12-Steps On Your Own Terms

There are a lot of reasons, a lot of them kind of legitimate reasons, why people resist 12-step. And almost every time when someone has any kind of addiction issue, the first thing that they get told to do is go to some kind of 12-step group, and then they hear it over and over and over. But there's a lot of roadblocks there, and that's why I have brought on our special guest expert witness, Arlena Allen. She's going to talk to us about that. She's going to talk to us about 12 steps from the skeptic point of view. She actually just wrote a book. We'll talk a little bit more about it, but it is A 12-Step Guide for Skeptics, right? It's how do I consolidate or make sense— oh, there it is right there— how do I make sense of some of these concerns or frustrations or the parts that don't work for me? You know, how do I get something out of it? And like some workarounds and stuff like that, I think. Arlena, thanks for joining us.

Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here.

Glad you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about what made you want to write this book?

I was just telling you offline, you know, I wrote the book mostly out of frustration that I see, like what I love about social media. There's a lot of people getting sober and people, you know, starting these sober accounts and And I think it's, I think it's amazing, but I have noticed some people, um, just outwardly bashing 12-step. And when I do a little digging, I have found that they have some misinformation. And it breaks my heart because I think this is coming from a place like, if you're wanting to get sober and you explore 12-step and you have a bad experience at a meeting, Mm-hmm. Man, I just, my heart goes out to those people because it's a very vulnerable position to be in. And then you go to ask for help and sometimes you're met with things that are offensive or not welcoming.

It's a bad first impression. Yeah. Yeah.

You get a bad first impression and then, or you see people there that you're like, I don't relate to these people. And then you come away thinking this isn't for me. Right. And it's totally understandable. Right. Like I have a lot of compassion for people who have made the attempt and things didn't go well.

Right.

So my, this, this book is sort of like a compassionate, um, tone that says, hey, let me just offer some context and perspectives about, you know, separate fact from fiction. Let's talk about some of the benefits of 12 steps, why this is a worthy endeavor and how you can get the benefits without all the roadblocks.

Right. How you can make it work for you.

Right.

Even if every single little piece isn't perfect for you, how you can, what, what do they say? Keep what you like and leave the rest. Yeah.

Yeah. You take what you like, leave the rest. It's like, it's not an all or nothing thing. I think maybe that's one of the misconceptions. And I think that's kind of promoted by some of the people.

Yeah. I think you're right. I think it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, you have a whole section in your book called, I think it's called reasons why people leave 12-step programs or AA. Can we start with that? Because I always say it's always best to start with the resistance. Even, you know, there's some things, there's some things that happen. There's real reasons why people have bad experiences, why it doesn't work for people, why people leave. And you've got a whole section on that. You have multiple chapters and I love the way they're titled, you know, this roadblock, this roadblock. Can we have— can you share some of those with us?

Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think the main reason people leave kind of falls under the category of the people, the people, the meetings, the people in the groups. Yeah, yeah, people in the groups. And what I say right up front is that the program, the 12 steps, and the meetings, those are 2 separate things, right?

Good point.

And so the 12 steps are a You know, journaling exercise. It's a self-reflective— they're self-reflective exercises. But people go to meetings to sort of learn about the steps. They go to meetings to find other people who are also doing this process. You kind of need to go there to look for a guide. They call it a sponsor, someone that can walk you through the 12 steps. Because there's some parts of the steps that are a little open to interpretation. So It's beneficial to find somebody who has been through it, who has had a positive outcome, who kind of has what you want, somebody that you admire, let's say, and to get their perspectives on it. However, people leave sometimes because maybe they get a sponsor who is like super controlling, who say hurtful things. Like if somebody relapses, it's like, Or if they're not willing to do exactly what the sponsor did, sometimes they're like, oh, well, you're— maybe you're not willing enough, which is really so hurtful and invalidating.

Because I mean, things like you haven't suffered enough, or you're not— yeah, you're not willing.

Yeah, listen, people say all kinds of crazy things. And what I would offer is that I'm going to include myself in this group, so I'm not trying to be condescending, but AA is not the hotbed of mental health. Like, I didn't go there because I was— I didn't go there because I was like at my best. I went there because I was at my worst and I needed help. And so I had to work.

Yeah. Yeah.

I had to work through some stuff and I needed help. So, but I was getting help from other people who were like maybe a few steps ahead of me, but they weren't there. They hadn't arrived either. So sometimes sponsors can say things that are hurtful. People at meetings can say things that are hurtful. And I just want to just call out that there's no one person who represents the entire organization. There's this idea that you look for the similarities, not the differences. You look for what it is that you want, not what you don't want. And so we want to emulate behavior that we do want. But anyway, so When people leave, it's largely due to problems with people.

Right.

And one of the things that I want to throw out there is people get triggered at meetings and nobody likes that feeling of discomfort and anger and things like that. And so they, when we experience pain, the first thing you want to do is distance yourself from that. And, but what I would argue is that there's this, uh, do you know who Marianne Williamson is? She wrote this book called A Return to Love. She used to lecture on A Course in Miracles. Anyway, she's a great teacher. And she had this really cool analogy that a gemologist will take 2 amethysts, 2 raw, rough amethysts, and put them in a tumbler together. And as they tumble together, they knock off their rough edges. And when they come out, they come out smooth.

Yeah.

And so that's what like AA meetings are like. Sometimes you get tumbled around with these people who have rough edges. And they bump up against your rough edges. And the interesting thing is, like, if you have a sponsor, you can take your issue to your sponsor and your sponsor can help you work through the steps. Like, you can literally take an issue and work it through the steps and have an awareness and some knowledge about yourself and others. And as you bring compassion to that, it's Smooths you out, right? Just like the, like the gemologist. So it's a, it's a rough and tumble experience sometimes, but, you know, I call that growing pains. It's a good— it's actually a good thing to be triggered because that is a clue as to what needs to be healed, right?

Well, just like, just like any other environment where there's other people, whether it's family, work, school, anything, they're going to be characters there that you don't, that you don't vibe with.

Right.

So, you know, like, I like to tell clients there's going to be a monopolizer because in any group, you learn this in therapy school, in any group, you know, you're going to have somebody that monopolizes. You're going to have somebody they call like the help-rejecting complainer. You have these sort of different, I don't know, stereotypes, but these kinds of behaviors that show up and it drives you crazy. So sometimes it triggers you just dealing with that. Sometimes it triggers— people say it triggers them to hear people talking about drinking or using or whatever. And then, like you said, sometimes they're triggered because maybe they didn't get treated very compassionately. You know, I think there's all kinds of triggers in there.

