Build Wealth Inside and Outside of Your Home Service Business with Jason Gabrieli

Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Phil Risher. And on today's episode, we're diving into how to build wealth inside and outside of your home service business with Jason Gabrielli. Thanks so much for joining us today, Jason.

Hey, it's my pleasure to be here, Phil. I know we had a little technical snafu, but I am here. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, no worries at all. So Jason and hfm, they came into my ecosystem because they specifically work with home service business owners to build wealth. And I was on their podcast, and I said, hey, why don't you come on mine? Because obviously we only work with home service businesses, and people that listen to this show are usually like one to $10 million. So it's a good fit. So, Jason, could you take a minute or two and just give us a quick bio of hfm, you, how you got here, what y' all do?

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So I am a co owner of HFM Investment Advisors with my business partner, Michael Pelosi, who I believe was. Was the host on the episode that you did. And so we always like to say, like, we like working with business owners because we're business owners. So I have 12 employees. I know what it's like to do the payroll thing, to have to have late nights, to have to figure to build from nothing. Like, we did it and we're doing it still. And it's always learning, progress. So we just naturally gravitated towards entrepreneurs when it came to who do we want to do our best work for? Because we get it. We've been there. We're learning, too, and we're still coming along. So we have kind of a kindred spirit there. Michael and I both started slinging life insurance. That's how we started in the industry. You know, he was a little, little, little before me, like, right around when I was born. But I did it for quite a few years, and I actually interned with Michael when I was in college. Came out, I always say, like, it was. It was May of 2009, which anybody who kind of has some recollection about the financial world, that was about the worst time maybe to ever graduate with a finance degree in the history of finance. The world was, like, imploding, so why not sell life insurance? And so that was kind of how I got my start.

I was actually interning at Merrill lynch at that time. Oh.

So, you know, it's a great time to be alive. And, yeah, it was. It was sporty out there for sure. All my buddies who Are like trying to go to Wall street and do all that stuff. I was like, oh, all of a sudden those jobs are gone.

Exactly.

So, yeah, so I, I went to join Michael with at Massmutual Life insurance company. He'd been selling for many years, very successful, worked with a lot of entrepreneurs. And what we started to realize together was over the next couple of years, life insurance is a great, it's an important part of your financial plan, but it's just a part. And a lot of times when you're in that industry and you're selling it, you find that they want you to sell it for sometimes the wrong reasons and for, you know, square peg fits in every hole and it's just not true. And so we started gravitating more and more towards full financial planning and wealth management that touches everything, taxes, estate investments, your business, all that stuff. And so once we kind of really got some steam on that, we left MassMutual, started HFM probably 10 years ago, almost 12 years ago now, as an independent firm. So we don't have a parent company, we don't sell anything for commissions. We work a lot like an attorney or an accountant. You know, we work for fees and we work just for our clients. And so as those years went on, we gravitated more and more towards blue collar and trades entrepreneurs. Because my dad was an electrician by trade. Like, we just, those are the people we liked working with, the regular people. We don't have big egos. I don't even wear, I'm not wearing a suit. Like, it's just different. And so, you know, we've really, the last couple years focused more and more in that area.

Yeah, okay, very cool. So you have a background in wealth management in general. And then it's like, hey, I gravitate towards these people, so let's work with them. That makes complete sense. So, got a couple questions for you as far as. So I used to work at a home service business. We scaled it from 3 million to 5 million, sold to private equity and the owner got a windfall of cash. And that is the dream outcome for most people. But I think there's this part of it which is you can still make money inside of your business and invest it outside of your business to make money. You don't have to fully pour it all back in. How do you coach people on this and what is the fine line with that? Because I think a lot of people is on their top of their mind, like, all my money's in this business. How do I build wealth outside as well. And what's, what do you, what do you coach people on for?

