How To Stop Scrolling (Part 3)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy. Welcome back to Readers, everyone. This is our third and final episode breaking down How to Stop Scrolling, and we are once again joined by the Ruby Riba, author and screen time strategist. Welcome back, Ruby.

Hey, thanks so much for having me again.

Absolutely. I really enjoyed our last few conversations, and today we're almost stepping into what seems kind of like the deepest part of your book, right? If Parts 1 and 2 were about kind of the external change that we go under, whether that's your home, the phone settings, the notifications, Part 3 seems a lot more about almost internal change, right? You talk about identity, values, and the kind of person you become after you reclaim your attention from your devices. Now I'm, I'm really excited for this one cuz this is kind of where everything clicks into place. And I think this is where a lot of people will see the benefits of what you're trying to do outside of just obviously the time that you save. So without further ado, let's dive right in.

Perfect.

So chapter 17, right here, you kind of introduce this idea of techno philosophies, right? And I kind of love this word because you You, you say that everyone already has these internal rules about their phone, but most people don't really ever articulate them. Now, I really would love to hear a little bit more about what this idea of techno philosophies is and what really changes when someone actually writes them down, right? Do you see people often gain clarity, confidence? What, what's the real change that happens there?

Yeah, 100%. So techno philosophies are your philosophies about technology. So we all have philosophies philosophies on different things. We have philosophies on parenting, on friendship, on boundaries, on drugs, on alcohol. You know, we have what we believe is the way that we want to act or live. And so your techno philosophies are just your philosophies, your beliefs on technology. So if you believe that phones should not be at the dinner table, that is a techno philosophy. If you believe it's okay to text at a red light, that's a techno philosophy. There's no I mean, there are some right and wrong, but it's mostly just about what you believe. And a lot of us have these techno philosophies without realizing it. So it's great, one, to actually verbalize those so that you're aware of what they are. But there are other times when we're a little bit more gray. So texting at a red light, for example, that might be something that you never really thought about, and you notice that you do do it sometimes. And then the light turns green and you're still finishing your text, and then what happens there. So then maybe your techno philosophy should be that you don't text at a red light at all because sometimes it has effects that you don't want. So an example I have with a client of mine that I worked with, she wanted to use her phone less when she was out and about. She didn't want to take it out, but she lives in San Francisco. Her boyfriend didn't want her to go on the BART without her phone because he was just worried about danger or just like getting lost or whatever. And so she would just always take her phone with her whenever she went out. And she was like, but I feel like I keep getting these notifications when I'm just trying to like enjoy my time at the farmer's market or whatever. Right. So I said, okay, well, if he's worried about the BART, then can we just draw a clear line and say you take your phone with you when you go out, when you're going to take the BART and you don't take your phone with you if you're not going to take the BART. And it feels really simple. But a lot of times until you actually think about what should my rule be, you don't think of it, even though the rules are often very simple. So she started doing that and then we had a follow-up a couple weeks later and the rule worked really well for her. And what I found interesting was that she said that she realized that she was often taking it with her, even though she knew she wasn't going to take the BART before she made this rule. Because it was almost like an excuse, you know, oh, well, like I might take the BART or whatever. And so she realized that with this, she ended up using it a lot less. So that's one example of isolating a techno philosophy and then applying it.

Yeah, I got you. And you kind of mentioned that something that obviously changes is a little bit more clarity on her end, but kind of expanding that to most people who implement this into their lives, right? Like, let's say I kind of sit down and obviously when I kind of think about it, there's a lot of ways I could change my own, you know, digital use. But what do you feel like from a psychological effect or, you know, from things that might actually apply to other aspects of my life, what really changes, right? Because of course, you know, maybe I would gain a little bit of clarity on like, okay, I use my phone a lot more than I should, or I get more productive than when, you know, I don't have it. But what else do you— what bigger changes do you see in a lot of people who implement this?

