. Their fists on the table. So I set it up that way. That was my hook was essentially creating a fight between like it's us versus them. And then the dismount was really heavy on the emotional piece, which is, you know, and I don't remember the exact words that I said, but the hook was around the idea of this brother and this family. Like the country might be more receptive to specific messaging that all of this goes into figuring out what those slogans should be, what that 10 word storytelling should be. But I do think most people would benefit from practicing 10 word storytelling in their business and what they do and how they see the world and trying to distill these ideas into very simple language that creates emotion at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

And let's go back to the U shape process. Right.

Like.

You know, when I think about creating a story from scratch, either like I sit on my computer and try to write it out or maybe like I'm talking to myself in the mirror, both of which are kind of awkward, but I kind of like the U shape process because I think your advice is to just go outside and use.

Planting a seed and you're inviting them to take ownership over it and reach that decision themselves.

So you want to have them arrive at the answer themselves as opposed to just give them the answer or tell them the answer. Right.

That's kind of exactly. Yeah.

It's funny you mentioned politicians. Maybe we can talk a little bit about Barack Obama or Donald Trump. It's interesting to think about their slogans and try to think of how to transcribe what you're saying. Talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah. Instead of getting in our way when we're trying to create a story from scratch. Right. And this is what happens. Like we sit down and we write and we're reading it as we write and we hit this moment, we're like, I don't like that. This sucks. Ah, this feels unnatural. And so we delete it. We stop or we edit. And like you, you can't, you can't start with a story or a speech or really anything when it comes to communication. If you're going to be starting stopping editing in the midst, like, it's just not a good thing. Like really do need to just go into flow and get the ideas out. This is why I like transcribing things and just having someone walk and, and speak or you know, sit down just like on your couch and just like speak into to your phone and transcribe it. What it really is doing is we're trying to brain dump or word vomit. Whichever term of art you like to use doesn't really matter to me. You're doing that and then you're taking.

About what kind of emotion they're trying to elicit. You know, like, like Obama is like, you know, yes, we can and Trump is like make America great again. Or like build a wall. They're like, they're like different emotions. Right? Like, do you want to elaborate a little bit on that or.