That's a great question, Phil. So it was almost like, you know, you're reading my mind here because our, you know, at hfm, our service model that works for these trades entrepreneurs is called Built Wealth. And we created something called the Built Wealth Ladder, which is basically, you know, every entrepreneur kind of fits somewhere from rung one to rung seven on this ladder, you know, and rung one is, everything's in the business. All the money goes back in the business. All my wealth is in the business. Everything's in the business. Right. And rung seven is I, I, I've sold or transitioned. I'm, I'm, I'm an old guy now. All my values are transitioning. My kids, I have this big, giant nest egg that I'm passing on. Right. And then there's all these rungs in between. And so that rung one, I always say just reaching rung one, where, where you even have profits is Herculean. Right. For any business owner. And so just to say that, you know, you have profits and things are working, but it's getting plowed back into the business. It's understandable. There's a great book, if I could drop a book recommendation.

Yeah.

Called Profit First.

I have Mike on the podcast, actually.

Yeah. He's the man. So Profit first is just a, It's a neat concept. I mean, there's a lot to it. You know, Definitely read the book. I believe he did a version for.

For home service businesses.

Yeah.

I'll put the, I'll put the link to the episode down below where we dive into home service businesses.

That's great.

But it's a game changer.

Yeah. Because it just, it just because. One of the core principles, as I'm sure you guys got into, is that, you know, just that idea that, oh, we'll have profit when, when we're bigger, profit when. We'll get there when we have volume, when we have. The reality is, you know, you got to have profit almost from day one. Right. Because you have to be building because that's what builds a healthy business. And so we're big proponents of that. Getting people from rung one to rung two on the built wealth ladder is all about are we getting profits that we can now pull from the business and still have the business being operable and healthy, but now we can pull them out of the business and start to build like a second engine of wealth? Because it's great to have your Business. And, and you said it. I mean, that's why we love working with entrepreneurs, because they're different than the typical financial advisor client who just saved a lot of money over a long period of time. Like their biggest asset is not their 401k, it's the business. And so I still gotta be that, but just for my sake of having a safety then almost and just having a plan B and making sure that you're diversifying, right? So you have this big giant. I say most business owners are very long their own company stock, which is great, right. But you got to have diversification. And whether that be, you know, traditional investments where you're literally, you know, investing in thousands of other stocks and like funds in your brokerage account or real estate or other businesses or whatever it is, just start to. Because anything can happen, you know, and you want to make sure that you're starting to build those other engines of wealth outside the business and getting into that rung to. On the ladder where. And sometimes we try to peg it to a number. So, you know, pulling from profit first, like, let's figure out on a quarterly basis or monthly basis or whatever it is, it's going to work for you. What percentage of the profit can we start to pull out? Is it 5%? Is it 10? Whatever it is, and let's put it in a brokerage account. Art, do you have a 401k that you're funding? Because you could also save a lot of money on taxes, depending on how you make that work. So if we can kind of match the building wealth outside the business with saving some money on taxes, that's a win all the way around. So, you know, we start to fill in those pieces by kind of forcing ourselves to start taking some money out once we have profit. Now it's about how can we get some out and where do we put it?

Okay, so the first rung is all your money's in your business and you're not pulling any money out. Second one, it sounds like, take distributions of profit of some sort and you're.

Starting to build that second, that second engine of wealth.

Okay, what's the next couple ones?

Ah, so the third level is now we're getting into, okay, I've built some stuff, so I have some, some assets outside the business. I have the business. Things are humming. But now I need to go back and say, are all the protections in order? Like, do I have the right legal entity structure? Do I have the right estate plan? Do I have the right insurance? Do I have the Right. Just in case. I don't want to start falling back down the rungs if something bad happens. And that's where you start to build a little moat or you start to build a good. You know, we always say, let's make sure all your footings are in place on your foundation. Right.

Yeah.

Because you probably have a lot of. A lot of nice things built up. But let's make sure we have a protection system around it.

What are some of those protection assistance, like a will or something? Or is there other stuff that's.