I think it also reduces a lot of decision fatigue. So if you notice that you're asking yourself the same question over and over. So with her, it was like, should I take my phone? Should I take my phone? Then creating a rule for yourself can be really helpful. So a personal example for me is I used to, back when my daughter was really little, because she likes TV, I wondered like, should we bring an iPad to restaurants so that like my husband and I can eat literally? And, and every time we went out, I would say, okay, like this restaurant is slow, so maybe we should take an iPad or maybe just crayons are okay, or this restaurant's quick, so we don't need to take one. Like I was, I was solving this problem from beginning to end every single time we wanted to go out to a restaurant. Um, and that's when I realized I needed a techno philosophy. And I decided my techno philosophy very early on was no screens at the table. I just hadn't decided that yet. And so once I made that decision, I wasn't doing this whole song and dance every time we were getting ready to go out for dinner, you know? Um, so that it can also just make you more confident with how you're living your life because you know that the decisions that you're making are based on your values. So like, okay, why might I wanna take an iPad to, to dinner? Maybe so that I could actually talk to my husband or eat food. Like, you know, it makes sense that some people might wanna do that. Um, and so I can see why, but then when I thought about, okay, what are my actual values? Where do I want to get? When I see my family a few years from now eating dinner out, it's not with my kids on devices. And so if I wanna build to that, then that means that I, I wanna start now. And so once I was able to make that decision and understand my why, one, I feel more confident of my choice. So even if there is a time, like now I have two kids at the dinner table and my two and a half year old boy is often like losing it. It's annoying, but it's easier to manage because I know why I'm doing this, you know? And, um, and it saves the, the decision fatigue of every time we go out, should we pack this?

Should we pack that?

No, it's like, go pick a toy from the playroom, you'll bring that. And now I just have a structure in place. So I would say confidence and also it saves time with the, the decision-making itself and the mental load of the decision fatigue.

Yeah. Would you, would you say a lot of these, uh, cuz from what it sounds like, obviously in your own life, it sounds like a lot of these kind of tie back to your own personal values as well, right?

Like, definitely.

If, if that's something you value as a family, as a person, if, uh, you know, open and honest conversation at the dinner table, something you value, maybe phones shouldn't be there, right? Or iPads.

Exactly. Exactly.

So that's— I think that's really interesting. And I think kind of moving on a little bit here to Chapter 18, where you identify your triggers, right? I think you write that every pickup is practice. And I think this is a really cool sentence because it really shows that, you know, you're either practicing focus or you're practicing avoidance. And here, you know, every time you pick up your phone at the dinner table, it's like more and more and more that you're training yourself to that's the way you're gonna eat, right? I mean, there's— right, we literally— my friends and, you know, people around me, like, we call them iPad kids, the people who grew up with iPads and phones at the dinner table and now can't do without them, you know? So, uh, you also explain a lot of different types of triggers here, right? Social, emotional, boredom, transitions, things like that. Can you talk a little bit more about what these triggers really are and you know, when we kind of dive into social triggers, when the people around us actually pick up their phones and we instinctively follow, is that something that's hardwired or can people really train themselves out of that reflex?

So let's start with that. So with social triggers, social triggers are usually when your behavior is influenced by those around you, right? And so we as humans, we do a lot of mirroring. So when you are talking to someone, your body language might literally mirror their language. When they take a sip of their drink, You might take a sip of yours, that sort of thing. And so naturally, when someone pulls out their phone, we, we have the tendency to want to reach for ours as well. I would say that mirroring is pretty hardwired into us as humans. However, once you're aware of the fact, then you have a lot more control, whereas if you're doing it unconsciously, then you have zero control over the mirroring. So I think noticing mirroring in general is very powerful. You know, you might notice that when someone has their arms crossed, you'll cross yours too. But then is that the body language that you want to be giving them? The closed-off, like, unsure, anxious vibe? Or do you want to seem more open and grounded? You can change that. You don't have to follow. And it's the same. The same is true with phone use. So just because someone else is on their phone, it doesn't mean that you need to go on yours. But the first step is actually noticing that mirroring behavior and I also tend to find it interesting to almost take it as a case study. Like when someone else pulls their phone out first, I don't pull mine out. I mean, sometimes I probably do, but I usually don't. And then I also sometimes like to examine their behavior a little bit. And I wonder to myself, oh, like, I wonder why they just did that. Like, was that a notification? Are they feeling bored, etc.? Because sometimes Sometimes it's easier to observe things in others than in ourselves, and then we can apply that new knowledge to ourselves because we tend to be a little more defensive when it comes to our own behaviors. And then in terms of other triggers, yeah, so there's environmental triggers. So that's honestly just mostly for their phones, it's proximity. So if your phone is on your desk and you're taking a break between Zooms, you're probably gonna reach for it. Whereas if you have like a Sudoku book or something else on your desk and not your phone, you'll probably reach for that instead. And Then there's the social triggers that we just spoke about. And then there's also internal triggers. So when you're home alone and bored, you might want to check your phone. If you're seeking connection, then you might wanna check your social media apps. So what's really interesting is that our phone can kind of, we can go to them for almost any of our internal triggers, whether it's anxiety or boredom or loneliness. And that can be really interesting. But then if you are able to actually identify what the trigger is, like, I'm feeling a little lonely tonight, then you can actually call someone or do something that's actually going to help with that instead of tap tapping away, which probably isn't actually going to resolve the root trigger, but is just going to kind of put a Band-Aid on it.

