The Mentorship Edge: Creating Maximum Impact through Lateral and Hierarchical Mentoring (Part 3)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real-life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy! Welcome back to Readers, everyone. Today we are once again joined by Ms. Deborah Heiser, developmental psychologist, founder of The Mentor Project, TEDx speaker, and author of The Mentorship Edge. Welcome back to the podcast, Deborah. So glad to have you back.

Thanks for having me back. It's great to be here.

Absolutely. And in the last episode, we discussed a lot of different things, right? We discussed different mentorship styles. We talked about hierarchical and lateral mentoring. We even talked about mentorship in the workplace. Today, in this part, we're going to start by diving a little deeper into the future of mentoring. You know, in Chapter 9, you start off with when you think of a mentor, really, like what kind of comes to mind? You think about a very invested mentor, right? You think of Mr. Miyagi and Daniel LaRusso, right? You think of Yoda and Luke, you think of Rocky and Adonis. And the thing that you start this chapter off with is that more often than not, these mentorship examples seem to involve a very invested mentor who the mentors see daily, who push them physically and mentally. But what you talk about is What does the future of mentoring actually look like, right? With today, with virtual services like Zoom, like Skype, we're able to meet people without seeing them in person. Today we can share information through videos, meet new people online through virtual forums. So, you know, my first question to you today is, do you, first, do you believe that these technological advancements actually strengthen or weaken the future of mentorship? And if they strengthen it, how can someone like myself use them to my advantage?

Well, we have something that's, you know, modern mentoring, which we, because of technology, have so many new opportunities. So these new opportunities like podcasting and other things that get us connected virtually are amazing. It's kind of— I think of it like telehealth. Should we be happy we have it? Yes. Is it as good as going in person? No, but would you give it up? Probably not. So we're seeing a new change with so much going virtual, and mentorship is on that bandwagon with people getting connected with people around the world in new ways and receiving information and mentorship in new and different ways, like through podcasts, like in other online forums where people aren't necessarily meeting in person, but the mentee is feeling meaningfully connected with what is being provided by the mentor. So if a podcast listener is really connected with the podcast and they listen all the time and they get information and it helps them to grow, that is a modern form of mentorship. And should we get rid of that? No, we should grow that. We should expand upon that. We should let people know that this is a new way that we can get this available to us so that more students and others can access it around the world?

Sure. I feel like one of the biggest new strengths in today's world, right, is the fact that we're able to not only connect with and be able to meet virtually like this, but we're able to even find mentors and people around the world who are doing things that we would want to do or look up to or, you know, uh, find fascinating, right? You look at a lot of these traditional examples, it happens to be people you just end up walking across, right? You bump into someone in the hallway who's just some sort of a master at something you really want to do, you know? And that's how a lot of these things go. But today we can very intentionally go and seek out people who are doing very well in that certain field or career or anything really. And, and just write to them. You can send them an email, you can do anything. So I guess, you know, talking to someone like myself as a college student, right? Or someone who's in high school or even someone who's in a career, someone who wants to get better and explore more and has found someone who they would love to look up, who they look up to and would love to learn from, what would you say is a tool they could utilize to actually reach out to them and undergo a sort of a mentor-mentee process to where it's an actual intentional process that the two are going through? You know, there's obviously cold emails, there's, you know, your LinkedIn messages and all these things, but what have you found to be a very effective mode of that kind of communication?

It's really all about connection. So it's even like the way that you and I got connected. We were both on a similar platform, and that got us to be able to connect. And that was through an email. Hey, I'd like to meet. And there was a response. So connecting on platforms is a great way. You know, you can go to a vetted platform that you know is— has a good reputation. But reaching out by email is usually the way that most people do it, or messaging, direct messaging within the app or the program. So if you are into blogging and you're on Substack, they have made it so easy to connect with others through notes, through other channels. You can do this in your own company. You can do this at your own university. You can do this wherever you are. But it really does mean that you just have to reach out and connect in whatever way that platform or individual is putting out their expertise.

