The Simple Manifesto (Part 2)

Welcome to Readers, the podcast for the lifelong learner. Join us on our weekly dose of wisdom where we talk about the real-life lessons and applications of books. Enjoy! Welcome back to Readers, everyone. Today we're back with Wes Towers, author of The Simple Manifesto, and ready to get into Lens 2. Welcome back to the podcast, Wes.

Good to be back with you. This is a really, uh, one of my favorite lenses actually, so really keen to unpack it for you.

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to it as well. You know, in part 1, we really built the foundation, right? We talked about standpoint, clarity, center, and vision. You know, now we move into lens 2, nonconformist, which is kind of the part where you live that standpoint publicly, right? We'll talk about why, you know, pushback, perception. We'll talk about choosing the right customers, choosing the right people in your life. We'll talk about questioning authority and why the goal isn't always to fit in. It's to build a business. And honestly, for everyone who's listening, just a personal brand that works because you and your business are different. So without further ado, let's begin.

Yeah, fantastic. So the nonconformist aspect, I think it's super important for all of us these days in, in the world, which seems to be increasingly bland in, in business. Um, so knowing what you, you stand for, we covered that last time, the standpoint, but then that little rebel inside of all of us, which, um, you know, have different opinions and perspectives and and to really be just not going with the flow because that's what everyone else is doing, but finding those unique points of view and making your personal brand around that. I think it's super important.

Yeah, so I think you open this part or this lens here with a bit of a disturbingly intense appreciation for the con artist. So I'd love to talk a little bit about what exactly entrepreneurs as well as the average person can learn from this lesson here? Yeah, yeah.

There's, over the course of life, there's various people I've come across and different scenarios where a con artist is able to persuade people in a certain way. Now, none of us want to be unethical. We shouldn't be unethical, but there's certainly principles that we can learn from these scenarios, the confidence, the confidence person. So that they know what their goals are and the intentions are. I mean, when I was first, first employed in a, in a business, in a marketing company in Sydney, it was going along, uh, glowingly well. And, uh, the, um, however, the bookkeeper was doing some funky things with the, the numbers and stealing a whole bunch of money. And this was happening over the number of years So, um, you know, the— it got me kind of thinking how these people can, um, manipulate and create, um, create a, uh, an advantage. And, and, um, there's things we can learn from those, these types of people, but certainly we don't want to be unethical, in my opinion.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think, uh, it's kind of funny because you're like going into this very passionate, um, talk about all of the skills that con artists essentially have, right? I mean, at the end of the day, you know, to put it simply, they are entrepreneurs in their own right. They're building trust. They're— maybe they're not selling a product, maybe they're stealing one, but they're selling themselves as someone who can be trusted. And obviously, taking ethics into account and, you know, the kinds of people we want to become, the kind of businesses we want to run, and the personal brand we want to build, I think learning a lot of those values is is pretty important when it comes to business and in our personal lives.

Yeah, yeah, there's, um, they see an opportunity where other people haven't seen that opportunity. So, you know, they've got devious plans, but the, as you say, the entrepreneur sees opportunities, obviously, ideally from an ethical standpoint. So they can see a great need in the market and they can facilitate the solution to that problem, and then everybody wins. Everyone benefits in an entrepreneurial endeavor, hopefully. Because you're creating some form of value for the world. But that, that way in which they can just view things slightly differently that other people are missing, that's where huge opportunities always lie, where those little gaps where people didn't identify them. And if you can see those gaps, you've got some sort of awareness of something, a scenario which no one else has seen just yet, there's huge opportunities there.