Yeah. And, you know, again, I think it's a good thing actually to be triggered because it allows issues to arise. You know, we typically don't learn through joy. We typically learn through areas of pain.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and when we can, I think the natural reaction is to avoid pain, but like maturity and growth, like there is growing pains as a thing. Like it is kind of painful. So if we can adopt this mindset of, if we have this awareness, it's like, oh, I'm going to get triggered. And that's actually a good thing if we can lean into it and sort of like unpack what's really going on inside of us. That leads us to healing. It leads us to places where we need to express pain, maybe unresolved pain from the past. There's this idea that if we have a response that's disproportionate to the situation, it has nothing to do with what's happening in the present. We're sort of being triggered from something in the past. And the only way that we're really able or motivated really to deal with it is when it arises. So I have a friend that says never waste a good crisis. You know, I love that.

Yeah.

Unpack it and get to the healing underneath.

And it's just such an important recovery skill across the just period because the whole thing is, is I'm uncomfortable. I want to numb it or I want to run from it. And the key is to figure out why you're uncomfortable and either solve the problem or learn something or change something. Right. And not to just run from it. So These things that push your buttons, these are opportunities to look inside. Like, for example, you know, like if someone in the group monopolizes and that triggers you, what is it telling you? It's telling you that you have a value about being considerate and mindful about the other people, right? And that's something to learn about yourself. You know, they're just opportunities. And I love the gym reference, the tumbling. I've never heard that, but that's like—

That's pretty cool.

I love that. Yeah.

Yeah.

What were some of your own roadblocks or skepticisms or, you know, when you first— it's kind of overwhelming. I mean, it's a lot to take in when you first walk in there. I mean, it's like a whole— it's discombobulating.

Yeah, it was completely disorienting. Disorienting. So I got sober 30 years ago, and at that time there was nothing else. For me, other than 12-step, and I'm so grateful for that because I think if I had another out, I probably would have taken it because some of the roadblocks I faced were like when I got when I was kind of in my sober curious phase, or like okay, this is a problem. I've been trying to moderate manage it in all these ways. All my ways are not working. What else can I do? And a friend of mine had the 12 steps written on like a bookmark. And I was in his office, sitting in his office, and he slid it across his desk and he had me read it. And the first thing I saw was God, powerless alcoholic. I was like, first of all, God, no thank you. I had so much religious trauma growing up that I was like, if that's what this is, I can't do it. You know, I was really like, oh my God. And I had a sponsor who, um, ended up giving me this really quick little exercise. Do you want me to tell you what it is now?

Oh yeah, we would love it. Yeah.

Well, I met this lady who really early on, and I kind of pulled her aside and I was like, if this, you know, I saw God and I was like, I was really worried about it. And I was like, look, if this is what this is, I can't do it. She goes, oh, don't even worry about it. She's like, that's not really a thing. Um, she said what she said, uh, if I had a problem with God, chances are I had a problem with somebody else's God. Like I had was told what it was and sort of That's what it was.

Like somebody tried to push something on me that didn't— it wasn't right for me.

Yeah, there were things like I grew up in a very religious household and there were things that didn't make sense to me. And so like just internally, I was— I had always struggled with it. But then when I met this gal, Kimmerz, I write about her in the book a lot. She was like, okay, that's not even a thing. She goes, you can actually make up your own definition of God. And I was like, what are you talking about? She goes, yeah, you can just come up with your own definition. And I didn't know that that was a thing, but she was like, she handed me a piece of paper. She said, okay, make 2 columns. On one side, write down all the things you want God to be. And on the other side, write down all the things you don't want God to be. So on the good side, I was like, you know, all loving, all powerful. I'm clearly the favorite. Wants the best for me, you know, just all these really positive things. And on the other side, it was like, uh, that I didn't want was like the punishing kind condemning, you know, all the fire and brimstone stuff I'd been taught in my childhood and all these negative things. And when I was done, she goes, okay, let me see your paper. And I handed it to her and she tore it in half and she gave me the good side.

And she's powerful. Look at that.

Yeah, I was like, oh, I don't know. She handed me the good side and she's like, we're just going to start with this. And I'm like, that's it? She was like, yeah, that's it. Like, it was like such a non-issue that I was shocked. I thought it was going to be like this whole religious thing. And I think that's one of the biggest misperceptions is that people think it's religious. And I will not deny that if you are Christian, if you're religious and you are Christian, it will be easier for you because there's a lot of like terminal— it is, it was written by people that were religious. Christians specifically, and at a lot of meetings people pray. So I will not deny or argue that point, but it's a take what you like, leave the rest kind of a thing. So if you don't want to pray, you don't want to do any of that stuff, you don't have to. There's really no requirements for membership, just the desire to stop drinking, and that is it. That's what's in the literature.

One of the things that I've Told people for years, and I'm telling you this so you can weigh in and say yes, no, or sort of, or, you know, is really to me that part is about acknowledging that you're not God and that you don't know everything. Because that's what happens in addiction. It's like we keep trying to do it our way. We keep trying to say, yeah, but you don't understand. Yeah, but this. Yeah, but that. And I know best. And we keep trying our own way, our own way, our own way. And we don't want to listen. Any, any, anywhere else, you know? And so it's, for me, it's about letting go of thinking you have all the answers. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there because it needs to make sense. Right. And so if we make decisions based on the information that we have and that we believe is true, and then from there we make decisions and, um, then we take actions and then the actions lead to, uh, cause and effect.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And so what ends up happening is there, if there is a flaw, if there's missing information or incorrect information in the presupposition and the feeling and the assumption, then everything that comes from that is going to have an error. And what ends up happening is we get into like the cybernetic loop and we end up right back where we started. So, you know, if we apply our critical thinking skills, that just means that there is an error somewhere. It doesn't mean that we're bad or wrong. There's a lot of shame that's involved when someone's trying to get sober. And I think that's, that gets, um, that triggers like defensiveness and things like that. But if we could just look at this from like facts or a scientific standpoint of like, this is how the brain works, these are how decisions are made, then it becomes depersonalized. And it doesn't mean that you're bad or wrong. It just means that there's an error somewhere and we need to make it make sense. So if you have the experience that you kind of keep repeating the same loop, then we have to sort of be like, okay, um, there's an error in my thinking. And then when it comes to like the God thing, um, there is sort of this idea that God, like we are the creation and God is the creator and the creation isn't separate. So there's this idea. I like the idea that God is within me. And I am able to follow God's will by tuning into my internal compass, like inside. It's not something— I guess it's something inside and outside of me, but it's the feeling of love. And I see that and follow that. Like someone told me once, if you follow your heart, you know, that's kind of— but there's a little disclaimer there that the ego speaks first and the ego speaks loudest. But when you can get quiet, you can hear. The stillness of your heart, that is, that is your guide, that is your compass. And to me, that is God. And so, um, there is a point of surrender when we have to acknowledge that our thinking process is, is flawed and we can ask for help. I think the fundamental, um, underneath everything is this idea that we're alone, that everything is all on us to figure it out.

