From Reputation Management to Experience Management - The Big Shift in Home Service

Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Phil Risher, and on today's episode, we're talking about how to transform from reputation management to experience management with Pierce Burkhold, CEO of Real Work Labs. Thanks so much for joining us today again, Pierce, coming back on the show. Yeah, thanks, brother.

Appreciate it. It's been a few years. Excited to talk again. Yeah.

So if people that didn't watch the last episode are not familiar with Real Work Labs, can you give us a quick 1-2 minute, uh, overview of what Real Work Labs is And then maybe some new things that y'all have coming on the horizon that we're going to talk about today.

Yeah, absolutely. So Real Work Labs is the kind of website-adjacent platform. We started off by really going into the market on how can we solve homeowners' problems that then in turn solve home business owners' problems. So that first approach of like, okay, what are homeowners thinking and feeling? We looked at online reviews. And said, okay, 1,000 reviews, 5 companies, how do I— how can I tell the difference? Lots of fake reviews. So we invented the idea of mapping where reviews come from, adding the videos, the content, the location, and really connecting home service brands with their reputation and homeowners on a neighborhood level because we wanted homeowners to make more confident decisions on the provider that they picked. And when you solve their problems, you know, your problems get solved. So we've always had a really big standout on going on websites, showing Google and homeowners and getting credit for your work and reviews where they happen and unpacking your reputation and years of work at that local level. And again, solving the homeowner's issues. And recently with our XM rollout, you know, we've been very innovative and strategic on how not just displaying and monetizing your reputation to get found, get called, win jobs, Now it's after that job as well. So being able to engage with homeowners at a much, much deeper level and unlocking insights, I mean, kind of eye-popping numbers as far as getting more reviews and just how to become a better business. So Realwork is both the, you know, display of reputation and then also how to home service businesses. That's all we work with, how to get reviews. And actually the trick to it is by not trying to get the review upfront. Mm.

Okay. We're gonna unpack that. So I know we talked a little bit pre-show. You were telling me a little bit about this, but I do batch recordings and actually like right before this I recorded with this woman named Carrie who built a $10 million HVAC and electrical business. And I asked her some of the secret sauce things and she said, next day happy calls. And so, yeah. So From what I understand from the XM piece, is that basically taking these happy calls and doing AI, using AI for happy calls?

Yes, 100%. So, you know, what we found when I was first experimenting with this, and this has been my kind of baby for the last year and a half, but, you know, I really found that there's 3 kinds of businesses, um, and there's kind of 2 bad options, right? But every business, of course, and home service provider wants to do quality work. But stuff can happen. You're not with your staff, they can leave a mess. I've actually seen all sorts of stuff. There was a guy who got caught peeing on the house from a Ring camera. So you never know what's happening.

We had this in my home service business. The guy was peeing in the stairwell of the apartment, and then the, the, the people called us because they had a camera, and we're like, bro, what are you doing?

Yeah, exactly right. So you never know, and it's just so much anxiety around that. So basically, for home service providers, like, your options to do those happy calls very aspirational, you have one of two kind of difficult choices, right? You hire American-speaking people, right, to make those calls, and they're expensive. They could be booking jobs on the calendar. They could be doing lots of stuff, and those happy calls are great, but are you catching all of them? What's the system you have? Are you forcing them to make those calls, and are you paying them for those reviews, right? So it's expensive, and they could be doing other stuff. And then on the flip side, you know, the option before AI was send it out to the Philippines, use a call service. I don't know about everybody else here, but when I can barely understand the person calling, I'm not really feeling the love. When I experience that, it feels a little bit cheap. It's almost better not to do it. So it's like really expensive or not expensive, but not really sending the right message, I think. And then there's just not doing it at all, right? So AI has presented the ability to do those happy calls, but you really, really have to do it the right way. Almost every business owner I talk to, has a lot of anxiety and says, I value my communication, our personal touch. And it is extraordinarily easy, just like in those other two scenarios, to upset a customer with an AI phone call. If you do not do it right with the right expectations in the right way, you could definitely shoot yourself in the foot trying to go it alone. And that's basically the evolutionary tree branch that Realwork has cracked by being able to engage generally 60 to 70% of a customer population in a very healthy, in-depth manner, unlocking reviews, unlocking feedback, what we call a neighborhood promoter score, and actually giving text and email alerts to business owners before a bad review starts. So transferring those people in and handling those upset situations right on the spot.

