Stop Buying Leads: How This Turf Business Scaled to Multi-7 Figures Using Relationships
In this interview, host Phil Risher talks with Connor Sweeney, founder of Epic Turf Group, about how the company grew from a niche golf‑green installer into a multi‑division, multi‑state premium home‑service business generating multi‑seven‑figure revenue. Connor explains the evolution of the business model—adding synthetic‑turf courts, golf simulators, landscaping, and a turf‑care service—while maintaining a focus on high‑ticket, high‑touch projects for the top 1‑3% of customers. He highlights the key levers that enabled scaling: building data integrity with a scorecard, expanding the leadership team (COO, ops director), leveraging AI and automation for consistent customer communication, and using text‑based sales workflows. The conversation also covers challenges such as seasonal demand, managing crews across Michigan, Illinois, and Florida, and the logistical hurdles of establishing a permanent Florida base. Connor shares tactics for customer retention and upselling, including the newly launched Epic Turf Care division, a content calendar for cross‑selling, and a structured B2B partner program that offers referral kickbacks. Throughout, both speakers stress the importance of clear communication, setting expectations, and educating partners and customers about the niche synthetic‑turf industry. Practical advice is offered on building scorecards, hiring business‑development staff, and creating systematic SOPs from recorded sales calls.
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Welcome back to the show, I'm your host Phil Risher. And on today's episode we're talking with Connor Sweeney about how he's building a premium niche home service business and scaling it across multiple markets. Thanks so much for joining us today Connor.
Yeah, thanks man. Appreciate you having us.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So can you take a sec just like give us a quick rundown. I know we talk in pre show you said you did some really cool stuff and like what's your business?
Yeah, yeah. So I've always been an entrepreneur, business owner, kind of small startup stuff all the way up to running big businesses as an employee and then kind of on my own the last like 10 or so years of Epic Turf in general. Epic Turf Group kind of my main business started as just a high end golf green building company on the side and then it kind of morphed into this hey now let's do lawns, hey let's do other other things, right? And now we do golf simulators and basketball and pickleball courts and we do some landscaping now just because we're in these customers backyards, you know. So it's kind of, it's morphed all throughout over the last five or five years or so. And Epic Turf Group itself has a bunch of divisions. Epic Golf Sims, Epic Courts, Epic Outdoor Services. We are based in Holland, Michigan which is right on the lake west of Grand Rapids. We service the whole state of Michigan. I'm right in the middle of an acquisition of a guy in Illinois so we'll be branching into the Chicago market pretty aggressively in 2026 and then I've got an office in Northport, Florida which is between Sarasota and Punta Gorda on the west side of the of the state. So we kind of service Tampa down to Naples in Florida. So yeah, kind of all over the board. The Florida thing was really, really to you know, keep all of our guys working winters in Michigan. Obviously there's not a lot of outdoor work to do here then which also why we got into golf simulators and some of these other indoor, you know we're doing big baseball facility right now, 20,000 square foot training facility with turf and, and netting. So I mean we're kind of a general construction company at this point. But yeah, it's kind of the niche like you said in the like higher end recreation space.
I guess so yeah, I love it. And talking pre show, I mean you scaled this business you know, multi seven figures and it, it hasn't been through just like Google, the Google Gods Blessing you with leads or something like. Right, you know, how have you. Is it like through relationships? Is it through brute force of cold calling and outreach or what does that look like?
Yeah, I mean, obviously it's a mix of everything. We started as a deal, one of the manufacturers, they kind of sell and manufacture all the surfacing products out there. And so that was kind of how it began and then it just kind of morphed into, hey, I can't be reliant on one brand, one manufacturer, one thing. And then obviously our ability to problem solve and help people figure stuff out is really the key thing, like our niche and what we're in. Everything we do is kind of specialty and, and typically our customer, whether it's a contractor working for somebody already or an end homeowner or a facility owner, they've never done what we do typically. And so they're looking to us to be the consultant, architect, you know, source or builder, everything. And that's kind of how I've built my whole career is just around, you know, things that nobody knows how to do. And that is chaos in the day to day, as you can imagine. All my employees probably shake their head every time I walk in the room because it's constantly like, all right, what's he going to come up with next and how are we going to figure that shit out? Right? And so it's been fun, but it's also stressful and, and like we talked about before the show, like the 1 to 3 million, like world that I've lived in the last few years is extreme chaos. And going from 3 to 10 million is what is going to be kind of the next challenge I got and the next challenge my team has and, and kind of elevating up or elevating out really is. It's got to go. I think. So, yeah, we're excited. It's good.