Yeah, I think it's really cool how in the book you emphasize that everyone has unique triggers, right? I mean, of course we all have some similar things. If, if someone else around you is picking up a phone, then, you know, more, you may be more likely to as well. I know for a fact that, I mean, I think we've already talked about this, but every evening in the, in the apartment, right back in college when all the roommates, everyone's just kind of collectively doomscrolling. It's when, if you're still in there and everyone's doing it, and unless you have some important work to finish up, It's pretty likely that, you know, me or everyone else in there is probably going to get wrapped up into it. But now that you mention it, obviously it's something that kind of comes to mind, but for everyone else, I'm sure I have a lot of other triggers and a lot of other times where I pick up devices or do other things that maybe don't give off the impression or don't— where I'm not essentially in control of my actions as much as I would like to be, but it's almost hard for me to think about them without me you know, being in them and someone bringing attention to it. So for anyone out there, you know, who's thinking maybe I resonate with this, maybe I don't resonate with this, but I know that I do have triggers, what's a practical way someone who's listening right now can actually start mapping those personal triggers and start to take action? Is it, you know, journaling, tracking, something else? How do they really bring it to attention? Because you mentioned, right, that it's a lot more likely that after it comes to your mind that after it's something that you're paying attention to, you can actually begin to make changes. But until then, it's, it's pretty hard to do.

Yeah. I mean, I think it— the first thing is just to sort of be kind to yourself and be gentle with yourself and give yourself grace because it can take some time. But to rest assured that it can often sort of accelerate. I think the beginning can be the toughest part if going from like zero awareness to some awareness is the hardest step. And then once you have some awareness, it starts to really mount up more quickly because you start to recognize patterns. I also would say that, um, it's never too late to notice something. So even if you just scrolled for 2 hours, you don't have to notice it when you're picking up your phone. You know, you could notice it later and say, wait, what happened there? And that's, that's still gonna help you. To ultimately start noticing as you're picking up your phone or before you're picking up your phone. So I would say just any level of awareness at first is really helpful. Um, and then knowing the types of triggers, you know, external, internal, social, environmental, can also help because then you actually know what you're looking for. Whereas if you're just like vaguely being like, what are my triggers? It's, it can be harder. Um, so yeah, I would say one, to familiarize yourself with the types of triggers that you might be susceptible to, and then two, to give yourself a lot of grace. And sure, yeah, I mean, you could write them down. Anything that makes them more explicit to you, whether you're just talking it out to yourself, like, "Oh, I just noticed that I did that," or whatever, then bringing it from the unconscious to the conscious is what we're really working on. However that, that, however that might look like for you.

Yes, essentially whatever your reflective process looks like.

Yeah.

Um, I want to talk a little bit about something you mentioned, I think from my last question, where, um, we were talking about social triggers, emotional triggers, things like that. And you, you talk a little bit about the mirror effect, right, where our phone becomes a reflection of our emotional state. right? Whether we're anxious, we're bored, we're lonely, you know, overstimulated, things like that. You mentioned a lot of people may pick up social media if they feel like they need connection at the time, things like that, right? I think even for someone like myself, right, I obviously, I'm sure I do the same things, but oftentimes it's hard to tell why I'm actually picking the device up, right? It's easy for me to sit here and say, you know, phone use is bad and and, you know, all of this is— I shouldn't be doing it as much and all. But realistically, there's going to be a lot of times in my life where the phone's around me and where I'm susceptible to just picking it up and doing something, right? Or spending a lot of time on it. I think when I, when I think back to those own moments and when I reflect on it, how do I know whether I'm or someone else's? And, you know, I guess you can probably answer this well because you have to deal with this with clients, right? How can you tell when someone's picking up their phone just because Oh, I really need to do something. I need to respond to this text. I need this information. Or rather because, you know, they're avoiding discomfort or they're facing a little bit of loneliness or, you know, they may be anxious or things like that. Like, how do we really, you know, kind of reflect on that and grow from it? Because oftentimes I never associated my emotional triggers with picking up a phone, right? I just, it was always just like, okay, the notification rang or something, time to pick it up.

