How To Stop Scrolling (Part 1)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real-life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy! Welcome back to Readers, everyone. Today we're back with another episode, and this time we're interviewing Ruby Raiba, author of How to Stop Scrolling. Ruby, welcome to the podcast. I'm looking forward to this.

Hey, thanks so much for having me today.

Yeah, of course. I mean, before we dive in, we'd love to hear a little bit about your journey. You know, what has led you to this moment? Obviously your career, job, everything you're doing, what even led you to write this book? It's pretty unique, right? So if you could dive a little bit deeper into how your journey's taken you to where you're at and the process of writing this book before we begin.

Sure.

Yeah.

So I don't have a background in psychology or tech. I used to be a high school math teacher before I had kids, and I do think that parenting my young children really made me think about the fact that I needed to crystallize my values in terms of how am I going to approach screens and technology in this really technological world so that I can model and teach and have answers for them when they're asking me questions. So I think that's where it all started, was thinking about how do I want to lead my family? And then I've always had an interest in psychology. And so marrying these two, these two things, the fact that I felt a need to understand and make decisions on how I'm going to go about my life in the world with technology, and then also how it affects us was just so interesting to me. And the more I got into it, the more I realized I might as well just write a book about it. So that's how I got to writing this book.

Yeah, I love it. So today we're going to be diving into the first section of How to Stop Scrolling, where, you know, you help us recognize the problem and take the first simple steps towards actually breaking free from phone overuse. Right now, these chapters kind of introduce us to real people whose struggles have kind of mirrored our own. And they also outline small, practical, easy wins, as you put it, that can have a huge impact. So we'll talk about what makes these early shifts so powerful, why willpower alone often fails, and how you can start reclaiming your attention before, you know, this episode even ends, hopefully. So without further ado, let's dive into Chapter 1. So Ruby, your book opens with Justin's story, right? Now this is someone who you described as definitely on the higher end of phone overuse, someone who you looked at and you were like, wow, I don't know how I'm going to kind of handle this client or how we can overcome this issue, right? Someone with over 3,000 unread texts, an 8-year Snapchat streak, you know, all these things. How do you even begin coaching someone with, you know, that— who's that deep into phone overuse? And you also mentioned how quickly his change also came about. So I'm kind of wondering, what would you feel like were the trigger moments that helped him have that change and how do you feel like you were able to play a role in that?

Yeah, Justin was such an interesting client because I just, I wasn't prepared for what I was about to hear when I, when I got on that Zoom call. Um, a lot of clients that I'd met with previously, they were just looking for small tweaks here and there, and a lot of them had already kind of started this journey and they were looking for the expertise to get to the next level. And then when I got on the call with Justin, um, you know, he had the interest and the intention, but we were starting at literally square one. And the, like you said, the, the, the fact that he had over 3,000 unread texts, he would sleep with his phone under his pillow, just so many things that I had never really seen before. Um, and because I didn't know going in that it was gonna be this severe, my only option was to sort of go with what I had already developed. So, um, even though inside I was a little panicked, I put on a face of it's It's gonna be great. Like, let me walk you through what I usually do. And then when I met up with him 2 weeks later, what was shocking was it worked. And so that really actually empowered me. Like, I am so grateful that I had the opportunity to work with him because it proved to me that my strategies actually work universally for everyone. Um, the same shifts that help someone that are trying to make just, just to optimize their phone use a little bit can also really help someone that has a much more severe situation. So as long as the intention is there and you want to make a change, these, these strategies, they just can really help anyone.

Yeah, I actually want to harp a little bit on that point of as long as your intention is there, right?

Yes.