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that. And I stole this from a consultant friend of ours who's an awesome guy. Uh, you got, you know, Jim, I think, Bradley. Yeah. So one of the things Jim does, which I think is brilliant, is he has his clients, when they first start working with him, write a letter to your spouse of what would have to happen if you died tomorrow for the business. Keep it going. It's like, I just went on a trip.

I just went on a trip a couple months ago with my brothers, and they're younger than me, and my wife's like, what's going to. Like, I went to Belgium, so I was like, way across out of here, and she's like, what should I do? And I literally recorded a loom video for her of like, if I die.

Hi.

Go here, do this. Like.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, for somebody that. That, that works a W2 job.

Yeah.

And you know, okay. Get life insurance. Get your will in place. Done. Yeah. For somebody who has a business and that is a huge amount of their net worth is that that business continues to run, then. Yeah, you have to will. But okay, so if the business says the business goes to my wife, but the wife, but the business is worthless because, you know, it went out of business the first month you were gone.

Kindergarten teacher. Yeah.

Yeah. So I would say a big part of that is. Is having some transition plan, even if it's not what you're actually going to do.

Yeah.

Just in case, like, if something happens to you, who's writing checks to payroll, like, who's. Who's doing any of that stuff, like have something in place. It's kind of that first step of having. Starting to think about what I'm going to do with this business eventually anyway, is what if I was not here then. Then what would I do? It would have to happen fast. Right. And so putting that in place, that. That just in case. Oh, shit plan, you know, to make sure that the business continues to have value and that it can be sold so that your spouse or heirs or survivors, you know, can capitalize on what it was worth.

Yeah. You know, so there's some legal things, but then also just some practical things that's like, absolutely, have a plan.

Well, and there's so the legal sides. It's one, if something happens to you, but it's also just when you're building and you're building and you're. And you're buying this property and you're buying this business, your legal structure of your entities starts to get to become a mess. And from a tax perspective and a protection perspective, to get sued, you. You want to start to clean that up if you, if you start to get a little messy and just unintentional. Yeah, we see a lot of people starting to do that work at that wrong three where like, let's get some things in order, you know, on the legal side, because we have built, you know, a decent.

Yeah.

A decent amount of things up and it's a mouth getting it in line. So that's huge. And then insurance, like I said, you know, we don't sell insurance anymore, but we consult a lot of insurance. We want to make sure people have the right ones in place. Not just life insurance and disability insurance can't work or you die. But also somebody sues you or somebody gets hurt or keeping your property separate or whatever it is, making sure that you're protected. So it kind of. It's all those pieces. Yeah.

Okay, cool. Four, five, six, what we got?

Ah, so before we get into, okay, let's start thinking about what is the plan for this business and is it and which, you know, the old school, A lot of the old school was I'm just going to work till I drop dead and. And then whatever. But we see a change now. More people think, I'm going to sell it. I'm going to sell it to PE or I'm going to sell it to a strategic, which is like a competitor or a larger company. Right. Or what we also see a lot of is I'm going to transition it internally. You know, I have a team in place and they're going to want to take it over and I'm going to sell it to them. Where I have family, we see that a lot, especially in home services and trades. My son's coming in the business, my son in law, my nephew, whatever. And so we start to think about what's the intention and then back into how do we make that a reality and a plan for the next 2, 3, 4, 5, whatever the timeline is. And then start to think about, okay, from a tax perspective, how do we make sure we're setting ourselves up properly to pay no more than we absolutely have to, rather than, hey, I sold the business. I have this giant check. Okay, well, then it's too late to do a lot of things.

Yeah.

So there's that. And just making sure that they were planning for that type of thing. Because we know, like I always say, your business is going to transition eventually. You're going to sell it, you're going to transition it to someone, or you're going to die. Like, one of those things is going to happen. And so you got to be ready.

Got to have a plan.

That's what wrong four is what's next for the business. What's the plan?

