Addiction/Codependency Expert Reacts to Dr. Curry's Testimony About Amber Heard

If you've been following the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard case, then, you know, it's a big mess. Actually probably about a year or so. Somewhere around there back, I made a video after one of the tapes was released. The secret recordings, I guess, as you call it. Tapes is old school word, isn't it? It tells you how old I am. The recordings was released. I made a video on it. But I've been getting a lot of you guys have been asking me to weigh in on the. The psychology of what is going on, not just in this case, but in this. In these relationship dynamics between Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. And so I thought what we would do today is take a look at what could be going on there from a clinical perspective. But before I get into that, I do need to put my disclaimers out there. If you're new to this channel, I'm amber Hollingsworth. This YouTube channel is primarily about addiction and codependency. And so we're going to be talking about those things as they relate to this case. I am a licensed mental health counselor, a licensed addiction counselor, but I have never treated or met or seen in real life either one of these people. So I am not giving you any kind of official diagnosis. I just thought we would have a conversation about it. I'll tell you how those diagnoses are made, and then I guess we can come up with our own speculation about what could be happening in this case. Now, it's pretty clear and obvious that Johnny Depp has an addiction issue. Like, we don't even need to speculate about that. Everyone agrees on that. He agrees on that. There's no need to even figure out whether it's addiction or not addiction. It's there. And that's one of the things in this case that everyone agrees on. So we're going to just set that diagnosis right there. What is sort of up and up for debate, and there's a lot of controversy about is what in the world is going on with Amber Heard, what could be going on with her? Because clearly this relationship was just a toxic mess for not just the two of them, but even everyone around them. And I don't know if you guys, if you're following the case closely, you may have seen the psychologist who gave her report. Now, this was a psychologist hired by Johnny Depp. I think her name was Dr. Shannon Curry. And she gave her testimony that she assessed Ms. Heard. And she assessed the situation and said that the diagnosis were borderline personality disorder, which we're going to talk A little bit more about histrionic personality disorder. She felt like Ms. Heard had both of those personality disorders, but. But felt like Ms. Heard did not have post traumatic stress disorder. And this is pretty clinically significant because as you're going to be able to see borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. The diagnosis themselves sort of implies or indicates unstable relationships, unstable emotions. We're going to get into that in just a second. A little bit further. But I'm wondering what you guys think. Think about that. Do you. Do you feel like those diagnoses are right on track? Do you feel like that's off base? And if you don't even know what those are, that's okay. That's cool. Because we're going to talk about it and then you can make the decision for yourself. I'm going to try to explain it to you in super easy terms that anyone can understand. And then on top of all that, we're going to mix in codependency into that. Because codependency is. It's a word that a lot of people have a lot of different definitions to. Okay, so let's get clear on when I talk about it, what I mean when I say it. Because a lot of times people say the word codependency means that it's a person that needs other people to like them or whatever. There's that version of how people use the word. But when I use it, I'm going to use it in the classical sense of the term. The, the term initially came out to mean it's codependent, meaning it's a person that's in a relationship with somebody who has an addiction. So the thing of it is, the person who has an addiction has a dependency on the substance or the behavior. And the person that's in the relationship then develops a dependency on the person with the addiction. So the family member, the spouse, the mother, the sister, whoever is in this relationship that cares about the person with the addiction, they become dependent on this person because this person is struggling. They're not doing well. They're. They may have chaos. They may be doing things that are dangerous. And this creates a lot of fear and anxiety in the people around them. And so they become dependent on this person's mood. So this person's chasing a substance and the family member is chasing this person. And it creates its own kind of craziness. I know that's not a clinical term, but I'm gonna explain further what I mean more specifically when I say craziness, because in Our office. This is sort of what we specialize in treating systems where there's an addiction issue. So whole family systems where one person has an addiction and then the whole family system and what happens. So I can tell you that when someone has a substance, an active addiction, the people around them will develop a level of craziness. You can count on it. Very sane, very logical people will fall into this codependency type of behavior. And it's because you're very connected to this person who has an addiction. So you start to make decisions based on fear and desperation. It creates a level of desperation. That's what it does. And so especially if you're married to this person because your. Your life is wrapped up and involved with this person. So when they're sort of being unhinged and they're going off the cliff, you kind of go off the cliff with them. And I can tell you that happens in pretty much every situation, every family situation that we see where someone is living with someone who has an addiction. You almost can't help it, right? It just sucks you in because there's just so much inconsistency and chaos and gaslighting and all the things that we talk about on this YouTube channel, right? It will create a level of craziness. So for someone who's married to someone who says, yes, I have an addiction, to have some kind of desperate, kind of crazy, kind of erratic behaviors is not uncommon at all. So. But let's take a look at the situation with