So yeah, the 3 to 5, like to go from 3 to 5, this is the exact thing that I had 3 million and it went to 5 million and the biggest thing was the data integrity. So like when I went out the $3 million business, I used to work at Enterprise Rent a Car and I was trained on a $27 billion family owned business of how to run a local service business. That was $2 million and I was the number one branch manager. And when I went to work at this duckling company, that was $3 million. They had no scorecard, they didn't know leads year over year, they didn't know jobs year over year. They didn't Know estimate count year over year, they know estimate close new customers, all this stu. So I built this scorecard and then I dialed in return on ad spend and it was pretty easy to be like, okay, well we just need more of these and more of this. And the data, I would say from three to five, that's good. And then also around four to five is like what we did was start building out our leadership team. So we got a COO gm, we had an ops director. The owner was like you like a sales like savant commercial guy. Like everyone loved him. You go in and sell whatever. And then I was really focused on operations and driving growth with the customer service reps and all this stuff. And that helped us scale. And I would say like for you that's probably like the next couple of things that I would recommend doing. For sure.
Yep.
You mentioned about like, you know, your customer experience and like maybe even branding of some sort. Is there like maybe a couple of things that you could pinpoint that's like this is how I elevated the customer experience to show that we're a premium brand or like this is what I do aside from just like being available? Maybe, maybe that's part of it.
But yeah, yeah, that's a tough one, right. Because like we have great customers but we also, you know, we work for the top, you know, 1 to 3% of people. Right. We're selling exactly thousand dollar golf greens and $100,000 golf simulator setups. And I mean these people are, bless their souls, they're needy. Right. And so I would say like the availability and like working with me is, is probably the number one thing which also what makes it super difficult to get more salespeople and skill list and, and keep that same customer experience for those people. I want employees and people to have good quality of life. But I do respond to everybody at nine o', clock, ten o' clock at night. Right. Like I don't expect my employees to do that. And so continuing to use AI and automation and some of these systems that are now available to us to like keep that same similar customer experience I think is probably one of the biggest, hardest things for us. But it also, it's also the biggest, the biggest advantage we have. Right? Because we do do those things that those other people don't do. Right. And so yeah, I think that's the number one thing. And then obviously just the fact that you know, we have, and all of my guys and girls have the approach that the customer is not necessarily always right, but they certainly come their opinion matters. And we're going to listen to them and we're going to do everything we can to, to please them and make them happy, right? They're spending a lot of money with us and you know, no offense to people mowing lawns or transactional stuff, business, but like, if I lose a customer, it's a big deal, right? If you lose. If our customer concentration, you know, is, is, is smaller because of the size of the projects we're doing. And so not to say our customers are more important than other people's customers, but at the end of the day, they are to us, right? And so that relationship is huge. And making sure they're happy and making sure that, you know, obviously they're telling their friends, you know, how smooth things went, how the communication was. That's the one thing I've learned in the construction world. There's a lot of fly by pant, you know, contractors that, you know, they, they're taking a deposit to finish the job they're on. And, and, and we call it the hamster wheel or the, the Ponzi scheme. The contractor Ponzi scheme. Right? And really, at the end of the day, as long as you're communicating with people and telling them and being honest with them what's happening, why it's happening, people are understanding, right? They, they know life happens. They know suppliers suck. They know, they know all these things. But the second you just don't respond or you're not there or you don't, you know, communicate, that's where it, where it, it stems back to. And ironically, my wife taught me that in our marriage, right? Like, if I just communicate with her, it all goes smooth, but if I don't, then, then we got problems, right? So I try to, I try to ingrain that in everybody on the team and ingrain that into the customer and, and help set expectations like, with them of like, hey, these are times we'll be here, not be here. Please leave. You know, my lead guy alone after five, right? He's, he's got a family, right? So again, setting that expectation, showing the culture impact and, and getting everybody rolling in the same direction is a big part of what we're doing or trying to do.