Yeah, I mean politicians are great at this. They have to be. They have to speak in these like very short phrases. And actually the, this like 10 word storytelling came from again, the West Wing. There's, there's a transcription and you're looking at it to figure out, okay, where is the story here? And the way that I like to go about this is I just start highlighting the points that I think are most relevant, that I think are the most useful, the most important, and I just delete everything else. So then now all I have are these highlighted portions, which is generally the core pieces that I need for the story or the speech that I'm creating. Now I've got to clean it up, I've got to add transitions, I've got to go and you know, maybe do some research to bring in numbers and data to back up some of the things that I was just speaking out loud. But what happens in that process is you've now word vomited enough so you have all the raw ingredients, you've distilled it down into the core pieces that you need, and then it's just a matter of structuring and rearranging and getting all the pieces together. Once you have that, now we have a story that you can go out there and practice. And this takes us to the U shaped graph. Like once we have the content, we move from this. If I ask anyone to tell me a story off the top of their head, it's going to sound natural because they're, they're just speaking off the top of their head, but it's going to be sloppy. Even we're in the political debates and talking about like these 10 word answers and I just, I just took that, I was like, oh, that's like a brilliant way of thinking about Storytelling too. Like the Steve Jobs thousand songs in your pocket incredible. Like ten word storytelling there. It's insane. The politicians. So going back to your point, you know the interesting thing, you have Trump's Make America great again, which is actually a reference to Ronald Reagan. Like that is a slogan that Reagan had when he was Even the most polished speakers, if they don't have any preparation going into the story, it's still sloppy for them. Like if I hear people that I know are really, really articulate and I ask them to just wing something, it's still going to be sloppy in comparison to what I know they're capable of doing. And that's because they haven't had time to go through this U shaped process. So natural and sloppy is at the top, I guess left, if I'm looking at it. And what you'll do is you'll go down this U shape because you take that story and you start to memorize it, which always gets the feedback from people of Robby. I don't want to memorize it because then it's going to sound robotic, it's going to sound rehearsed. And they're right, it absolutely does. It sounds rehearsed, but you have to memorize it before you can get out of that U shape. So like as you come down the U, it sounds rehearsed but it starts to sound running. Most people don't realize again how much repetition and like pulling from other sources that we're doing. So whereas it's always interesting to me to look out like people got very upset at that slogan, you know, and at Trump during that period of time. But like that slogan is, is from the 80s and you know, was from Ronald Reagan and by all accounts, you know, was, was pretty successful in many ways, looking at kind of how more polished. And then what happens is there's this moment where you go from memorized to all of a sudden it becomes internalized. And when it becomes internalized, you shoot up the U up to the top, right where it now sounds both natural and polished. Which is why the best speakers, when we all see impromptu, I'll put that in air quotes speaking. It's not impromptu. They've told the story dozens, hundreds, thousands of times, which is why it sounds so perfect. It's just like a comedian, right? A comedian goes out there and tests every little bit of their set. I remember Kevin Hart once was talking about how he goes about this and he will test it at a small venue and then he'll go to a bigger venue and then he'll go to a bigger venue before he actually goes on national tours. But what stood out to me most was he wasn't just listening for if people lack US History. But what we can see is there are some slogans that are more kind of like doomsday. Like there are more fear driven and then there are some that are more hope and inspirational driven. So if we think about the difference, right, you know, build the wall. Build the wall is a. Is not an inspiring message. Build the wall is like there is a threat. He was listening to how they laughed. He was listening for a very specific type of laughter at different parts to tell him that he had it ready to go out and deliver it on the big stage. And he would say, like, sometimes I've been working on a set for a year and then I don't get the feedback that I need and I start back at the beginning. Like just scraps a year of work because it's not polished enough, is not natural enough. He doesn't have the beats down. Matthew McConaughey talks about this process too, when he's reading a script and going through figuring out how he wants to embody the character. So the interesting thing is, if you look at this, actors, comedians, business leaders, whoever it is, are all going like the ones who are at the top of their fields. This is not for like the average people. It's for the ones who want to be at the top are all going through the exact same process in different ways, but all to get to the same that we are trying to prevent from getting to us. So like, that is playing into more like the fear now doesn't mean that that's end goal.

So do you have. When you're going back up the curve, like, let's take the business leader or the founder or the tech professional, right? Let's say you're trying to make a speech or like trying to make a pitch, like so, so bad.

Because businesses and leaders all the time do it like both parties do it. Businesses play into fear of like what you're going to miss out or what you're going to lose. Like, it's very classic rhetoric. But we also have the inspiring rhetoric, right? Which is the, you know, yes, we can change that we can believe in. These are. These are positive.

Should we try to actually talk preview of someone else as opposed to just like talk to ourselves or what's the best way to kind of go from memorized to internalized?