Mm-hmm.

But figure it out is not a slogan for a reason, because we do need help from others. It's like you can't read the label from inside the jar. Like when you're in emotional turmoil, you're in the jar and we do need outside perspective to help us. And so this whole idea of asking God for help, it's, it's, it's kind of complicated or maybe it's simple. I don't know. But, um, I think the combination of asking for help And getting quiet and listening to your internal compass is sort of how, like, God plays out in my life.

I totally agree with that. And I also like what you said about the ego. I think it's hard to differentiate sometimes what's coming from where. And part of, you know, having other people, they can help you differentiate those 2 different voices inside. And you talked a lot even before we went live about those Opposing points of view, those conflicting sides of you. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Because that's where I think it gets hard to really hear, you know, that what you're calling like the stillness of your heart. You've got this side, you've got this side.

It's so interesting because even in like ancient times, you know, they talk about the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other shoulder. And, um, but, um, I've recently like, um, come across internal family systems, which is a therapeutic modality. That sort of says that like, we all have all these different parts within us and that all of the parts within us have a positive intention, even though sometimes, um, they, it plays out in negative ways. Like addiction is, um, a part of us that is trying to distract us from our pain. Like that's the purpose of a distraction and addiction is to help, um, help turn our attention away from pain.

Mm-hmm.

But what we resist persists, right? So if you have pain and you keep burying it or denying it or shoving it down or whatever, it just persists and festers. And, and so, but, but then you have other parts of you that are like, I want to be good. I want to be better. I want to live to my highest potential. I want to be my authentic self. You know, I want to accomplish these goals. So we have like these conflicting parts. So they're, they're called polarized parts. There's a part of you that wants to do good. There's a part of you that wants to be relieved of suffering. And typically that comes from, you know, when we were younger and we didn't have the coping skills to process emotional pain to resolution. And so because we don't have the skills, we need a distraction because to tolerate that pain is really intolerable.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, whatever you can't process to resolution, we distract from.

So it could be— You can't process it as a kid, but you don't have the ability to get away from certain things. You don't have the ability to change things. You don't have the ability to have an opinion. So you kind of, sometimes that's all you can do is distract or numb or ignore. Yeah.

When, when kids are, when kids are being abused, they go through something called dissociation where they actually physically leave their body. Like their brain leaves the body and that's what helps them to survive. But this dissociation cuts us off from that internal compass because we don't get to choose which feelings we feel. Like when you cut off pain, you also cut off access to joy, contentment, um, inspiration, like all we cut off from that too.

Yeah.

So it's important to, it's like the survival skills that we learned when we were young don't really translate to healthy adult Skills because we need access to all our feelings to be able to communicate our needs and wants and really get in touch with ourselves to be able to tell what, what is a fit for us and what isn't. But it's a survival skill. So adulthood for a lot of us is about unlearning those survival skills that get triggered when we're stressed out. Because you can act normal. Like, I know a lot of high-functioning people And, but when they get really stressed out, they revert back to their survival skills, which cause problems like in relationships and drinking and using. So it's a little messy.

Or even as you're saying that, I'm thinking like, because I deal a lot with people who have alcoholism, I deal a lot with functional alcoholics. And it's like maybe they're triggered all day at work and they hold it together, but then when they get home, it's like they can deal with it for a short period of time, but then they need some relief from that or something, you know?

Yeah. And that need for relief is actually very valid. Right. And so, you know, in IFS terms, there are these roles called firefighters. And so a firefighter gets called when there's an emergency and a firefighter will put water on a burning house. It puts out the flames, but the water destroys the house. You know, that's what addiction is. It's like we have this inner turmoil that we don't know how to resolve. And in an emergency, you know, here comes the alcohol that puts the flames out, but it also destroys the house.

I love what you're saying, Arlena, about, about the resolving internal conflict, because that's what the 12 steps do. Like, it's not really a lot about don't drink. It really isn't. There's a little piece of it, but it's like the steps are actually teaching you. It's like a systematic process of Identifying what's going on with you, addressing what's going on with you, getting, you know, it just sort of is a system process to teach you to do that. And then once you know, you can apply that to all these other everyday regular situations that you're going to come across.

That's such a good point. And that's really what I loved about the 12 steps is like, once I got past my initial, I don't know what to call it. Like there was like, there was a fair amount of ick. when they were talking about like alcoholic, you know, powerless, you know. Um, and what I will say is that, you know, my way around those things were about redefining, um, you know, redefining what the word alcoholic meant, you know, which was just acknowledging the facts of like how I was processing alcohol and then powerless, you know, it was like, oh, it's over alcohol. It's not over everything.

Mm-hmm.

And I would argue that everybody's powerless over alcohol in the sense that if you ingest it, it kicks off a chemical chain of reactions that Affects my body in a very specific way. It's very reliable. That's why I did it. Um, but, um, but getting past all that, it was like, oh, the 4th step was a very pragmatic and practical way to get really specific about the causes of my resentments or places where I felt angry or, um, uh, upset for some reason and get really specific about who I was resentful at, what, what specifically was the cause, how it's, how it affected me and how I responded in certain situations. And when I went through the process of the 4 steps, I began to see all these patterns like over and over again. Turns out I was dating the same guy over and over again. He just had a different face.