Yeah, well, it sounds like you're a great leader in protecting your team, but also still, you know, incentivizing them to deliver a great customer experience as well. So, like, that is really hard, fine line. And it also is like, you know, it's working out, I would say, like, you know, the guy in Illinois, like, systematizing that to your point, that's the part that's like the secret sauce that is tough for a lot of people.
Yeah.
One guy that I talked to, he is recording his sales calls and then using AI to bring them into SOPs and then giving them to the new guy to be like, hey, here's how I talk to the customer. Here's what I say, here's the questions that I ask. Could be something maybe that's useful as you go through that process.
Yeah, I like that.
Yeah.
It's crazy. So much of my sales process now is done via text message and, like, emails and, like, not even on the phone, which, again, I. It's a time thing for me. Right. Like, I'm. Right now I just. I'm looking at my phone. It's blowing up. Right. Because I'm getting. I'm. I'm currently selling four things at the same time. Right. So, like, figuring out how to train people to do that is. Is definitely another level. And again, there's so much automation now that. That I don't utilize and. And should that. You know, it's constantly changing by the minute, so we got to definitely get on board with some of that stuff.
Yeah, dude, great stuff. I want to ask you about retargeting and, like, maintenance agreements or anything, because, like, you're doing all this stuff, like, do you have, like, has that been in the works or.
Yeah, so it's again, one of those things of like, where does the time come? Or how do we make it happen? But. But I did take the plunge last year and created Epic Turf Care for. For my customers, which is literally its own business, essentially. I've got a full crew now that is set up to do that and manage that, which, when. When you're smaller, you only have so many. So many clients, it's tough to do that. Right. But I'm pretty excited about that. Launching into 2026. Like I said, basically a whole team, a whole process there. The. The best part about that is right when I, you know, acquiring this guy in Illinois, he's got hundreds of customers. We've got hundreds of customers now in our area. And so now it makes sense to have that dedicated setup, at least on the turf side. Right. That's. That's the hardest part of my business is, you know, I'm running seven different types of businesses within one. And so some days it's like, man, are we really, you know, spinning our wheels on this? We got. Or. Or should we. Do we need to do this now? You know, and so, yeah, but those are the things that are going to take us to, you know, the next million, 2 million, 3 million more is these different divisions that kind of play off of and increase that customer value for us. Like I said, customers are very important to us. That's a transactional thing compared to what we're used to doing. So kind of changes the whole process of how we transact and treat them and handle their inquiries and all the people that they touch and so on and so forth. Right. So, yeah, definitely, we don't do a very good job of retargeting or reselling our customers, but it's definitely something that we're. We're trying to invest in and have the proper, like, hey, you know, when you buy something from us, this is what. This is the program. You have to keep the warranty and have these other things, you know, after the fact. So again, a lot of systems and training that have to happen to get that dialed in. But yeah, yeah.
One of the things that I might recommend is having a content calendar, like, every month. January, February, March, April, May. And then, like, you know, based off of the different things that you do, like, hey, at this time, we probably want to talk about this thing. At this time, we want to talk about this thing. And then what we do is, like, we'll have an email newsletter that goes out every single month. And then it will basically, like, cross sell a different service and then have like, maybe like, you know, the turf care there that's, like, always going on. And then like, social posts and blog posts. It's kind of like all tied to this content calendar that revolves around whatever's going on in this seasonality of the business.