Any. Any person working? Because a lot of your audience I know are people who work in Tech, Right. Work in tech. And then also creators which like the storytelling skill is critical if you want to. If you're working inside of tech and you can tell a great story, you have such a huge leg up on everybody else around you and you can move up into leadership positions and get tons, tons more impact and buy in for all the things you're doing. Same for a creator. If you can tell really compelling stories like you can get other people bought in and really build a team that can help you. Inspiring messages. Now you also have to look at the timing of when these slogans come out. Why like the country might be more receptive to specific messaging that all of this goes into all sorts of different things. So when I think about this, you should always be testing like you cannot do this on your own. That doesn't mean you have to go out and pay anybody. It doesn't mean that you have to do anything like that. I'll give a real example. When I was a trial lawyer, my poor, poor, poor family and friends, they would hear me give opening statements, figuring out what those slogans should be, what that 10 word storytelling should be. But I do think most people statements and closing arguments so many times and as I went further would benefit from practicing 10 word storytelling in, in their, like in their business and what they do and my career, you know, they got used to it and so they, I wouldn't even at the beginning I'd be like, hey, can I, can I tell you my opening statement? And they'd be like, yeah, of course, I did it so many times. And they, they would just like run if I would ask them that. So I would find ways to just like somehow like start saying it out of the blue. If I did that, they would, they would listen and the reason it was valuable. And I'll tie it back to everyone when they're practicing their story and trying to get up the U shape. Different audiences and different people are going to respond differently. The more practice you do, the better you're going to get. I know that that is the most basic advice ever, but the road to mastery of this stuff is paved by 10th how they see the world and trying to distill these ideas into very simple language that creates emotion at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

And let's, let's go back to the U shape process. Right.

Thousand reps. And the more you do it, the quicker that that kind of improvement loop becomes where now I might need to only practice a story three, four or five times before it's really polished. Whereas When I started, I was practicing.

You know, when I think about creating a story from scratch, either, like I said on my computer and try to write it out, or maybe like, I'm talking to myself in the mirror, both of which are kind of awkward, but.

You know, opening statements, closing arguments, 30, 40, 50 times before I'd ever deliver them. So you just get better because you have all these foundational pieces where it's really easy to figure out the beats to hit.

Got it, Got it. So, along similar lines, you mentioned how, you know, everyone who's told a story impromptu actually has a story bank, vertical stories. And I know you also kind of coach founders and executives intelligence stories. And I think you have something about, like, where most tech people and founders need to have, like, two or three types of stories in their bank. Right. There's like a sort of kind of past and sort of kind of future. Maybe we're going to talk a little bit. I kind of like the usain process because I think your advice is just like, go outside and like, you know, use the app to transcribe what you're saying. Maybe talk a little bit more about that.

Yeah. Instead of getting in our way, but more about. So there's two core stories which you're hitting on in terms of kind of leadership, and. And that's the. The origin story and then the vision story. So, origin story. When we're trying to create a story from scratch, right? And this is what happens. Like, we sit down and we write, and we're reading it as we write, and it is how you got to where you are, what makes you special, why you care about what you're doing. The origin story. We hit this moment, we're like, I don't like that. This sucks. Ah, this feels unnatural. And so we delete. It creates the ethos of why you're the right person to be doing the thing that you're doing, whatever that thing is, the pathos is the emotion that they feel behind it, Right. This is, you know, why you're special, why you care. That's the emotional piece. Then when we think about the vision story, the vision story is all talking about the future. Too many people get stuck in telling stories about the here and now, which is fine, but that doesn't inspire people to really act. So the future vision is, you know, what is that big, bold, ambitious future that you see when we stop, when we edit? And like, you, you can't. You can't start with a story or speech or really anything when it comes to communication. If you're going to be starting stopping editing in the. And this is why I call it world building. Because your job is to build that world in such a way that like you essentially went and put in a prompt into, you know, into mid journey and it pops out this image of this is what the world looks like up ahead. Do you want to be involved? Do you believe this is possible? And what we're essentially doing is because we're bridging the past to the future. We're leaving a lot of like this kind of unknown. It's like, it's just not a good thing. Like, you really do need to just go into flow and get the ideas out. This is why I like transcribing things and just having someone walk and speak or, you know, sit down on messy middle alone and inviting anyone who listens to it to kind of put those pieces together themselves. So that's why I say they're the two core stories to hit for anyone in tech, any creator, any founder, any business executive. Like, if you don't have those things nailed, you are not a storyteller in today's era.

So for the original story, I'm just.

On your couch and just speak into your phone and transcribe it. What it really is doing is we're trying to bot.