And if you can relate to that, I bet there's some people in here.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

I dated the same guy over and over. It was hilarious. Um, And, and I, and there were some other dynamics, like the way I handled responsibility. Like I saw that I, um, abdicated responsibility to others and assumed inappropriate responsibility for others. So it was really like in my— and I'll just give you a quick example. So like, um, I grew up with my mom and my older sister. She's a couple years older than me. We get into these arguments and my mom would bring up this— we'd be arguing about one thing and then she'd bring up something and then I'd bring up something and then she'd bring up something else.

And pretty soon there's like 10 things on the table.

I don't know what we're arguing about anymore. And things would blow up and we'd go our separate ways. And then when we came back, you'd try to address it and she'd be like, I didn't say that. Like, you could just see like— and so it was like nobody took responsibility for anything. We were all blaming each other for it, that, you know, you're making me feel this certain kind of way. And so I was making them responsible for my, my feelings, and I was like, and they were blaming me. It was just a mess. It was a mess. And so the process helped me to sort out what was mine and what wasn't, because when I was able to let go of what wasn't, it helped me bear the weight of what was, right? That's when I saw in black and white. I was like, oh, I'm responsible for how I respond. I'm responsible for what I say. And oh, by the way, in a lot of these situations, I was actually provoking people where I thought I was the victim. I was actually provoking people through things like manipulation or coercion and not really realizing it.

Right. Like, like you were triggering certain reactions out of people and you didn't like those reactions, but you didn't realize that you were sort of a domino in that process.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Like not being able to be honest about what I wanted or what I needed for fear of what they would say, especially in romantic relationships. It's like, um, afraid to, to tell somebody if like hurt my feelings or if I wanted something and I just couldn't, you know, I did, couldn't find the strength to be honest about what I really wanted. And then they didn't meet my need and then I'd be upset about it.

Right.

You know, these guys aren't mind readers, you know, you need to tell people and say like, if you loved me, if you really knew me.

If you cared, you'd know these things, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes they just don't. And, you know, how could they? I don't even know what I want half the time.

Right.

I don't know what I want or what I need. A lot of times when I start working with people, it's like, okay, well, what is it that you want? And they're like, I don't even know. Like, what brings you joy? I don't really know. Like, it was alcohol before. And now that I'm not doing that, I don't even know. Right. Addiction is like the narrowing of things that bring you joy.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, that's spot on. That's right. Narrow eventually down to only the one thing, right?

Yeah. It's like you sacrifice everything for one thing, and then when you give up that one thing, then you get everything back.

Exactly.

But it takes a minute to sort of realize that until you get some distance from it. You don't, can't really connect the dots.

It takes a minute to even realize that you Lost the ability to get joy from all those other things.

Yeah.

You don't even realize it's happened usually.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, we're gonna go to a concert. Well, let's, you know, do some stuff. Like I was a big weed smoker too. So it was like everything always centered around drugs and alcohol, you know? And, and then pretty soon that became the focal point and then everything was sort of ancillary, right? Like it didn't matter. And then pretty soon I'd just be, I could stay home and watch TV and by myself. Like, how did I get here?

I like to say it just— everything else in life just becomes shit you have to do, check off the list before you— so you can go do what you want. The one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deal with work, deal with family, you know, even just going on fun adventures. It's just crap I got to do to make other people happy or whatever.

It's exhausting.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

Can I, can I— I want to sort of quickfire at you a few of the common resistances. I know that's probably not a word that I come across or that I hear and maybe hear your take on it.

Sure.

Okay. How about, I may drink or use too much, but I'm, I'm not nearly as bad. I'm nothing like those people in that group. So funny.

Yeah. The thing is, you know, they say that comparison is the thief of joy. It kind of works in both directions. Right. So you can compare yourself to people that are doing better than you and feel bad about yourself. And you can compare yourself to people that are worse off and you feel better about yourself, but neither is a source of truth. And when we get down to how do— is it, how is it that you want to feel? You know, um, you don't have to hit rock bottom in order to decide that you want to feel better.

Right.

You don't have to compare yourself to the people who have lost everything. Like, you don't have to lose everything to decide that you want to live an alcohol-free life. Like, a lot of people are starting to realize that living alcohol-free is a superpower, not because it's a problem, but because—

Completely agree.

They want to reach their highest potential.

Right. And, and no matter what, alcoholic or not, it's probably holding— if you drink, if you— it's probably holding you back in some way. Right? 100%. It's consuming time, it's consuming energy, it's— yeah, it's making you feel crappy. And listen, even if it's not like I need to go to AA, it's still a roadblock.

And when we do that, that is your brain's— so there's this thing called confirmation bias. We look for the information that supports our belief and disregard information that doesn't support our belief. So if you walk in, you're like, I'm not as bad as those people, be Be cognizant and aware of the fact that your brain is trying to help you justify continuing, you know, bad behavior.

Spot on. Spot on. I will. One of the things I'll just throw in there too, because a lot of the people that watch our videos are are family members of people who have substance abuse, and one of the things I find is that you can help your loved one overcome that roadblock by literally just acknowledging. Acknowledging that, look, you're definitely not the worst alcoholic in the world. You're probably not as bad as half the people in there, but maybe there's something in there you relate to, like literally acknowledge that. So, because if you don't and they're going to the meeting and they don't want to go to the meeting, they're looking for why they shouldn't be at the meeting, you know?

Yeah.

And they're filtering for that specifically. So I think there are certain ways to help people to filter differently just by setting the stage differently.

There's an old adage that says, look for the similarities, not the differences. You know, because at the end of the day, you're not alone. There's anybody who's struggling with substance abuse. I think everybody, whether you have substance abuse or not, we all sort of have this deep-seated fear that we're alone.

Right.

And the truth of the matter is nobody is alone. in their thinking, in their behavior. And we all have this real strong need for connection.

Mm-hmm.

And so the idea is, so if you can hold the mindset of look for the sim— like just have an awareness that your brain is looking for reasons to reject it, you know, that's going to be helpful. And then when you start looking for the similarities, not the differences, that's a total different mindset. I particularly had to go, I went to like the bougie side of town. where all the fancy people went, right? Like all the doctors and lawyers and business owners. I'm from Silicon Valley, so there was like a lot of tech people, a lot of professionals that were just crushing it in life. And I was like, so those are the people that I hung out with that were also alcoholic, right? Who also got my kind of crazy and helped me establish a new normal.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, yeah, you can be a total badass in the tech space. You know, you can also be struggling with something and here, let us just show you how we did it.