Yeah, I think when you talk about business and just even people's personal lives, like, there's a lot of relationships that are involved, right? There's a lot trust that's involved, a lot of symbiotic relationships, hopefully, you know, where there's mutual benefit coming from both ends. But there's also a lot of people that you either learn from or, you know, kind of have to go against in order to achieve what you want. And that's kind of a little bit what this lens is all about, right? Being a nonconformist by, you know, the standards that you've set for yourself, the kind of person you've decided to be and the business you're trying to create and the personal branding that you have, right? And you know, you talk a little bit about the haters here, moving on a little bit, right? And I wanna ask this question kind of from a two-sided view, right? One is I wanted to ask, what's your philosophy for kind of handling that sort of criticism, especially when it comes from sources that you don't know how valid they are, you don't know how trustworthy they are, but you know, it's feedback at the end of the day. And it's just words at the end of the day as well, right? And that being heard also, or that being said as well, you know, how do you tell the difference between useful feedback feedback or just somebody who's a hater, right? And that's obviously applicable to people trying to create their own brands as well as just people living their own lives, right? We hear countless pieces of information that goes into our, you know, that goes into our subconscious every day. And how much of that do we decide to utilize as feedback and how much of that is just noise?

Yeah. And so I think a lot of these things are important to me personally, just from my upbringing as well. So I grew up in a religious home which most people would consider a cult, so quite controlling. So I suppose, you know, you have so many beliefs as a youngster starting out, but a lot of those things stay with you. So it became a really big point for me to start thinking about looking at the world in different ways and appreciating other people's perspectives. By doing that, opening up myself to so many different perspectives and ways to see the world, it also meant that I could establish my own views. And if you establish a view in any certain thing, there'll be opposing views. And it's not necessarily to say they're wrong, they've got just a different perspective. But if you stand for anything, there's going to be people going to be people who have an opposing view, and that's perfectly fine. That they might become the haters, to put it extremely. If you're doing particularly well in your business because you've found a different path and you're doing it slightly different to everybody else, well, there's going to be opposition to that, and that's perfectly fine. That's a good sign, actually. If you're doing your business in a slightly different way to everybody else, you're distinctive, you've got a niche, whatever it is, a different way of working, then, uh, if you're causing any, um, disruption in the marketplace, then of course there's people that won't like, like what you, what you're up to.

Yeah, I think, you know, moving on a little bit into your part about personality and perceptions, right? You talk a lot about how people see you, how you're perceived in society, in business, and, you know, whatever industry you work in or, uh, whatever group you're a part of. And I think You talk about the gap between who we are and how we're interpreted, which is, I think, a huge, huge distinction that so many people don't talk about because at the end of the day, you know, um, it's not even like we're trying to be ingenuine, but we're always going to be wearing different hats, right? The person you are at work is not the person you are at home. The person you are at home, you know, is not the person you may be around your friends or, you know, you're, you're always a little bit different. That comes down to whoever's around you. That comes down to, you know, the role you play and things like that. But I want to ask, you know, both from an entrepreneurial standpoint as well as a personal standpoint. One, you know, what do you think entrepreneurs get wrong about personal branding? You know, because at the end of the day, whether that's cold calls, sales, talking to other founders, talking to VCs or whoever to raise money, things like that, you know, how do they approach that from a personal branding perspective? Because at the end of the day, You know, someone may want to fund your company, but they're really funding you, you know, and then moving that into a more personal approach. How do we approach friends, family, coworkers, etc., right, while playing the roles we're meant to, but also staying genuine?

Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, and you, you made a point earlier about having people in your world, um, that might be there for just a season as well, but sometimes they're there for the long journey. You know, your family and so on might be there for a long time. They can help reveal to you some aspects of you that you just can't see. You can't see your own eyes unless you've got a mirror, you know, you can't. So there's, we've got gaps in our understanding of who we are, but the more you can align your personal brand to authentically what makes you, the better it's going to be. It's easier to be that, that thing for the long term. And no one's any one thing. So there's different varieties of any one person and that, and that's fine. We understand that, but there's going to be some core threads that are consistent throughout. So whenever someone communicates with you, they kind of know, they have a sense of who you are, what you stand for, what you believe, the kind of quirkiness in you as well. People relate to that. Particularly in this day and age of AI, there's this perfection type material, you know, coming out. So, you know, content that's written by AI, it's all kind of coming out the same. The videos that look super realistic, it could be an avatar of myself, but it's a more polished version of myself. But there's a lack of authenticity. So I think these values are more and more important, and even to share vulnerabilities as well. The people connect on those sorts of, you know, the mistakes you learn and the lessons you learn and the vulnerability and you correct course if you make a mistake. Obviously, if you're serving a client and you, and you've done something not quite right, to own up to it, not to try and cover it up, but to own up to the mistake in the failing and correct course as best you can depending on what it is. So these things will stand you in good stead for the long term as opposed to just trying to cover up mistakes for the short term. Thinking it through long-term, people will start to trust you, know, like, and trust you.