I love it. So I started my career at Enterprise Rent-A-Car in their management training program, and I went through that entire program. I was one of the top branch managers, and I don't know if you know this, Pierce, but they call a segment of their customers and build a net promoter score, and they call it ESQI, Enterprise Service Quality Index, and then they rank every single person off of that score. Yeah. You know about this?

Yeah. Oh, I'm very familiar with NPS. Yeah. We actually adapted net promoter score to neighborhood promoter score in the same fashion. Yeah.

I love it.

Yeah.

So like, like what you're saying is when I went to the home service business, I'm like, why is no one doing this? Why are we not calling these people and making sure that we're all good? And like, no one is even checking anything and there's no scores for anything.

Yeah.

And it's just like mind-boggling. Enterprise has been doing this for years, $27 billion family business, and we can't get it in the ground level. So I love that. I love that you brought up about shooting yourself in the foot with AI. How do you overcome that objection from a business owner?

Um, so I think the important thing is that one, ask for proof. Okay, so we have tons and tons and tons of calls that we play for people, of older people engaging with it. We have a really wide swath across every industry of homeowners engaging with it and giving responses and having the proof, right? You know, just like homeowners are looking at a home service company and they're going to be looking at reviews and looking for proof and for evidence because of digital distrust, they look to verify. And that's why they look to your reviews. That's why mapping reviews to begin with is so important and adding that confidence. But at the same time, you know, I would say before ever choosing an AI provider, definitely look for those happy calls. That's a big portion of it, being able to showcase it. But that's just cherry picking. You should also look for the reputation of the company itself saying like, hey, we're going to follow up on what we do. And here's our own reviews, right, as far as something to look towards. But then also, I think it's philosophically what it comes down to is understanding that AI can be— like, when you call into Delta and they're like, we're experiencing higher than normal call times. And you're like, yeah, really? All the time? You're always experiencing more? That's crazy. OK, I'll listen to your stupid system in 1 through 10. Like, that's annoying. That doesn't need to be AI. That's just a call tree, right? And that's just wasting my time. And like, we all know that it's like programmed into Delta or any major corporation. So in general, when people think about AI, they think— I think of two things. One is inauthentic, and number two is a barrier. So the main thing in doing outreach that we benefit from is that the customer's not trying to reach the business owner and can't reach them. They're being told ahead of time a digital assistant will be calling. And then they're willingly picking up the phone and getting outreach that they may have not otherwise had. And so that's something that we really stress is this isn't like a lot of those AI CSRs that Service Titans, Marketplace, Jobber, and others have, which, you know, I've heard varying results are. I think some work, some don't. But whether it's a call tree or AI, you know, you have to have a lot of evidence. And that's just digital distrust across the board. We overcome, home service businesses have to overcome. But then it's also enhancing communication because the question is, are you calling all your homeowners, right? And if you're not doing those happy calls, then you should be. And if you are doing it, do you really think you're getting an honest answer? Like, let me put it to you this way, Phil. If you— when's the last time you went to a restaurant and the food was mediocre and the manager comes by and asks you and says, hey guys, how's the food doing today? And you're like, oh yeah, it's good. Yeah, but in the back of your mind, you're like, I'm not coming back.

Yeah.

Why didn't you tell them the truth? I mean, why? Have you ever done that?

Oh yeah, of course.

Right. So why didn't— why weren't you like, hey, yeah, I mean, it's okay. I probably— why didn't— why weren't you honest?

