Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things (Pt. 1)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy. Welcome back to Readers. It's been a long time, but we are back now. I promise to be more regular this time. Honestly, I don't know how many people this podcast has touched, but it's been such an incredible gift for me. I've learned so much from books by talking about them and reflecting with the incredible guests I've had the pleasure of working with. Speaking of guests, today I have Mr. Anand Gandhi joining me as a guest on this pod. Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Gandhi.

Hey, Prithu, thanks for having me. Appreciate the opportunity and excited to talk about something that has really made me excited to start off the year. By way of quick introduction, I'm a corporate attorney professionally, but also a father, a husband, a DEI advocate, and an aspiring writer. And I'm, uh, working on my own journey to unlock my potential. So, um, this, this book has, uh, really resonated with me.

Absolutely. Thank you for being here. Uh, and thank you everybody for tuning in. Today we are going to be discussing a book by one of my personally favorite authors of all time, Adam Grant. His book, Hidden Potential, published in October of 2023, is one of the current newest and most chart-topping books right now. In this book, Grant discusses the science behind achieving greater things, speeding up progression, strengthening your shortcomings, and the building blocks to achieve effectively. So without further ado, let's dive into Chapter 1, Creatures of Discomfort.

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, absolutely. Let's jump in.

So one of the trends I've kind of noticed in these recent, uh, self-help books is that they all kind of tend to tell a story while they try to prove a point. Um, and I think I've really enjoyed it. It helps the point come across much better. And so this book is no different. It starts out with a story of Sarah Maria, who is a polyglot who can speak 5 languages fluently and conversationally in 4 others. Through one of her trips, she met a man named Benny Lewis, an Irish engineer who can speak 6 languages fluently and and pro— has proficiency in 4 others. So I mean, this is amazing, right? Like, being able to speak 9 different languages is not exactly a very common thing to find. Um, and a lot of us think that these are just people who kind of have an ability or who are just born with it. Um, but that's, that's really not true. So Adam Grant kind of talks a little bit about what they have that's not just the language gene but, um, they— how— what they did to speed up their learning.

Yeah, you know, I found this whole part very surprising because I think we're always told that, you know, whatever you learn as a child, that's what you're going to learn, and then the brain's not able to learn as quickly and you won't be able to pick up language. And I thought, you know, Adam Grant flips all that upside down and throws that out the window because he explains that really the difference— what changes between being a child and adult is the fact that as adults we avoid being uncomfortable. We're, we're afraid of failing and we're afraid of being judged. And so we just don't do things that are uncomfortable, whereas kids don't do that, right? They, they, when they're walking, they wobble all over, they fall, people stare at them, but they're not fazed by those things. And I see that all the time at home with, with my kids. You know, they'll, they'll say something and it makes very little sense, but they just keep talking like they're good with it. And I think that's why they continue to grow and learn. And that's the secret. It's that being uncomfortable. And, and he kind of really points it out well with this example of language learning. If you wanna learn a language, you just gotta go have hard conversations and you're gonna sound really dumb and say things that don't make sense. But through that process, you're gonna expedite your process of learning. And, and that's what these polyglots master. They're not mentally that different. They're just willing to be uncomfortable.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, just giving an example from my own life, right? I learned Sanskrit, which is a language, and I learned it for 6 years. I don't really think I was ever uncomfortable while learning it, right? You just learn the basic grammar, you go to class every week, and even after 6 years, I didn't— I don't think I know it so well. And I think Benny and Sarah Maria share that same thing. Benny couldn't speak Irish after he studied for 11 years. He couldn't speak German after 5 years, and he moved to Spain after college. And he still didn't learn it. So a lot of people think they kind of missed that age window to learn a new language and other things. They're not born with that language gene, but this is false. So you kind of touched on this with being uncomfortable, throwing yourself out there, and Grant talks about this as well, that they overcame a motivational hurdle. They got comfortable being uncomfortable. So he says that the best way to accelerate growth is to embrace Seek and amplifying discomfort. Now that's kind of interesting, right? Usually when you're trying to learn something, you don't seek discomfort. You're trying to be comfortable with learning something, right? And that's, that's kind of how we look at it. But Grant kind of flips that around and says that it's about seeking discomfort. So Mr. Gandhi, when was the last time you did something uncomfortable? Why did you do it? And you know, how did that kind of affect you and how did it really turn out?