Right.

These are people that I was inspired by. So find those people if you're going to meetings. And listen, there's a lot of people that are living in rural places that don't have access to a lot of meetings. And what I would offer is that there are so many online meetings with professionals or your people are out there. They're out there and they're online. And for me, those were as satisfying. as being in person. I prefer to be in person, but I moved and I'm in a rural area, so I don't have access to those meetings anymore, but I still have access to the online meetings.

Right. So you can, you can look around and find the right one for you, whether it's the right people or it's the right location or it's online or in person. You know, you do have options with that. Let me throw another one. Let me throw another one at you. How is talking about my problems in front of a group of people that don't even know me going to help me?

There's this old saying that joy shared is expanded and pain shared is divided. Right. And there's, yeah, there's the only time I ever felt bad after leaving a meeting is when I didn't share when I needed to. And there's something about speaking the truth that takes the power out of it. Like, I have had moments— like, vulnerability is actually a superpower. And there have been meetings that I've gone to where I felt really safe and I was able to share in a general way. I don't offer specifics, but I could share in a general way what I was really afraid of. And I was always met with love and kindness and support. And there's something about that dynamic that made me feel connected and bonded to these people. They, we often hear of trauma bonds as like in a healthy, dysfunctional way. But I have found that when I had the courage and strength to share what was really going on with me, other people would be like, yeah, me too. And somehow we would like feel bond. I would feel bonded to those. people. Like, it was such a relief to be— I feel like we all have like these human needs of being seen, heard, and understood. And when you— and this is an experience, and I'm suggesting that you try it. I'm not suggesting that you trust me. Like, that is the mind of the skeptic, is like, like, I'm, I don't sure— I'm not sure I believe you. I'm not, I'm not asking that you believe me. I'm gonna— I'm just, I just throw out suggestions, and people at meetings throw out suggestions. And some people, some people act like it's a, like you have to do this thing. Not true. Just take all these suggestions as experiments and run the experiment for yourself so that you can have your own experience.

Right.

But, but there is an experience of when you talk about your problems, you sometimes, it's so funny how like when we, um, talk about our problems, sometimes when you talk it out, you come to your own conclusion.

Yeah.

Sometimes you just need to talk it out. Like women process out loud.

Yeah.

Or I do.

That's what I say I love about being a therapist. I'm like, it really isn't anything I say. It's the fact that they're talking about it. They figured out and they feel like I fixed it or whatever. I was like, I just take all the credit, but really it's just them. It's not my advice, right? It's the talking about it out loud. They figure out their own answers. It's so true.

And the truth of the matter is that you do say things that like you can introduce. I'm sure you introduce ideas that they hadn't considered before. Like, you can insert information in a certain part of their decision-making process where it changes the outcome of the decisions and the actions. So having the right information is important at the right time, but it really is about taking action and having an experience for yourself. Experience is the best teacher.

Right.

You and I can say things, but until you have the experience after you take the action, That's what changes everything.

So you're saying, you know, I'm not asking you to trust me, I'm just asking you to try it and then trust your experience from it. Did it work? Did it not work? Find the parts that worked.

Yeah. And, and, um, I just had an experience with a friend where she— we were talking about vision boards and she was like, oh, I did it and it didn't work. And I wanted to be like, well, tell me exactly what you did because I suspect There was a problem in there somewhere. Like there's a shift in perspective. And so there is some of it that's like, well, I went to a meeting, I tried it, it didn't work.

Right. Yeah.

It's like, well, did it? I hear that all the time.

I've been to treatment 10 times. It doesn't work. And I'm like, okay, but did you do what they told you to do? They're always like, what's that?

Yeah. Yeah. So if we can examine, so an experiment is about taking information and taking action and then examining the results. And then based on the results, you go back to the, uh, the experiment itself. Did I run the experiment right? Or how can I change the experiment so I can get the outcome that I want? Like, I, I really do like the scientific approach. I do, I do love me some spirituality and stuff like that. But, um, when I don't have faith, I have science.

There you go. Right.

And so I do. So. There is a little bit of caveat to running the experiment, which is to, when you get a result, to go back and examine the process too. But, but the general idea is that when you go through it, like I'm suggesting that you do the 12 steps and that you don't trust me that you're going to have a transformational experience. Like you need to do it for yourself to figure out if that's true or not, but you will never know if you've already decided that you're not going to do the 12 steps. steps for whatever reason. And that brings me sort of to this idea of everybody wants to think that they're open-minded until you ask them to do something that's outside of their comfort zone.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that's fun. That's a good point. That's fun.

What about, here's another one. Well, I went to some meetings, but all they talk about is using and drinking, and that just makes me want to use and drink more.

That's always interesting to me because I don't go to those kinds of meetings. Like, you know, so the— a healthy meeting is a meeting where they talk about the solution and they talk about their pain, but then they talk about the solutions. And people don't typically have a drinking problem, they have a life problem. And so when people talk about their life problems and we talk about life solutions, then we don't really need to drink, right? Like, if you create a life that's so good Like that you don't want to mess it up with drugs or alcohol. Like, that's kind of the point, right?

Right.

Is that we create a life that we don't need to get high from.

Right. And then, and then it makes it much, much easier to stay sober. Yeah.

So if you're going to meetings where people are talking about that, I suggest that you find different meetings because really what we're talking about is working the steps. And that, that again goes to the difference between the steps And meetings. Like, some meetings are problematic, but if you get a sponsor, you can work the steps. And sometimes you can— I like going to meetings because meetings check off a bunch of boxes for me. It's like service, I can give back, I can connect with others, um, I can review the information that helped me stay sober. So it checks a lot of boxes for me. But if people are talking about drinking and using at meetings, that's probably not a healthy meeting.

When you were just saying that about like the meetings aren't the work, I just had sort of a, I don't know, it's like a visual in my head of it's sort of the difference in you have a job, you go to work, and then sometimes you go to a meeting to talk about the work, but it's not the work. It's the meeting to talk about the work, right? So it's kind of like the meeting is part of it, but there's the work of the program.

That's a really good— I'm gonna have to steal that one. That's really good.

Okay, in just a second, if you have time, do you have a few minutes? Do you have a few minutes?