Yeah, I'm a big Dave Ramsey guy, and he talks a lot about planning for transition. And like, 10 years, 20 years in advance of, like, what is. It doesn't have to mean that it goes that way, but at least have a plan for what that's like. Because from a tax perspective, there's so much that goes into these assets transitioning that you could be a lot more strategic with.

I've seen people pay a lot more taxes than they needed to because they just didn't do the planning ahead of time. Yeah. And a big thing I'll say, you know, with rung for just to kind of, kind of bring that in a loop is, you know, a lot of it is if the goal is to sell the business, then let's think about how we can proact. Because what you think adds value may not. And, you know, people say, I want to go, I want to hire a cfo and I want to acquire this building that I To put slow down. Like, if your goal is to sell in three years, there are plenty of experts, which is not us. We have a great network of people who are seller reps and consultants that will help you. Okay. If the goal is to sell in three years, here's the things you should be doing to max value, because that is the most important thing. Everything else, you know. But I also just have found that, you know, we've had some of those consultants on our podcast, and we've always come to the same conclusion, which is, turns out that a business that looks really attractive to acquirers because you did all the right things to max value is also just a really good business to have. So even if you decide not to sell it, it's probably very profitable. It's probably very, you know, has you built out of it a little bit. All that good stuff makes it a good business for you.

Yeah. I had John Warlow on the podcast Built to Sell, and the company I worked at was 3 million, and we took him to 5 million. Then he sold a private equity, like what I was telling you. And a lot of what we do with businesses now is helping them prepare for the exit. So that way they can talk to the strategic partner that's going to come in and explain what they've done. Because just like on your side of it, you don't want it to be, I get to the finish line and then it's a mess. You want it to be tight, so that way you get max value for the stuff.

That's a good point. I've heard that. But it is. It's a story. You have a story of you're selling your business. Literally. Like, yeah, a sale. So you have to sell your story of what you did and why it's better than the next roofing company or the next whatever.

I literally went to lunch with the private equity guy and the owner. It's me, the owner, and the private equity guy. And the private equity guy says, how do you get new customers? How do you convert them into sales? How do you retarget your past customers? And I'm sitting there and I'm like, they need a story for all of these things. Not just like, oh, yeah, we just do some. You know, they need a system. And yeah, yeah, keep it tight.

So you want them to say, yeah, oh, that's good. That's what we want to see. Check mark, check mark, check mark, max value. Right?

Exactly. I love it. All right, so that makes complete sense. Fifth five.

So five is, hey, we transitioned or we sold or we. Whatever. Now we have to figure out how am I going to live on this money or what's next step. You know, there's a lot of. I mean, I don't know what the numbers are. I'll make one up. Feels like 3/4 of the time they're getting into some other business or they're buying another business or they're doing. It's not. They're not just buying. Right. So you know what, what's the plan?

We had three companies, like, right. When I started seven years ago, I had three companies that I exited, like year, year, each year that I went with these guys and exited every single time back into another business, back into. Into it. They can't sit still. I mean, I'm talking like eight figures of, of money to them. And it doesn't matter.

It's. They can't because it's not the money.

It's not the money.

It literally becomes not about the money. It's just about. If you're a builder, you're a builder, right? You like building these things and, and you like that piece of it. And so it's like you're not going to have a hobby playing, you know, shuffleboard at the. Right, you're gonna keep building hobby. So I feel like that is a big conversation that we have at, at Rung five is like we call it the vision build. We do a big whiteboarding exercise and we start what's, what's the vision for this? So you're going to, you're going to get this big check. What your kids are involved, like, what do you want to do for them? If anything, your heirs or your spouse or your family members or like what you have charitable, maybe some charity. Like, let's put it all on there. And you want to have more businesses or you want to buy? Like, yeah, let's just figure out what the overall vision is and then we take down into like the technical. Okay, well, this is how we, let's bring a lawyer in and figure out how we're going to structure a trust or figure out, you know, how we're going to allocate to some type of investment. Like, then we worry about the technical, but let's just start big picture. Like, what do you want to do with this big check? Like, what is it in your mind? And then we figure out the blocking tackling.