Amber Heard. Do we think that's what's going on with her? Is that what causes this sort of desperate type behavior that you can hear on the secret recorded, I want to call it tapes again, the recordings that were released. And you, you can hear it in all the testimony from these people who witnessed it. I mean, it. It's clear that there's a level of chaos happening in her behavior as well. I don't even. I don't even think that's up for debate. Surely not. The question is, is why? And whose fault is it? And if you want to get into the trial, part of it, you know, is she guilty of defamation? So now that you have sort of a background of codependency and a general expectation that's going to happen to anybody in a relationship, especially somebody's married to somebody who has substance ab problem, you're going to see that kind of craziness. But do we think that's it, or do we think it's more than that? So let's, let's Think about for a second some of what the psychologist that testified, some of what she had to say. Now, I will say this. Apparently this is what I've heard. Apparently that psychologist didn't really feel it was super necessary to disclose that before she met with Amber Heard and performed her professional diagnostic test, she had a dinner meeting with Johnny Depp and I guess some of his team or something like that. There was drinking, there was all this stuff involved. And what happens is, is that makes the, the psychologist look slightly less credible. It makes it look like she's not being objective. Now, I don't know that her diagnosis and what she came to was inaccurate, but it definitely makes it look a little bit not great, if you know what I mean. Because, I mean, she's clearly, you know, on Team Johnny at that point. And so can counselors and clinicians and psychologists. Can. Can we be biased? Absolutely, 100%. And anyone that says that they're not is lying to you, right? It's very difficult. We all have thoughts and feelings. I have thoughts and feelings about this case. Right. I don't think I could be 100% objective about it. That's why I'm telling you Now, I'm not 100% objective about it. So it's such an emotional thing that if you listen to those secret recordings and you listen to the testimony, you're going to have a reaction to it one way or the other. And it's very difficult to put that emotional part away and look at the situation logically, either from a diagnostic point of view or from a legal point of view. It's very difficult. So let's take a look at one of those main diagnoses that Dr. Curry said in her testimony, which was borderline personality disorder. Because I think of the things that most people would agree on, most people might come to. That's probably the conclusion that a lot of people, clinical people, would come to. So let's take a look at what that is. In an overall sense. Borderline personality disorder is a pattern of instability in relationships, self identity and emotional regulation. That's, that's sort of the overall, like, definition. But there are criteria, actual little boxes that you have to check off to be officially diagnosed with this. And I'm going to tell you what they are now. If, if you just have one of these, that does not mean you have borderline personality disorder, but you also do not have to have all of these to get the diagnosis either. Right. You, you've got to show a pattern of these things. So let me. Let Me tell you what they are. And as I tell them to you, if there are pretty clear examples that have been shown in court, in the testimony of these kind of behaviors, then then we'll count that criteria. Some of them. I don't know if there are clear examples of it, but you guys may, because maybe you've seen more of it or you know more about the case than I do. So you guys definitely put those in the comments and let me know if you know if that criteria has been met or if you do, why you think it's met. The first one is chronic feelings of emptiness. Now, it would be really hard for me not having met Ms. Hard to say whether she had that going on or not, because that's her feelings. And someone from the outside can't know what someone else feels on the inside unless they tell you explicitly that and they tell it to you in a way that you believe it. Right. Some of her behaviors would indicate that that's. There's a strong possibility that that's there. But could we count it if we had to go to court, if we had to be in this trial and we had to testify on it, could we count that criteria? I don't think that we could. My guess is that it is there and that if you looked at some of the testing that she did, that there would be evidence of that. But there's not evidence of that as far as behaviorally that's been submitted that I know of. You guys tell me if it's different. Pattern of the next criteria is a pattern of emotional instability. I think we can say that one's there, right? I think we can see that there is this roller coaster of emotion that shifted in conversations from minute to minute, from hour to hour, and definitely from day to day. There, there's a. There's an up and a down and I love you, I hate you, I can't stand you come back kind of thing going on. And not only can you see that in context with the relationship with Mr. Depp, if you listen to some of the testimony of the other people that were sort of around or witnesses or that sort of thing, many of them have sort of testified that there was an emotional instability either towards them or that they witnessed as well. So if it were just only towards Johnny Depp, then I might say maybe that's a codependency thing. Right? But because you're hearing evidence of it being more pervasive than that, I'm going to go ahead and count that one. You guys let me know what you think the next diagnostic criteria is frantic efforts to avoid abandonment. Now, I think that one is there. And the reason I'm going to go ahead and say that that one is there is because in a lot of the arguments, when you listen to them, you can hear her say, but you left. But you left. And what's happening is, is, is Mr. Depp is, you know, the situation's getting heated and chaotic and out of control, and his tendency is to leave. You've heard a fight or flight before. He's a fleer and she's a fighter. And so you've got this. He goes away and she goes towards him, and then he goes away. I mean, you can hear the testimony of him hiding in the bathrooms, him leaving the hotel