Sure.

Okay, we'll take some questions and comments and concerns from the audience. So if you have something for Arlena, go ahead and put it over there in the chat, or if you're watching on the replay, go ahead and put it in the comments because I always come back and read all of the comments and answer the ones that I can. And Bree is going to pop some of them up here for us. In the meantime, while you guys are getting those up there. I will tell you that as always, there are resources in the description, including a link to the book, which is really awesome. And also to your podcast, because I didn't even mention that, but you have a podcast called the One Day at a Time Podcast.

Yeah.

YouTube channel called the same thing, right?

Yeah. One Day at a Time Recovery Podcast. I had to change it to Recovery Podcast because there was apparently One Day at a Time is a very common Uh, name. So yeah, I've been doing that for 8 and a half years.

And then you also have a group that you've started, is that right?

Well, yeah, so I have, um, in mid-February I'm going to have a group called the Inner Compass Program. So it's going to be a program, um, with some meetings and community attached to it. So, and it's all about dealing with the internal resistance. So there's a chapter in the book book talking about, uh, recovery resistance. And really it's about, you know, what limiting beliefs are, how we develop them, and the resistance we feel. Like we were talking about, we have those polarized parts. A part of us wants to live a healthy lifestyle, a healthy— a other part wants us to like have fun and distract and whatever. Um, so, um, this community is going to be about focused on resolving internal resistance. It's going to be about Rebuilding self-esteem, which is closely tied to identity. It's like when you want to sort of adopt a new lifestyle, you kind of have to adopt a new identity. And that part of that is raising your self-esteem, which actually takes a real big hit during the addiction process. And even if you're, um, in a dysfunctional relationship, if you're on the other side of it, like if you're the, the partner or spouse or family member of the addict, You know, it's the entire thing is dysfunctional and our self-esteem really takes a hit. So it's about raising your self-esteem. It's about learning to do the work of resolving these polarized parts. It's resolving the resistance so we can take action on the information that we already have. A lot of us, like, like I'm a self-help junkie. I like to consume information, but I need to apply it. Like we need to take, you know, we need to know what action to take. And then have the ability to take the action so that we can get the results.

I love it. It is such a safe place to explore those conflicting parts and some of that resistance. It's a place that you can actually talk about it, get some feedback on it. Whereas I think sometimes you go to a group or to a therapist or to a 12-step meeting and you feel like you have to say all the right things.

Yeah.

And because of that, you're not getting what you could get out of it because you're You don't want to say, you know, well, I don't like this part, or I'm reluctant to this part, or there's this other part of me that feels this way, or, you know what, there's some things I still like about drinking or smoking or whatever, you know. And so you need a safe place to be able to explore that ambivalence and those conflicting pieces.

I think it's so important to be able to talk about the things. And I think that's one of the things that takes people away is that sometimes there's this, you know, Like, don't question the process, just do it. And it's like, oh, it needs to make sense. Like, we need to understand why we're like this. We need to understand why we need to take action. And, um, and, but what I wanted to share is that, um, you know, that there is a process to resolving that internal resistance. And I created a PDF worksheet that people can download for free at innercompassprogram.com.

Mm-hmm.

And there is, so it's a PDF and it helps, it walks you through addressing these polarized parts so that both parts, it's kind of like a negotiation process.

Okay.

It's a validation process of both sides so that when those parts are calm, then you can operate from your higher self and get yourself to take action. Yeah.

I love that. I will put the link. I'll get that link from you as soon as we get off here and I'll put it in the description, and I'll also put it in the comments so you guys can find that. I'll do that pretty quickly when we get finished, so it's not there now, but I will get it there for you. All right, Bree, will you pop a question up here for us? And I'm gonna let my doggy Spencer out because he's fussing at the door.

I see that Dawn is asking whether I recommend in person or online. I, I would say either. But if you can, I think, I think that a lot of people are afraid to go to in-person meetings. So if you can find a friend to go with you, I would say go to an in-person meeting. But sometimes you just might want to dip your toe and, and do the online just to kind of be like a less scary.

And going to online meeting for the first one or two might help you to just at least just get your bearings about how they do things because there's this whole procedures and these readings. And at least you're walking in kind of knowing what to expect. It's kind of like, let me just watch this one time and then maybe go if you're scared, if you're nervous.

Yeah. The other thing is too, is I don't think most people know that there are different kinds of meetings. And I do talk about this in the book. There are different kinds of meetings. So if you want to go to an in-person meeting, you could actually go to something called a speaker meeting. And that's when you show up and there's just one person who tells their story. So you can show up and just listen and kind of get comfortable in the room and kind of meet some people, get some literature. I feel like speaker meetings are kind of a safe sort of first step because you don't feel that pressure to share, speak, or share.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

All right, Bree, here's a question from Gina. How do you know who a good sponsor is? This is a good question.

This is a good question. Thanks, Gina. Um, a good sponsor is somebody who is not going to give you advice, but who will share what they did. And so typically you go to meetings and you listen to people share and you kind of get a sense of, are they saying things that resonate with you? Do they seem calm? Do they seem like they have what you want? And it's sort of a, you kind of have to trust your gut. you kind of have to follow your internal compass. If it feels right, maybe this is somebody that's for you. Um, some people are attracted to the very strict sponsor because some people really do well with really strict guidelines. Like, some people like the drill sergeant kind of sponsor, right? Some people don't do well with that at all. I was very rebellious, so that did not work for me. I was always attracted to women that were sort of a motherly figure that made me feel Safe, who are just kind and compassionate, people who aren't going to be like— like, honesty is really important, but there's this idea that honesty without compassion is cruelty. And I wasn't interested. I was already feeling sensitive. Like, I didn't need somebody who was gonna— right? Some people really need that. Some people like that. It just wasn't like him.

Um, I'll just bring this up because I'm trying to think of all my, the resistance, the reluctance I run into since we have you here as our expert on that. One of the things that's intimidating about getting a sponsor is it's almost like asking someone out. It's kind of—

Oh my gosh. Will you be my sponsor?

What's your advice on that? It's kind of like, I don't know, it's just kind of awkward for a minute there.