Yeah, I wanted to actually expand a little bit on that point about the customer or the person who's kind of benefiting from you, right? Or you're trying to sell something to, or whatever relationship you kind of have with them. I think in a lot of ways, us entrepreneurs or people who are in that kind of space try to look almost perfect or try to put out a certain image, right? I think even at a personal standpoint, right? I think as parents or people who are, you know, responsible for other people, you try to be someone or present yourself as someone. And that's not, you know, to be ingenuine or, you know, be a con artist, but it's, it's, you always want to be seen a certain way, right? As someone in college right now, I want to be seen a certain way by my friends, my friends' parents. You know, I want to be respected by my peers. I want to be seen as someone by my parents. And then obviously as a business owner or someone who's working in that scene, you also want to be seen as someone who's competent by those peers, by that network, as well as, you know, most importantly, your customers. And I think especially in this age of AI or of being able to fabricate a lot of things, how do you stay genuine, right? How do you stay genuine while not risking that image that people may have of you.

Yeah, you want to present the best version of yourself for sure in all those circumstances. Um, it is an interesting time we're living in the world right now. I think that with the sales perspective, whether it's selling something as a business person or whether you're selling yourself to— for your career path to advance your career in a new field or whatever it is, it's kind of the same. And to think about it, I choose to think about it slightly differently. I'm not necessarily thinking about selling anything. I'm looking at them buying something. So they're in the marketplace to buy a solution to a problem they have. So I'm always trying to think about it from their perspective because I'm irrelevant to them. They're trying to solve a problem. So then all of a sudden the conversation is less about me pushing my certain agenda and my services, products. It's more about, hey, how does, how does What do you, what do you need? What, what's the problem you've got? How do we solve that? Here's my variety of solutions. There may be other solutions out there in the world because, you know, presenting and say, and sometimes if we're sales-minded, we'll present as if we're the only solution, and then there genuinely might be better options. So presenting it in a, a thoughtful way to say, hey, this is what I believe is the best solutions that we've got available to you. How does that fit with your, your goals? It kind of flips the script so you're less pushy and, and more drawing out what they need and serving them to a greater level. That's just a little mind trick for me to present in a more helpful way.

Yeah, and it's funny because relationships are kind of a double-edged sword in that way, right? As important as it is to build those relationships, to be trusted and all of that, it's equally as important to know when to let some of those relationships go. And that's also what you talk a little bit about, right? And I want to get right into the point here because I just want to ask you, right? How do you know when it's time to cut ties? Whether that's with a customer, a co-founder, and again, at a personal note, even with friends, right? I'll mention a bit of from my own life, right? I have friends who got into business with the wrong people or, you know, ended up regretting it a little bit later. They're facing similar struggles. Even on a bit more of a personal note, right? As I'm a college student, as you know, but as a freshman, you know, when you're on campus, when you're living with a bunch of people, and when you see the same people in all your classes and in the dining halls and things like that, everyone seems like a friend, right? 'Cause it's a low, it's essentially, it's very low cost to see someone. You literally walk across the hall. But now, right, even though we're still in extremely close proximity, you have to, I don't know, walk across a couple more streets to get to someone's apartment. And because of that, your circle drastically decreases. And, you know, obviously from some of my friends who are older, I've heard that, yeah, that circle continues to diminish a little bit. But going back to that point about how do you know when it's time to let someone or something go, right? As a business owner, especially a smaller business or an earlier business, when you start to gain a little bit of that traction or you have a large customer, you know, who's giving you money or giving you credibility or anything like that, it's hard to cut that off. It's hard to know when it's time to let go. And it's the same with friends, uh, and people in your social circle, right? How do you know when it's time to let go?