rooms, him going to another place. And it makes her. It's very triggering for her. I think that's pretty clear. We don't even have to have a lot of debate about it, right? Because she, she says that. She screams that like lots and lots and lots of times. She, she says it out loud. I can't believe you would do that. You know, and you can see that there's this desper. Separation and this fear that when he leaves those situations, that he's leaving her. And that's what's creating that little dynamic right there, is what's creating most of the chaos that's going on in that system. That's my theory. The next criteria for borderline personality disorder is identity disturbance. And what that means is it's kind of like not a strong, solid sense of who you are. And it may seem like you're different people at different times. Not like dissociative identity disorder. Like there are like literally 10 different people living inside your head. Not like that, but that your mood is so different, your likes, your dislikes change so radically, and your, Your overall sense of self esteem, self confidence, and, and just the, the solid feeling of, you know, who you are and what you stand for is just not consistent. When someone has borderline personality disorder, I don't know if we can say that one or not. It's. It's kind of like that other one. I, I feel like it probably is there, but I don't, I don't really hear or I don't really. I haven't really seen any concrete evidence of that. So I don't know that I can give this one. What do you guys think? Is there some evidence out there that I don't know of that might fit this criteria? The next one is impulsive behavior. That is Self destructive in at least two areas. So let me give you some examples of impulsive self destructive behavior. Suicidal ideation, self harm attempts, reckless driving, impulsive spending, impulsive sexual behaviors, binge eating. It's like making impulsive decisions. But. But to the point that it's. It's really bad for you and it's causing a lot of harm in your life, you got to have that criteria in. In at least two areas. So it would be like if the person had impulsive sexual behaviors and impulsive spending behaviors, that would count that criteria. So it's like a criteria that has criteria. I know that one's a little bit more complicated and I haven't heard any evidence of that one. I don't know. Have you? I don't know for sure. I don't know that it's not there. I don't know that is there. I do see impulsive behavior and in some ways the fighting might almost fall into this kind of category. So again, my hunch is that it's there, but I don't know that I could prove it if I had to. The next one is. The next criteria is inappropriate or intense anger. Do we have to talk about it? I don't think so. Right. It's clearly there. If you've seen any of it, you know that that is there. We don't even have to discuss that one anymore. The next one is. The next criteria is a pattern of instability and intensity in relationships. So it's unstable, very intense relationship patterns. And this is really prob at the crux of borderline personality disorder. And some of that that such a big symptom of it and that one really kind of connects to the abandonment symptom. So it's like the frantic abandonment fear can lead to the instability in relationships. A lot of times people with borderline personality, so they tend to kind of see people in black and white terms and they really fluctuate and it can be pretty quickly in how they feel about the other people around them. Like oftentimes someone has borderline personality where they may decide that they really like someone and feel very close to the person very quickly out the gate and they just think they're the most wonderful person that they've ever met. It doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship. Could be a friendship or co worker or different kind of relationship. And then if that person does something or they perceive that person does something that doesn't fit with how they saw that person in their mind. It's almost like instead of seeing that person as like a gray area or a human or you know, like, like we all are with our, with our pros and our cons. It in their mind it will be like a villain. So they'll sort of fluctuate between hero and villain and the way that they see other people. And, and I feel like there's probably pretty clear evidence of that in the relationship with Johnny Depp. I don't know if we have clear evidence of that in relationships with other people. Again, I suspect it probably is there, but, but I don't know that there's evidence of it. The next one is suicidal behavior, gestures or self harm. When a person has borderline personality disorder, that mood dysregulation, that identity inconsistency, that impulsiveness can lead to this type of behavior, it depression, anxiety, all of those things, even though they're not listed as symptoms, pretty much almost always come along with someone has borderline personality disorder. And my guess is in many, many, many cases of people that have borderline personality disorder, there's usually some trauma in the past, not always, but a lot of the times. And that's why it was so interesting when the, the doctor that testified said I think she has this but not this, but you will see self harming type behaviors. And by self harm, because I'm in the mental health world, I just take it for granted. Everyone knows what that means, but it could mean like cutting, picking, substance abuse, stuff like that. And then lastly, if you see me looking this, because I'm looking at my notes here, there, there can be a tendency, a fluctuation, an on and off kind of tendency for paranoia, especially under a lot of stress or even dissociative symptoms. And when they get, when the person gets in, in these extreme states, so when the stress gets really up and the intensity really gets up, you can see some more heavier type symptoms. So those are the criteria. What do you think? There's a lot of what you can see and hear in this trial that would make me think that probably this would be an accurate diagnosis. Like I said, I can't diagnose them because I haven't met them. But if we're guessing and we're just chatting, my guess is that it probably is there because there's concrete evidence for a good amount of it and there's hints that a lot of the other criteria are there. So I'm wondering, I'm wondering how you guys see that. Do