Oh my gosh. I was so, I remember that I said when I asked Timmers to be my sponsor, my heart was pounding, my hands were sweaty. I was like, you know, hi, I asked her to be my sponsor. I kept hearing that people were doing steps 1, 2, and 3 and relapsing, and I was terrified of relapsing. So I was really focused on the stick. You know, there's the carrot and the stick, and I was really focused, like, I do not want to relapse. And, um, I said, will you listen to my inventory? That's how I asked her if she'd be my sponsor. And she said, I would be honored, but we're going to start with step 1. It was super awkward. But yeah, I had to, I had to do this because I really, I really didn't want to relapse and I wanted to be sober. So I knew I was going to have to work the steps and that's how, that's how it happened.

I love how committed you are. You're just like, I know people get to this step and it messes them up, so I just want to make sure I do that. I love that. It's like serious willingness there.

Bree, do we have any other questions that pop up there? There was one from Ivy that I saw.

Yeah, here it is. How can I get my husband to realize slash admit he has a problem to even begin the process of recovering? Substance abuse has been going on for almost a year now. Married 21 years, 4 kids together.

Gosh, I would have her listen to the episode that I just did with you.

Okay. Yeah, we talked about, yeah, a little bit.

Yeah, we talked about letting people suffer the consequences of their own actions. And I know it's painful, especially if you're married and you have kids. There's like money involved and kids are involved. But letting people suffer the consequences of their actions is probably the best thing that you can do so that they can realize on their own that their behavior is a problem. And also, you also mentioned that what works and what is fair are 2 different things. That one really hit home for me because when we can align With our spouse and be like, I could see how you feel this way. I'm sorry, that's how— I don't know, you're better at this than I am, but not being an adversary, being an ally, I think is really important to supporting somebody and coming to the conclusion on their own that they're using as a problem.

Right.

We can say, I feel it. Oh, right. We can say I statements. Like, you know, somebody does something, it's like, I feel sad, and just let that hang like a lead balloon. I feel disappointed. I feel so discouraged. I feel hopeless. And just, that's it. Let them, let them hear the effect that they're having on you without being like, you made me feel.

You gotta, you gotta be careful with that because the ones you named are sort of like vulnerable ones, which I do think work better than I feel angry, I feel pissed, I feel betrayed. I feel, you know, you kind of, you have to select, sort of get underneath the, that first, you know, I get underneath the, I feel angry, I feel betrayed and go like a layer deeper and then say that one usually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Usually disappointed, sad, hurt, but it's, they're an I statement. It's not like you made me.

Right.

Because that's holding somebody else for your— holding somebody else responsible for your feelings.

Right, right. Bree, do we have another one up there? All right. Dale says, how can I share this episode with my addicted loved one in a helpful, supportive way? Dale, I'm glad you're asking this question. I don't know if you've heard me say, but don't use any of my videos as a weapon. So how you present it is super important. Good question, Dale. We'll see what Arlena has to say about it.

Oh, I was waiting for you to say something. Well, um, I typically share information like this, like I have kids, right? And there are sometimes there are things I want my kids to know, but I share with them how this information has helped me. So, wow, I just heard this podcast and I, it's when we can share from our own vulnerability, from our own shortcomings. It's like, wow, I heard on this episode they were talking about taking personal responsibility and I can see how I've been making you responsible for my feelings. This was really eye-opening to me. And they might be like, what?

Yeah. What she, what Arlene just said is a really good tactic, right? And it's like, especially if it's like, I like what they said and what you're about to say is something that they're going to agree with. They said that thing, you've kind of been saying that too. Or, you know, that, you know, I've been doing this. If it's, I learned something that I've been doing, they're gonna be more likely than say, I listened to something that you need to hear because you've been doing, you know, like, that's gonna work better. Another thing I might even add on to what Arlena is saying is to connect it to something they have said, you know, like Something that is true to them. Like if they have talked to you about 12 steps doesn't work for me, or I don't like 12 steps, or this part doesn't work, and then say, hey, you know how you said that? Like you actually had a really good point with that. I actually came across this video where they actually like talked about that specifically. So address it to something that they are going to align with.

Yeah, I would ask—

They're going to be more open to hearing it.

Yeah. What, what they're going to, what people typically complain about are the people, right? Oh, I heard somebody in a meeting say this thing. I don't agree with that. It's like, oh yeah, that's true. And it's the people that tend to be problematic, but the steps are actually, you know, I refer people to the literature all the time. It's like, don't take what people say. Let's go to the, go directly to the source, which is the literature. And go and do the steps.

Right.

Don't get hung up.

People can misinterpret. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Don't get hung up on what people say or how people act. There's no one person that represents the entire organization. You know, I just keep people aren't coming at their best.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Berita, we have one more. We'll do one. We'll pop one more up there if there is one. Okay. Joachim says, have you Have you experienced people who attend meetings, therapy, and still drinking or even attending the drink? Well, I know I have. I bet Arlena has too.

Yeah. I mean, the thing is people don't understand that the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. You don't actually have to stop drinking is the thing. And people who— I was in this space for a while where I didn't want to drink, but I drank Anyway, because I couldn't not drink.

Yep.

That's sort of like the definition of alcoholism. Alcoholism is that you lose the ability to control whether you do or you don't. And so what I didn't realize, what a lot of people don't realize, is there is a switch that gets flipped. There's a trigger and there is a response. And sometimes that switch is flipped so fast that we don't actually recognize Like the moment of choice is just skipped over.

Right.

That's why a lot of times when I do sober coaching, we identify what the triggers are because then when we get underneath what's really going on, then we have like this awareness of what is actually triggering us. 'Cause there is a compulsion to using when you don't want to. And so if we can sort of uncover, like dig in and uncover what is compelling you to drink in the first place, It's typically something you dissociated from because you didn't have the ability to process that pain or resolution.

Something subconscious or—

Yeah, subconscious, right? So yeah, there's a— for a lot of people, there are times when they're going to meetings and relapsing a lot because that, that's a sign of, um, that's a sign of trauma, right?

So what you're saying is, you know, there, there's a group of people that go to meetings and they want want to stop, they're continuing to drink, use, whatever, maybe because they can't, maybe because they haven't realized these triggers. There's also a group of people who go to meetings, therapy, or whatever who continue to use because they have ambivalence about whether or not they want to stop.

Right.

