Still Closing Every Deal? Here’s How to Replace Yourself and Scale to $10M

Welcome back to the show. I'm your host, Phil Risher, and on today's episode, we're diving into how to get out of the sales seat and actually build a scalable revenue machine with Steve Caton, founder and CEO of Alteza. Thanks so much for joining us today, Steve.

Hey, good to be here, Phil. Thanks for having me, man.

Yeah, I'm so excited to talk with you because I don't think I've ever had anyone on this show who literally hunts down and finds salespeople to replace business owners and build a sales team. So Gonna be a great conversation today. Can you take a couple, you know, 2 minutes and just share like who you are, what your business does?

Yeah, absolutely, man. Thanks. So it's— I'll start with who I am. So I've been in sales my whole life, Phil. In fact, I remember my parents telling me when I was like 10 years old that I would be in sales. They just— they knew it, you know? You just know, right?

Yeah, you just know.

So anyway, so that's all I've ever done. I started as an entrepreneur right out of college with a buddy. I started a company that we ran together together for 11 years. And then I, then I transitioned into working for other people for about 20 years, maybe a little bit more. And most of the time I was working, I was coming in as that guy that was replacing the founder, trying to get the founder out of the sales seat. So I did that a lot for startup software companies and emerging growth professional services companies. So I kind of sat, I sat in that role. And so I got to kind of have a front row seat to all the challenges that go along with that. And And then, you know, just shortly before, you know, 2020, I started getting the itch to go start my own business again. I was ready to do that. My youngest kid was graduating from college and I was like, I'm ready to go be an entrepreneur again because I've always had that kind of entrepreneurial bent in me. And, but I was like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do with this company? And when I looked at obviously sales, I looked at all the different things that are out there for sales. I saw a whole bunch of fractional sales leadership companies, right? right? So the fractional VPs of sales. I saw a whole bunch of companies doing, uh, kind of outbound cold calling and lead generation. And I— those both, those felt like kind of dirty oceans to me, very rough oceans. And I was like, don't want to go there. Where is the— where's some blue ocean? And to your point, what you said earlier was, I haven't really met anybody that's finding good experienced salespeople and bringing them into that situation. That was the That was the blue ocean that I found after doing some research. And I thought, well, duh. I mean, that makes a ton of sense because that was me. And I remember thinking, I remember learning how hard it is to find people who do that. So, so we started the company at the beginning of 2021 and off to the races we went. So, so yeah, so Alteza is the name of the company. And when we first started it, Phil, it was really our product was really salespeople. So we were bringing these really seasoned salespeople that you'd have to pay well into the six figures to hire full-time, bringing them into these businesses for a fraction of that. And, but we've evolved a lot over that period of time. And now I would say we're a little bit more like a fractional revenue engine builder. And a lot of that's rooted in some of the lessons we've learned along the way, which I know we'll be able to dive into today. So yeah, very cool.

And y'all work with home service businesses?

Yeah, we have worked with some home services businesses and some commercial, you know, kind of HVAC companies and that sort of thing. I think one of the things that's interesting about home services, Phil, is that I think most of the time the sales is done through boots-on-the-ground kind of sales activity. So a fractional virtual sales motion like we have doesn't always fit. But when there's a situation where you have like technicians going to somebody's house to do an estimate or bid, and then they move on and do it again and again and again, and there's no sales follow-up, that's where we've been successful in plugging in good salespeople who know how to follow up and keep those opportunities moving through to the close. So that's where the, that's where the home services context typically plays out for us. Awesome.

So for business owners listening, before you tune out to this, this is the future piece of it. Okay. So virtual estimating is a really big part of the equation and virtual estimating is going to be the standard. So imagine someone goes out on your job site, takes some pictures and everything, and then they get on a virtual estimate with someone or before that fact, The other piece that I would say, I know HVAC contractors that do this. They have technicians that go into the house and they create opportunities for salespeople that are virtual, that do the virtual selling after the technician was at the home.

Yeah.

So I think that this is a big opportunity and it unlocks salespeople all over the world aside from just like your backyard and trying to make these things happen.

Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely right. What's really interesting too, Phil, as a, as a homeowner, I've had a recent experience with some different pool companies because we'd like to build a pool and it's been fascinating to see which ones have a really good sales process and which ones don't. The vast majority of them have come out, looked at the yard, scribbled a drawing, said, here we go, send me a bid, and then I never hear from them again. But the one company, the one that we're going to go with, um, they had a— what, like you said, that a lot of the things they were doing were virtual. They did come on site because they had to look at the property, but then what I got from them were incredible CAD renderings of the pool sitting behind my house, which, as you can imagine, was a big deal because now I'm imagining myself in that pool. And they've had sales follow-up the whole time. So it's been a night and day difference.