I just want to interview Candice. What I like to like, they come with their resume for their accomplishments, but what I like to ask them about is like, you know, where did you fuck up and where did you learn from it? Right? Like, so the orange story is kind of like. Like you mentioned how it used to be like the hero's journey. There needs to be like some sort of challenge as part of it, right?

Well, a lot of times actually, when, when I'm going into a full origin story, I'll. I'll hit brain dump or word vomit. Whichever term of art you like to use, it doesn't really matter to me. You're doing that and then you're taking that transcription and you're looking at it to figure out, okay, where is the story here? And the way that I like to go about this is I just start highlighting the points that I think are most relevant that I think are the most useful. The challenge that is actually more meaningful inside of my origin story is when I was a child abuse prosecutor and I was looking at all the cases that I was trying. And even when I would win a case, the victim's life had still been ruined. It had still been, you know, completely disrupted. And then I would go to work the next day and there would be 10, 15 brand new cases on my desk that were just as bad. And the challenge that came up to me was, am I solving a problem? Am I really doing any good? And looking in the mirror, having that realization of I get a lot of, you know, people say nice things to me. I get lots of personal validation of, wow, your job is so incredible, you're doing amazing work. But internally I felt really broken because I wasn't having a big enough impact. I wasn't creating less child abuse cases. I was just most important and I just delete everything else. So then now all I have are these highlighted portions, which is generally the core pieces that I need for the story or the speech that I'm creating now saying, the person who did this is now going to go to prison and pay for it. So for me, the call to the wild, if you will, from the hero's journey, the challenge is actually overcoming that and figuring out a way to solve. I've got to clean it up, I've got to add transitions, I've got to go and, you know, maybe do some research to bring in numbers and data to back up some of the things that I was just speaking out loud. But what happens in that process is you've now, how do I have a bigger impact in the world? How do I play bigger than what I am? And then that normally leads into, you know, building an ed tech company and having no idea what I was doing and being completely lost and like, you know, maxing out credit cards and trying to do all this stuff and being like, I'm going to fail and this is going to be miserable. And then there's like, you know, some rise and fall throughout there of like the wins and losses and the wins and more losses and all that sort of stuff. So there's this like, up, if you've ever seen the movie up from Pixar, the opening, you know, couple minutes is like this. Rise and fall, Rise and fall. Rise and fall. Rise and fall. Which my origin story has as well. When I have more time to like kind of like flesh it out and really go deep. Because yes, it needs now word vomited enough so you have all the raw ingredients. You've distilled it down into the core pieces that you need challenges, it needs struggles, it needs things that show you're a human being and you've overcome stuff in your life.

Yeah, those six minutes from up is like, like with the relationship is like a master story. I don't actually remember the rest of the Movie. But I remember those six minutes that started a movie. Yeah.

Yep. And then it's just a matter of structuring and rearranging and getting all the pieces together. Once you have that, now we have.

And with the vision story, you, you, it's interesting that you didn't talk about.

Like a story that you can go out there and practice. And this takes us to the U shaped graph. Like, once we have the content, we move from this. If I ask anyone to tell me a story off the top of their.

Head, or maybe this is not for your clients, but like if I was a prospective founder coming to you, like, you know, you talk about kind of like the tactics of like, hey, you know, I can help you get more funding or like, I can help you like get more customers. You actually painted a broader vision than that. Or maybe like if you talk to a founder, you have a different approach.

Like, nope, that's the vision story. Because if somebody subscribes to that idea, it's going to sound natural because they're just speaking off the top of their head. But it's going to be sloppy. Even saying I want that world to exist, they can ask that follow up question, okay, how do we pull that off? That's a how question. But the vision story doesn't need to include the how. The vision story is just showing the what and why, why it matters. And if we do that right, everything else, the, the, even the most polished speakers, if they don't have any preparation going into the story, it's still sloppy for them. The people that you want to be pulled into that vision story will find themselves and come to you and say, like, if I hear people that I know are really, really articulate and I ask them to just wing something, it's still going to be sloppy in comparison to what I know they're capable of doing. And that's because they haven't had time to go through this U shaped process. I, I, that world you talk about, I want to be, I want to be one of those leaders. I want to be one of those people who solves those problems. I want to change the course of where this world is going. Like, I think I'm one of the people you're talking about. How does that actually work? What is needed to happen to pull that off? And then we can go into all those dynamics. But that's why I say level one storytelling is just about setting the big vision.