You don't want to let the guy down. You're looking at him, go to his— the guy right there and tell him, you— this table's upset with you. And it's like this whole weird thing. It's like, I just want to get out of here with my, you know, eat my stuff.

Exactly. Wasn't great, whatever. I don't hate you guys. I'm not coming back. That's the same thing that happens. You want to know what people are brutally honest with? Robot, right? So that's the other thing is getting that authentic content from people because there's no emotional shared burden of being honest. And that's actually intentionally why we did a specific test. Another way that you can shoot yourself in the foot is trying to use too realistic of a voice. So we've actually found that by being upfront that it's a digital assistant and then also by using an intentionally more robotic voice, it's far more effective than the uncanny valley when the voice is too authentic sounding or too real sounding. So that was a very interesting takeaway we had where the success rates plummeted as we used more advanced voice rendering.

Yeah, very interesting. I think also people could probably appreciate that, that it's like, OK, this thing's probably taking this information and actually going to do something with it than just Sally, who's just making her rounds and just going to move on to the next thing.

Yeah, and who wants to hurt Sally's opinions? Yeah. Sally's feelings and do that. So, you know, I think overall, what I would encourage a home service business to do is absolutely look at, you know, AI solutions. And what's really dizzying is the whole AI wrapper. And it's too easy for an agency, a company, anybody to spin up an AI something, right? Yeah.

Go high level and they say they're AI experts.

There you go. Right. So it's like, I don't know how many new AI go-to-market leaders, AI engineers, AI, whatever I've seen come out. And ultimately what it comes down to is just good, you know, common sense. And I think that, you know, where in my opinion, how to not shoot yourself in the foot, I think the answer was really figured out a long time ago. It's called the doorman fallacy. And I think the answer was, was where around all of this was determined 50 years ago in the 1970s. Have you ever heard of the doorman fallacy?

You mentioned it to me when we talked.

Yeah.

Pre-recording. But yeah, say it because I like to Yeah, so it's funny.

So when they invented the automatic door in, I guess it was the '70s, uh, those big New York high-rises, right? The land— the landlords were like, oh, automatic doors, okay, well, we can save money. Because you want to know what they did? They're like, replace the doorman. We got automatic doors, we don't need doormen anymore. So you're a landlord, owner of a, you know, whatever building in New York, and so you think that's a cost savings, and you've got this 1,000-foot view, and you're like, all right, we'll fire the doorman. And what happened very soon thereafter was a lot of bad stuff. There were vagrants that were sleeping in front, broken windows, vacancies went up, and you can Google this and look it up. And the doorman fallacy was basically an instruction manual on sacrificing efficacy for efficiency. And what they didn't know, what the landlords didn't realize, was that these doormen did a lot more than open the door. They maintained the relationship, they kept the vagrants from sleeping out front, they called taxis, right? They did a lot of things that boosted the experience.

Yes.

And the brand at that front door level with the building and did a lot more than just open and close that door. And so you wound up with automatic door openers with doormen. And I think that's where, in my opinion, a lot of AI companies can go wrong. Is that they're looking to replace the doorman. And real work is in no way ever trying to replace the doorman. That's why for us, you know, when we have these like happy calls— and bear in mind, Phil, like half are happy, half are not. Yeah, half are not happy. So what do you do with those? Okay. And it's— that's where you bring in those CSRs. So let them focus on booking work. Let them focus on revenue-producing things. Let them focus where it matters. We bring them in when they're needed, when someone's upset, when they give a low score, when they've left a message, right? So that's why we have this basically partnership with the front desk team so that they don't have to listen to the phone ring. They don't have to wait. The honesty is out there. The score comes back, the transfer comes in, whatever. And then it's bringing in, it's bringing in the CSR, right, for when they're most needed. So, you know, as the saying goes, you automate the predictable and humanize the exceptional. And that's exactly what our mantra is. And that's why it's also been so incredibly successful for us in the last few months. So you'll see Realwork's name probably a lot, lot more in the next years to come. Yeah, man.