Yeah. Okay, cool. So there are 3 sections. So we work with $1 to $10 million home service business. You should listen to this. There are 3 main sections: $1 to $3 million, $3 to $5 million, $5 to $10 million. You know this, I know this. They all have different issues when it comes to sales. And I want to dissect each one together. I would say that $1 to $3 million is the founder-led sales, owner-led sales, no sales system.

Yep.

How would you work with someone if they wanted to replace themselves from a sales seat and plug someone else in, whether it's virtual or in-person? It's pretty— I would say it's relatively similar about that system.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think here's the thing that is almost always happening in that $1 to $3 million space, which is everything has been built to that point on the brute force, uh, skill of the founder, right? So the founder-led is legitimately how it's working. The temptation when that founder says, hey, I'm ready to get out of the sales seat, the temptation is to go do one of two things. Either go hire a marketing company who can help with the lead generation piece or go hire a salesperson who can just, who can go make lead gen happen through their brute force sales efforts, right?

Yeah.

Both of those are almost always a mistake. What you want to do first is actually build your sales foundation. And that begins with really identifying what it is that makes you stand out. Like, what do you want to be known for? And how do you change people's lives as opposed to what do you do? And then because there's so much in home services and so many other verticals, as you know, Phil, there's a lot of noise and confusion. So buyers have a hard time distinguishing one company from the next. So really spending time in the marketing side of things, understanding What do we want to be known for? What really makes us unique? Who really is our ideal client? And then let's build some strategy and some systems around that first. And really what we, we call it RevOps, it's revenue operations, which really involves, it's a combination of marketing and lead generation coupled with the systems like CRM and all the things where you're going to start housing all this information that's going to drive sales. It really matters to build that first instead of just making a hire or outsourcing it all to a marketing company. Does that make sense?

Yeah, for sure. So essentially what you're saying is you need to build the system before you try to outsource it, because if you plug things in, you're going to spend a ton of money on marketing and you're going to hate marketing companies. You're going to hire salespeople and they're going to fail and you're going to say, no one can sell like me, and then you're going to be stuck.

Exactly. Yeah, 100%. What you said, couldn't say it better myself.

So I want to dig in on this particularly because a lot of times people get to 1 to 3 million. They've never they've never hired salespeople in their life, right? They've only done their service and then they can say they can talk to people. So what does it look like to find a good salesperson for a home service business? Like, they're just— how do they find them? What do they do? How do they interact with them?

Yeah, I think, you know, when, um, I'll speak in generalities to just hiring salespeople in general, and then we can apply it specifically into that context. The, I think the biggest, again, biggest challenge and mistake that we make trying to hire salespeople is going based on resume and going based on the interview. So here's the thing. Have you ever interviewed a salesperson who sucked at the interview? I mean, no, they're all great interviews, right? And they typically all come with pretty impressive resumes. They've had success someplace unless they're just getting started. So that doesn't mean though that they're a good fit for our business. So one of the things we've learned in the kind of 5+ years we've been doing this work at Altezza is that core value and cultural fit matters way more than the resume. But that's also the thing that gets ignored. Like most people aren't even evaluating for core value fit and cultural fit, right? So yeah, so you bring somebody in who might be a good salesperson, but then Everybody hates them or they just don't vibe with the owner at all. And that's not good either.

Yeah, I'll give you some quick tips on this. I hired a salesperson recently and what I did was I took our core values and I went to ChatGPT and I said, here's our core values. What questions should I ask them to know if they can do this or not? Then I took their answers from the call and I plugged them back in and I said, what do you think? Is this person good or not? And what do I need to ask them on the second interview?

Brilliant.

Yeah, it worked great. And I mean, I'm sure you can do like core value assessments and all these different tests and stuff. That's like a quick free way that at least gets you some feedback right away.

No, I think that's brilliant because yes, to your point, there's a bunch of assessments out there and you can spend a whole bunch of money on assessments. But it doesn't, we don't have to make it that hard. What you did is really the essence of it, right? It's saying, here are our core values. Now tell me what questions to ask, you know, to align with that. And then give me the feedback. So ChatGPT or another AI, you know, the LLM model is going to work great for that.