Got it. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

So natural and sloppy is at the top, I guess, left if I'm looking at it. And what you'll do is you'll go down this U shape.

Let's kind of wrap up by talking about story delivery. Like, you know, if I was going to give a big speech or like, go present to some execs or something, like, how do I deliver my story in a very memorable way? Like, is there any, like, tactics that I can use to do that?

Memorability in storytelling comes from dynamics in the way you deliver it, right? So everyone knows what. Because you take that story and you start to memorize it, which always gets the feedback from people of Robbie. I don't want to memorize it because then it's going to sound robotic, it's going to sound rehearsed. And they're right. It absolutely monotone is. But there's lots of mono things. You can be mono paced, mono volume, all sorts of different things. There are plenty of studies out there to show this. The most memorable speeches are the ones that have the biggest changes between them. So that rise and fall, the shifts between tone, the shifts between speed and pacing, and all of this, and I call it at its core, musicality when you're speaking, when you're delivering, you want it to be musical. Now, this does not mean that everybody slowly does. It sounds rehearsed, but you have to sound the same, right? Just like there are very different types of music, there's very different types of speaking. Steve Jobs does not present the same way as MLK does. Oprah does not present the the same way that Sarah Blakely does. They are all wildly different in their ways, but they are compelling because all of them understand the way to use their voice as an instrument, which is one of the key things to remember. So when we're speaking, we want to also create melody so that it's easier to remember. This is, you know, take some practice and take some dynamics. But the easiest way to. To fix these types of things is record yourself and play it back and see, am I changing my tone? Am I changing my pacing? Am I changing my volume? Am I doing things with my body? Like if I'm sitting just very. To memorize it before you can get out of that U shape. So, like, as you come down the U, it sounds rehearsed, but it starts to sound closed. And I start. Peter, it's great to meet you today. I'm really excited to talk to you. We're going to have a great discussion about storytelling and how important it is. And this is what we're going to do because we have to really break down three different parts of storytelling in order to do, like, you. You. First off, you would be like, robbie, we gotta end this. We gotta end this. It's not gonna work. And. And if you publish it, you would be like, what is wrong with this person? Whereas then, like, when I come out of it here, you can see me, you know, I'm changing tone and facial expression. I'm more polished. And then what happens is there's this moment where you go from memorized to all of a sudden, it becomes internalized. And when it becomes internalized, you shoot up the. You up to the top, right where it now sounds both natural and polished. Which is why the best speakers, when we all see impromptu and using my hands and body language, and I can speed up if I want to talk really fast, and for certain things, you hit it really slow to show it matters. And we can do all these things over time, and you can practice them and see yourself come to life. But that's when I say about creating a compelling story. Figure out where your dynamics lack. And then the other thing is, watch speakers, who you appreciate and who you admire, and see why you admire and appreciate those speakers and how you can take things from them and replicate it. When I was a trialer, one of the things I did is I just watched a ton of my colleagues try cases, and I just picked up on the things that I liked. I would try things and see if they worked for me. Some of my, like, favorite trial lawyers, I could do nothing like they did because they had a very different way that they carried themselves. But I still would try to learn from that. In fact, I would always think that the best trial lawyer was the one who yelled and screamed really loud. That's how I thought when I started. And I tried that early on in my career, and it was very unsuccessful for me. I'll never forget, I watched one of the child abuse prosecutors in my job deliver a closing argument, and all she did was whisper, and she was super soft to them. And, I mean, the jury just absolutely fell in love with her. And I go, wow, that's a really interesting approach. So I actually became much more soft when I was speaking to a jury because it worked better for me. So what you do is you. You find these sources of inspiration, Then you see how can you replicate what they do in a way that's still authentic to you, but elevates the way that you speak.