Yeah, it can be really difficult, um, that I suppose from a business context you have a sense of scarcity sometimes, particularly if it's just starting out in business. I mean, every, every customer, every client is incredibly valued because you feel it when they come or they, they leave, you know, it makes a significant difference. As you build a business which is more substantial, one customer coming or going doesn't make a huge impact on the overall scheme of things. So it gets easier. I think it even gets easier in life as you grow, you know, your world, you have different environments that you connect with relationally. So I suppose getting— there's always, there's often signs that a customer won't be a great fit for us. And I, and I've, you kind of sense it more and more over the course of time. But certainly those, in my opinion, for, for me, those that are sort of squabbling about the price and trying to get a lower price all the time, they're going to be painful the whole journey. It's just part of how they are to a degree. So that's a, that's a big red flag for us if, if they're squabbling about a few bucks. They're just going— it's going to be hard the whole way through because they're always trying to pinch a penny from you. Um, so that's a, that's a clear sign in a business context. But there's, there's those drains upon your energy in a, in a personal context, and it's exactly the same. So there's some people who will drain your energy away from you. They're, they're just like the squabblers over a bit of cash. They're taking something away from you. And there's others that are energizing you and uplifting you and taking you to a higher level. And often it's about in your personal networks, it's great if you can build into your relationships people who have done what you've, you're wanting to do. So they're almost like mentors now that it's not a commercial, um, you know, coaching experience, but it's mentors. You observe what they're doing and they just raise your standards to a higher degree. They've done what you wanna do. You can observe what they're, how they've done it. And it's not that you necessarily copy exactly what they do, there'll be nuance in how you want to go about it, but you become like the people you hang out with. So I mean, certainly when I was studying, there was, there was a lot of drinking and so on and all these things that as young people you do, they weren't necessarily uplifting me to a higher standard. So as I, as I matured, I suppose I did less of that kind of thing and built in some really solid mentors into my life, which was really helpful. And they've come and gone as, you know, I've moved around a little bit and people are not local to me anymore. But they served a great purpose at the time.

I love that point about mentorship that you bring up, right? And kind of finding people who will teach you, who you can grow with as well. You know, there's this quote now, of course I forget who said it, but you know, you are the sum of the 5 people who you kind of hang around the most, right? And I think I'm a big fan of that quote because I think it's very true. You see, even as you, you know, you share roommates or you hang out with different friends, you have different mentors and things like that. And of course there's a lot of things to learn from and listen to and kind of take in that information. But also on that note, you know, one of the biggest themes that you talk about is questioning authorities, right? Kind of kicking back, knowing when it's time to challenge that authority and looking at from entrepreneurship, right? First of all, how do you know when it's time to challenge that authority? What kinds of authorities are you talking about, right? Whether that's industry norms, pricing, marketing rules, you know, the business stages that are imposed on you, the glorified LinkedIn posts that everyone has nowadays, right? Or the mentors that you have. And then even when it comes to that average normal person, right? How do we find a balance? How do we know when, you know, we're exercising a certain level of curiosity, trying to put ourselves out there with mentors, or we're just lacking in our ability to take feedback and learn from someone more experienced than us? How do you know when it's time to, uh, kind of—

it is challenging to get that balance right. I, I think the key point, the, the first point is to, to understand what the norm is in, you know, so you know what you're challenging. Because if you're just naively challenging something just to be contrarian, well, that's, that's unhelpful because you, you won't know the strengths and the weaknesses of a certain way of doing things. But once you understand intrinsically what the what the, the norm is, then you can find the gaps of, of what might be a different outcome if you did it slightly differently. And it might not be a huge difference between whatever the norm is in, in the industry you're working in, but there might be just a slight difference which can create a far different outcome. Uh, might be about timing and speed of, of delivery, or it might be thinking about if you're selling a, a service, let's say, thinking about how do you productize it so you're selling it like a product or the opposite way around if you're selling a product. Okay, how do we service orient the, this? So we're coming at the market in a completely different way. So all of a sudden we're not competing on price alone, we're competing because we've positioned our offering in a slightly different way that no one's thought of before.