So, so I'm definitely one of those people who tries to avoid doing things that are uncomfortable. I'm definitely a victim of that. And so it doesn't happen too often. But, you know, one actually example that happened a few years back, and I think that's kind of like led to this comfort, which is probably a false sense of confidence. But a few years ago, my wife Avni has been telling me like, let's do house projects, let's do house projects. And I always avoid that because growing up I never touched power tools. I don't feel comfortable doing things. We always call someone, hire someone to do it. So we ended up doing some woodwork in our bedroom and we just dove in. I used the nail gun. I used tools that I've never used. And out of that, I gained a whole sense of confidence. It was one project and now I'm like, oh yeah, nail gun, let's do it. I know how to find a stud and I know how to do all these things, which I learned only doing one project. And it wasn't that I didn't know how to use those tools. I think I'd seen people do it long enough. I was just uncomfortable of failing. Like, I didn't want to make a mistake and then have it look ugly, so I never did it. I can't say I'm good at it, but it's crazy. Just like one, one opportunity to do something and be uncomfortable. And when you feel that success, you're like, oh, I could do this. And that confidence is really unlocks like your ability to be like, yeah, I'll give it a shot. Since then, I've tried like I'll watch a YouTube video and try little things around the house, which I never did before. And Um, it's cool to see that.

Yeah, no, for sure. And, um, Grant actually says that this problem of not seeking discomfort is not something we're just born with as people. He says this problem has actually been amplified by the American school system, which is a really interesting point to me. I didn't expect that, um, to come up. He said for— so he goes back a long time ago that for a long time schools were basically like factories. He says every student was treated the same, standard education for all, right? But people realized this doesn't really work. And by the 1970s, people discovered learning styles—visual, auditory, kinesthetic—and they learned. They felt like visual learners learn by watching, auditory learners learn by listening, kinesthetic learners learn by moving their bodies and learning in that way. But Adam Grant makes a really bold statement here, and he says that learning styles are myths. No evidence that learning styles affect growth scores, progress, or anything else. And he says— and he explains why. He says learning styles equal comfort, right? And comfort equals limited growth. Now, I think he was pretty straightforward here, right? When you learn in the way you're comfortable learning, you are probably not pushed to learn another learning style, right? You're not pushed out of your comfort zone. You're right where you want to be. And that's the last thing you want in a quality education, right?

Yeah. I think one thing I remember growing up in school, you were always like, they did these exercises to help you identify, like, what's your learning style? And teachers were encouraged to be like, oh, like, if you're a kinesthetic learner, or even they would tell you, like, at home, then use, learn in that way. So if you need to memorize for a test, you know, if you're a visual learner, make note cards. If you're, uh, you know, auditory learner, like say it repeatedly and, and listen to it, make a recording. Um, and here what he really says is like, that was actually like learning in the way, only in the way that you're comfortable is actually detrimental, right? It's, it's, it's a not productive. It's more productive to learn in a way that you're uncomfortable in because that's gonna stick with you. And if you think about it, that's kind of true, like just from our regular experiences. And yet you know, what teachers were telling us in school growing up was, was exactly the opposite.