And I think, you know, I'm someone who can, you know, kind of relate to this as well, right? We all have our so-called 2 a.m. motivation moments where we're like, oh man, I'm going to change my life and I'm going to Stop using my phone as much. I'm gonna start going to the gym and I'm gonna eat healthy and all these things, right? How do you feel like whether that's you working with clients or what you've seen through your research, what early signs actually tell you that someone's truly ready to change that relationship with their phone, right? Whether that's with phone overuse or, you know, just being having too high of a screen time or whatever that is, right? How do you feel like when you look at a client or when you see someone and talk with them, What questions are important for them to answer so that, you know, this relationship really is ready to change versus, you know, a 2 AM motivation moment?

Yes. I mean, honestly, I welcome all motivation, even the 2 AM motivation moment. I would just say that the 2 AM motivation moment, you're more likely to go extreme and say, I'm totally fine, I'm going to delete all my social media, blah, blah, blah. And, and the key is always to remember that you want to keep things sustainable. So any change you make, You want to be asking yourself, could I do this forever? Not can I do this for a week or a month? Because if that's what you're gonna do, you're just gonna resort back to whatever you were doing beforehand. So I, I welcome anyone with any motivation. When I say that they want to make the change, what I mean is that I'm not in the business of persuading people that they should be using their phone less. So if, if there's someone that spends a lot of time on their phone, a lot of time scrolling, whatever, and in my opinion, they could be living a, a fuller, more fulfilling life with less phone use, that's, that's, that's not my business, you know? But if anyone wants to make a change, they absolutely can. But I think having the knowledge of what works, what doesn't work, what are reasonable expectations, that all can be really helpful because chances are you're not gonna have a 180 shift overnight, and that's okay as long as you're making little improvements and adjustments.

Yeah, no, I love it. I think one of my favorite parts of this book is that you're not— you're very realistic about how you want this change to happen, right? Rather than just saying, oh, we need to increase our willpower, we need to be more motivated and more, you know, I think you introduce some very simple, straightforward strategies to kind of limit our phone usage. And one of these is, you know, use the snack analogy, right? Having your phone nearby is is like having, you know, a bag of snacks on your desk, right? What, you know, in terms of it's very easy to reach out, grab something, it's very easy to overindulge. So I kind of want to ask you to dive a little bit deeper in that. What made you kind of come to this conclusion? What are some of the solutions and how you recommend that to your clients or to people reading this book?

Yeah, I mean, I 100% don't believe in willpower as something you should hold yourself to or rely on, that just seems kind of miserable and totally unnecessary. Um, so to me, yeah, uh, peanut butter cups are my kryptonite. Like, if they are in the house, I will eat them. But honestly, I mean, I live in a two-floor house. If they're downstairs and I'm upstairs in bed, really unlikely that I'm gonna get out of my comfy bed and go all the way downstairs to get Peanut butter cups, right? And it's the same thing with our phone. If it is within arm's reach, so that's really a big measure I think is, is your phone within arm's reach? Because people are a little lazy. Like we don't really feel like getting up and getting something. If, if we keep it away from arm's reach, that's gonna make a really big difference. Um, and we're gonna figure out something else to do or we're gonna go without. Whereas if it's right there, it's really hard. So I, for example, I follow my own advice for the most part. I do not sleep with my phone on my bedside table. Occasionally I'm in a hotel or something and my phone is on my bedside table. And how do I usually start my day on those mornings? I scroll. It's really hard, even though it's not aligned with my values. I don't wanna start my day that way, but I'm kind of tired. I don't feel like getting up yet. And so that's what I'm gonna do, you know? Whereas if my phone's not there, I'm just not gonna do it. It's really just that simple.

Yeah. No, I love it. I think that also plays into this concept that you talk about easy wins. Right, like turning off notification, focus modes, things like that. I mean, I'd love for you to expand a little bit on this concept of easy wins, right? How do you feel like that plays into stopping this phone overuse? Obviously, we just talked about one with keeping our phones away from maybe our bedside tables or where we're working. What are some other easy wins that you talk about in this book? How do you feel like you've seen them help people? And how do you feel like— why do you feel like they're more more impactful than just discipline?