you know anybody that has this? Have you struggled with this? You know, how would you weigh in on it? So thinking. Thinking of it through that lens. Personality disorder. Now, I'm not going to go into all the criteria for histrionic personality disorder. There is some overlap between the two. But in general, what I can tell you is in histrionic personality disorder, there's a dramaticness to the person. It's kind of like. And this isn't the official criteria, this is just me explaining it to you. It's kind of like the person needs attention all the time, and they may do extreme things to get that attention. Like, they may dress in really extreme ways. They may do things that are very sort of shocking. If they're in a group full of people, they may have crises and emergencies and medical issues sort of urgently because there's a pull of attention that's not the whole thing, but that's just a general sense to help you kind of get an idea wrapped around what that is. So when we look at codependency and we look at borderline personality disorder, my guess is that they're probably both there. Right. And I think all the factors coming together, when you look at all the different pieces of the puzzle, you could see why this ended up being such a giant mess. Now, that's what I think. Diagnostically, what do we think legally? Kevin, really going over this in my own head, because I knew it's going to this video and trying to decide what do I think legally? And it's really hard to be honest because emotionally, it's an easy answer for me. Emotionally, I want to say, yes, it was defamation. And yes, he said, she said he was abusive. And maybe he wasn't. Great, but she was pretty abusive herself. Right. But if you look at the legal criteria for defamation, it's. It's basically when someone knowingly lies about someone else with malice. So it's like I'm telling a lie on you on purpose in order to mess up your reputation. Right. And the key pieces there is lie on purpose and malice. Right. And so you have to sort of prove all these little pieces to really say, like, legally, you know, can he win his lawsuit? I think that the malice part, my guess is this is there the knowingly lie part. This is the part. And this is where sort of it gets fuzzy for me, like my personal emotions versus my clinical knowledge and all that kind of stuff is, did she purposefully lie? Well, it's complicated because I think it's very, very clear that the story she told had a lot of omitted pieces. And I'm going to say what I tell my clients, my clients might Say, well, I didn't lie about it. And I would say, well, you purposefully omitted this big chunk of the story in order to make it look a certain way. So what I say about that is, you did purposefully deceive. That's. That's just my. Really. When I'm talking to my clients about it, the ones who have addictions, if they say, well, I didn't lie to my wife about it, I'm like, yeah, but you left that out on purpose. And you knew it was an important detail that was relevant to the situation that your wife would want to know. Right. It's one thing if you forget to say something because you didn't even realize it was important or somebody wants to know it or like, that that's not purposeful, right? But when you tell a story, maybe it's a true story, but you leave out really integral parts of it on purpose to make it look a certain way. That, to me, is purposeful deception, where it gets complicated for me, because I would say, you know, my first gut instinct says, yeah, that's purposeful deception because she left out, like, maybe he said and did these mean things, but I did this to him first or whatever, Which. Which I think is clearly relevant to the. To the storyline. Right? But one of the things that I know about dealing with people that are struggling with any of these things, we've talked about substance abuse, codependency, personality disorder. This is the knowingly part that comes in there. When you're in a situation like this, the person's thoughts are pretty irrational and delusional. And so what happens is people convince themselves of stories. Like, I see it all the time in my clients who are struggling with an addiction. Right. Like, they convince themselves of a narrative. Right. And it may not be true, and it may be a lie, or it may be, you know, definitely not an accurate representation of what's going on. But. But they're convinced of it. And I think that's the part where it gets really fuzzy for me, because I don't know for sure if she knowingly. Like, if she was completely consciously aware of what was happening or she had built up this narrative in her head because of this frantic fear of abandonment and the chaos that was happening in relationships. Like, did she feel like that was happening? Isn't that complicated? Isn't that confusing? Is it a lot? Yeah, I think it's a lot because I think it's probably just an outright lie, but I definitely think there was so much omitted there that it was a purposeful it was a deception. Right. But. But we've all convinced ourselves of things. Right? And we've all for sure heard other people that tell you their side of a story, and. And they're not necessarily lying to you, but they're very convinced of it. And the reason I know it's because this happens every single day in my office. Like, every day, in fact, in my office, we don't see people without seeing the whole family. Like, if I see a husband, I want to see the wife, you know, because everybody's story is slanted. And sometimes people don't tell you the truth because they're purposely. They don't want to tell you for whatever reason. Maybe they're embarrassed or maybe they're getting in trouble or whatever. And then other times, people just don't tell you the whole story of truth because it's just that they're telling you their story from their lens. And I think that's where this can get very complicated. Like was when she wrote the. The piece, the article, did she believe what she was saying? Which doesn't really seem fair because. Right. Because it's kind of like, well, if you lied on somebody and you run the career about it, even if you believe it's not. Right. And you shouldn't do that. Right. But that's where. In the legal part, that's where to me, it can get complicated. So what was my heart say? My heart say, I'll vote for Johnny all day long and say, not. Right. Right. But when you're on a jury, you have to really look at what does the law