Sure. I feel like one of the things you kind of also mentioned in this book is the fact that you can change yourself and how you approach people and certain situations. But as a result of you doing that, you also end up shaping the culture of a place, right? You actually say, and I kind of want to move into chapter 10 here because you open with a really great paragraph that kind of builds on what you just said. You say, Mentorship transcends individual interactions. It embodies an exchange of meaning, passion, and motivation. Mentorship takes expertise honed by one person and passes it on to another, often extending its impact. This dynamic process isn't just confined to personal growth; it permeates and shapes cultures as well. Whether in our communities, workplaces, families, or friendships, mentorship catalyzes change, propelling us towards new horizons and collective growth. And I feel like, you know, that's kind of a perfect way for you to put what mentorship truly is, even more than just a one-person connection or a one-person conversation that we have may have had. It's more than just a conversation or an exchange of knowledge. It is bouncing ideas and experiences and combining real knowledge that two people may have. And, you know, increasing that for both the individuals. I mean, even if you're the mentor rather than the mentee, they always say, right, that the best way to learn is by teaching someone else.

Yeah.

And kind of building on this, you mentioned that mentorship shapes a culture, and you also say that culture initiates motivation. So can you expand a little bit on the relationship between the three and how to leverage each in order to empower the other?

Well, you know, this is something that is— most people think of mentorship as really a thing in a tunnel, like you just go and you get mentored. But it really does shape cultures. Think about it. Have you ever gone into a building whether it's at your university, where you work, or anywhere, and you walk in and somebody lets the door slam right on you as you're walking in, you automatically enter feeling a certain way. Imagine yourself in walking down the hall and people smile at you or they say hi. That can change the way that you think or feel in an organization. And some do this really well. And it is mentoring when you're passing down, how you behave in front of others, how you interact with people. You can go into an environment and people are opening the doors for each other. People are smiling at each other as they pass each other in the hall, saying hello. Those sort of things change the dynamic and culture of an entire workplace. It makes it friendlier. It makes it so that people want to actually interact with others. So the way that all of these work together is that if you think about mentorship, it isn't just something that ends with an interaction between another. It makes that person that is being mentored in some way do something that then impacts others. So if we're getting mentoring from the top, you can change how the entire culture of an institution works. I've seen this where I teach. I teach at a university. And I've talked to the students. And I've said, this is the friendliest, university I've been to. I come in and people will hold the door. And if I'm not close— and it's not just me, it's others— they'll hold it. And, you know, I rush to go make the door and I say thank you. But that's not just one person. That's a culture that's there. And that makes a big difference when we're interacting and going places. So mentorship can really be a critical factor in making big change culturally in places.

Sure. I feel like, you know, when you talk about this, it kind of makes me realize that I guess your whole theory is mentorship isn't just a direct exchange of information or knowledge, right? To some extent, it's also the small discrete things that someone might do when having a conversation. The fact that, you know, they apologize when they do something, you know, that might have caused a little bit of, you know, harm to someone else, even if they don't have to, right? The fact that they would hold the door open for you, the fact that they would wave when you walk in the door, right? These small things that really do change the culture of a place. You know, you look at certain cities and you feel like, oh, these people are just nicer here. And that's not just because, you know, the air is sweeter or something, but because they've, you know, whether that's by coincidence or by a conscious effort, they've created a certain culture in that area. And I guess all of that falls under the umbrella of mentorship. You know, moving forward—

Mentorship is modeling.

And I feel like people would find that even more appealing, right? Rather than someone telling you to, hey, you know, you need to start doing this work or you need to become better in this way. If you see someone else doing that, right? I feel like that's a great, I mean, as a sibling, you know, I know I've heard that a lot of times from my parents. And, you know, on that note of siblings and family, right? Moving forward, you bring up the points of, family, friends, and community, and how all of these can benefit from mentorship. Here, you know, I kind of want to close this chapter 10 with a few words that you wrote that resonated with me. You said, mentorship has a profound impact on shaping cultures within various contexts, from professional environments to communities, family, and even friendships. It fosters learning, collaboration, and empowerment, creating a positive ripple effect that extends beyond individual relationships. Which is kind of exactly what we just talked about.

Yeah.