Yeah, so there are lots of easy wins. I mean, our phones are set up in a way that makes it very convenient to use them. And so we need to think about why is that happening and how can I offset that? So you mentioned, you know, phone configuration. So there's a lot we can do with our phones in terms of configuration. Um, something that you can do in just less than 5 minutes is go through your notifications and settings and turning off all of the notifications that don't serve you. So think about what notifications do you actually need? What do you really need to react to immediately? Chances are not that many things. Um, another thing that we can do with phone configuration is the use of grayscale. So grayscale, where you're putting your phone on black and white, has been shown by research to reduce phone use by 50 minutes a day on average, which is crazy. And our phones are just so colorful and interesting that we're drawn to them. But if it's on black and white, It's, it's just really not so exciting. Like even checking my email, you know, I don't have the red dot anymore. It's a gray dot and it's just not as urgent. We are, we are programmed to, to really want to get rid of the red dots, whether it's our email or the notification badges. So grayscale's a good one. Looking at your notifications is a good one. The use of focus modes can also help you a lot. Um, so my recommendation is to put your focus modes on a schedule. So if you typically are working from a certain time to a certain time, during those hours, your phone might be on work mode where only phone calls from, say, your kids' schools or, or maybe just phone calls come through. Um, you can, you can use focus modes. There's a lot of ways that we can actually diminish how often and how loudly our phones are calling for us. And I think that's a great way to start. And it's an easy win because there's no willpower required. You know, once you change those settings, your phone's not gonna be attacking you with notifications, and that gives you a little space to breathe.

You talk a lot about this aspect of willpower and how maybe it doesn't really impact your daily life as much, right? Because yes, it can impact you for a little bit. Maybe you'll stick it out for a week, maybe you'll stick it out for a couple days, but at the end of the day, right, True change, true habit formation isn't going to come by just hoping or wishing that it does. I would love for you to expand on this point a little bit. Why do you feel like so many people assume they can just have more willpower rather than just changing that environment? I feel like it's an uphill battle every day. People who feel like, "Oh no, I'm just going to go and I'm going to change these habits by myself." rather than I'm just gonna put my phone in the other room. Why do you feel like people do that in the first place?

That's a great question. I wonder if having a lot of willpower is something that might be related to ego or pride and, you know, feeling really proud of yourself for being able to have strong willpower. And I definitely agree. I think being able to be a disciplined person is great. But do I wanna spend my willpower on phone use? No, I probably want to use it on other things. And so I do think that it can be helpful. And there are definitely differences when you look at the success or fulfillment or happiness of people that can put up with challenging tasks and get through things and stuff. But again, I don't know if you'd want to spend it on the phone use. You know, it just, it doesn't seem like something worth spending your willpower on. But I would imagine that people might tie it to their ego. And the other thing might be that they don't realize just how powerful the phone is, how powerfully the phone is designed to attack our willpower.

Yeah.

It's, I mean, there's just so many brilliant minds and resources put behind making us pick up our phones because people are profiting off of that. You know, our attention is a currency. Um, it's, it's, we, we live in the attention economy where our attention is just as valuable as money. You know, when you sign up for non-premium versions of Spotify or HBO, it's because you're paying less money, but you're spending more attention, which the companies find just as valuable. And so there is real motive behind them making our devices as addictive as possible.

Yeah. And I think beyond habits, right? You even talk about routines, right? Structuring a whole day or a whole evening or nighttime or whatever it is where you feel like you have the most phone usage to not have that much, right? And I think one of the aspects that I'm gonna, I'd love to talk about because it really appeals and applies to me as well is the bedtime habits, right? I feel like, yeah, you know, all day I may be able to stick it out without my phone. There's things going on, there's work to do, there's friends meet, all these things, right? But at nighttime, when I get back to the apartment, you know, all my friends are just on the couch, everyone's scrolling, like, you know, it's a, it's a collective doom scroll session. And it's hard for me sometimes to kind of avoid that. And you, you talk about, you give all these examples of these habits, right? Kind of nighttime drop zone outside of our bedroom to leave our phones outside. You talk about preparing alternatives for bedtime entertainment like a journal or reading a book or things like that. And that makes unplugging before bed actually enjoyable rather than just a sacrifice. I'd love for you to expand a little bit on the impact of some of these routines. Obviously this bedtime one is one I just discussed, but anything else where you've seen people like first thing in the morning or after coming back from work or something like that, where you've seen a high amount of people get into scrolling and how you feel like they can stop that through their routines.