Yeah. And he says this all kind of ties back to courage, right? Embracing what makes you feel uncomfortable, working harder to learn something new. And he gives another example of the famous comedian Steve Martin. As many do, he was failing at the beginning of his comedy career, getting heckled. He was working hard, but he was just not really succeeding. And his problem was that he was uncomfortable with writing, right? Right? It wasn't his style. He liked to shoot off the hip. He liked to, you know, just make things up on the spot. Um, so he would procrastinate. He would put it off. Um, and Mr. Grant brings up another quite interesting point here. He says people think that procrastination is laziness, but in reality, procrastination is just emotion manage— is just an emotion management problem. He says that procrastination is just avoiding unpleasant feelings that inactivity stirs up. But while doing that, you're also avoiding where you want to go, right? Uh, giving you an example from my own life, right? Uh, I play basketball. Uh, one of every basketball player's least favorite parts of practice is conditioning, right? The running for 10, 20 minutes before practice and coach yelling at you every time somebody slows down, starting over if somebody else stops, and you know, that kind of thing. Obviously, You know, and I would, I was somebody who would try to avoid that as much as possible, right? But you know, at one point you kind of realize you gotta do this if I want to get better. And that's the same thing that happened to Steve Martin. He realized he needed to write to become more successful at comedy. And that's why they kind of tell this story of him. A variety show took a chance on him. He really just, he wasn't good at writing for a long time. He kept doing it, But what he didn't know is that writing really helped him become a better comedian in the future. It helped him trim the fat from his jokes. And he said that that's what made, that's what took out the essence of the joke and actually made it funny. So the author says that embracing such discomfort helped him turn into one of the biggest comedians in America and even helped him grow to love writing. I'll give you guys another example here, and that's with the gym, right? I wasn't exactly, nobody really is born just loving the gym the first time they go. It's difficult. You're not exactly in the best shape. And after I did it for a year, it got a little bit easier, right? I learned to have processes that made me enjoy it. I got to see people that I wanted to see. And even the process of actually working out, I grew more familiar with. And after doing something that originally made me uncomfortable, I actually began to enjoy it after a year.

Yeah, I, I can totally, you know, resonate with that experience. And I think that's very similar to my own strength training journey. Like I'm a small guy, I don't lift a lot of weights. And so, you know, a big part of being able to get stronger is you gotta start wherever you are and then work your way up and But when you walk into the gym and everyone's like got big dumbbells and they're throwing around all this weight and you're the small guy and you're curling next to an old woman who's got like double the weight, you feel really embarrassed. And I think a big part of it is like just learning to embrace that and be like, you know what, I'm uncomfortable, I'm embarrassed, and I'm clearly not as strong as most people here, but if I don't start here, I'm not gonna make it up anywhere. And I think once you get past that and you're like, okay, well I'm just gonna be me and enjoy. And I think That's a huge— it's a huge thing. And obviously, again, ties in just to this idea of you just got to learn to be uncomfortable if you want to grow. And that's— I really like the way he's explained that.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and that's why he kind of talks about that. That's where he kind of goes back to the learning style idea. He says, you know, just because you're comfortable with it doesn't mean it's the best way to grow. And instead of finding the right learning style for the person, you should try to find it for the task. Uh, and he gives a couple of examples of how, you know, reading improves comprehension, recall, analytical processing, whereas listening involves intuitive thinking, right? So you should kind of go into which process, which style works better for which task.