Yeah, awesome. Okay, I want to dig in on another thing, which is pay, because there's this back and forth, like, do I get— how much commission do I give them? How much base do I give them? How much self-gen do they do? How much lead gen do I have to do? How do they balance that, especially for the first hire, the $1 to $3 million? Like, how do you come up with those numbers or figure that out?

Yeah, so from a, from a principal level, um, what I want to say here is that paying somebody 100% commission is almost always a really bad idea because even if you have a salesperson who genuinely is motivated by helping people, if they have to make a sale in order to make their rent payment or their mortgage payment or their car payment, it creates this weird tension in them that's very hard to overcome. So they're going to sell first, even if it means selling to the wrong client, right? And so, so we don't want to do that. So we want to find the ideal scenario is some kind of a base that sort of lets the salesperson exhale and know they can, you know, meet their monthly obligations. But then the upside is where the action is, right? You don't want salespeople that are happy living on the base. So, so the base plus commission is, in my view, the only way to go. Now, what— how do you structure it? That honestly depends, I think, on the business. And this is where, again, going back to what we were talking about earlier on working on the systems first and the strategy first before you bring in the people, Have someone who's an experienced sales leader come in and do an analysis and help you figure out what is it, what's the compensation plan that's going to balance the profitability and cost of sales that we need to have for the business and motivating people, motivating salespeople. So there's not, I don't have a blanket formula for it, but I do just, I do believe it's base plus always.

Yeah, I think a lot of times, specifically in the $1 to $3 million, people don't— business owners don't know about on-target earnings. Yes. They're a little like they don't, they don't understand the concept of like the pie in the sky and selling the dream. They're just like, oh, your base is this. And then like, hopefully you can get here if you sell this. Like, you got to like lay it out for them that like when you sell 50 things, you're going to make this much money. And if you do this, but if you do 70 things and here's how I'm going to get you there, you got to really lay it out for them.

Yeah. And you got to understand as the business owner, the other side of that coin that I see business owners make a mistake with is they don't understand cost of acquisition, right? And so, and they don't understand what cost of sale needs to be. And then if they sell more, how does that impact the cost of sales? Like, what does it take to deliver those sales? And so you need, you need some financial acumen to be able to figure all that out and figure out what works for the business so that when you design the compensation plan, you kind of look, you can look at it and go, okay, if we pay this, it's going to take this amount of new business for them to break even, to pay for themselves. But this is the target we need them to hit to really get the ROI and the bottom line profit that we need. And when you know, when you have clarity on that first, then you can design a comp plan that aligns with it.

Okay, makes sense. So first thing that you mentioned was hire for core values. When I went through this, one of our core values is lead with value. So I was looking for someone that wasn't just trying to close deals but was truly leading with value that could get 5-star reviews from their sales process. But like something that has to do with your core values, then you figure out the pay, like like, how's this going to work? And like sell them the dream kind of thing. I want to talk to you about— and this is the last one on the $1 to $3 million— how long do you let these guys live and like struggle or like survive? Like, is it a month, 3 months, 6 months? Is it gut feeling? Like, how do you know?

Yeah, such a good question. So here's, here's my rule of thumb on it. You know, full-time salespeople, if you're going that route, if you're going the full-time route, it typically— industry standards would suggest it's going to take somewhere between 6 to 12 months before they actually start making a a positive impact to the bottom line, right? Before they generate enough money to make us money. Just the norm, right? So what do you do? Do you give them the full 6 to 12 months runway? Maybe, maybe not. It's really important to make sure, again, this is going back to what you were talking about with the systems and the strategy. We need to have metrics in the CRM that tell us that the money is coming. right? Because we don't want to fly on gut feel. If we're just like hoping, man, if we're just hoping Steve's going to finally make a sale and break through, but we don't have data we can look at that says, okay, Steve's got new deals in the pipeline, Steve's making the calls, Steve's deals are moving through the pipeline. If we know that, then we can confidently predict that eventually Steve's going to have the breakthrough. But if we don't have visibility into that and we're just flying on gut feel, that's a pretty dangerous place to be.

Yeah, well, you pretty much teed it up for me because usually 3 to 5 million businesses, it's— they got to run their business on scorecards and dashboards and data in order to get to like 5 million. And usually like 1 to 3, you can get there from like basic systems and brute force. But then to get to the next level, you need to know your data. So, right, you got one sales guy, maybe you start to get 2 or 3 sales guys. What are those data points that you should be looking at in order to hold them accountable, like close rate, average ticket, Is there other numbers that you would want to look at?