Yeah, it does seem that people like to bookend sleep with scrolling, whether it's in the morning or in the evening, sort of just, um, schedule dependent. So one guy I was talking to, a client of mine, he would scroll for an hour every morning in bed. You know, he would pick up his phone to turn off the alarm and he'd scroll for an hour. And to me, that was a little shocking cuz I have young children, so I don't have the ability to scroll for an hour every morning, but it, it makes total sense. And I said, wait, like, what could you be doing with that time? And, um, this guy Leon, he said, well, I used to play a lot of tennis and I used to work out and I used to run and I don't do any of those things anymore. And so I said, well, if you have an hour that you're scrolling before you start even getting ready for, for work, is that time that you could be spending doing these athletic things that you used to do? And he said, I guess so. And I talked to him, I actually didn't talk to him for a while. I think I spoke to him 3 months later. He wasn't like a super urgent case. And I mean, he seems like a bit of an extreme guy, but he was like, since our last conversation, I have worked out, played tennis, or ran every single morning.

Oh wow.

So that was like, yeah, that was, and it's interesting because, well, I do find that people that tend to have an, more of an addictive personality, it can go both ways. So, you know, they can sway towards the, the unhealthy habits or the healthy. Um, but that was really interesting. And, but I also wanna touch on, so you mentioned that when you get home to the apartment, everyone's scrolling on the couch. So do you live with roommates?

Yeah, I do.

Yeah, I think, um, that makes me just think a little bit about how we react when others are using their devices, because that can also be really challenging. Um, we talked earlier about the attention economy and how our attention is valuable, and I think it can be really hard to want to engage with someone when they're not engaging with you, you know. So You are trying to give them your undivided attention, but they're giving their attention to their phone.

Yeah.

Um, and at the end of the day, when you're tired, you might not feel like reading and you see someone else scrolling. And so you wanna do that. So a couple of things that I wanna mention. One, I'm not saying that you should never scroll. I'm only saying that it should be on your terms. Mm-hmm. Um, and so distraction blockers can be really helpful then. So I use a distraction blocker to help me. It just signs me out of the social media after 10 minutes. So 10 minutes gives me a great opportunity to, you know, I have a lot of friends that I don't live in close proximity to and we might send each other funny reels or something. I can catch up on those sorts of messages, respond, scroll a little bit, and then I kind of got my fix, but I'm done. And then in terms of when your roommates are scrolling, I guess one question I would have for you is what would you want your evening routine to look like? Would it, would it include them? Would it include doing things with them or does that not really matter to you?

Yeah, I mean, I think usually obviously we're all scrolling together or playing a game together or something, but, uh, point is a lot of it just happens on the phone. So yeah, of course I'd love to hang out with them and I mean, they're all my friends, right? So, In that way, I just hope it would be a little less mentally kind of destructive, I guess, by just scrolling for like an hour and a half or something with them or just playing a game or whatever. Like if we were to sit down and play cards, play a board game, whatever it is, at least we would be off the device, right? That we've been on pretty much all day.

Yeah, there's so many great games that you could play. I feel like having roommates feels like such a wonderful opportunity for that, honestly, because so many of us don't get to live with our friends. So I think, you know, if you had like a foosball table or there, there just, there's so much, there are lots of cheaper alternatives too. There's like for a group of younger guys, there might be, I don't know if you've heard of, have you heard of basket head?

No, I have not.