So, you know, by now I'm sure most listeners here are probably curious about all the mentorship opportunities out there, right? But at the same time, they might be a little confused on how to actually become one or seek one out, right? After all, every Luke doesn't find his Yoda and every Daniel doesn't find his Mr. Miyagi, right? And here you kind of bring us through a 3-step process. And step 1 is identify, to look around at your social, personal, and professional life to introspect about what you need to grow in and what others around you are proficient in. To find a mentee, it's a pretty similar process, to look around and identify potential individuals who you would be of assistance to. So I want to ask you, do you have any more specific tips for people in this initial stage of mentorship, still seeking their mentor or mentee? Where should they begin to look, right? How do they know what to grow in? And how do you actually find someone proficient in that particular area?

First of all, it's as simple as looking left and looking right. You probably have people in your circle who could mentor you or who you could mentor. And most of us overlook that all the time. We don't realize how many people are around us who help us without us realizing it or who we help without realizing it. Some of my strongest mentors are the people who I'm closest friends with. They have skills that I don't have. And I don't even hesitate to call and say, hey, can you guide me through this? I'm not a techie. I ask my great friend and mentor, Jen Snow, can you help me? I need some mentorship in this area. She knows it, so I ask her. So start there. The next thing, though, that you can do for identifying is look around just beyond your immediate circle. Who else do you see doing things that you like? Who is it that you say, I want to be like that person or do what that person is doing? Or who has a skill that is something that you really need? Start looking there. And most people are really receptive to help others. So say, hey, I'm now seeing people all around me in a new way, ways in which I can help them and ways in which they can help me. That's the first part, which is identifying. And you'll find that you have a lot of people. And you can broaden that out as far as you want. Go to networking groups. Go to online forums, go to companies, you know, use AI to help you find the people that are outside of your circle that you don't even know that you can identify as potential people who could be mentors.

Sure. I feel like when you're looking within that immediate circle or even out right outside that, one of the things you mention in your book is to look at people who aren't just adept at a certain skill set, but also people who live their lives or have habits which, you know, you want to have or embody in your own life. Right? We, you know, these skill sets and things like that will come as you work on it more. But I feel like the people who you look at who are always growing, who are always embodying this sense of continuous improvement, or always learning something new about that specific sect of whatever you're interested in, I feel like those are the people who would be some of the best mentors.

Yeah.

And I feel like actually a step one, even before the step one, is to be able to, and you kind of went over this a little briefly, maybe because it's so natural for you, You know, but that step one really has to be putting aside your ego, right? To, you know, whether that's your friends or whether that's other people around you to be able to put aside that ego and be like, hey, you know, you're, you're someone who's, who's better than me at this right now. And you're someone who I look up to in this way. And I'd love your support. And I feel like for a lot of people that might honestly be the hardest part of that process. You know, and moving on from step one, Step 2, you say, is to assess, right? So once you have a potential list, the next step is to look at each individual and see how their strengths complement your weaknesses. What practical application does each mentor possess that complements your unique skills and skillset? And I also kind of have a similar question for this step. How would you recommend going about making such a list, right? Would you recommend keeping separate lists for different areas of your life? Should I aim for mentors that I previously have a connection with or for complete strangers? What would that tier list kind of look like?

So what I like to tell people is that you should be always building your, you know, contact list. You know, we used to call it a Rolodex in the olden days when I was younger. Now it's a contact list. That's your LinkedIn. That's your, you know, maybe it's just your contact list in that you keep in your emails. Start to make that grow because you don't know if that person is going to be someone who can help you down the road. Or if you're going to be able to help them down the road. So in the book, like, I talk about Charlie Camarda, who was in space and needed to call upon somebody from his contact list. That was really important to him. And we find ourselves in situations all the time where we say, oh my gosh, I'm in a pinch, I'm in a bind, or I have something that's pressing that I have to get done right now. And if you've already identified a lot of people, all you have to do is go through that and assess Who has the ability to help me right now? It doesn't have to be life and death, but most of the time when we have something that we have to get done, it feels that way. And once you've identified people and put them in a contact list, then you can assess them and say, ah, I'm— I know this person here has this skill. It then is like a relief, a weight off your shoulders. It feels like a lifeline when you're doing that.

Sure. You know, when you think about looking at a potentialist, assessing, and even look, reaching out to certain mentors. I guess my first question that kind of comes up, right, is I have people around me that may be good at something that I want to become good at, that may possess certain qualities or have certain habits or be good in a certain field. But, you know, do you feel like it's better to have a mentor who is in that immediate radius, who you know is almost like a safe space for you that you have a connection with, um, or are building a connection with? Or would you rather reach out, be more vulnerable, and reach out to someone who's kind of more at the pinnacle of that field, even if it means you don't already have an initial connection with them?