Yeah, yeah, our stuff is super seasonal. Right. I mean, just being in Michigan, it has to be. And so, you know, it's. It's. I think one of the most frustrating things I have is customers that we've done one of our services or, or products for, they don't know we do the other service. Right. Like, I had a guy last week where I. I checked in with him. He's like, yeah, dude, I just got this golf simulator. It's awesome. Like, you're kidding me. Who'd you get a golf simulator from? That's literally my main business right now, you know, like, how did I not. This guy spent 100 grand with us before, right? So it's like, how does he not know? You know? And it's like, that's on us or on me, you know, to make sure we're. We're Doing that. So yeah, again, time people that, that's the biggest thing is like having someone that understands all the business and able to help portray that. I, I just kind of took the plunge and hired a guy that's going to do biz dev. Only like biz dev networking. Like, like old school. Yeah. Just like literally his job is to preach from the mountaintop all the things we do. Right. Love it. So that's again, no structure to it. I just know I need it. So I hired him and, and we'll figure it out as we go. Right. But again, it's, it's getting the right systems behind that that, you know, hopefully can help us monetize it.
Yeah, for sure. Two things that I would maybe recommend to you. Like definitely the email, like cross selling stuff to your past processing customers would crush it because then this guy would know about the simulator. But then this new guy that you hired. What we did at my company was we would call all of our customers in the shoulder season and basically, you know, talk to them about the new things that we have coming out, like great customer experience and customer service, but then also just like introducing all this new stuff and then we would try to schedule them for like, hey, we're going to be in your neighborhood next week. Let's just, can, can I come by and take a look at what we did and then like, you know, get a lay of the land and then like, hey, oh, this would be a great spot for this. So it's just like kind of taking what you're doing and like maybe blending it together with this guy.
More proactive selling. Like we're, we are very much reactive salespeople right now because I, number one, don't have salespeople. Right. That's number two. It's just, I don't, we're not generating enough. We're focused on generating new fresh leads not, you know, regurgitating the ones we've already touched. Right. And so. Exactly. Yeah, definitely. Good, good advice for sure. I mean these are all things that we've thought of. It's just a matter of like, yeah, I guess it's just a big ass retainer to you and we rock and roll. Right.
I'm just giving you ideas of things that like the, you know, ways to grow your business as well. I am curious about the Florida thing. So do the guys from Michigan like you, you, you know, move them down there and then like.
So it's, it's, it's been a nightmare. I'll be honest with you. It started as and we've. This was the year I changed it. 2025 changed it. And you know, I always tell everybody I've been half pregnant in Florida for a long time, which is a weird thing to think about, but it's true, right? We, we travel already. Like all our guys are on the road pretty much every week. We live in Airbnbs and hotels. So like, we're used to that concept in general, but it's typically in a more structured manner in, in certain areas. Right. Whereas in Florida we were traveling down there and you know, working for two or three weeks at a time, then traveling home. We're driving trucks and trailers and equipment and everything down there, parking them in, in Walmart parking lots and, and semi storage, you know, gravel lots and like no real structure at all. So we decided, or I decided last year. I'm like, I'm done with this. We're buying a house. So I bought a house that the crew and I, I moved, I promoted one of my guys to like the lead foreman in Florida, moved him down there, so he lives down there now. We've got a house with, with about an acre of land that we can keep all of our stuff, so we've got a home base. And then I also said, hey, we were selling anywhere in Florida, like we just needed work, so a job and we can get it, we'll take it. So I remember last year we were in the panhandle to Miami. Like we were all over the place. And so I said we need to just like shrink the service area and just really dive in to try and focus on getting more sales in that area. And, and again, it's basically been like starting a new business and it's gone really, really slow, which, which sucks. I've lost a lot of money this, this winter of like doing all this, but I think I'm, I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm starting to see that longer term is if we keep the hammer down, that we'll get the relationships, we'll get the contractors, we'll get the customers and, and it will long term be the right solution, I think, but it's just not. You know, Rome wasn't built in a day and I want it done in an hour, you know, so that's been tough, but yeah, it's been great. But we still rotate guys down crew wise throughout the winters and some of my guys get laid off in the winter and go back to Mexico or whatever. And then. Yeah, and then we've got Some local labor down there that we use, so it's kind of all over the board. I obviously love being in Florida. I've got three young kids and a family and a basketball family. So winter, there's games and practices all over. So I don't get down there as much as I would love to, but. But longer term, obviously, being in Florida is something I want to do, so.