Okay. I love it. That's very good. Because I mean from your side of things, that's more of like a coaching visionary strategic partner, not just like a financial wealth manager or something like that. Which is nice to have someone like that in your corner that can see the big picture and help you build that. Which is pretty unique, I would say it sounds like.

Yeah, I'll be honest. The way we came to that really was we, we've sat in a lot of conversations with really high level, super smart attorneys and tax consultants and, you know, investment fund providers and all that kind of stuff. And they know the technical. Right. They're really sharp with what gets lost is like what they'll start. They'll start right out the gate with strategy. Hey, this is an idea we have and we're going to build this. And we're like, we don't even, we need to know what, what's, what do they want? What is the. Let's start with that. And so we saw a little opportunity there, which seems simple, but in the, in the, the advising space, it tends to get so down into strategy and tactics so quick because to us that's the stuff that's fun. But we've learned that, you know, if you could just help people figure out what they want to do and really align it with their values and their, their what makes them, you know, their family and their, themselves. And then you bring in the technical side. That's, that's a nice little spot we like to live in.

Yeah, I like it. All right, number six.

So number six, this is where we started getting into the, you know, riding off into the sunset phase. So this is, this is eventually when you are done, if you're done, you know, what is it like to live off this money? And how do we structure your income and your lifestyle between the investment account and the real estate that you have and maybe the profit pulling off of other companies you've invested? How do we coordinate all that into a lifestyle for you that's going to be comfortable and what you want and guide you in future decision making, like what you want to do with that, with helping your kids out or your grandkids or your whatever. And then, you know, Rung 7 is where we really get a little step deeper and say, okay, if you have this huge nest egg that is eventually going to pass on, we need to make sure that. I'm assuming I should say people want to make, because I was just having this conversation the other day. It's one thing to pass on. Making money and keeping money are two different skills. And you know, if you're a great maker of the money, what happens by usually the third generation, not great keepers of the money. And it's time and time again, the Vanderbilts are like the biggest example at the time. I think he would have been worth like $300 billion. If you, if you create for inflation, which, you know, and still after I think four generations, it was basically gone. So you just, it's. Unless you instill that next those generations with the governance of like passing along your values and what is this money to be used for and what like all those pieces, you know, you can end up with next generation family members that are very far from what, what you were and what you're. So we try to start getting that stuff like legacy, legacy building. How do we pass along the values and the, and the work ethic and all that kind of stuff.

I read a really good book on this called Die with Zero.

I love Bill Perkins.

Yeah, Bill Perkins.

Okay.

Yeah. So good. And it's not like die with zero dollars.

Right.

It's like allocate everything accordingly. So you have a plan and you're living life to the fullest. It's so good.

I love. I love the. It's funny you say that, though, because, you know, we have a contingent of our clientele that are, you know, more typical retirees, I would say.

Yeah.

You know, it did work at a job, but Verizon or Comcast or wherever saved a bunch of money in their 401k, and now they're living off it. Right.

Yeah.

And getting people to flip from being savers and being fiscally responsible with their money. Right. Like. Like doing the right things to all of a sudden now spending it.

Yeah.

It's almost harder to get people to spend their money than it is anything else because they've worked so hard to build it. You know, if it's a business, you've worked so hard to build your. Your business and your baby, and then you sold it and you got this big pot of money. Now it's like, if you're not going to go do something else, if this is, you know, you're done now and you're going to ride off into the sunset, like now turning that into, okay, now I have to live off this thing. And I really do want to make sure I'm enjoying my life and not just feeling like I have to pinch every penny to save it forever.