It's so funny. It's really silly. But my husband and his friends played it in college and they still play it today when they get together sometimes. You just attach like a basketball hoop to one person's head and then people take turns like trying to get like red and white ping pong balls in. Like there's just so much that, or cornhole, like there's so many things that would actually be more fun. And I think that's another thing is thinking about what's actually fun. Like what do I want to do rather than thinking I should not scroll, I should do something else. And then in terms of your initial question of how do these routines help? So using our phones before bed, just really isn't great for so many reasons. You know, we, um, the blue light before bed isn't great because it messes with our circadian rhythms. Um, also when you are scrolling, you have no control over what your feed is going to show you. And so you might see just distressing news or something stressful before bed, which can then affect your sleep. Um, how the mood that you're in before you sleep is, can really affect your lifestyle. And that's something that I was listening to a happiness expert talk about a couple days ago, which I found really interesting. But basically there's nothing good that comes from using your phone at night, unfortunately. And you know, if you need to use it a little bit, that's fine. But creating a little bit of a buffer between when you put your phone down and when you actually go to bed is amazing. And same with the morning. I think with the morning, it affects you in a different way. It affects you in a way that you do not start your day out with your own thoughts. You know, I remember when I used to look at the ceiling in the morning and just, I don't know, let my thoughts wander. And they say that boredom is the mother of creativity. We're just, we're losing a lot of opportunity for our own thoughts. And then we're unhappy because we don't know what to do with our lives. But we never spend time thinking about it because we're just scrolling. So I think not just the time, not just the physical effects, but also thinking about how much we lose in terms of our own thoughts and spending time with ourselves is something to consider.

Yeah, I think on that note of boredom, right, I think I heard this really cool quote the other day where someone was talking about today is the best— it's the easiest to do something great, right? And it's also the easiest to do absolutely nothing. And I think that speaks to a lot of, you know, what you make out of your boredom, right? When you're bored, are you just gonna sit there and scroll until, you know, your next class comes up, or your next work project, or your next meeting? Or are you going to, I don't know, create something new or do something that's actually constructive? And, you know, on a slightly different note, I, I want to end this with one last question about when do you actually take that time out to scroll or to just be on your phone, right, without parameters. Now, I understand that it's obviously not a great thing to be doing it, but realistically, everyone's going to do it at some point, right? Every— it's not like everyone's just going to delete all their social medias forever or just never scroll again, right? So I think when it comes to— and I've heard a lot of strategies, right? I've heard one where It's something called dopamine maxing or something like that, where it's like you basically start the day out with no dopamine, right? So you're not on your screen or you're not on your phone scrolling reels or playing games or anything like that all throughout the day. You basically just refrain from that. And I guess what this does is it saves up, I guess, your energy or your attention span or whatever that is.

You have a finite amount of dopamine every day.

Yeah, exactly. And then that gets spent in doing something that's actually constructive, right? Like, like working or studying or whatever it is for work that you need to be doing. And then after that, in the evenings or at night when you're kind of done with all your work, right? And I think this actually makes you a little bit more productive as well, because when you really think about it, how much time is the— is the laptop just almost like a background drop for me to sit there on my phone, right, with my work in the background? And I think the whole point is after you're done with that, then you can kind of scroll as long as you want. Obviously that may be a bit extreme or whatnot, but what kind of strategies have you found to not only limit the scrolling, but to intentionally place it as a part of, I don't know, your routine or a part of your day to where you limit overuse, but you're also not entirely cutting it out to, you know, which is just for a lot of people, unfortunately, not a reality that a lot of people can, can do.