I love that. I do want to ask you at the top, you mentioned getting reviews, getting more reviews without asking or without asking or something.

Yeah.

What was that?

So again, and our entire design and product philosophy is you get what you want by helping others get what they want. Right? Like you, for instance, like you only have followers on this show if you provide good, insightful content.

Of course.

If they feel educated, entertained, whatever, then you benefit from more followers. And that's always the case. And it's easy to lose sight of that because it's easy to hire a reputation management company and say, like, I want more reviews.

Yeah.

No one really cares what you want, right? Homeowners care about their house and they care about themselves. I can't go into a sales conversation with, you know, a home service company and be like, well, I want money. They're like, well, I don't care what you want. I care about my business. So at the end of the day, when we solve the homeowner problem first, that's when the home service business wins. And so with these happy calls, reputation management softwares like the big ones, BirdEye, Podium, et cetera, they're called reputation management because first and foremost, a link comes over and it's like, hey, I'm Todd, I'd love working with you, please leave me a review. And that's the gimme gimme, right? That's, I want a review. The banner that you want to operate from and how we do it is we're not asking for a review. When we call people, the first question is, hey, you know, we just worked on your house and did an install yesterday. Does that ring a bell? And then number 2, it's, how are things going? Is everything going okay? Do we need to come back out? And that's what you need to bifurcate on is, was the job done right and putting the customer first and telegraphing that? And that's the first thing that we want to know. So really these calls, and that's where experience management is really, really enabled here at this for Happy Calls. Cuz I mean, of course you could do it with the Philippines people, the American people, you know, I don't think either is the best, but It's a customer-centric approach, right? And so operating under that banner, which we do, and identifying that the job was done right and people are happy, you're putting them first. Then after they tell you like, no, you know, and the stuff I've seen, I've told you, right? Someone peeing on the house, whatever. But there's all sorts of things that can happen. And then it's transfer them in, right? Take that message. Hey, I'm here for you. I'm going to fix this right now. What would you like to do? But if they are happy, then it's like, okay, I love to hear that. Glad the team took care of business. Let me ask 1 through 10 then, how did we do? And that's just such an easy segue, right? This is a natural conversation. They give you the feedback. Okay, let me ask, you know, why, why an 8? Why a 9? Why a 10? Why a 5? Right? What is it? And that's actually where we get really critical feedback for the business, as I'm sure you were familiar with NPS and ESQI. You start to get— we call it pulse, but we— you start to get a pulse on your customers telling you your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats to the business. So you could hire a new guy and he's not cleaning his feet before he walks in or out. He leaves a mess. You would never know that, right? People just, just like the, the waiter, you don't tell them the food's bad. They just don't come back. You may never hear about it. So that's really where at a business level, we can also use AI to summarize for the business, hey, people don't like your pricing, or your staff keeps leaving a mess. And that's at the business level. Here's the roadmap you need to follow to improve, because 5-star reviews don't just happen. 5-star reviews come from doing quality work.

Exactly.

Right? So you have that feedback loop to improve. But then also at the technician level, what is Bob good at? What is Greg good at? They're my plumbers. They're good at the job, but how's their customer service? So you also see this natural float of review rates going up over time because when you actually have the credible itinerary from your customers on how specific techs and the business can improve, you can implement. So you see those NPS scores gradually go up because you give the right coaching, you solve 1-stars before they happen. And, you know, we can build the best mousetrap because at the end of this, you know, we go for that review. We text on the spot and try to get it or follow up. But again, even, you know, the, the unsavory, the, the, the 5s out of 10, the 1 out of 10s, those are some of the most instructive moments for the business and the team. And when you apply that outside of how good or technological or savvy or psychological something can be to, to get people into that funnel to leave you a review, You still have to be doing that good work and your good work is gonna increase and the perception will increase when you get that feedback. And you know how critical that is.