Yeah, for sure. When I was talking with Michael, we kind of went through some of these buckets that we look at, and it lines up perfectly. So, like, we see the 1 to 3 million dollars home service business. We call it the swamp. Because in the swamp, you're basically like running around doing all this stuff yourself. You're the number one salesperson. You're trying to build systems in your business. And for. From what I'm seeing from your ladder, it's like 1, 2, and 3 kind of. You fit into that bucket of the swamp where it's like all your money is going to be in your business. You're constantly trying to get it in. You might get some profit that's coming out and you're trying to get there, but you haven't got there. Then the next one is 3 to 5 million, which. That's when you really start to open up. There's more profitability. You start to see this is like, what's the next steps? How am I going to protect this asset that I really have and this revenue and then 5 to 10 million, is that that legacy piece which is like, okay, I'm making, you know, a million dollars a year, $2 million a year. What's the game plan for that? And then how am I going to maybe exit at some point? And this is how we operate with businesses, too. So it lines up exactly with that.

Yeah. And it's. I don't know how often you've seen this, but occasionally we'll get the situation where people think that, you know, that they're, they're going to sell, like, that's. I'm going to sell the business, you know, and they progress through the 1 to 3 to the 3 to 5. Now they're in 5, 10. And business is running itself. They have a system in place. They have good, exact good leadership team in place. And yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're guiding and they're mentoring, but they're also maybe doing the things that they like the best. You know, what we call unique ability. So that they're in their unique ability most of the time. They're doing the stuff that fills their cup. They're not dealing with any of the BS. And it's like, and you're making $2 million a year. It's like, and sometimes we'll challenge. I'll say, so you sell this thing. Yeah. Then what? And they're like, I'm gonna build another business. I'm like, you got a pretty good, Pretty good where you're at right now, right? It's like, actually, it is pretty awesome. My kids are, whatever, 10 and like, I have a lot of time to do whatever I need to do with them. It's like, do you sure you want to. Occasionally they'll go, you know what? I don't think I do. They'll just, they'll wait, you know, and maybe they'll. And I say, okay, we'll get a bigger multiple when you're 20 million or whatever. And it's like, so, you know, it's not always what you think it is. But again, building a good business that is valuable to sell is also potentially a good business to keep. So there's always that yin and yang.

Yeah. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. So let's say someone's an $8 million business. They're making 1.52 million EBITDA profit when they sell their business for $8 million. If they go off this 4% rule, they're going to be making like, you know, whatever, 200, $400,000 if they sell it for like $10 million or, you know.

Right, yeah, Yep.

So basically they're making 2 million and then they have to take their lifestyle all the way down to 200,000 or whatever that is. How do you coach people through this or walk them through that exercise? Like, thinking about that.

That'S. That's a big part of what happens in that rung. Four, when we're preparing for. What is the plan for this business? A lot of it is, how much would you have to get for this business to continue lifestyle? And that, okay, it's a big eye opener. It's like, oh, well, let's. Let's add back the truck that the business pays for and your wife's car and your, you know, and it's like. And it's like, oh, yeah, well, I found myself a salary of $400,000, but I really need six or whatever it is. And it's like, okay, to your point, let's work backwards and let's figure out how much we have to sell for. And a lot of times, to your point, it ends up being a much bigger number than they could feasibly get for the business at this point. And so, honestly, it is. It's another case for building a second engine of wealth. Right. Because the reality is you might have a really big lifestyle that wouldn't be supported by just selling your business. And at the end of the day, it just gives you flexibility. I've told people this since I was an advisor selling term life insurance to my friends when I was 22. Right. If you have money, you have options. If you have no money, you have no options. So if everything is in the business and all the hope of your financial future is in the business forever, you're really linked to whatever you can get for that business at whatever time. And so you really limit your options and your flexibility. Whereas if you have these second, third, fourth generators of wealth, engines of wealth, maybe some real estate, investment accounts, retirement account, all the stuff that we build outside. It's like, yeah, obviously you want to sell the business. It's still probably your biggest asset. But you have other stuff there. There's a lot besides just that, you know.

Yeah. One other question on this. So let's say someone's like one to three million dollars and they have profit that they're generating. But how would you. What would. How would you work with them to figure out how much to invest back into the business and take out? Because this one, I think a lot of people get stuck in and maybe you have some way that you work with people on this.