say? Does it meet the criteria? And I'm not. I'm not 100. Sure. I want to know what you guys think. Let's see who's with us live. If you're joining us on the replay. Definitely join the conversation. I go back and read all of these comments. All right, let's see. We got a lot of people here with us. Hey. Hey. Brandon. Recovery tv and Karen. Brandon is asking, what is. What's his addiction? He talks primarily about an opioid addiction. But. But you can also hear of a lot of conversations about abusing. Other things like alcohol, cocaine, other substances come into the mix. But. But he. He talks specifically about having had an opioid addiction. Hey, Steven, I seen your name in a while on kit. Megan says. Exactly. It's a system that both people are contributing to. Yeah, it's. It's. It's a toxic combination of a mess. I didn't even mention this. And I'll just throw this out there at you. But if I were looking at a situation for real, clinically, I would say that there's an attachment issue going on for sure with Ms. Herdside and possibly even with, with Mr. Depp's side. And when you look, when you listen to his childhood, you can kind of see how or why he developed the defense mechanism of the retreat of the flea. Right. Because that's, that's hardwired into him. You can hear that in the examples from his childhood, how he dealt with things. You know, it's like just get out of the way or just don't say something or just don't upset the person. And it gets even more sort of psychologically interesting in the fact that the abuse came from his mom. So there's like trauma from women going. I don't want to go too Freud on you here, but it's definitely interesting to me. Megan says Amber Heard is also immature, unskilled in dealing with issues. But it was truly crappy of her to write an op ed that was published in the Washington Post. Yes. And there's a big age difference, right, between them. You know, Johnny Depp, he's. He's been married or at least been in long term relationships. Was he. Man, I think, I don't know if he was officially married, but anyways. And he has had kids and he's just has a lot more life experience than she does. But I think what you're saying is she's immature even for her age. Not. I think what Megan's saying is not just immature compared to Johnny because of age, but emotionally immature in general. Ellen says that was just the interview though. Let's see here. Sarad says, let's say Amber Heard is announced guilty from the jury. Will she get jailed for her violence? That's a good question. I know because I think this trial is a lawsuit. It's about money. So the. This isn't a criminal case. This is a civil case. It's about money. And so if she gets found guilty, she have to pay some money. I think that's how that works. So she will not be jailed for that violence in this case, however, should she have been is a whole nother question. We could do like a whole big video on that. What do you think, sir? I'm. Let's see. Goat says they were both toxic, they have. Both have psychological disorders and both of their faults. And once mixed together, it was like a ticking time bomb. I'm gonna have to agree with you there. Don't think I can argue with that whatsoever. Debbie is asking. Different attachment styles. I do have some videos on my channel about attachment styles if you want to learn more in depth. But in general, there's four basic attachment styles. They are called secure attachment, insecure attachment. Sometimes insecure attachment is also called anxious attachment. You may hear it called either way, avoidant attachment and then insecure avoidant. So let me tell you what they mean. Secure attachment is someone that feels fairly secure in their. Their identity. They feel fairly secure in relationships in general. So they don't tend to get overly triggered by relationships. Whereas if someone has an anxious relationship style, they tend to really worry about their relationships. They think about their relationships a lot. This is the kind of person be perceived as more clingy. They need more interaction from the other person to know that everything's okay. There's this fear of losing the relationship and that fear drives this sort of anxiety which, which can make them go towards the other person even more. On the opposite end of that spectrum is what's called avoidant. Avoidant attachment style, which is where there's like a fear of closeness in relationships. And so it's not like a person that is avoidant can't. Doesn't want to be in relationships, but they tend to do the opposite. Instead of running towards, they run away. That is the very sort of most simplistic way to put it to you. And then the last one is called insecure avoidant. And it's like a mix up of the anxious and the avoidant which is a big mass which is kind of like this push, real push, pull, dynamic. And someone that has this is going to have probably some really tumultuous relationships is what I would say that that is the basic. That is super. I feel like I didn't do that justice overview. But there's a ton of videos on my channel about that or not a ton, but a few. And there's a ton of videos of it on YouTube. In general though, Okay. Ellen says not a criminal case, but Australia is looking at her for the dog lies. Okay. Are you serious? Like, is that a thing? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic and joking, like for real. I don't know. Ellen says her assistant described her transformation a few years ago. That's really interesting because if it's a personality disorder, I didn't mention this. If it's a personality disorder, you'll see those symptom patterns haven't been present from early adulthood. So you can diagnose borderline personality disorder after someone is at least 18 but it wouldn't. You wouldn't have borderline personality disorder, like, if you didn't have it, like, your whole life and then Suddenly you turned 30, and then all of a sudden you had symptoms like that. Personality disorder doesn't work like that. Like, you could. You can live your whole life and then suddenly be diagnosed depression because it came on right. Or suddenly diagnosed anxiety or suddenly diagnosed ptsd, because that can come on suddenly like that. The thing with personality disorders are these. These are pervasive patterns that are interwoven in who you are. So there. There can be things that trigger it up and make it worse at times, but it's. You usually can't look back at