Yeah, you know, when he did kind of along with being uncomfortable, and he goes into this as well, which I think is, it's such a valid point. One of the biggest things that makes us uncomfortable is feedback, right? Like when we get negative feedback, that makes us uncomfortable. And what he talks about when he talks about kind of criticism and advice and critique, all of that, he kind of talks about that at great length and says that, you know, the first, we're often too uncomfortable listening to feedback that people are giving us and so that we don't grow from that. But then secondly, it really talks about like, what kind of feedback do we want? And I think that really hit home for me. Like, he talks about how when we're asking for feedback, we're asking the wrong question, you know? And so we get terrible responses. For example, you ask, how did it go? What did you think of it? And so people give you open-ended answers. And instead, you're asking, instead of seeking feedback, he says, Why don't you talk about asking for advice? When you ask for feedback, people talk about how well you did last time, and that's not really that helpful. Whereas if you ask for advice, it's like, what can I do better next time? And so in order to nudge people towards kind of future-looking statements, he, you know, like instead of saying, how did it go? Maybe ask, what's one thing I could do better next time? And that way you're asking someone for specific and giving them a question that they can answer in a way that's helpful to you. And then the second thing that he talks about that resonated with me on this as well, and this is kind of a personal thing, is like, you, we distinguish politeness and kindness, right? Like we confuse the two and we think, we think of them as being one and the same. Yeah. Being polite is when you withhold feedback to make someone feel good. And then we do a lot of that, right? Like if someone says like, oh, how's my hair look today? You're not gonna say it's like, oh, you're just gonna say it's nice. It's the polite thing to do. But being kind is being candid about how they can get better tomorrow. Right? And so I think sometimes we confuse the two and we want people to just be polite all the time. But that stunts our growth. And what we really need is people to be kind and give us that candid feedback. But I think on the flip side, people are only going to do that when you're comfortable hearing it and not getting defensive or not, you know, closing your mind to it. And so I think it's, it's an important thing. And I really like how he talks about that.

Yeah, and that's a perfect segue actually into Chapter 2, which is all about being a sponge. He gives the example of Mellody Hobson, who is basically the embodiment of a human sponge, right? She grew up one of 6 kids to a single mother in Chicago, very stressful childhood, but today is co-CEO of Ariel Investments. She's the chairwoman of Starbucks and she's one of Time's 100 Most Influential People. So her success is due— Grant talks about how her success is due to a couple of things. One is her work ethic, right? And, you know, he gives a couple of examples about just grinding through what might have been difficult, embracing that discomfort. But he also talks about that feedback part of it. You know, she had When she was younger, she had a burning desire to learn what she did not know. And so she would meet a man named John Rogers who was a founder of a large minority-owned investment firm. And she would meet him on Saturdays to learn about the stock market. She had what Grant calls absorptive capacity, which is the ability to recognize, value, assimilate, and apply information. And he kind of dives a little bit deeper into absorptive capacity here. He says it's based on two habits. One is how you acquire information. Do you— are you proactive? Do you seek out new knowledge besides what comes into your field of vision? And the second is your goal you're pursuing when you acquire that information. Are you feeding your ego or are you fueling growth? And then he goes back to that point that you were just talking about, about feedback, that true learning happens when we are able to really listen to other people, when we are able to take criticism positively and use it as input to improve.

Yeah. You know, one thing he, he also talks about, it's like this distinction between, you know, in terms of whose feedback do you want to take, right? That's the other thing that sometimes we take feedback from a lot of different people. And, and I think he, he has this like graph that he provides with these concentric circles of care, familiarity, and credibility, right? So yeah, you, you need the right mix of all three. You need someone who cares about you and wants what's best for you. You also want someone who's familiar and knows you, because sometimes if you get feedback from someone who doesn't know you, uh, it might not be applicable to you, or, or it might— they might not be trying to help you if they don't care about you. And so, and then last is credibility. You also want something from an expert. Like me asking my son for feedback about something is not very helpful. He's not credible. And so that, that sweet spot in the middle of care, familiarity, and credibility, that's something really important that I think we lose sight of sometimes because we always, we're asking for feedback from people wherever we find them. And while that might be helpful, if we kind of hone in on those three, I think it could become much more amplified. And having a few people like that in your life who can do that is, is I think huge. Key to success, like having a few good friends, um, who are credible as well, not just friends. Uh, it's really important. No, absolutely.