Yeah. So, so what I'm hearing from you is like, it's hard to get 5-star review with 3-star service, but you don't know all the 3-star service experiences are actually happening. So if you were to like get 5-star service, then you would get more 5-star reviews. But you don't have that feedback loop in your business right now and you're just wondering why you're not getting enough 5-star reviews.

Yeah. And you would assume and say like, you know, and your text, right? If they give you an explanation, going to be a little bit biased, right? They're going to give their perspective. And sometimes, you know, you don't, you don't want to take every homeowner's— some owners are just crazy. You don't want to take them at their word. But yeah, so that's, that's exactly the point. And I think, you know, even Google's most recent update, right? Like they do not want to see They don't want to see text names. They don't want to see people's names in reviews. Do you see that?

No, I didn't. Can you tell me about it?

Oh yeah. Yeah. So Google's most recent update to Google Business Profiles, they have specifically told businesses to not encourage staff to get their names in reviews.

Wow. Why would they say that?

Manipulating reviews. They do not want to see the text. You can look, you can look that up. They do not want to see manipulated content in terms of keywords. They don't want to see it in terms of names. They prohibit paying your staff to generate reviews. So this actually is a big game changer for review generation because with AI, and this is the thing, right? AI and authenticity are, they're separate polar, they're dipolar, right, from one another, whatever the term is. But So they, like Google, more and more and more, right, with, with, with AI needs to see unmanipulated reviews and unmanipulated content. And so, you know, that's where getting your reviews with your staff mentioned by name, like a lot of people do it the old-fashioned way. Oh yeah. Okay guys, get your name in that review and then I'll pay you $50 or give you whatever. Yeah, you shouldn't do that. And you really, really shouldn't. And Google has specifically made that change about a month ago. So you need to have better systems to assign those reviews back to the technician that drove them without having that name in there. So if you're doing it the old-fashioned way and paying on that, definitely need to reconsider it. If you don't believe me, just go look up Google Business Profile and type in staff names and you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. Wow.

Very, very crazy. So from what it sounds like, that NPS score could be all the way pulled back to a specific job in tech that was on that job. So then you would have a— NPS per technician.

Yep, exactly. Yep. So your technicians, how are they scoring? What are their specific qualitative gaps to improve, right? So what are they doing well at? What do they need to improve at? And then the call recordings that you can share, right? Where they get celebrated or where they had a miss. So this can help in some HR functions as well. I think if you're having tough conversations or working people out, So having those call recordings is definitely crucial. But then also, yeah, those NPSs on a technician level. And like I said, we, I think one of the best things, and again, this is all, this is all enabled because of AI, which, you know, I think a lot of companies are incorporating it. So, you know, it's easier to voice dictate or you don't have to do as much input, but I think one of the coolest things to automate is the text messages that we send business owners now. On the spot when they have a problem. So it's like, boom, hey, this customer complained because they're waiting for a quote, because they're waiting for— I have one right here. Can Jose call me back? I have one or two more questions for him. Right? So that is going to go to the owner directly. Desire to speak with a team member because She had some questions on the quote, right? So even jobs that haven't been completed yet, I mean, there's just so much. And so alerting people that a low score came in and handling it prevents a 1-star, the transfers, et cetera. So I think there's just a lot of anxiety. I know I have running my company. Like when I get a 1-star review, I'm on it, but I wish I knew ahead of time. And that's what this also helps do.

Yes, for sure. Is there ever an opportunity to upsell on Happy Calls? Because that was something that we did at my home service business, which was like that next service. Like, hey, can we get you scheduled for your next service? Could we do this next thing? I know right now it's more NPS-driven, which is like capture the stuff, but I know a lot of people that use Happy Calls or Next Day Calls to try to get that next job on the books or the next thing that didn't come through.

Yeah, absolutely. So that's something we're going to be doing here in the near future and really testing whether that's a moment in the doorman fallacy that like, hey, this is an AI thing, which could be convenient, but it's also like, should a person be doing that?

Yeah.

And making that configurable. But what you touch on is really with experience management versus reputation management, I would urge businesses to start thinking beyond— like, reviews are from people who are a 10 out of 10, a 9 out of 10. They're promoters of your business, right? And when you identify those people, you know, you can market to them differently, right? Like when you build that corpus of your promoters, it's like, great. Well, I would pose this booking work. Absolutely. But Phil, let me ask, since you loved working with us so much and I appreciate the review, would you mind being a reference for us the next time someone's looking for a plumber in your area? One of your neighbors?

Of course.

So what if there's a world, right? And this is what we're building next, where people could ask and get references and get connected, right? Yeah.

That's good.

You build that list. What if every time, few times throughout the year, your reference list gets pinged and you just remind them of, hey, just to remind you, we have our referral program.

Yeah.

Send text me whoever your referral is. I'll transfer it over. This will be coming from the AI, right? So being able to mass build a referral and a reference program that's linked to drive more conversions on the website to build out that relationship, right? So that's another promoter activation. Reviews are a promoter activation. Memberships are a promoter activation. And your calling card can always be a 3-month follow-up, a 6-month follow-up, just checking on things that can be a reference or a referral call. Which is extremely valuable memberships, booking next work. And you know what the great part is? Knowing who those people are that love you, which you may kind of know now, but then at the same time, not only knowing who they are, but referencing that relationship like, hey, you mentioned a few months ago that you love the team. They were super professional and, you know, we had done X, Y, and Z, right? Because of that conversation and say like, you know, we'd love to get you booked for the next service, right? So having their own anecdotes to use on a like individualized marketing basis, text, email, phone call.

From what I'm hearing from you is like Real Work Labs, the, the map and the stuff, it, it's there and it's awesome, but it's not fully connected where everyone can interact with everything. It's, it's what you're building next is like where it's the actual like web of things that can communicate and refer and do things like more taking it from an analog world or whatever, like in the, like to actually like, you know, like into the actual roots of the neighborhood where everyone is kind of connecting in the business.

Absolutely. And it's that pre and that post, right? So like there's the reviews that you have mapping where they came from. And that's where I think we really stood out is on two levels. And I think, you know, again, I would encourage business owners to, you know, not go for everything that has a.ai at the end because common sense and proof definitely needs to be there. But there are really exciting and I think innovative ways, and not just from us but others, to really add depth. Okay? And so, like, on the mapping side, you know, you have your reputation, and it was kind of like two numbers, your rating and the volume.

Yes.

And then we added all these other dimensions like location and photos. But getting reviews, you know, before it was just give me 5 stars. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. Those are just your 10 out of 10s. It's the— 9 out of 10 and below, that's all the information. So again, from there, it's what more can be done. And so that's where I think for us, I know that we've been seeing just a J-curve with our own growth, our own retention, our own everything with this XM platform. But I think there's going to be so many exciting— and I can't wait to see other platforms out there leveraging AI, not just at face value to reduce work, but to actually enable new behaviors, enable new automations, and enable new win-win-wins, right? So the business wins, the customer wins, the technician wins. And again, the more you can solve for those homeowner problems, and I think AI done right puts them first, it's going to be really interesting to see what other kinds of wins businesses can make for themselves on their own, you know, vibe coding some stuff with Claude, or turning to providers, you know, like us.

Yeah. So cool, man. I love hearing what you built and also the vision. It's just so cool to talk to guys like you. So thank you so much. If someone wants to try XM or like sign up for it or figure it out, where should they go to learn about it?

They can email me directly. It's just pierce, like the verb, at realworklabs.com. Or you can go to our website and put in to request a demo and just mention that you had heard it here on Flash. Um, so you go to our website realworklabs.com, you'll see our 4.9 rating on Google. Of course, uh, we take a lot of pride in that, um, backing up what we say. But you can also just email me directly and mention Flash here, uh, and we'll take care of you.

Cool. Thanks, brother. Always good to connect, man. Enjoy. Yeah, why— thanks for hopping on Hawaii time. Appreciate you, man.

Same. Thank you.

All right, see you.