someone and say, like, they weren't like that until they were 40. Like, so that's interesting, Ellen, that you're saying that about the. About the assistant, saying that she changed. And I don't. I didn't mention this because it's a whole other video as well, but there's some pretty significant evidence in there that Ms. Heard also has a substance abuse problem now that if you factor that into the mix, you could see symptoms all of a sudden come on. That were not there before that that could be an explanation. If. If somebody has developed a substance use disorder, they may have erratic, irrational behaviors that look like any number of mental health disorders. People that come to see me to have addiction have usually been diagnosed everything under the sun before they got to see me. Because when you're doing drugs or drinking or whatever or even other addictions, your brain chemicals are up and down, up and down and up and down, which causes mood instability, anxiety, relationship disturbance. So that would be an interesting conversation. And the way I would figure that out is I would have to sort of interview a lot of people that knew Ms. Heard before the relationship with Johnny Depp, and I would have to get a feel for how she was before. If. If these symptoms were not there before, then it would lead me to think that either it was a codependency issue happening that just got out of control, or it was a substance abuse issue on. On her side and his side that got out of control, not a personality disorder. Sophie says, hey, Amber is. If Amber is borderline personality disorder, then what do you think of the outcome of this? Will Johnny Depp? When I feel hooked into this trial and I worry we're all watching Amber's downfall, I hope she gets help. I agree with you. The thing of it is, and I don't know that jurors really understand this, I understand it just because, you know, I'm in the mental health field, you know, day in and day out. So when I hear borderline personality disorder, to be honest, fairly or not fairly, if I. If somebody says this person has that, then I would probably meet pretty quickly, like reflexively make a judgment that the relationship was probably not how they had presented it. That's probably unfair, but it's true. But I don't know how much jurors understand that, like, if they'll make that immediate. I don't know how heavily the diagnosis weighs on the minds of the jurors, because I don't know how you know, how much they really know about that. And even if they know about it, like, even if they know these criteria, if you haven't lived it and you haven't seen it, you probably don't understand, understand it in a big picture kind of way to really get the intensity and the emotional volatility that goes on. Wendy says yes, for inappropriate and intense anger. Check. Yeah, check the box. That one we don't even have to talk about. That's right. So Rod says, okay, if the case favors Depp, can he file a criminal case? And what would be the chances of heard being behind bars? Another really good question, and I think I know the answer to this. The reason I only know the answer is because I follow true crime all the time, not because I know anything professionally about legal world. But legal charges are generally pressed by the cops or the state, not by civilians. And so I don't know that Johnny Depp could charge her. Like, Johnny Depp could make a report if it happened at the time of domestic violence, and then the. The police court or whoever involved in the legal system could then charge her with it. But Johnny, like one person, like, I can't come and charge you with something legally. It just doesn't. It doesn't really work like that. I think I've got that right. If I'm watching, if there's anybody watching that's like a legal person, you guys can call me out if I'm wrong. But I think that's how it works. But I would say know that Johnny Depp could call. That could do it. Could the legal system come back on the back end? They could. I seriously doubt that they would because it's so far after the fact. Ellen says he could, but he wants to clear his name, not destroy her. Let's see here. Megan says yes. Lying by omission is still deception. Yeah. When you're purposefully omitting. I'm going to call It a lie if you omit because you just didn't think it was relevant. Like I. I omitted. I didn't tell you what I had for lunch today. But I wasn't deceiving you. Right? Like I said, I don't think y' all care. Right. But there's a difference. And we all know what that difference is. And we can hide behind that thing of I didn't lie like he did do that. But come on, now we know better. Daniel says Dr. Curry viewed previous medical records that stated she complained of feelings of emptiness. Thank you. See, I did not hear that part. And that's good because that is a little piece of evidence. Right? Especially if it's in a medical record. So that would mean we would. We might want to consider checking that box. Good call. Let's see. So Sophie says, yeah, I can imagine that I have felt so shocked by my addicted husband's behavior that I felt like I was worse than what actually happened because it was so unlike him. Yes. Living with someone that has an addiction is trauma. It can cause real trauma. You can develop real symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder. Just living with someone that has an addiction, like full out anxiety disorder, for sure. Because what happens is over the long course of time, you are living in such fear. And the fear could be like constantly thinking, like, what if this person dies? What if this person gets in a wreck and kills somebody? Maybe the person becomes aggressive or violent when they're intoxicated or in withdrawal. And that leaves you feeling terrified. So. And after you go through that for a long time, it can and will. It will change who you are. It will change how you interact with that other person. So many times people that are in relationships with substance use disorders, the other people. So you got the addict, you got the close family member, usually like the parent or the spouse or somebody. And then you got all these outsiders like the extended family and friends. The extended family and friends usually think that the family member is the crazy one. Crappy, huh? It's true. And the reason is because the family member is the crazy one, is a crazy one. But what they don't see is all the behind the scenes