Yeah, I always think, you know, when I always talk about leading indicators and lagging indicators when it comes to data. And so with sales, your leading indicators are all based on activity. So it's basically the number of calls being made, the number of proposals being generated, the number of new deals, right? So you've got calls that are happening with leads and not all of those turn into sales opportunities or deals. So it's like, what's the conversion rate from calls to deals? And then pipeline velocity, which is deals moving through the pipeline. That's another data point. It's a leading indicator to look at. And then proposals. And then you start looking at, then you start getting into the lagging indicators, which are conversion rates, right? On the deals, like how, what percentage of them are closing? And then what's the revenue being generated? So getting into what you were saying, Phil, about average deal size. And then sales cycle is another thing that's a little bit more of a lagging indicator to look at how, on average, how long How long does it take them to get the deals closed from the time they first qualify the prospect? So it's a, it's a set of both leading and lagging indicators we want to pay attention to for sure.

So this is why it's important to have a CRM, to have your salespeople in your CRM. And then usually 3 to 5, the owner is still in that sales leader seat, I would say, and they're probably overseeing these salespeople, but they would have like a scorecard or dashboard with these sales numbers in there.

Yeah.

Is this something that you review like weekly, monthly, hold people accountable? Like, is there any best practices around that?

Oh, 100%. And I would say the first best practice is if possible, the owner should not be sitting in that sales leadership seat if possible, right? That's best case scenario.

In-home service, usually what happens is they slide over to the integrator, COO, but they still have their hands in the sales pot because they can still come on site and close big deals.

Yes.

But to get past $5 million, you got to get out of that seat.

You got to get out of the seat. Exactly. And the thing, the biggest gap that I see when the owner is still sitting in that sales leadership seat is unless they've led salespeople for a long time or had sales experience themselves, they're not asking the right questions when it comes to the weekly accountability conversation.

And this is literally why I'm asking you because they get stuck here every single time. So That's why I'm trying to give them some of these questions or these things, like obviously get out of it, but like, what should they be doing?

Yeah, so you asked the question about cadence. Absolutely, there should be a weekly sales sync, right? Which is basically a pipeline review. So you're basically, you're getting the salespeople to open up the CRM, show you the deals that they're working on. You kind of start with the deals that are closest to the finish line first. And you say, hey Phil, tell me about what's the last thing that happened with this deal? What's it going to take to close it? And if Phil, if you say, Well, I had a conversation with the homeowner last week. Well, tell me, how did it go? What did they say? What's the next step? Like, you got to ask very specific questions. What you can't do is have the salesperson say, oh yeah, I talked to them 2 weeks ago. It's great. You know, they should be making a, you know, they should be signing any time now. No, you got to really dig in and ask the specific questions about what was said. What's the next step? When is that happening? Because what you're going to find when you do that is the salespeople that have real discipline in their sales process versus the ones that are just flying by the seat of their pants.

And the ones that are flying by the seat of their pants, they're going to have a pipeline that's huge. Like, I got so many things in here, like I'm closing so much coming up and it's going to continue to be this. You don't want that. You want a tight pipeline where backburnered stuff gets moved through, like really clean.

Yeah, absolutely. And just a tip. Is that if the business owner can't really afford to have somebody doing that full-time, that sales leadership, there's— you can bring in people who can do that part-time. And literally, if you have a sales leader who knows what they're doing and they're working for you maybe a couple hours a week or something, they can, they can make a huge difference in terms of close conversion rate and free the owner up to be doing the things they need to be doing to grow the business.

Yeah, for sure. I think there's a lot of opportunity in the sales process. We see this time and time again with home service businesses. Obviously we do marketing stuff, but like they get leads coming in and then the estimate, like what you say, gets one shot at it and then it's gone forever. Yeah. And there's not a sales process. There's no oversight into the conversion numbers or like what does this look like and how do we get things across the finish line? And like so much opportunity just to go from like a 40% close to a 50% close and not spend any more money on marketing.

Yeah, 100%. You're right.

So we talked about getting out of the sales seat. I think there's a big issue with a lot of home service businesses, and specifically we see this in $5 to $10 million, where the owner gets stuck as the number one revenue driver of the business. They're the ones that are like puppeteering growth, and they have salespeople. They might have a sales lead, but no one is really driving revenue growth because they haven't set the OTE and the goals part of it for their team.