Great question. So I think a couple things. First, I will say that it really depends on the person, what your preferences are. I personally also adhere slightly to that of I use less in the morning and as the day goes on, there's, there's more opportunity or more grace in terms of using my phone. So as I mentioned, I usually just scroll for 10 minutes in the evening. Um, but then another thing to take into consideration is your energy levels. So we all have different cycles, daily cycles in terms of our energy levels. And that's one more thing that we are not fully in touch with as much as people in the past used to be. Um, so you can think of your energy levels as red, yellow, green. So when are you green? When are you yellow? And when are you red? And the one thing I would try to do is not be scrolling when you're green because that's just such a waste. And Although we might wish it were not the case, we only have about 3 to 5 really high-energy hours per day. Um, so taking that into consideration and also actually organizing your day as much as possible, as much as in your control within the red, green, and yellow, is also really useful. So you wanna be doing deep work, the work that's challenging, in your green hours. And if you start thinking about it and noticing it, Even without noticing it, you can probably just write down, like, when you think about it, like, when am I just totally with it? When am I so-so? And when am I just red? So in the green hours, you wanna actually be working on challenging things because when you're like ready to go, go, go, and then you're just responding to like emails or something, you're gonna be bored and then you're gonna go check your phone. The opposite is also true. So if when you are in a yellow or a red zone and you're trying to force yourself to do really challenging work that your brain is just not really wanting to do at that time, you're gonna get bored or it's gonna feel too hard and you're gonna scroll. So taking that into consideration and then using your red zones if possible as a time to scroll on your phone is, is something that I would recommend. So looking at your energy levels and thinking about that is useful. But then in terms of dopamine, yes, order does matter. So going from a high dopamine activity to a low dopamine activity is really challenging. So, um, You know, I'm working on my book, writing and editing. Those are lower dopamine. I mean, almost any work that you do is gonna be a lower dopamine activity than scrolling. So if you go from scrolling to working, it's gonna make the work feel really hard. So you might wanna do something like doing the dishes or going for a walk before you work. Then after you work, you can scroll. So that, sorry that that's not like a perfect answer. It's just that there is no one —no, of course, yeah—thing. And I think that's also something that I stress in my book. I'm never gonna say this is exactly how you should do this. You should not be on your phone during these times, 'cause everyone is different biologically. Everyone's different in terms of their responsibilities and what they need to get done. But it really, again, comes back to being sort of reflective. And also one last thing I'll say is that you may, you will need to use trial and error, you know? So I used to not check my emails before writing because I didn't want my brain to be cluttered by the emails. But then I always like wondered if there was something I was missing. So I decided I would check them, then write, and then I'd respond to people. So, you know, it, it takes time.

Yeah. To figure out what works for you.

Yeah.

I, I think it's really important how you introduce the fact that there is no one-size-fits-all, right? Um, it's never gonna be a magic bullet that works for everyone. And, uh, there's no just perfect remedy. Um, but that being said, I think that also induces a sense of, you know, making sure you really think and are intentional about your own phone process and how often you use your, you know, your devices, how often you scroll. And, you know, I feel like this really extrapolates to beyond just the phone use as well, right? Whether that's, you know, a phone, whether that's a video game, whether that's anything that you feel like is either draining you or taking a taking a lot of your time up that isn't constructive to your life being in a better place. I think it's important to think about these things and how we can, you know, implement small habits that will actually help reduce, cut that out, or make time for other things that are more important. And with that, we'll wrap up part 1 of how to stop scrolling. So I had a lot of fun. This is fantastic. Today we learned a lot about how to change our environment. Right? We talked about optimizing productivity and reducing phone overuse. We talked about taking easy wins and why constructive habits will always win over willpower. Now, in my opinion, if there's one thing we can take from these chapters, it's that small intentional changes compound fast, right? Whether you're starting with a single easy win, you know, or just moving your phone out of arm's reach for part of the day, you're creating space for more focus, for more presence. And I think that adds a lot of value to everyone's day. In the next episode, in the next part, we're going to explore on how to actually fill that space we've created with meaningful replacements and why mindset shifts matter just as much as habits. So Ruby, thank you so much for joining us today. This was fantastic. I had a blast.

Thanks so much. I also really enjoyed our conversation.

Yeah. And I'm looking forward to part 2. Until next time, to all our listeners, Keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time.