Got it. Got it. I love that you have to be. Yeah, I really. I love the point about being authentic to yourself. And also what I found is that if you're talking about something that you actually really believe in, that you authentically care about, then you can tell a story much better most of the time. Right. Because you actually really care about whatever you're saying. So do you have just the last question. Do you have any kind of closing words of advice for aspiring storytellers, people maybe, who. I actually had a stutter early in my career too, or like, you know, when I was younger to.

I put that in air quotes.

Speaking.

It's not impromptu. They've told the story dozens, hundreds, thousands of times, which is why it sounds so perfect. It's just like a comedian, right? A comedian goes out there and tests every little bit of their set. I remember Kevin Hart once was talking about how he goes about this. And he will test it at a small venue and then he'll go to a bigger venue and then he'll go to a bigger venue.

Or people just like, have low confidence that they. They kind of have label themselves that they're not good at storytelling or they're not good at speaking. Like. Like, do you have any, you know, motivational advice for them or any closing words away from.

Storytelling is a skill to be built. It's not something you're born with. And if you tell yourself that you're not a great storyteller, I can guarantee that's going to be the reality that you live before he actually goes on national tour. But what stood out to me most was he wasn't just listening for if people laugh, he was listening to how they laugh. He was listening for a very specific type of. You can practice it, you can learn it. It's. There are a lot of things that you can do to significantly improve your storytelling and your speaking ability very quickly. It does not take years and years and years. Now, mastery, yes, mastery is going to take you years and years and years. Like you have to laughter at different parts to tell him that he had it ready to go out and deliver it on the big stage fast and love it like I do. In order to get to those. Those levels. Most people don't need to get to mastery level. Right? Most people need to get to good. Some people need to get to great. And then there's a small handful of people who need to go beyond that because of what they're trying to achieve in the world. Getting to good is something that almost anybody can do if they're willing to do a little bit of work. Watching some people understanding some basic structures, practicing, doing a little bit of game. And he would say, like, sometimes I've been working on a set for a year and then I don't get the feedback that I need. And I start back at the beginning, like just scraps a year of work because it's not polished enough. Tape review and within, you know, six months, you can be significantly better. Even if you're doing this all on your own, if you're doing it with someone like, you can improve as a storyteller in one to two months pretty significantly. And I just encourage people to think back to, especially because we're talking about tech and creators. Steve Jobs was not, was not great at storytelling. When he first got, you know, when he got fired from Apple the first time, like, that was not what made him great. He learned a ton when he went and, you know, built Pixar and spent time around all these people. When he came back to Apple, he really is not natural enough. He doesn't have the beats down. Matthew McConaughey talks about this process too when he's reading a script and going through really elevated the storytelling that he had. Now part of this is he worked with really talented people like Aaron Sorkin who, you know, wrote the West Wing and also wrote the Social Network and the these different things to help him on speeches and to see things. So he was willing to, you know, spend time to get the help. But he improved the level that he's seen as one of the greatest storytellers that we have. On the flip side, I want like my favorite storyteller is Anthony Bourdain. And why I love Anthony Bourdain is because history figuring out how he wants to embody the character. So the interesting thing is if you look at this, actors, comedians, storytelling is just raw. He was self taught. No one gave him anything. He just figured it out because he was willing to practice and experiment and write and tell people and see what resonated. So if you're out there and you think, I'm not a great storyteller, the best way to become a great storyteller is to start telling stories and then remember that it's not just about telling stories, it's about sharing stories. It's about opening up, being vulnerable and authentic in the way that you deliver those to people so that they can see the world that you see. That's where connection really starts to take off. And you'll see those gains to the point that you want to just keep getting better and better because all of a sudden people are gonna like you more. They're Gonna trust you more, they're gonna promote you, they're gonna give you money, they're gonna wanna support you, they're gonna wanna be your friends. Like, it opens up so many things for life and then it just becomes really fun. And you're like, I gotta get really great at this. So once, once you start, it's very hard to stop, which is the good thing. It's just about getting started.