And so he introduces 3 different types of people here, right? He says, and, and like you just talked about, which sources to trust, right? The people who have care, who have credibility, and who know you well. Um, and the sweet spot is between those 3. And he says there's 3 different types of people who might you know, give you feedback or who are trying to, uh, give you criticism. The first is, well, a critic, right? This is the person who sees your weaknesses, attacks your worst self. That's what he says. The second is a cheerleader, someone who sees your strengths and celebrates you. And the third is the sweet spot, right? A coach who sees potential and helps you improve, right? And I thought that was really, really interesting, right? Because when you, when you take feedback, you have to consider where it's coming from. And that's not really something At least I've never thought about that before, right? Of how much it matters where feedback comes from. And he brings up that really interesting point. And that's, he says that's one of the keys to being a real, a good sponge is deciding which information to absorb and not. And then he kind of closes this chapter out with another interesting point. He says that sponges should not only absorb, but also exert, right? Being a good sponge is not just somebody who takes, takes, takes, but also somebody who can give, help, challenge others, and pass that on. Going back to the example of Mellody Hobson, Adam Grant says she's always the person who will give him real good best feedback that he will get, you know? He said, he gives an example of speaking at an event that she was at, and he knew that everyone would just say, "Good talk, good talk." And instead of just all of that fluff, she gave him real feedback to help him improve in the next one. And so he says that being a sponge is not only about soaking up, but also about releasing to help others grow. Should we jump into the next chapter? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Uh, chapter 3, The Imperfectionists.

So this one, this one, uh, I, I'll, I'll just, I, I think this chapter really resonated as a lawyer because one of the things we get paid a lot of money to do and we get trained very heavily on, especially when you're at a big law firm, is to have everything perfect. I mean, as a junior attorney, I spent hours making sure every page, the alignment was properly— is it justified versus right justified? Are there two spaces after every period? Any stray commas, all these little details you do, and attention to detail is that everyone says like, that's the trait of the most successful junior attorney. And I understand why, right? Because if you can pay attention to the details when you're starting out, you're going to make sure you capture the big things and you're going to earn the trust of your clients. With that said, having been on the other side where you're hiring law firms, you know, you realize like, hey, you're billing me thousands and thousands of dollars on all these little details. And are those imperfections we can live with? At the end of the day, what matters is the big picture items, the things that will impact my business, impact my transaction. And lawyers sometimes get really bogged down by the little details. They'll spend hours negotiating little provisions that really don't have major impact. And so I know a lot of my fellow lawyers will probably disagree with me on this, but I think that chasing perfectionism actually makes you a less successful business attorney. When you're supporting corporations, they want someone who is okay with living with some imperfections. And I love that this chapter talks about that, that if you want to unlock your potential, you have to learn to live with some imperfections. And the world's best, he gives some tremendous examples, But some of the world's best, most successful architects and other people are people who learn to live with imperfections. And I think that, yeah, as a professional in the space, it really resonated.

Some of those examples that he gives, I agree. I mean, they were really cool. One of those is he talks about a man named Tadao Ando, a man who grew up in Japan in the 1940s. He wasn't able to afford— he was living in poverty, so he wasn't able to afford college. So he did odd jobs. He would borrow books from friends. He would draw buildings, and eventually he studied enough to get himself a license. Um, so he talks about— I'm sure many of you guys have heard of the Great Hanshin Earthquake, um, which happened in the city of Kobe. Um, and he had built dozens of buildings in that city on an active fault line. So after this earthquake happened, he went to survey the damage, and he was just devastated, right? Because he thought all of his buildings would have fallen down, and he realized not one of his 35 buildings even had one crack in them. Isn't that crazy?

Not a single one. Yeah, that's crazy.

I want to go see—

after I read that, I was like, I got to look up some of his buildings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They are phenomenal. I definitely want to go see to see one. There's actually one here in the Dallas area, in the DFW. Is it really? There's something in Fort Worth that he did. Um, I forgot what it is. I think— I want to say it's like a museum of some sort. So, uh, if I go, I'll let you know.