Yeah, it's a hard one, honestly, but I think that one comes back to what their vision is for the business. Right. Because if the, if the vision for the business is going back to what we said before, I want to sell this thing in three years. It's like, okay, well, what we're going to do with a lot of this money is we're going to go talk to one of these consultants that like you guys. We say, okay, what would max our value? Like, where would putting this money max our value? And then we figure out, well, by how much? And then we compare that to what putting money elsewhere would do and grow. We just say, okay, what's going to be worth more than three years? And then we, we try to start that balance off that way. Whereas if it's transition it to, you know, my kids or then guess what, Building that second engine of wealth is critical because transitioning to kids can mean a lot of things. Some people say, I'm just going to give it to them, or, you know, it might take a little while, but I'll transition, I'll be gone. Some say I'm going to sell to them, but it's going to be for a nominal rate or whatever. Yes, but that means you got to have a retirement nest egg that is going to take care of you. And so, yeah, in that case, we got to put a lot more into that outside account and that outside then into the business. And so I think it depends a lot on what their objective is for the business and what the timeline looks like.

Yeah, that's good. What's the goal and then how long, what's your timeline look like? Because then you can make the best decision for whatever that looks like. Yeah, it's hard. I asked Mike when he was on, like, my business is doing 20% profit, so I can get 10% returns in an index fund and build enterprise value in my business. Like, how do I balance that? If I give the money to my business, it's get 20% back and enterprise value. And he didn't really know. He says similar thing like, you know, it just depends on your situation. Very cool. So is there any specific place on this ladder that most people get stuck for home service businesses or something that's like, this is where most people fall flat?

Yeah, I would say it is. It is getting from rung one to rung two. It is going from everything being the business and it being all wrapped up. Your net worth being comprised of the business and all the Money kind of going back in besides what you pull out to live on and then transitioning to. I'm going to consciously start building wealth outside the business because it also requires you to, like, I'm going to take. I'm going to step outside the business for a second.

Yeah.

Which I get. It's hard. I mean, again, we're business owners too, so, like. Yeah, the business is always on the brain. It's, it's always, it's such. It's not just a big part of your financial life. It's a big part of your life. It's a big part of your thought process. It's there always.

Yeah.

So it's to say, okay, I'm now going to step back and, and, and figure out how else I can build wealth or protect or do all these other things that don't see. That's the other piece of it, I think. Have you ever heard the term urgent versus important? All the business stuff, the fires that you're putting out, that's all urgent stuff. But the important stuff is what am I doing with my overall life with my family? What's the point of all this? That is way harder. Oh, I'm going to take Friday afternoon and I'm going to think about the future. Nobody's ever. Yeah, like, it's, it's. And so that, that's really hard. And so honestly, just our meetings with our clients are an opportunity that kind of forces them to take like two hours a couple times a year to just think about the future and to think about. Let's come outside the business. Let's come outside the ever. Like what. Let's re. Engage with the overall objective of all this stuff. I think that's the hardest thing to do.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, Jason, thanks so much, man. I appreciate you. I love the ladder that walks people through these steps. Really good stuff. Where should people go to learn more about hfm? You. How should they get in touch?

Well, two things. I'm going to say that if you're okay with it, I'll shoot you a link to add in the show notes. Or they can download our little white paper on the ladder. They can learn about it, find out where they're at, and give them a little bit of taste of what they could be doing in each room to help them get to the next one. So we'll put that in show notes, it sounds like. And then our website, hfmadvisors.com feel free to put that in the show notes. You know, all our stuff's there. You know we have a podcast of our own and some resources blog. We have a newsletter that we send out. I believe it's weekly now, but it is talking specifically to this group and specifically about how to go up the ladder, what to do at each rung that you might be at.

Love it. All right, man. Thanks so much for the conversation. Look forward to continuing.

Thanks for having me, Phil.

See you.