Yeah.

How do you— how would you recommend someone kind of scale out of the sales lead and bring someone in? And then how do they get actual growth going in their business to get them to the next level?

Well, I think, Phil, I think it starts with mindset. Um, because guess— here's what I know. I don't, I don't know if this is true as much in home services, but I know this is true in a lot of the B2B companies we work with. The owner that is the puppeteer, they actually like it. Like they actually get a certain sense of, they kind of get a sense of fulfillment from it.

It's worse in home service because usually they have done the actual job of it.

Yeah.

Like they've done the HVAC or they've done the electrical work. So they're so like, love it. They love that piece of it.

Yeah. Yeah. So there's the first thing I think the first step is to get it right here and take our ego out of it and think in terms of What is it I want to be true? Where am I going with this business? Do I want to sell this business at some point in time? Do I want to pass this business to my kids? Like, what is my exit strategy? Because if you don't know that, or you don't have that clarity, then all the other things that I tell you aren't gonna— they're not going to even want to do it, right? So first, it begins with the why and what's going to drive it. So once they understand my business is going to have no value to a buyer if I'm the kind of, if I'm the guy making it all happen or the woman making it all happen, then they can go, okay, well then I got to figure out how to get out of this seat. So that's the first place. And then as we've been talking through this kind of 1 to 3, 3 to 5, what you're seeing is we're building systems and processes, right? And the stronger those systems and processes get, the more they're, the more they're less dependent on people. So early stage companies, it's all about the big dogs making stuff happen, right? But as you build, as you start to layer in the strategy and the systems and the processes and the predictability and the data that tells us how things are working, the more the owner can start to step out and you can start to replace the owner with somebody else because guess what? It's the system that is driving everything now. It's not necessarily a bunch of, you know, big dog heroes making it happen. You know, does that make sense?

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. I think the first hire that you have is a salesperson. You're like, guy, you got to be better than me. Like, you got to be doing such a good job. As you build a system, it's like, no, plug them into the system, get them the, the training manuals, get them into our actual process, and then you'll weed the best people out from the lowest people. But you have an actual system for sure.

Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the, and the better the system is and the more disciplined you are about sticking to it, the more easier it'll be to figure out who fits in the system and then who's not working in the system. So, you know, you— we always hear that phrase, be slow to hire, quick to fire. Yeah. And which I agree with 100%. If our system is built and we're disciplined about using it, the system is going to tell us really quick if we made a bad hire.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think going back to those numbers that you had mentioned, if you are not tracking those numbers, you're not going to know what to fix in your sales process or system.

Nope.

That is the biggest hurdle that a lot of people run into is like they hear us say system and they're like, what the heck is a system?

Yeah.

It's like all the steps that you've just said has to be a system that you can whiteboard out and figure out from start to finish what happens in your sales process.

Absolutely. That's right. So, you know, one of the biggest examples of that, Phil Risher, is if you've got a salesperson or let's say it's more early stage, if you have deals that are kind of piling up at the end of the sales process, like there's a whole bunch of stuff sitting in proposal.

Yeah.

Then that, so if I know that that's happening, I've got the data around it and I can look at it and go, okay, it looks like all the right things are happening until we get here. So what the heck is happening here? Right? So that it doesn't always give you the data, doesn't always give you the answer as the business owner, but it sure as heck helps you understand what questions to ask. Right? Yes.

Yeah. It will illuminate the bottleneck and then you can say, what's happening here? Why is this going on here?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, nice, man. There's a big shift happening in home service. It's kind of switching gears a little bit, but usually we have CSRs, customer service representatives, who answer the phones. You call in, you need plumbing something, and they're really nice people. They try to schedule you, right?

Yeah.

There's a shift going to inside sales reps, and I've seen this time and time again with like— I was just talking to a $7 million business owner last week. He's doing away with customer service representatives and is hiring remote inside sales reps. Okay, so basically what these people do is the lead comes in and they're responsible for booking it, upselling, building the ticket, like virtually inside sales reps. And then also they're responsible for going through and hunting in the database for this.

Okay, yeah.

Do you have any experience hiring those types of people that are more hunters inside of a database, or leads are coming in, not just like teeing them up on a sales call or something like that?