I think something that I've learned from the way you've written about this as well as, you know, obviously the points you just shared and conversations that I've had is A lot of the way you question authority or the way, you know, you necessarily kick back or push back is not always about your point. It's a little bit about how you present that as well. Right. You know, it's, there's a big difference between saying like, you know, your point doesn't make any sense or versus, you know, could you clarify that a little bit more? I'm not sure I got it.

Right.

Taking a more humble approach. Um, and I think that ties into the art of conversation, right. Which as an entrepreneur, as well as just a professional, a student, a founder, whoever you are, I think that's a huge, huge emphasis that needs to be put on that, right? And to kind of wrap up here with one final question, I wanna put a spin on one of your last points here about networking and conversation, right? Too often as a student, as a founder, or as professionals, you know, we go to our networking events, meet people. Sometimes we have awkward conversations, or sometimes we have extremely long-winded kind of small talk discussions that no one's particularly interested in. right? But for all the students, founders, business owners, professionals out there, right? You know, what have you found or, you know, kind of realized to make your brand speak through you or just have a mutually beneficial and meaningful conversation that actually creates value?

Yeah, well, there's different ways of tackling it. So one of the, there's a couple of, and they're completely different angles, but one tip that I got that I really applied because I heard it, a guy called Ben Angel mentioned it. To me is to always approach— if you're at an event where there's a speaker, the most important person in the room is the speaker, likely. So if you can approach them and make a conversation, you know, that's suitable, then you're gonna stand out in that room and to that person. And because they're perceived to be the most important, a lot of people just won't approach them. So it's bizarre, but because they're seen to be so important, no one, no one is brave enough to approach them. So that's a super easy win. Just make a conversation, make a friend of them, think of them as a friend and converse and find out what they're up to and what's happening in life and all of those sorts of things. So that's, that's one end of the spectrum. But the opposite is also important. So the people who no one bothers talking to, so maybe they're perceived to be not important at all. So the middle ground is the hardest bit because that's just where everyone's having lots and lots of having many conversations with the top, the top perceived top person or the lower, lower demographic. I don't know how you would describe it, the lower people who are maybe they're just starting out in the industry or that they haven't got much experience or they're young or whatever it is. Those people, if you start to speak to them and invest in a conversation with them, they're going to be really appreciative and they'll remember that for the long term. So whilst you can be, Talking to everybody that, you know, the middle ground, which most of us spend our time on, you're handing out your business cards, let's say. Well, they're going to get a stack of business cards by the end of the day and forget who you are. But the top and the bottom, they're going to remember you, and it's a worthwhile conversation.

I love it. That's a fantastic point to end on. So, you know, with that, we'll wrap up. Uh, I had an absolute blast today. I'm looking forward, uh, to, you know, our next episode. We'll talk about approach and position. I don't want to spoil too much there, but in today's episode, you know, we talked about a lot, right? It was pretty packed. We talked about what it means to be a nonconformist, right? To have a set core of values that you live by, but also find the people who will help you live by those values, push back when you're challenged, and staying genuine even when you wear, you know, multiple hats at once. And it's kind of funny to me because the lens is called Nonconformist, but at At the same time, you know, being with other people, learning compromise, learning from other people is all part of that journey, you know. And at its core, it seems like Lens 2 is all about choosing integrity over imitation, right? It's about letting your standpoint show up in who you serve, how you speak, and also what you're willing to walk away from, even when it's uncomfortable. So once again, Wes, I had an absolute blast today.

Awesome. And that's a pleasure being on the show. I'm loving, loving the conversations. Looking forward to the next one.

Yeah, likewise. And you know, in next episode, we'll combine lens 3 approach and lens 4 position. We'll talk about execution and marketing that actually works without burning you out. We'll talk about eliminating, you know, these monotonous tasks. We'll talk about building momentum, both in your personal and professional life. And we'll talk about positioning yourself well, both through content, through visibility, and how to do that, you know, in your own personal life as well. So looking forward to that. Until then, keep on learning, keep on changing, and keep on growing. We'll see you next time.