No, for sure, for sure. But so he talks about how today Ando is the only architect to ever win all 4 of the field's most prestigious prizes. And he says, uh, that Ando is great because he has let go of the illusion of perfection. So he knows what to prioritize and when to settle. Um, and Adam Grant says that the more you grow, the better you know which flaws are acceptable. So that was really cool, you know. Um, you just talked about a little bit about how, um, being a lawyer and which flaws are acceptable in being a lawyer, right? Like, will it really change so much if you have two spaces, right, on accident? Um, and I think that's That's very valuable in all fields, right? Even being a student, like a high schooler that I am now, right? What's the most important thing to prioritize? Is it more important to make sure I get that right test score or is it more important to make sure I'm really learning from what I'm doing? So Grant talks about not ever lowering your standards, right? To settle for those inadequate results, right? When we say, Perfectionism is needed— that, sorry, when we say that perfectionism is what we should strive for, that's what he doesn't want us to do because it's a goal that's impossible. He says perfectionism lowers your self-esteem every time you do something that is not impeccable, a trait that eventually hurts more than it helps.

Yeah, I have to jump in here. I mean, I love this part. When he talks about what straight-A students get wrong. So I'm a straight-A student. I was valedictorian, top of my class, killed every standardized test, you know, got A's in college and all of that, even law school, top 10%. And man, when he started talking about it, and as I was reflecting, it's perfect, right? Because, hey, I shouldn't say the word perfect, ironic here. But he talks about how, Our whole education system is based on this idea of these perfect transcripts and we chase these A's and high test scores. And yet in the real world, that doesn't lead to translate to success. And that's because in the real world, there is no A to get. There is no 100%. And being a perfectionist and chasing that, you're chasing the wrong thing and it doesn't drive and give you the skills that you need to deal with struggles or failures. And, and, um, he says that when you're chasing these flawless results, you get 3 things wrong, right? First is you're obsessing about details that don't matter. You're, you're missing the forest for the trees. Um, the second is that you avoid unfamiliar situations and difficult tasks that might lead to failure because you're so used to the success. Um, I think, um, Malcolm Gladwell talks about this in one of his books as well, where he did this like meta study of like people who were valedictorians that, and how well they did at, at college. Yeah. And outliers. Yeah. Yeah. And outliers. There you go. And so, and, and he, how I, I, a lot of the students at like the top Ivy League schools, the Ivy League schools are obviously collected, it's a collective of top students. And yet Ivy League schools, you have people who drop out, who fail. And it's because of this, right? Like they're now suddenly in this unfamiliar situation where they're amongst all these really smart people. When they fail, they can't handle that. And then the third is like, you don't learn from mistakes because you're always mad at yourself when you make mistakes. And I think like, you know, this has been, I'm a victim of that. I feel like in many ways I wasn't ready because I had always gotten straight A's and everyone told me like, oh, you become a victim of this perfectionism and the straight A's. And It stunts your growth in so many ways. And I really like what he talks about here that I, I missed the boat on learning to live with imperfection. And now that's something that I'm trying to grow with. But it's been, it's been a rough journey. Yeah.

I mean, even Adam Grant gives a couple of examples of himself in that way, right? I mean, he was also a straight-A student. He would, if he placed second in some big competition, he would get upset instead of being happy for himself, right? And he just, He kind of talks about his own struggles a little bit in that. That brings up kind of— so I read about this a long time ago and I had to re-research it just to kind of jog my memory. But there's this Japanese art of kintsusugi. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but it's basically a process that puts broken pottery pieces back together but instead of merging them with more pottery, it merges them with gold. I think this is just really cool. I don't know, it's— I thought it was amazing just because it highlights and puts beauty in imperfections, right? Would you rather have a normal plain pottery piece or would you rather have one that, yeah, maybe it's a little jagged, maybe it has some cuts here or there, but is lined with gold, right? It just increases the value tenfold. And I thought that was amazing because, you know, they've just learned the value of imperfection and learning to see the beauty in that because I mean, really nobody's perfect, right? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think, I think one thing about entrepreneurship as well, and that's something that I'm thinking about actively right now, that what makes a successful entrepreneur is that they're willing to be imperfect, they're willing to fail and to get back up. And, and anyone will tell you who's a successful entrepreneur, they failed many, many times, and that failure is what led to their final eventual success. Someone like me who's so afraid of failure, you just never start something because you're too afraid to fail. So you kind of stay on a well-beaten safe path and that foregoes opportunities to grow. And that's not— I mean, it's obviously true in entrepreneurship, but it's true in so many areas of life. So yeah, it's definitely something to think about.