Right. I mean, I think with this, I encourage people to trust their gut a little bit. So if you feel like you are just picking it up, so you just mentioned that you usually pick it up if there's a notification, right? And not because, and you don't feel like it's due to an internal trigger, then I kind of trust you. And that's probably true. And maybe you are satisfied with your, like, level of phone use, then that's fine. Or maybe even if it's not internal triggers, it is because of the notifications and you feel like you get too many notifications, then you can decrease the number of notifications you get. Um, when it comes to is it due to emotional triggers, I think usually if they are, if someone is honest with themselves, they know that that's true. Like, I went on a podcast, um, with someone who had previously been, um, an addict, and she said that she feels like she is now sometimes replacing with phone use, what she used to use for. And so there I trust her, you know, like if you feel like it is filling a hole, then it probably is. And then in terms of— so that's a little different from the mirroring of others, right? So if you're just mirroring others, then it's not necessarily because you feel something, but it's just because other people are doing it around you. And so I don't know if that answers your question, but I, I think that the, the person that knows why they're picking up their phone the most is themselves.

Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. And, and I feel like kind of as a follow-up, because this is what I really wanted to know, is once you kind of know why you're picking it up or, you know, the real underlying emotional reasons or mental reasons behind that, how does that truly play into your change or, or fixing those habits, right? Because maybe I know that, okay, I post a lot of stories on Instagram or something like that, and I often check to see how many people like them or commented because maybe I crave loneliness at some points in my life, or I supplement, you know, use with phone use or something like that. But once I know that, you know, what difference does that make to my life? How can I implement that or transform it into real change?

Okay. So first, let's start with that specific example, and then I'll also give a personal example. So if you're posting and you wanna check for likes and comments. First, I want to preface with that's very normal. You know, like literally these apps have been designed that way because we as humans crave validation from others. And so it's really, really normal to wanna check. Usually every time we check though, it's like, it's variable reward, right? So sometimes you get some, a lot of likes, sometimes you don't, and that's what gets you to keep checking. And first I would think about how do I feel I check? Like, do I feel great? Do I feel on top of the world? Or am I often disappointed? And to sort of kind of check in with myself in terms of how worth it are these checks. And then you might create a techno philosophy here because you might say, okay, like I'm gonna check my socials twice a day or something because I enjoy checking them, but it feels intrusive or disruptive if I'm checking them like every 5 minutes. So I think thinking about How does this affect me? What are the positives and negatives? And what style or frequency of checking is actually gonna serve me the most? And then trying that out. And then another thing I'll, I'll throw in is to remember that oftentimes when we set up new rules and structures for ourself, we're not gonna hit it out of the park the first time. You might say, okay, twice a day and say, actually, I think I need 3 times a day. And that's fine. That doesn't doesn't mean you did anything wrong. You're learning every time. You're changing the way you do things. And I can also give a personal example. So I feel like right now, I had a baby less than 3 weeks ago, and it puts me in a bit of an anxious state because I have the 2 other kids too. So I'm always like, am I missing something? Did I forget that today my daughter needs snow pants or whatever? Because I just now have more variables going on in my life. And so I do feel like my anxiety has gone up a little bit. And how I see that play out in my phone use is I'm checking my email all the time because I'm always like, oh, did I miss something? You know, so it's a very like, it's a logical kind of response to how I'm feeling. But checking my email all the time like isn't helping me at all. And sure, I could approach it in the, okay, I'm going to check my email twice a day sort of thing. But I also think it's helpful to slow down a little bit and think about the root cause in this situation and think, okay, so like I'm feeling a little bit less settled than usual. I'm feeling a little more anxious than usual. What are the things that can fill that for me? So I think for me, honestly, taking some time away from being connected helps with that. Reading helps me with that. A little bit of exercise helps me with that. So thinking about what it— so here, the trigger for the increased phone use is increased anxiety and thinking about how can I manage my anxiety? Then my anxiety will go down and then that means the unnecessary phone pickups will, will go down also.