Yeah, that's actually— so, you know, I mentioned earlier a lot of the companies we work with are B2B kind of professional services or software companies, that is how they operate, right? So they've operated on that inside sales model for a long time where they have some way of generating leads through an inbound marketing strategy of some sort. And so their salespeople are actually, instead of doing cold calls, the salespeople are actually doing outreach to people that are already in a database who've shown some level of intent. And they're pulling a certain percentage of those people into a sales conversation. And they're doing it. Here's the thing that I love about it. About it is that it's a relational sales approach, right? It's not about a transaction or a commoditized kind of process. It's about building relationship and trust and then moving them through the sales process. But the person, that inside salesperson, if they're good, they're going to start with building trust and rapport first, understanding the needs of the buyer, not just trying to immediately start, you know, doing a demo or trying to pitch them. They're listening, they're asking good questions, and they're building trust. So then moving people through the sales process that you built trust with becomes way easier, way, way easier. And, and that feels way more consistent to the buyer too, right?

Yeah. And this kind of ties it together, which is you don't want a bunch of leads coming in from your marketing company. We don't have a system in place to capture those leads because we run into this a lot where people are the home service business. Like, I just want people to schedule appointments on my calendar and I'm going to have my sales guy go. And it's like, that's nice. But that's not every single lead. That's like, you know, the most bottom of the funnel people. You have to work your way, way up the funnel and actually get people through the funnel.

Yeah. You know, I think one of the best analogies for that, Phil, is the dating analogy, right? It's like we don't go out on, you know, we don't meet somebody for the first time at a cocktail party and then say, hey, do you want to get married?

Yeah.

You know, it's like, no, we don't do that. We date, we get to know each other. And so that's a really good example. Like asking somebody to book a call, some people might be willing to go ahead and go from, I'm, I just heard about these guys and I'm going to book a call. Yeah, those are the people that have a very urgent need, but there's a whole bunch of other people out there that may not be ready right now that you can start reaching out to and building conversations with and awareness and trust. And then when the need hits, they're going to call you, right? And so, um, and then there's a bunch of people that might be ready to do something today that just aren't ready to book the call, right? Because they don't want to be sold to. So yes, to your point, having somebody that's just focused on that all the time and building relationship and doing the outreach, but then knows how to close it, that's a really, really valuable position.

Yeah. So I would say if you're listening to this, the huge gold mine here is if you send out email newsletters to your past prospects and customers. We talk about this a lot on email newsletters, say like get $500 off a new generator, schedule your spring inspection, something like that to an email list. You can see who opens that email. So they showed intent. I always tell people, call them, don't be creepy, but just say like, hey, we're scheduling spring inspections for you coming up. Hey, we have a promo going off for $500 off this thing. There's thousands of these people that open your emails.

Yes.

And they just sit there. And these are warm opportunities, like exactly what you're saying.

Yep. Yeah. And we're just waiting on them to book the call. And it's an absolute goldmine. We had one, one of our early customers, Phil, had a database just like that. They basically were inundating this database with email and they were really good at it. And a lot of opens, a lot of opens, but not a lot of book calls. We put a salesperson in there, an inside salesperson who just started calling into that list.

Yeah.

We grew sales literally 40% growth in sales within 3 months because of all this, all the low-hanging fruit that was sitting there in the database.

So good. And I preach this so much that you can't get lifetime value without a lifetime relationship. And if things are just sitting there and you're not taking advantage of it, then you're spending a ton of money on your marketing to get people in the funnel. And you already have people that know, like, and trust you that you can just sell right now.

Yes, I know.

Whoa.

It's like a no-brainer, man.

Yeah. Well, Steve, man, thank you so much. This has been great. Where should people go to learn more about your business?

Yeah, so Altezza Solutions is our web address, and there's two Z's in Altezza. And I'm also on LinkedIn. There's not a lot of Catons out there. So Steve Caton, C-A-T-O-N, is pretty easy to find on LinkedIn. So you can connect with me there. Yeah, go to our website. And then we have a cool podcast we do called Whiskey is for Closers that you can check out on YouTube and Apple and Spotify that where we talk about a lot of this kind of stuff. So we're just riffing on all the fun things that happen in sales and mistakes people make and stories of founders that have built their business through all these stages that we're talking about and lessons they've learned. So that's a good place to connect with us too.

Yeah, very cool. I think I'm going to be a guest on there. So yeah, come hang out with us again over there.

Yeah.

Cool. Thanks, Steve. Good to connect, man. Look forward to continuing the conversation.

Thank you, Phil. It's great to be with you, man.

Yeah.