stuff that's making the family member crazy. So that's. I'm glad you said that, Sophie, because that's really why I wanted to sort of talk about this case and pull apart. Because could his addiction cause the other person to have very erratic, irrational cat behavior? Yes, it could. And anyone who's been married to someone with a substance problem will get on here and tell You. That I promise. Ellen says we see different drafts in the emails. I didn't see the emails part. I'd be interested in that. I haven't followed every single bit of it because it's too much been going on. Like this case. They try serial killers in less time than they've tried this case right here. So I haven't seen every bit of it. Hey, Anthony. Debbie says supposedly the editors at WaPo made her remove Depp's name from the article for legal reasons. That may be accurate. You're probably right about that, Debbie. But even if, even if she didn't put his name in there, everybody knew who she was talking about. Know it's kind of like the omission thing. Saying, I didn't lie. Like, oh, I didn't say it was him. Come on now. That's what I would say. Not to you, Debbie, but if that, if that's sort of what they want to claim or what she wants to claim, like, I didn't say that was him. Like, come on, like, you might not have said that was him. That would be like a lie, but opposite of omission or something. I don't know what it would be. Let's see. Renee says, can anyone be diagnosed with a mental disorder like bipolar, schizoaffective disorder, etcetera, while abusing their drug of choice even after 30, 60, or 90 days sober from a drug of choice? Very good clinical question, Renee. Yes, the answer to that is yes. People can and most often do get diagnosed with all kinds of mental health disorders, even when actively using. Now, I think sometimes they get wrongly diagnosed. A lot of times I think people get wrongly diagnosed because, like I said, when you're abusing drugs or alcohol, you literally have symptoms of every mental health disorder you can. So I think it's very difficult to make an accurate diagnosis when someone's accurately using. The only way you can really do that with some amount of, like, effectiveness would be asking them a lot of questions about what was going on before the substance abuse started and maybe even looking at old records and maybe even interviewing, like, family or friends or something. Because if you can show that those diagnostic criteria were there before and during, then the likelihood is, yes, you could give someone that diagnosis. Unfortunately, a lot of people show up to doctors and psychiatrists, stuff like that, and they, they just leave out the whole part about I'm drinking a handle of vodka day, you know, like. And so. But they tell the other parts. That's. That's one of those, like, lies by omission thing. And then they get diagnosed with all these things because they're not. They didn't tell the clinician the whole story about the substances they were using, which a lot of times leads to misdiagnosis and indefinitely bad advice and bad therapy, I can tell you that. So great question. It is probably a safer bet to wait until someone has been sober for a few months to give a diagnosis, especially a big diagnosis like some of the ones you listed, like bipolar disorder or schizoaffective disorder, for those of you who don't know what that is. Schizoaffective is a combination. It's like a mix up between bipolar disorder, which is a mood disorder, and schizophrenia, which is a psychotic disorder. So it's like a meshing of the two. So you have the mood symptoms and the psychosis. Ellen said she was serious about the dog. The dog smuggling law. See, I don't know about. I know about the dog and the poo and Sam, but I don't know about the smuggling thing. So that's interesting. I'll have to go back and look at that. AJ says that the op ed was ghost written by someone else. Maybe JD has a bigger case. I think I could be wrong on this, AJ but I think Johnny Depp did try to go after the Washington Post, but he didn't win that case. And then he came after Amber heard. Am I wrong? I totally could be wrong, but I think. I think that's what I heard. It was says. And the fact she was adopted as a child in all of this. Yes. See, if someone's adopted as a child, chances are having an attachment disorder way up there, right? Way up there. So it really is all of these factors, you know, his substance abuse, her substance abuse, her attachment issues. I think we could with a clear conscious easily say that those factors were there, right? I don't know for sure. We could say personality disorder or not. Like us, the psychologist evaluator could, but not us. But we could all clearly say, yeah, there's attachment problems and substance abuse problems on both sides. Let's see here. David says what symptoms, if any, do you see in Johnny? You definitely see the substance abuse symptoms in him. I'm not sure that I would. If there's any other mental health thing that would jump out to me just from what I've done, listened to or I've seen. My guess is if I had to guess, like there's not evidence for this. But my guess is because he has quite a bit of trauma in his past that he has some trauma related stuff going on. Probably would get a diagnosis of PTSD or something like that. Yeah. That's just a guess though. Kathy says that's what she was wondering how much of his behavior was in response to his addiction. I think this is one of those things that his addiction triggered some things with her. Although I think some of her behaviors have probably been longer standing and. But I also think his addiction was being triggered by her behavior. So I think it was like a back and forth triggering back and forth, back and forth. The hearing will be taking a week long break Sauces. I didn't know that. Dang. I wanted, I want to find out the like ending of this. I didn't know it's going to take a week long. Is it going to be like once his side gets done it's a week long and then her side. Is that what it is? So. Ellen said, oh, I forgot about this. Ellen, you're right. She was arrested for hitting her girlfriend or wife before Johnny. I did say that in my first video I made but it was like a year ago and I forgot about that. So that's another piece of evidence that these behaviors have been long standing before Johnny was around. My guess is if we went back and could talk to a lot of the people she stated. My guess