Yeah. Sick. Another idea that I just have for you was doing B2B partnerships. So, like, hardscapers, landscape lighting, people, like, they could definitely refer you, and then they could get a cut of whatever they referred you.
Yep. So we have a pretty good partner program like that. That. That's a big part of our. I guess when you asked her get biz, that wasn't something I mentioned, but. But it is. That is a big part of it. Right. A lot of times we're working for a contractor or with a contractor, and. And we do one job with them, and then they remember us, and it's like, hey, we got another one for you. And sometimes it's them just subbing us, and we're like, part of their deal. Other times it's. They're getting a 5% kick on. On any project they refer to us. We're with a lot of landscape supply houses, you know, that are local, that, you know, sell brick and mulch and rock and stuff to landscapers. So we do a lot with them. We've got another division now starting this year called Epic Turf Supply, which is more of a wholesale distributor of synthetic turf and accessories and stuff. Right. So that's continuing to grow. And synthetic turf's a weird niche as far as, like, the installer goes. Right. Like, the guy that is really good at seaming together turf and infilling and shaping is different than the guy that's really good with a plate compactor and a skid steer. Right. And so when you have a guy that can do both of those, like, I do that, we pay them very well, and they do a very good job. But like most landscapers, they're good at one or the other. Right. So it's turning into more like, hey, let me buy turf for me so I can install it. They do one or two jobs. They're like, yeah, I don't really want to do that again. So. So then they maybe they do the base work, and then my guys come in and turf it. Right. And so all those synergistic relationships, like, are huge for us. Obviously, synthetic turf in general has. The market is booming in Florida, Arizona, Texas, California. It's really common. Right. And the market's saturated in the Midwest. It's not mostly because the seasonality, mostly because the. The weather and the water issues aren't an issue. Right. There's. There's plentiful amounts of water in the Midwest compared to some of these other states. So as the industry grows and changes too. Right. It's. It's. It's a big education thing. I feel like I'm educating everybody every day. Every customer, every contractor. Like, hey, how do we do this? Or what is this? Or why do you do this this way? Or. Or what do you recommend? Right. Like, I. It's just constant. It feels like I'm a consultant. Unpaid consultants. Right. Which is frustrating. So.
Yeah.
But, yeah, pretty. Pretty fun.
Yeah. One of the things that happened to me, you know, I used to just get business cards passed to me and it was like, cool. Yeah, you know, we'll hear from you, whatever. So what I ended up doing was putting those B2B partners into an email newsletter as well.
Okay.
Yeah. Separate one. So then I could, like, coach them, like, hey, I've been getting a lot of questions on this. Like, here you guys go. By the way, if you want to refer us, you get X amount of kickback. Here you go. And you're just like, in their pocket.
Yeah.
So it's not just like, oh, remember about you, you know?
Yeah, Yeah, I like that. That's a good idea.
Yeah, man. Cool, brother. Well, it's been great. Like, you're. I love talking to guys like you because you have. You will never be short on ideas of how to grow a business and, like, serve the community. And so, like, you're doing a great job with that, man. And, like, appreciate it, man.
Thank you. Kudos to you.
And, like, with the family, too, dude. Like, good stuff. Where should people go to learn about your business? Maybe they could be a referral partner even. Like, if you're listening to this,
I got about five websites. Epicturfgroup.com is kind of our main website. We got epic, epic, hyphen, courts.com. we got epicgolfsims.com, facebook, Instagram. We've got all the handles and stuff like that. I don't know if you can link our stuff in your post, but, yeah, mostly online or just reach out to me. Csepicturfgroup.com. you know, we love to work with everybody and help educate, help help it grow the industry in general. This niche world. Everybody, you know, wants to be in a niche until you have to actually do the niche, right? So. Yeah, but reach out. Love to. Love to work with everybody.
Cool. All right, brother. Take care, man. See you.
Cool. Thanks, Phil. Appreciate it.