I say all, all of the above, always. So you need to reach out to the top person sometimes because that person is gonna be the biggest help. What's the worst thing they're gonna do? Are they gonna come knock on your door and say, how dare you reach out to me and say, hey, I'm impressed with what you do and I'd like to learn from you. No, the worst thing that they'll do is say no. So go for that. That does not guarantee mentorship. There may not be any meaningful connection there. You may not trust them. They might not trust you, but give it a shot. So your trusted inner core, you already know you have. Go as far out as you absolutely can. And yes, reach for that top person. The worst thing they'll do is say no. Or you'll have that connection for later when you have a specific question for them. Sure.

I guess, you know, kind of building on step 2, obviously, you know, moving a little bit into step 3 here, right? Which is create. You say in this step, you're able to leverage your mentor to reach new heights, make more progress, right? But I kind of want to build on step 2 a little bit here and ask a question about step 3. How does that step, you know, from reaching out and having a mentor to actually building on your own skillset, what's, the bridge there? You know, do you feel like there's a contract or a set of promises required? Do you recommend setting deliverables or expectations? How should I even know the right questions to ask? Or how do I facilitate this relationship to mean more than someone I just meet maybe once a week or a month for check-ins? How do I actually begin making progress? Because there's really no guidebook on that.

There isn't, and there shouldn't be. It's like making friends. You're asking all the right questions because this is what makes people scared. Spirit of mentorship. Because when you're being mentored, the true mentorship that has been taking place for centuries has not been in the workplace, which is where most of us think it is. It's been in our religions. It's been in our culture. It's been in our traditions. Right? So you don't think, oh, am I going to have to go make an appointment to talk about our next holiday and what we're going to be doing? No, you just do it. And you pass down to the next person the things that you liked. And that you think that they'll enjoy too, right? You don't even think about that. So what you do is you think about these connections that you're making, which is the third part, into something meaningful for you. And that is that you have to feel like this is somebody that is going to be helpful to you, that you like, that you trust. They have to embody all of those 5 principles, right? And when you have that, it shouldn't feel forced. You don't have to— mentorship doesn't mean a weekly meeting. It could mean, can you save me while I'm in space? And then you don't need to call them again. Or it could be like LaTanya Kilpatrick. I met you at a conference. I know I haven't talked to you in, like, 6 months, but I have a question. Can I pick your brain? And then that dialogue opens. The person could have said no, and then there's no mentorship there. But in the case of LaTanya Kilpatrick, she said yes. And LaTanya went ahead and was mentored by her. So it means asking the question, hey, can you give me help with something I need right now? If you say to somebody, I want to set up a lifetime of mentorship with you being my mentor, that feels like you're getting into an arranged marriage. And there's a lot of pressure with that. You want to leave it just like you are with making a friend. Hey, I like hanging out with you. You want to try this again? Okay, great. And then you just take it from there. So take away all the pressure with it and just make it, I have nothing to lose here, only something to gain.

So you would say actually that rather than making it more structured and actual very concrete things like deliverables or promises or contract or different things like that, regular meetings, you would actually say let that be as open and as kind of abstract as you want it to be to make it more than just, you know, more than like a teacher-student type relationship and more of like a friend who just happens to know something you don't?

So you can do that. And I have done that on occasion, but it does, it's not the first thing I do. So if I'm meeting an advisor at college, if I'm a student, I have, I'm gonna say, here's when I wanna meet and there's structure to that, right? But that's that person doing their job. They're not my mentor. They're doing their job. Now, if I'm a mentor to somebody, I may say, you know what? We're working on a project. We better be meeting regularly so I can help you with this project. Let's meet because we have a specific goal in mind so that I can help get you there and guide you there. But if you don't know what questions you're asking yet, which most people don't, we don't know what we don't know. We just want to learn from somebody. We can come in with some specific questions, like Irene in the book, who said, I need to get the lay of the land of this company. Can you tell me? And so she set up one meeting. Then that turned into regular meetings with this person because they had a relationship that worked. And then Irene realized she needed to learn a lot more. And this person was willing to help her in areas that she didn't even know yet. So it can then become structured. But we want to make sure when we're going into mentoring environments that we are not making it so it feels like a job, because that will make us feel like it's a burden. And we won't be intrinsically motivated to be involved in that interaction.

Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like in every situation, there's no— concrete guidebook that needs to be laid out, that there's no one-size-fits-all, right? In some circumstances, people might want a very professional, almost, relationship, um, and then some people might just want an abstract thing that, hey, whenever I need some support or whenever I feel like I'm confused or stuck, feel free to reach out to me and I'll always be there for you.

Yeah.

Um, and I feel like that just adds more beauty to that process, you know, moving forward. Through this final chapter, you point out a lot of opportunities that people can actively seek out mentorship opportunities, right? Whether that's networking events, lunches, sports conferences, you know, and you even mentioned that there's a lot of modern methods of mentorship that individuals can utilize. And I know at the beginning of this episode, you know, now that we're wrapping up, one of those things that we talked about was utilizing the internet and current, very, you know, novel new ways of mentorship and finding mentors. And one such method is actually the company that you founded, right? The Mentor Project. So, you know, I kind of wanna ask you to actually expand on that a little bit. I'm sure a lot of the viewers would be very interested in just hearing a little bit about what that is and how that's, you know, ended up being such a novel thing in this space of mentorship.

Well, we made it, we founded an organization based on mentors. People who wanted to give back but didn't have a place to do it. And we found that as often as mentees say they need a mentor, mentors are in need of finding a mentee. So top people in their fields— we have the top 1% in their fields, people have done world-changing things— who are our mentors. And we get students from around the world who say, hey, I'd like a mentor. They come onto our website. It's free. They click become a mentee, and then they can be connected with mentors. We also offer talks and things like that, all kinds of talks to universities and other places so that people can say, oh, I didn't even know that this existed, and they can seek out mentorship from our mentors. So we do one-on-one, we do group, we do, you know, all kinds of virtual events for people, but it's all free. And last year we gave away a little bit more than $3.5 million of mentorship hours from our mentors to our mentees in 5 countries. So we're really finding that this is something people want and need, both mentors and mentees.

Yeah, and I feel like that's a perfect space here for us to, you know, end our series. I know I've done this a few times, but you know, I wanna just, last words here. I wanna close this book out with your closing sentences in the book, which I feel like resonate with your mission statement more than anything I could ever say here. As we conclude, the call to action resounds louder than ever. Let us embrace mentorship as a catalyst for transformation, recognizing its power to inspire, guide, and empower. Committing to nurturing a culture of mentorship We transform every interaction into a chance for growth, connection, and mutual achievement. Let's unite in a mission of perpetual growth, mentorship, and shared influence, sculpting a radiant tomorrow for all future generations. With that, part 3 of The Mentorship Edge comes to an end. Thank you so much for being here, Deborah. I love the book and I love the final ending words too. It is like, I'm getting goosebumps just reading it right now.

Well, thank you. It has been a pleasure speaking with you and speaking with you about mentorship. I do hope that your listeners will check out The Mentorship Edge, but I also am excited to see your journey as you go forward through the university and beyond. So may you have many amazing mentors in your life.

I appreciate that. Thank you for the good wishes. And actually, on that note of our listeners being able to check that book out, I want to just quickly hand it over to you. Would you be able to kind of tell the listeners where they'd actually be able to find the book?

Of course, yes. You can find the book anywhere you find books. It's on Amazon, every other place that you look for books. And if you are somebody who likes to listen, it's available in audiobook as well. So check it out on Kindle, hard copy, or on audiobook. You can get it in any one of those ways from anywhere you buy your books.

Fantastic. Highly recommend. You know, closing words here. Throughout the course of this book, we've kind of, we've talked about, again, a lot of things, right? We talked about all the different mentorship styles. We talked about how mentorship isn't just an individual connection, but actually creates a culture. And, you know, we kind of close this book out with talking about the future of mentorship. So, you know, a big thank you to all of our listeners. A last time, a big thank you to you, Deborah. We loved having you on the podcast. Um, we look forward to our next book, and until then, keep learning, keep changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time.