is we get a long laundry list of that these behaviors have been there. But total speculation, total guess. Debbie says I can't tell with Depp about his testimony yet. Maybe because his cadence is so slow or he is very carefully choosing his words. Time will tell. You know, I'm glad you said that too Debbie because on the first day of the trial when I was listening to him testify, he, he seemed so slow. He seemed like he maybe was on like a Benzo or something. Something Total guess like I don't know. But that's the thought that I had is to me it looked like he was on a Benzo as some of the days have gone on and he says five his cadence has been faster and, and I was watching it thinking, you know, is he trying to choose his words carefully? I think that that is a component of what's happening. I do think that but there was just like a, a slowness of speech. Now he tends to have like a quietness about him. So it's really hard to tell what's what up. So but it's definitely noticeable. I'm not sure exactly why but it's definitely pretty easily noticeable. Hey Chris from Liverpool, thanks for joining us. Renee says JD's behavior from what I'VE seen of the testimony was not normally explosive. So what triggered her or did she trigger him? That's a really good point. And honestly, if I. One of the biggest factors is exactly what Renee is saying here that comes into my mind is the fact that, you know, he's 50 something years old, he's been in a lot of relationships and there's never been anyone come forward and say that he's been abusive, violent, emotionally, physically, anything. Right. I know what you could be thinking, right, that it could definitely happen that those people didn't come forward and, and that Amber heard is the first one that came forward. That can happen. Right. But I don't think that's what happened. The reason I don't think that's what happened is because not only did those other like ex people not come forward, but they did come forward when she made these accusations. To say specifically, I have never seen a behavior like that, right. So I could kind of buy it if like no one else ever reported it and she was the first. But I don't buy it if you have all these other exes coming in and they're saying no, like he never did that, right. Like, because if he had nan reporter, they just keep their mouth shut, right. Or maybe they might come forward and do the whole me too thing. Right. But they didn't. So I, I think exactly what Renee thinks. And that's probably the biggest swaying piece of evidence and information in my mind. That kind of makes me like on, on the depth side, Megan says, I was shocked that Johnny blamed her for withholding his detox meds. From what I know, you can't give meds until 24 hours have elapsed, otherwise you go into participated withdrawal. Okay, this is a addiction question here. All right. I didn't hear that testimony about her holding the detox meds. In some of the secret recordings I heard she was giving them drugs. So I mean you literally, she was like here, here's your Xanax or whatever. But the, the only kind of med that you really can't give for 24 hours. Megan, as far as detox is concerned, there are a few op withdrawal medications that you have to wait on specifically. Like if it were Vivitrol, sometimes they make you wait for Suboxone, something like that. But depends on what the withdrawal was from. If it was from alcohol or something else, then there's not a 24 hour waiting period. So it would depend specifically on the, the medication itself and what the withdrawal was from. But there was like a doctor and A nurse that worked there. So I would think that that would been handled anyway by someone else. Kit says, when I was in active addiction, I would pick troubled partners. Not consciously, but I felt like stable people wouldn't put up with my behaviors. That's a great point. Right. You know, did his addiction come in that way that he pulled her in? The question is, I don't know, because he was in recovery for a long time, and I don't know exactly when the relapse happened, but it was somewhere during all this. I don't know if it was right before her, right after her. So he was in a long term, good, healthy, stable relationship, and then he got himself in this mess. Bad decision. Megan says, I think Johnny's totally on the up and up. Hold on. It moved and now I can't see it. No, I lost it because there was two more comments that came on here. Flana says they are both toxic. But as far as defamation, Johnny should win the case because he tried to portray him in a way that is obviously not an accurate portrayal. I agree with what you're saying there. She definitely tried to portray him in a way that is obviously not an accurate portrayal. That's a good common sense statement, and I agree with it. But when it comes to the law, it's like it's got to match up the letter of the law. And sometimes the letter of the law is just not as easy as good common sense. I wish it was, but sometimes it's not. It's harder to prove. Right. But what you said right there, I 100 agree on. If that was it. If the question was, did he? Did she do this? And I would say yes. I wouldn't even have to think about it for five minutes. You wouldn't need two weeks of testimony to convince me of that. Like, I would say, yes, Allison says, seems like they were both addicted to toxic relationships. I've known a lot of people that were great with everyone else, but relationship bonkers. Allison. That's a great point. And. And the first thing that comes to my mind when you say that, Allison, is that probably if they're great in every other aspect and they don't show that kind of toxic toxicness in any other area, then I would say there's probably an attachment issue going on there. And that only. That's why you only see it showing up in, like, a romantic relationship type. That's a total wild guess. Thanks, everyone, for hanging out with me. I hope it was fun for you. It was fun for me to get to sort of talk about it, because if you, like me, you've been kind of watching it and keeping up with it. And it is very interesting from personal perspective and from a clinical perspective. If you're new here and you want more information, education about addiction and codependency and how to get out of those kind of situations, then definitely you might want to consider subscribing because there is a ton of information on this channel about that. See you guys next time.