Yeah, I love it. That's so cool. I think one of my favorite parts about this section, as we kind of wrap up here, I have, you know, one more question, but something I kind of love about this section is how you frame scrolling, phone use, uh, and a lot of these triggers as more than just habits, right? You frame it almost as a reflection of your identity and the person you are. You write how attention is becoming tied to who we are becoming, right? And not just what we're doing at any given moment. And, you know, as a final kind of wrap-up here, I want to ask you, reflecting back on your journey, not just as, you know, a screen time strategist or an author, obviously you've seen a lot of client transformations, things like that, but even in your own life, right? As a mother, once, people change their environment, right? Their phone settings, and now almost their sense of identity, because you do have to really reflect on, you know, who you are and what emotional triggers, things like that, that we just talked about in order to change these other aspects of your habits. What transformations have you really seen, or what transformations have you personally seen in your own life, right? Because I think when I noticed that I took my phone out of my life, for example, right? I, I think I mentioned in the first episode, but during my second semester freshman year of college, right, I took a lot of credit hours and I, you know, deleted all of my social medias and games and essentially anything that might be taking up too much of my time. And obviously the only purpose of that was to save time. But I think along with that, it also made me a lot more aware of my surroundings, the people who I was hanging out with, the friends who I prioritized in my life, and maybe people that, you know, I pushed to the side because, you know, did I really need them if I had Instagram open on my phone, you know? And so I think those are some of the changes I definitely saw, and that was just in like a, I don't know, a 3-4 month period. For someone who's been doing this as long as you have and someone who's obviously written a whole book on it, what true identity transformations have you seen either from other people or in your own life? Life?

So for me personally, I think that I've gotten to know myself better. So we are— when we're constantly connected, we're just so plugged in and we are consuming so much content. And when I spend less time on my phone, I spend more time in silence. Like, I really value silence. I think that that's such a precious commodity, and I try to make sure I have time for silence. At least a little bit in the morning and in the evening, even if it's just 5 minutes. And during that time, my mind wanders and I can have internal dialogues and I actually get to know myself and I think, oh, that's interesting that your brain is going there, that's what you're thinking about. And so I honestly really feel that I've reconnected with myself while having less time on my phone and I really value that and it helps me understand what I actually value, what I actually want, you know, versus when I'm spending a lot of time-consuming.

I—

you're, you're getting, you're getting pushed with advertisements and influencers and all this stuff, and you kind of lose your own identity a little bit, and it's very easy to just kind of follow what's being fed to you. So I would say that it really has, for me, given me a sense of my own identity, and I enjoy spending time with myself. And, um, I think I've noticed that with, with others that I've worked with too. I, I think that people just tend to become a little bit more independent and unique when they spend less time plugged in.

I love it. I think absolutely. I mean, I, I think this whole book and especially this part of the book, which I really enjoyed personally reading and just talking about, It really reminds me of this Mahatma Gandhi quote. You know, we used to have it in the wall of my high school, so we read it all the time. But basically it says, your beliefs become your thoughts, your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, actions become your habits, habits become values, and your values become your destiny, right? And I think a lot of—

Totally.

You know, up till this point, right? It is like, okay, this is another book on why I shouldn't use my phone or why, you know, our phones are slowly killing us or all these crazy things that you hear. I think when you really dive deep into what it truly means or emotionally or why your values are being reflected in your phone use and why that's something that you keep going back to, I think you learn a lot more about yourself through that process. And that's kind of why I wanted to ask you that final question there.

Yeah, thank you. No, I feel like you really understand where I'm trying to get with that because that is why I feel like it's so important. A lot of people are like, ah, whatever, like an extra 30 minutes here and there. And it's like, No, because that 30 minutes every single day is turning you into who you are. And do you want to be that person or don't you want to choose who you're going to be? You know? So that's where my frustration lies. Because we have this one life and sometimes I want to shake people and say, you should be living it, you know? So I agree. Thank you for bringing up that quote.

I think this has been a really powerful conversation. Ruby, thank you so much for kind of joining us today, taking us through the identity layer, right? The techno philosophy. The triggers and kind of ultimately the transformation that happens when someone really claims that ownership of their own attention. And, you know, to all of our listeners, you've now completed parts 1, 2, and 3 with us. You've redesigned your environment, you've quieted your digital noise, and hopefully by now you're, you're kind of inspired a little bit more to ground everything in your own identity, right? And think a little bit more about what that means. You know, hopefully you're not just using your phone differently, but you're becoming someone who directs their focus within. A little bit more intention. So Ruby, once again, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed all of our conversations.

Absolutely. Likewise. And, you know, just before we kind of close this out, I want to give you a quick chance to plug the book. Where can readers find this? See a little bit more of your work, things like that.

Yeah. So you can find me at howtostopscrolling.com. My book will be out in March of 2026. But in the meantime, if you drop your email into my website, howtostopscrolling.com, I have a weekly newsletter on Wednesdays where you get practical tips and stories from readers and clients.

Yeah, that's awesome. So to everyone tuning in, please check this out. Highly, highly recommend, um, especially everyone, you know, who may be in college right now and doom scrolls a little too much. Uh, but to everyone tuning in, we'll see you next time. Stay tuned for our next book, and until then, keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time on Readers.