Yeah, I mean, just that example you just gave, right? It's not the businesses that try to appeal to everybody, right, that end up succeeding because you can't ever find something that everybody might, you know, need or want. But it's the ones who have a specific niche, who know what they're marketing for and who pursue that, that actually end up succeeding. But, you know, we've talked a lot about this being perfection and don't just strive for that, but, you know, set your own goals. But Adam Grant talks about what to actually do, not just what not to do. He says that the key is to set high standards that you can actually check off, right? As you grow, as you get better, obviously your expectations will grow. But he says that the key is to make sure you set a certain high bar and keep achieving that instead of pursuing an ideal that's not possible. And that's kind of what he talks about here. And an example, you know, from my own life, right? Again, going back to the gym, right? It's the difference between maybe repping till failure, which sometimes you could tend to slack off on, right? If you're having a bad day, if you're just tired, you know, I don't, I know I don't always end up getting it. Versus a high rep count, right? Which to me personally, it's always pushed me to maybe go 2 more than what I think I can do. Yeah, and he kind of finishes out the chapter here with a couple of last thoughts. He says, one, expectations tend to rise with accomplishment, right? My expectations, right, of, you know, right now the stage I'm in getting to a good college, may not be the same as yours, Mr. Gandhi, right? Because you've already gone through that process. Your accomplishment is much, much more because you've already gone through it. Um, and then he says, excellence is not about meeting other people's expectations but living up to yours. Um, this is an example that he kind of correlates with his story of being a diver in the past and getting scored on every dive, not living up to the judge's expectations, and being a perfectionist, he would use— he— it would shame him, right? And he wouldn't end up growing from it. Um, he talks about reflection a little bit. He says that reflecting over time melts that shame and marks your growth. And being kind to yourself isn't about ignoring your weaknesses, it's about giving yourself permission to learn from your disappointments.

I thought that was really cool. Absolutely. And I think what we need ultimately, like, from what— for what my takeaway was, like, what we need to do is accept that flaws are inevitable, right? We're going to make mistakes, and— but they don't prevent life from being sublime. Like, you can be perfect with flaws. And like, he gives plenty of examples. And I think if we focus on life being perfectly acceptable versus perfect, he makes that distinction. And if we pursue high personal standards versus pursuing perfection, you can fuel your growth. And what I think is we need to have grace for ourselves, embrace our shortcomings, don't punish ourselves for those. And then rather than waiting for everything to be perfect, he uses a tech example, right? Call it— we just need to build a minimum viable product and just start doing things. Um, that's what entrepreneurs do in the tech world. You don't wait till the product is perfect. You just make a minimum viable product and you get it out there and you keep iterating and improve it. And that's true in life. Whatever it is we want to do, just get out there, start doing it, and then it'll improve as you go.

Absolutely. Um, and he finishes out the chapter with one, you know, a line that I think it really resonates with me. He says, success is not how much, how close you come to perfection as how much you overcome along the way. And I thought that was just, that was really cool to me. Um, so yeah, that, that finishes the part one of Hidden Potential. We will be back with part 2 soon enough. Thank you so much for joining me, Mr. Gandhi.

Thanks for having me, and, uh, yeah, look forward to the next, uh, conversation. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And, uh, thank you everybody who tuned in. Don't stop learning, don't stop growing, and don't stop changing. Thank you everybody, we'll see you next time.