Got it? Yeah. It's the same thing as any skill in life. Right. You just have to get over yourself. You gotta put in the work and like, maybe feel cringe for a little bit and you'll improve.

Yeah.

And Robbie, like, if people want to help, where can they find you online?

Find me. You know, my, my website is competitive storytelling. Co my LinkedIn. You can search my name, Robby Crabtree. You can also follow me on Twitter Obby Crab. Those are probably the best places to find me. And then I'm also also working, working on getting my book out there, which, you know, you got to see the manuscript. So. So that'll be out hopefully in 6ish months is kind of the timeline that I'm working with my publisher right now to get that out. So in the, you know, business leaders, whoever it is, are all going like the ones who are at the top of their fields. This is not for like the average people. This is for the ones who want to be at the top, are all going through the exact same process in different ways, but all to get to the same end goal.

So do you have. When you're going back up the curve, like, let's take the business leader or the founder or the, the tech professional. Right. Let's say you're trying to make a speech or like trying to make a pitch. Like so.

So by the end of the year there will be a book also around all this stuff.

Awesome. All right, Robbie, thanks so much. Should we try to actually talk preview of someone else as opposed to just like talking to ourselves or what's the best way to kind of go from memorized to internalized?

Any, any person working? Because I. A lot of your audience I know are people who will work in tech. Right, Work in tech. And then also creators, which like the storytelling skill is critical if you want to. If you're working inside of tech and you can tell a great story, you have such a huge leg up on everybody else around you and you can move up into leadership positions and get tons, tons more impact and buy in for all the things you're doing. Same for a creator, if you can tell really compelling stories. You can get other people bought in and really build a team that can help you and all sorts of different things. So when I think about this, you should always be testing, like, you cannot do this on your own. That doesn't mean you have to go out and pay anybody. It doesn't mean that you have to do anything like that. I'll give a real example. When I was a trial lawyer, my poor, poor, poor family and friends, they would hear me give opening statements and closing arguments so many times. And as I went further in my career, you know, they got used to it. And so they. I wouldn't. Even at the beginning, I'd be like, hey, can I. Can I tell you my opening statement? And they'd be like, yeah, of course. I did it so many times. And they. They would just like, run if I would ask them that. So I would find ways to just like, somehow, like, start saying it out of the blue. If I did that, they would. They would listen. And the. The reason it was valuable. And I'll tie it back to everyone when they're practicing their story and trying to get up the U shape. Different audiences and different people are going to respond differently. The more practice you do, the better you're going to get. I know that that is the most basic advice ever, but the road to mastery of this stuff is paved by 10,000 reps. And the more you do it, the quicker that that kind of improvement loop becomes where now I might need to only practice a story 3, 4, 5 times before it's really polished. Whereas when I started, I was practicing opening statements, closing arguments 30, 40, 50 times before I'd ever deliver them. So you just get better because you have all these foundational pieces where it's really easy to figure out the beats to hit.

Got it. Got it. So, along similar lines, you mentioned how everyone who's told a story impromptu actually has a story bank, vertical stories. And I know you also kind of coach founders and executives in telling stories, and I think you have something about where most tech people and founders need to have, like, two or three types of stories in their bank, right? There's like a sort of. Kind of past and sort of future. Maybe you can talk a little bit more about that.

So there's two core stories which you're hitting on in terms of kind of leadership, and that's the origin story and then the vision story. So origin story is how you got to where you are, what makes you special, why you care about what you're doing, the origin story.