And you used the word earlier, sober curious, which is kind of a word I've been hearing the last few years, which I really like, and that's fine. And if you're the family member, which is great. The fact that they're going and they're, maybe they haven't made their mind up, but the fact that they're going anyway, that's wonderful. And so don't think to yourself, if you're the family member, well, you've been going and it's not helping you. If they're going, it's helping them with something or they wouldn't keep showing up.

So yeah, the thing is, it's the exposure to this stuff is like planting seeds and some of these seeds take years to germinate. But once you sort of have the information, you can't not have it. Like it kind of, it starts working. against your limiting beliefs. Anytime we can take in information, we sort of compare it to the information that we already have, right? And so if you keep coming to the same information over and over again, eventually it will dislodge the existing information.

It's gonna, it's gonna sink in. You're not gonna be able to help it, you know?

Yeah, literally.

It's gonna get in there, right?

Yeah.

And then there's a third group of people that maybe going to therapy or meetings and they're still using. And that's in that group is that's happening because they don't really want to get sober and they don't want to go to meetings and they want to go to therapy. But you've put a contingency on it, like a family member or work or something is forcing them to do it. So they're just doing it to check a box. And that, and that one, I think you've got to be careful of about making meetings a requirement for something, especially if it's like a number of meetings or something, because sometimes you don't mean to, you're trying to subject the person to something that's going to be helpful, but you're setting it up in such a way that they're going to be super resistant to it. And then if you're forcing someone to go and they don't want to be there and they don't like it and they think it's stupid, then they're going to decide that this doesn't help me. So timing is really important. You have to set it up right. And the timing is important. If you force people to go too early, I think it can be counterproductive.

Yeah, with people.

Yeah.

I spent 10 years in tech sales. And one of the things that you learn in sales is not to push people. Because if you push somebody, it creates natural resistance. And my dad actually had this really visceral Um, exercise where he held up his hand. I'll do it on— he held up his hand, he goes, put your hand against mine. And I put my hand against his and he pushed and I naturally pushed back. He goes, why did you push back? And I go, I don't know, because you pushed. And he said, I didn't say anything, but it was your natural instinct to push back. He goes, that is resistance.

Right. And I was like, whoa, your dad is like a He's like a teacher.

Spiritual jiu-jitsu right there, right?

Oh yeah. Right.

Yeah.

And if you want to encourage someone to go to a meeting, you don't want to hit that resistance. What I do with clients is I say, look, sometimes these meetings are super helpful for people and sometimes they're not. So I think you should go try them out. It might not be for you, but I want you to do like at least 3 of them because the first one you're gonna be too nervous to really get a take or whatever. If you give people permission to not buy into it, They'll be more open-minded to buying into it. Whereas if you say, I've had, I've heard people tell me that their therapist says, I'm not going to see you unless you go to 90 meetings in 90 days or something. And I'm like, man, that's just like the worst way ever to program. I mean, there's a lot of programs and therapists that require that, which I think is a bad setup.

How do you feel about bargaining with somebody like, I'll go to Al-Anon and get a sponsor and do the work, my work. If you go to AA and get a sponsor and you do your work.

I'm okay with that. I might word it slightly differently. Like I might say, look, it might be, it is really hard and I don't want to ask you to do something that I'm not willing to do. So I'll do it with you, you know, because I do think going to Al-Anon is helpful if for no other reason, it gives you a taste of what your partner's going through, right? Like what it's like in there. And that it's not perfect and that there are characters in there that are annoying, right? And it gives you appreciation for it, if nothing else.

Yeah. Um, I just think it's so interesting because I was working with this gal. I was working with this, this guy who's a client and talking to his wife. And I was suggesting to her that she go to Al-Anon. She's like, I'm not the problem. He is. And I was like, really? Because you argue with him while he's loaded.

Yeah. And people are really defensive about that the same way you can be about going to, you know, an AA meeting or an NA meeting or whatever. Right. It's so you have to be, you have to be careful about how you set it up, even with the, with the family member. Another thing you can do as the family member is to say something along the lines of, hey, I know I'm not perfect either. I know I got my own issues I need to work on.

Yeah.

So I'll do this with you. I'll go. And it's just saying, I'll do it if you do it. It's not terrible. It's, I would say, is good. But there's a way you can do it that's even better that makes a person go into it more open-minded, because especially if your person is real sensitive to being controlled or power struggles and they're just like hypersensitive about it, then they can see it as, I don't know, they can just see it as a control or a Yeah.

The truth of the matter is, it's like, I was super— I didn't feel good about who I was. And so for someone to confront me on that, be like, you need to change, it made me really defensive. And it made me— it slowed down my— like, it didn't make me feel safe. And what I have found is like, my job as a facilitator is to make somebody feel— help somebody feel safe, create a safe space. for them where they can be honest. And if you have somebody that's constantly calling you out, pointing the finger and stuff, and then you're like, you're not perfect either, right? There's this, you know, when you're pointing your finger at somebody, you have 3 fingers pointing back at you, right? That's like, there's that saying, uh, if you spot it, you got it.

Got it.

You know, there's— people are just mirrors reflecting back to you what you love or don't love about yourself. And it works in the positive too. Like if you see people that you admire, it's like, oh, it's because I have those qualities too. So it's not necessarily a tool to beat somebody up with or ourselves. The idea is to bring compassion to ourselves. It's like, oh, I've had times where I was dishonest. I have had times when I was manipulative. And, and we do those things out of survival skills. Like we don't feel like we have another choice. Like Everything I overdid was because I felt like that's what I needed to do in the moment. Like I didn't have access to other information or other options.

Other options.

So compassion is really important. I know it's hard when you're sort of on the other end, like suffering from somebody else's behavior, but this is important that you, that we all practice self-examination and self-reflection and be really honest about our own shortcomings. That will give somebody else permission to be honest about theirs.

Right. The humility, the vulnerable, it creates the safety, right? We are about out of time. I could talk to you for— I know we could go on and on. Thank you so, so much for joining us. I'm gonna— don't— we're gonna end just a second, but don't leave because I'm gonna get that link from you to put in there to the worksheet so that, so that you guys have that to download. It's free. You can get it. It helps you to work through that resistance like Arlena was talking about. Thank you. Thank you so much. Don't forget, you can find Arlena at the One Day at a Time podcast, right? The YouTube channel is called—

One Day at a Time Recovery Podcast.

There you go. Okay, same thing. And I've got all those links for you in the description. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody.