Advice For Anyone Who Has An Addicted Loved One

The holidays are coming up and if you have an addicted loved one in your life, you might be stressing about several things. About the Christmas events, how to handle those. Do you invite the person, do you not, how to act. And there's also this whole other dilemma about gift giving. What's enabling and what's not? How do you handle that? How do you be supportive and loving but not fall into enabling? And also, how do you not be offensive to the person while you balance all of those other dilemmas? And so, because it's such a complicated topic, we have several experts, I call them expert witnesses here to talk to us about this. Because I want you guys to get a lot of different perspectives on this topic as you go into this holiday season and make decisions about it. So I will let you introduce yourself. We'll start with David and then Dana and Molly. If you guys will introduce yourselves too, that would be awesome.

Hi, everybody. My name is David Marion. I'm a certified intervention professional, certified recovery coach and advocate, co author of a book called Addiction Rescue, the no BS Guide to Recovery. Helped create legislation on the first opioid epidemic, Legislation in Minnesota and 12 other states followed. Been involved with the CDC and PBS on documentaries on the opioid epidemic, and been a man in long term recovery. So nice to be here.

Great. Nice to have you, David. So you've got a professional and personal experience.

That's right. A little combo platter. Yes.

That's great.

That's awesome.

Lived it and lived through it. Yes.

There you go. And Dana, will you introduce yourself to us?

I will. So I will start off by saying I am David's ex wife and the co author of Addiction Rescue. I am a certified recovery coach, certified family addictions coach, and also an interventionist. And I'm, you know, an advocate for any family struggling on either side of the addiction equation, whether you're in addiction or you are dealing with someone else's addiction. Here to, you know, help and support in any way I can. So I'm always happy to be back with you, Amber. So thank you.

Thanks for coming back. Glad to have you. And Molly, last but not least, tell us about you.

Hello, everybody. I am Molly Desh. I am a certified life coach. I was a heavy drinker for two decades and now I coach women on sobriety who are looking to get free from alcohol. Glad to be here again.

I am so excited we have such a good panel to have this discussion because we can just look at it from all of these different perspectives. So before we jumped on here, everybody that's watching. David was jumping in there and he was giving some good advice away. And I told him. I was like, stop, stop. Or Dana told him to stop. Wait. Because we want you to say that on when the people are on here because they want to hear this. So we're going to jump right into the topic about gift giving. And I want to hear from each of you because I think we each have a slightly different perspective. And because there's no one size fits all answer, I want people to hear all the different ideas and options about it so that you can find the option that's best for you because everybody's situation is slightly different. So love to hear from any of you guys who want to jump in there. Jump in there. Tell us, what is your thoughts about the gift giving? Because people stress about this so much.

Amber, I think you should continue about that stress. Just so if people are wondering, what does she mean it's stressful? Just kind of go into what causes the stress for people, and then we can go into how to handle it.

I'm glad you reminded me of that, because it's so obvious in my head, I forget to just say it. I think the reason that it's so stressful is because you don't want to be rude and you. But you also don't want to enable somebody, and you don't know how to sort of navigate this awkward situation without making someone feel really, like, in the spotlight. And, you know, all their stuff's in the air, but you really sort of go back and forth in your head, you know, do I give them a gift? Is it okay to give someone, like, a gift card? It's probably not okay to give them money, you know, but what if I give them a gift and then they return it or pawn it and they use the money for drugs? Am I, like, contributing? And you just get yourself all in a tizzy. And I'm speaking from a person who is not only just an addiction professional, but I come from a family where addiction is everywhere. And I've had this struggle, you know, I've had this whole dilemma year after year in my own head about what do you do? Not just at holidays. This applies to birthdays and other kind of situations when it comes to gift giving. So that. That is the dilemma.

Well, I don't mind jumping in since nobody else is. First thing I want to reiterate, Amber, is it is different for everybody and. And the situation. And people know their family members and their. What their disease has led them to do, whether it's pawning stuff or there. I can't think of a gift you can give that's not returnable. I mean, even if it's a gift card, you can stand outside the store or the restaurant and sell it, you know, and get money. So, I mean, if that's really a concern, and you. Your loved one has been known to do that, I don't know that any gift is appropriate unless you actually give them food. Harry and David. It's like a great option. Coffees, you know, obviously, whatever your loved one likes. But any kind, if you're worried about, they can return it, pawn it, get money for it. I can't think of a scenario they wouldn't. So you got to use your best judgment as to how your family member acts in those situations or has presented in the past. Is that something that they would do? That was my first thought.

So what you're saying, Dana, is there's no, like, surefire, solid answer to it. Like, sometimes people say, well, I'll just get them, like, some chick fil a gift cards and some, you know, little places I know they eat or something like that. But no matter how hard you try, there's really no surefire way. Because if you're dealing with someone with a pretty severe addiction, they can turn anything into money.

Yeah.

It's like a superpower.

Yeah.

Yeah. I've even had clients tell me that they've taken groceries back to the store. So, I mean, I feel like we get so in our heads and we're trying to sort of outsmart it, but you can't. You can't outsmart it that way. I don't think it's so complicated.

And maybe the thing, too, is to say to your loved one, especially if they're an early recovery. You know, I want to be appropriate. I don't want to tempt you by giving you something that would pull you back into past behaviors. You know, what could I give you that would be appropriate that you would appreciate that wouldn't pull a trigger for you and say, oh, I took that and got money for it once. I could do that again. So, like we've talked about in the past, just ask them. Sometimes that's the very best thing to do, too.

Right. Like, if they're in a good place with it and the conversations on the table, the if it. If it's sort of out in the open, the best thing to do is just talk about it out in the open so that it's just not all weird and awkward and behind their back and Stuff like that. That's not a good. Yeah, I like that. David or Molly, do either one of y' all have any thoughts on this idea?

Well, I was going to share something that I noticed from corporate. Like, working in the corporate environment is office parties. Like, if you go out to a restaurant and it's a white elephant gift or something, almost always there's at least a couple people that bring a bottle of booze. And so I just want people to be cognizant if you do get invited to an office party that you never know who's going to be there. Maybe somebody is in early recovery and forego the cheap bottle of wine or, you know, Jagermeister or whatever you want to bring and get something that is funny and hilarious instead. Because you never know who's going to end up with that gift. And it might be somebody that probably that might not. That shouldn't have that.

That's such a good point. Because when you bring in something like that and it's one of those, like, Christmas, either, like, you. You draw it out of a pile, or like you said, like the white elephant, you don't know who's going to end up with it.

Right, Exactly.

I never thought about that. That's really smart. I'm glad you said that, Molly. Yeah.

So my thoughts are a little different than everyone else's.

Good, good.

You know, listen, I'm a guy that's really gonna talk about the elephant in the living room, right? We're not gonna dance around it and pretend. We're not gonna change the name on it. We're not gonna change our narrative. The greatest gift you can give someone is the gift of desperation. We can offer them maybe treatment, maybe therapy. Hey, you know what I'm gonna get you? I'm gonna get you 10 meditative sessions or 10 yoga sessions somewhere you can practice and learn to quiet the noise. I'm not going to give you money. I'm not going to give you food. I'm not going to. Because you know how to get all that. I'm not going to give you gifts that don't mean anything. The only gift that really is going to represent something is a gift of health right now. And I think that's really what I would offer them.

I like that. David, when you first started down that line of thinking, I thought you were going to say, like, you know, five coaching sessions with, like, somebody like Molly or something like that. But you said which would be. Which would be great. But you. But what you said was meditation or yoga or something. Which wasn't the first thing that popped into my head, but after you said it, I was like, oh, yeah, because that doesn't even seem pointed but helpful. I really like that. That's a great idea.

I mean, if we're dealing with alcoholism or drug addiction or any type. Listen, I have a client that I'm working with or gambling addict. Right. Just came out of a gambling treatment center, and his grandmother, who he hadn't seen in a while, he met for dinner. And what does grandma do? She realizes, yeah, things have really been tough. She gives him a check for $2,500 to cover all his past expenses and to pay for all the debt. Now, what do you think little Johnny did to Johnny? Go pay his debts? Johnny was found at the casino that night and lost it all.

I mean, yeah, that would be like hand in the alcoholic a bottle of alcohol for Christmas. Right. That'd be really difficult situation to put them in.

Absolutely. The grandmother didn't know. She had no idea. She was doing the best she thought she could to help her grandson out. And these are the situations that we're dealing with. This is a really stressful time. You know, we see more relapses. We see people struggling in recovery, trying to get in recovery this time of year. There's a reason why the emotions of the holidays are triggering for everybody in some form or fashion. We've had past family members that aren't at this holiday. We've had, you know, different events that have happened that created some type of trauma in our life, being around people.

That stress us out, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, absolutely. So we're just trying to bring the baseline of happiness higher through the holiday season. Right. So what's the best gift we really can give? The gift of love, hope. Right. To somebody, the gift of help, you know, when someone's feeling hopeless, we're going to offer that rope of hope.

Yeah. I want to bring a slightly different perspective because that was my goal from having this panel discussion, is because I really want you guys to think of this from every angle, and I want you guys to have a lot of perspectives and. And understand that there's not one right one. It. There's a. It's so complex. You got to really think it through. I. I want to get you guys, if you're thinking about gift giving to someone that has an addiction, when you're trying to stress yourself out, thinking, what if I get them this and they take it back and they use the money, that's you getting in your own head. Trying to control their situation and gift giving is about you. And while I, I don't think it's wise to give someone a 2500 dollar check that has an addiction to drugs or a gambling addiction or something like that, I also don't think that you should put yourself through so much turmoil stressing out about what they're going to spend that money on. It's kind of like this. If you see someone who's on the street and they're homeless and they're asking for money and you're like, well, what if I, what if I give them this money and they go buy a ball of Ikea or whatever. My thoughts on it are this. You just keep saying your side of the street, what they do with it. If you feel called to give something, you just give it and they do with it what they need to do with it. Because I think so many of us have been told this storyline about like, what if I give them $20 and they go use heroin with it and they overdose, then it's just my money and I killed them. And I'm like, no, it's not. You did not kill them. Addiction killed them. If that happens, okay. So I don't want to minimize it. But I also, I also don't want you guys to feel so responsible and so put on edge by the situation too. You know, if you're concerned that your loved one doesn't have food, you're concerned they don't have a warm coat to wear, you're concerned, don't then don't. You just do what feels right for you. You know, within reasonable limits. Do not hand them wads of cash. But outside of that, this whole what if I give them a $10 chick fil a card and they take it back? You're just stressing for no reason, I think, because there's no $10 chick fil a card that's going to make or break anybody's addiction. I promise you, there's just not. Yeah, it's not, it's not going to do one way or the other.

Well, they might go out and buy a pill and that pill might be loaded with fentanyl.

They could. But if that happens, that's their addiction, not the person that gave them a ten dollar Chick Fil A card. And that's what I'm trying to get the family members to see is you can't blame yourself for every single choice that they make or don't make. You got to understand that you, you have limits. And part of Christmas and Holidays is about what you need. And if you need, as a mama or a sister or, you know, whatever, to feel like I did something nice for them and I took care of them and I didn't want them to feel judged and alienated. That's what you need. That's what you need. So for me, you gotta weigh in everybody's needs. But like I said, that's why I want to have all these different perspectives out there.

Somebody posted in the comments about more of. Well, she called it sensations, gifts. So more like experiences instead of something tangible. And I really like that idea. I mean, there's so many ideas like, you know, I will take you to the movies on this day, or, you know, here's, you know, let's go on a trip, or, you know, the operas in town, or let's go see the Nutcracker or whatever. Experience gifts are really fun, and it also allows you to spend time with that person other than worrying about what they're gonna do with that gift. I. I think that's a really good idea.

I think that's a good idea regardless, like a. Like a experience kind of thing. I think that's a good gift giving idea in general. I really like that. Yeah.

Yeah.

What. I'm sorry. What they're usually lacking is connectiveness. And now that the family is coming together, you know, they're getting out of the loneliness, the isolation, being withdrawn. They're given a gift of love and support and connection. And I think no matter what it is they do, going ice skating or going to the movies or whatever, you know, Molly was talking about. Absolutely agree. That's the greatest gift also for them. Yeah.

Now I'm wondering, Dana, what you. Because you and. You and David are interventionists. I call it like the old school A and E, the TV show. Interventionists, like the ones that come, they do the heavy duty front lines, get the family in the circle, read the letters, you know, put you in the van, swoop you off to treatment, you know, kind. What? And. And I know that that kind does involve quite a bit of leveraging. Right. Like what goes through your mind coming from that perspective when I say don't stress yourself out about giving some gift cards or something, because that's slightly different. I know. How does that fit with that model that you come from as far as this sort of leveraging model?

I guess I don't understand the question, Amber, how you're tying in interventionists to gift giving?

Well, I think when you. I know. Well, and I could be wrong, you guys can Tell me. But I think a lot of it is when you're trying to pull back a little bit. I mean, you're still trying to love the person, but you're also saying, I'm not going to do this, and I'm not going to do this, and I'm no longer going to, you know, take your calls in the middle of the night and all that kind of stuff. Does that. Does my saying that kind of go against that type of model? Because what David said, the best thing you can give them is a gift of desperation, which might be a slightly different perspective.

Yeah. So when we do do those pullback things, if they're. If they refuse treatment, I mean, a lot of times, especially around the holidays, I've done this quite a few times recently. You're not invited to family holidays. So it's actually used as leverage that, you know, we're not going to let you ruin another one of our holiday celebrations with the family, or you're not allowed to come to the coast house with us when we do our Christmas celebr kind of thing. So that, I mean, we do use those kinds of things as leverage in those letters. Okay, that's what you're wondering about?

Yeah. I think also, Amber, what you're talking about is creating these healthy boundaries and pathways for them, you know, and what are we willing to do and what are we not willing to do, you know, which comes down to the bottom line. Listen, if they're not willing to accept treatment on an intervention, what is the family gonna draw the line at? You know, if you're not willing to do this, well, we don't want you in this behavior anymore around the holidays. It's been such a toxic situation that always ends the same way. We're not willing to put ourselves through that anymore.

So let me. Let me ask you guys this because. Because you got. You guys are bringing up a good point. Not even just with the gift giving, but the invitation to come to the, like, event itself, you know, the family thing or whatever, when you draw that line, are you drawing that line trying to sort of cut the blood supply off to the addiction to try to get them that gift of desperation? Or are you drawing that line because every year when you come to the Christmas party, you act a crazy fool and there's a fight and the police have to come, you know, like, why? Why are you drawing that line if you're drawing that line?

Well, I think. I think it's twofold. I think both things come into play. The biggest reason for drawing the line is if a substance user refus to go to treatment, what they're really saying is, I don't want to change and I don't want you guys to change because everything's working perfect in my life. Right. Because they don't. They're looking for comfort. They don't want to get uncomfortable, and they want to keep the status quo as it is because they're comfortable in it. So what they're saying is, I'm not going to change and I'm not going to let you change either. So if you want to motivate that person to change, and you always talk about this, Amber, you got to start changing things yourself. You got to start making them a little uncomfortable. Well, when they realize that they're not going to get invited to the hall of Things, they're not going to get to do the fun things that they used to be able to do with the family, and we're going to withhold those things. They're just saying, I'm putting up a boundary. You're putting up a boundary. You're not going to get help, then I have to help myself. And this is how I'm going to protect myself and the rest of the family.

Okay, so you're saying it. It's. It's a little bit to cut the blood flow off, but it's a lot of. Bit more of a healthy boundary on the family members. Is what you're. Is that what you're saying?

I am, yeah, I am saying that. And there is a piece of it that's. I don't want to say coercive. I don't want to say forcing. But you are trying to force the issue that they need treatment. And you know, I hate to. For people to see it as a punishment. You know, people say, well, that feels like a punishment. If I put that in a bottoms line letter, that they can't have holidays with us. And it's like, you know, we're not doing it out of punishment to them. We're doing it to protect you from another shitty holiday with your loved ones.

Right. I think that's a really good differentiator there. Because I think when you draw these boundaries, you got to ask yourself, why am I drawing this boundary? What's my intention here? Is my intention here because I'm trying to make a point. Is my intention here because this is what I need to do for myself or for my kids. I think that's what it's all about. It's about the why you're doing what you're doing more than what you're doing, actually, in my mind.

Yeah.

Yeah, agreed. Absolutely.

What do you guys think about this? This is sort of on the topic, just because it triggered me when you were saying that I, I kind of think that when you, you also run the risk of when you draw a line like that, when you say, listen, you know, if you don't do this, you can't come to the Christmas party or whatever. If you don't go to treatment, you can't come to the Christmas party. If they, if you draw that line and they don't go to treatment, which is a risk, they're going to use that resentment to fuel more use. And I would venture to say that resentment is going to buy them a lot more drugs than the $20 gift card to the Chick Fil A. That's my philosophy. So there is this fine line. I call that emotional currency to use because they use that against you. You know, they use that self pity and resentment and I can't believe you, you know, you, you just don't accept me for who I am. You know, there's a lot that goes into that.

So they rationalize and justify their using through these measures. Absolutely.

Yeah.

They're going to look for anything to justify it.

Yeah. Right.

Bottom line is they want to get high. It doesn't matter what it is. You know, if you were wonderful to them or you were terrible, they're going to just still feel because they still have that limited self belief that says I'm not enough.

Right.

So it's really dealing with a lot of that. You have to back this out. You know, it's really tough for the families. Right. They have all these different family models that are coming out. The craft model they started to use in many different places. Really changing some of the narrative on how we're talking with our loved one who is struggling with substance use or alcoholism. And I think it's, it's interesting they're trying to move away from terms like enabling and tough love. And you know, they're going to compensate or reward good behaviors and things like that. And, you know, it is a different way to approach your loved one. Right. We want to love them until they can love themselves. But if we keep loving them and we're not getting any response and they keep doing these things, where do we draw the line and say, okay, I.

Kind of like that because I'm, I'm definitely of the craft model variety, but I'm. But I kind of feel like there's a time and place for all of it. And I like what you just said. Like, if we've tried this and it's not working, then maybe we need to try something else. And I think that's why it's so good to have all the different. All the different aspects and ways to look at all the different models of how to. How to help someone come in. Because I definitely think, like, craft model is particularly good, I think for someone who's probably. Maybe a. Maybe what I would call like a functioning addict or an alcoholic. But when you get to someone who's already. They're literally about to die and about to kill someone else, then I think you got to skip the craft model. Even though I'm a craft model person, I say you got to skip it. And you got to hire Dana or David or somebody to come out and say, you going. You know, because at that point, your life or death, you know, I mean, it's always life or death. But you guys know what I'm talking about. Like, for sure, if they're still functioning and they're still working and they're still making money and everything's still working, okay, you can call out David and Dana anyway. And they're still functioning too well. They're not. They're not leveraged enough to. For that to work anyway. So I think that's why you've got to, like, look at where am I at my situation, what's going to work? You know, where's my loved one at? Where am I at? What am I ready to do kind of thing. Right.

And I think the craft model inevitably leads to the arise model of more of an invitation to the loved one to an intervention, rather than done in the Johnson model as a surprise.

Right.

So they're trying to reward the behavior. They're trying to love their loved one until that one is receptive on treatment. Right, right. It's not, you know, telling them, we don't have to lie all these bottom lines, lay all the bottom lines down and have all these, you know, lines that are drawn in the sand. We're going to invite you when we believe you're ready, but how are we going to get you ready? We're gonna believe. We're gonna work with the family. The family becomes strong enough and works with them. And. Yeah. So I think that's inevitably where they're headed with a model like that.

I agree. I agree completely.

Which I believe is great, though. Listen, an intervention is not an attack, an ambush, an assault. Right. It's done through the love, care, and support to help your loved one here. And we're gonna continually love them and care for them and because they don't care for themselves right now, right, they don't love themselves. Their behavior is, you know, the self destructive behavior is not only dangerous to them, it's dangerous to the family. It's friends, employers, everyone around. And all they're trying to do is interrupt this or create some disruption in there that they can, you know, really begin to see clear.

Right.

But it's hard.

Amy, I see a comment up here from one of our viewers named Amy and it just caught my eye. Amy says they don't care if they're not invited. And I think what I might say to you, Amy, is even if they didn't want to go anyway, we all care if we're not invited, if we're specifically not invited. You know, if I don't, I don't care if I don't want to go to the work party, whatever, but if I literally am like not allowed to go, I care about that. So it's this weird dynamic of, you're probably right, they probably didn't want to go anyway because it's just slowing them down or getting in their way. But there is this, there is this care about this idea of being uninvited. I think for most people the option, you know, even if I didn't want to, I want to, I want to be able to, you know, kind of thing.

Yeah, I've actually been uninvited from Christmas before. And while, yes, I did not really want to go, it was very painful. And you kind of hold some resentment and anger towards, towards those people for regardless of the reason why they uninvited you. And it is painful.

So I'm glad you spoke up and, and said that. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? That's what I love about a panel. I love having all these different perspectives and tell us a little bit about that. And then would you also tell us, if you don't mind, Molly, what was the thing that made you decide to stop drinking in the end?

So getting uninvited from Christmas, it was on like my dad's side of the family and I wasn't really close to anybody. It was far away. So I knew it would be like a whole weekend thing. And they were not drinkers. So, you know, just a lot of things that were like, nope, nope, nope. Just checking off my list of being able to escape. So it really, it was like kind of a relief, but also like, oh my God, you, my family doesn't want me there for Christmas. Like, that really sucks. And you know, obviously it didn't change my behavior. It didn't make me evaluate my drinking or say, you know, I'm not going to drink anymore because my family doesn't want me around. But it sucks and it hurts really bad. So I just want to put that out there. The reason that I got sober, I mean, I was a daily drinker for a good part of 20 years. And you know, some people can fall down a dark hole really fast. Some people, there is no dark hole. A lot of people say there's rock bottom, which I think is kind of, I don't know, I feel like that's really dangerous to say that there is rock bottom any for anybody because it looks so differently for everybody. But for me it was not being the parent I needed to be for my kids when they needed me the most. I was recently divorced and so as a sole caregiver, I mean, you never know when one of them falls down and needs to get taken to the ER and you're, you're drunk on your ass or, you know, I just got down a very, very dark hole, very depressed, ready to take my life. And that was. I just got fed up. I just got so tired of it. So tired of feeling like shit all the time and not connecting with my kids.

Let me ask you this. When they, when you got uninvited from Christmas, did they tell you specifically it was because of your drinking? And they didn't. They just said, you're uninvited from Christmas. Like, I'm giggling at you. I'm just like, really?

So it was actually so my dad uninvited me, but he scapegoated my step grandparents saying that they didn't want me there. And I, I was so upset that I called them and to ask, well, you know, is there something that I did specifically to you? And that's when, you know, the cat was out of the bag and they had no idea what I was talking about.

And it was.

Yeah, that, that's.

It was interesting.

So it wasn't like where the event was being held that I got uninvited.

So why did he like imply that the grandparents didn't want you to come?

I mean, I guess just to avoid confrontation maybe. Okay, like it wasn't his fault or.

I don't know, not, not really. Why did he do it? But like, what impression did he give you? Oh, hey Molly.

Just.

Btw, we don't want you to come Christmas. It's really the grandparents. I don't want you there. Like, there has to be a. Like. Well, yeah. What was the reasoning that he was sort of implying about why the grandparents. Sure. Interesting. Yeah.

That I am difficult to get along with, and it was just a general consensus that I wasn't. I wasn't welcome.

Okay. Because you're pain in the butt. Yeah. Okay. That's. That's almost worse. He should have just said because you drink too much. When you get. Yeah. Just to say, we just don't like you. I mean, that's hard. That's hard. Don't do that.

Don't do that.

Families. And if you're gonna uninvite, then just own it and say it and don't put it off on someone else. And just. If that's what you're gonna do, then just do it. Because that. That way. I wouldn't say. I would say don't. Don't do that thing that happened.

Yeah.

I mean.

Yeah. They may call you out and then what are you gonna say?

So, Molly, inevitably, You knew it was about the drinking, though, right?

No, no, because nobody said anything to me. Honestly, David, I drank for so many years and it was so second nature that I never really felt like I had a problem or that I needed to take a look at it or. You know, I just. It just didn't really cross my mind for a very long time.

So it.

It really. Honestly, it wasn't the first thing that I thought of. I thought I was just a bum, a bummer to be around. People just didn't like me. So I took it very personally.

Well, then, to be fair, when you say it that way, maybe. I mean, this sounds strange to say, but maybe. Maybe they didn't realize it was the drinking that made you difficult to be around. So maybe in their mind, they didn't connect the dot completely. If you're saying you didn't connect the dot, maybe they really didn't connect the dot. And they weren't. They weren't connected. Maybe that's why that was happening. That's interesting.

Yeah, I would. I would. I would agree with that. Because with that group of people, there was no drinking. So, you know, when somebody's addicted to something and they don't have it for an extended period of time, they are not fun to be around.

Okay.

So it's very likely that was it.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. See, I'm so glad you said that and talked about that, because it just brings up so many points and. David, why did. If you don't mind? Why did you get, why did you decide to get sober?

Why did I decide to get sober? Well, the first time I got Sober was in September 1, 1989. I was intervened working on Wall Street. They told me I was drinking and doing too much cocaine.

Oh, the Wall street people told you that?

Yeah, and I said, you guys aren't doing enough.

Must have been real bad just saying.

You guys aren't drinking enough. And I stayed sober for 12, 13 years, ended up getting a bunch of knee surgeries done and got hooked on oxys. Was a first generation oxy guy. And I got to the point where I was being federally indicted and I was looking at doing long term in prison. And I said, you know what, it might be a good idea to be sober before I enter federal prison. And yes, I was invited to be a guest of the federal government in the only gated community in Duluth, Minnesota for 60 months. And I went in there clean and been clean since 11 years.

That's an interesting way to look at it because I think looking at, from addiction perspective, you could easily say these are my last days, I gotta live it up. You know, because most people, like even on their way to rehab, you know, it's just like, let me get it all in, you know, so it's interesting. I mean, it's smart because getting sober, especially when you did it, if you were in that first generation, there was no put you on some Suboxone for a few days in jail.

So it wasn't an option. And you know that it's, it's a straight kick in prison or jails. You know, it's tough going into treatment. At least they could give you some type of medical assistance.

Right. You knew it would be cold turkey in a jail cell.

That's right.

That'd be awful. I mean you, you made the right choice. But I could also see someone making the opposite choice, saying, these are my last days.

Well, also the other part of it is if you walk into a federal prison or jail or anywhere drunk, you're going to spend that time in the hole the shoe until you sober up, even if they want to. You know, I've seen guys go in there and stay a lot longer than three days after they're sober because they pissed off the COs and they pissed off the staff by disrespecting them, coming in so inebriated.

So you made a very strategic decision.

You think.

I'm gonna give you credit because in active addiction it's hard to be super strategic. You just Survive in the today. So. So that's imp. When you made that decision, did you think, well, first of all, how long were you going to be locked up? Did you know that at the time?

I did not, but.

Okay.

Between five and seven years.

In your mind, when you decide I'm going to get sober before I go in, was it a plan initially that, okay, this is it, I'm done with this, I'm. I'm giving it up, like, forever? Or was it, let me just get through this a little bit?

Well, I've been sober a long time, so I knew what that was like. You know, I had some of the fruits of recovery and really enjoyed it. Was very active, and I knew how much better my life was. And, you know, once the devil crawls up your leg and bites you in the butt and you begin to run, you know, that feeling is really pain, misery, isolation, reverting back to where I call. What's cemented at the roots of addiction is trauma. Right. And how do we tap into trauma? Through shame, embarrassment, different ways. And I knew that the embarrassment from going through something like that, shame. I just wanted to embrace it. You know, I didn't want to run from it anymore. I wanted to embrace and move on with my life.

So it was two things at work or a few things. One of the things was, strategically, I'm going to make the decision. It's a bad move to go to jail and be in withdrawal. It's just not smart. And. And the other thing that came into play was because you had been in recovery before, years before, you really had a deeper level insight about the issue, the bigger picture issue. And, and ultimately you were more ready to just move on from it because you had that experience prior.

Absolutely. And I knew what it would be like. I was doing, you know, so many of these oxys and, you know, inevitably led to heroin. Oxys are synthetic heroin. And I knew the amount that I was doing, there's no way. When I finally went into a hospital to sober up, you know, I came to after three days and started screaming for the nurse, what's going on here? You know, she says, sir, you've been balled up in the corner making farm animal noises for three days. We kept bringing the cuff in, bringing your food, and I was just completely out of it. You know, there's no way that could have happened in jail.

Wow.

Would have been, you know, if anyone knows that pain, what it's like trying to sober up from that, it's like somebody's inside of you cutting themselves out with a butter knife. And, you know, not to have to do that in a jail cell would have just been as bad as it gets.

Wow. Donna, let's hear from you from a family perspective.

Yeah. I also want to say that when David made that decision to go into treatment, he had that investigation hanging over his head, and he knew an indictment was coming down from the grand jury, and he knew he was going to be in a courtroom, and he knew he was going to be at a sentencing. And, you know, to be all messed up going through all that, I think that probably played into it some, too, right, David, you wanted to get sober before all that was coming down.

Yeah, I wanted to have my head somewhat straight. You know, you're looking at a federal judge and you're slurring, you're not going to do pretty good. So. Yeah, yeah. No, I take it seriously. I joke about it, but it was a very serious thing, obviously. And, yeah, I've since had coffee in the chambers of my sentencing judge. The first judge he said that's ever had coffee with someone that he indicted.

Wow. I bet that was kind of a. Interesting experience.

Yes, it was pretty unbelievable. Full circle.

David. I was gonna say at the sentencing, David, send him. Said him, sir, someday I want to come back here and have a cup of coffee with you. And he did.

And he's. Yeah, his secretary invited me to have, you know, I was honored. You know, what do you wear to a judge's chamber? Do I have to get a robe? I don't know. I want to dress like. And I remember talking with him, and, you know, we chopped it up for an hour or so, and he had asked me, he said, is it okay that if anyone's going through what you're going through, I can use you as a resource? And I said, you, honor, I'm going to tell you the same thing my lawyer told me at sentencing. He said, you're about to meet the man closest to God that has total control of your future. I said, of course, your honor, you can use me.

I bet you're one of the only people that said, your honor, one of these days I want to come back and have a cup of coffee with you. I bet maybe he's heard I want to come back one of these days. And something else.

Yeah.

You know, he did say that he's heard that a few times, but no one has had coffee with him or reached out after.

Impressive. Yeah.

And I thanked him. I really thanked him for sentencing me. I said, you saved my life. You really did. I Probably wouldn't be here today if this hadn't happened the way I was going.

Yeah. So. So, Dana, from. Can you. Do you mind talking to us a little bit from the family perspective, from being literally the person having to make these decisions about the holidays with someone in active addiction, with someone maybe who's in early recovery. Can you give us some sort of experience, strength and hope from. From that lens?

Yeah. David, when he was using, was a functioning user. So. And I mean, he owned his own. We owned a business. You know, he, you know, so he was very functioning. And I divorced him. I mean, in 2005, we got divorced, and he didn't get indicted until 2012. So it was seven years that I wasn't with him. So when it got really bad and he was actually doing heroin, we weren't involved that way.

But.

But I will say that I've talked to his family members since, because everybody does holidays together. And, you know, they. Even to this day, like they say, they. They are so grateful that David's where he's at today, and they've never seen him in such a good place from year to year. But they. They still say, we don't always know that that other shoe is not going to drop. So that never really goes away, you know, when you have those issues that, No.

That'S it. I'm not going to the holidays now.

When you have decades dealing with someone that you just are praying is going to keep it together for the holidays and that they really are on this good path. And then, you know, there's a lot less time in sobriety where you can trust it. You know, you always want to know, is this really the deal? And I will say one of the greatest things that David did in his perspective and turning it around was he was like, you know, very, very emotional about the fact that he had disappointed so many people in his life. And he just flipped that and said, I want to make everybody proud of me, you know, whether it was his kids, his parents who are now deceased, his, you know, relatives, his ex wife, et cetera. So I think that's just such a great perspective when his. Of the shame and the guilt and the remorse that addicts have. And. And they are so used to disappointing everybody, especially around the holidays, and not going through and not being able to follow through with what they say, etc. Just be able to flip that perspective and go, I want to make these people proud. Like, you have the chance to do that. You know, David didn't have a relationship with the kids, you Know, for a lot of those years because of his using, and now they have the best relationships that father and daughter could ask for. So just all of that stuff can be turned around with that simple decision of, I'm start making people proud of me. I'm going to do the next right thing to keep that going.

I love that. I love that. Absolutely. Do you guys have time to take a couple of questions?

Yeah. There's so many questions coming in. I see that.

Yeah. And I do want to say, Marion, you said, hello, Shovelers. I like that. I think I'm gonna steal. The name of this channel is called put the shovel down. And she's saying, I haven't heard that. Shovelers. I like that. We're gonna call it.

Well, Dana was telling me the name of the show. She said. I said, what's the name of the show? She said, put the shovel down. And I said, gee, I would have named it. You're using the shovel in the wrong direction in the wrong way.

That's right. I'll tell you a funny story. Every now and then I'll do one of the things I like in my other life is like, I like true crime. And every now and then, I'll do, like, a true crime video if it has to do with addiction, and talk about the addiction, mental health parts. And I think when I do those videos and they're not used to all this content, I think they think put the shovel down means something else. Because it's, like, about. Because somebody said that to me one day. I was like, I never thought that was, like, so funny.

Hearing dead bodies. Are you Amber?

They're like, I like the name of your channel. On one of those videos, I was like, oh, that's not even what I mean. But that, too, that.

The first time I heard of your YouTube channel, I just had to laugh because I am the biggest helicopter mom and bulldozer mom. You know, I'm like, on top of everything. I will make any path easy as possible for my kids. I mean, I've had to really, you know, look at that behavior because I am the caretaker enabled to. And when I stop Put the shovel down, I'm like, oh, yeah. Because I'm the biggest bulldozer. So in my case.

It'S got the heavy equipment.

Okay.

Exactly what it. You know, how it pertained to me.

That's funny. That's hilarious. All right, let's take some questions. I know you guys can see the question. So if you. If there's a question that you see that you like have something to say about you. Just.

I want David to answer a question I saw, and that was about not inviting your loved one to the holidays because isolation isn't good for them, Susan says. But doesn't isolation from family events make it worse for them? And I'd like David to talk on that because he talks a lot about addiction being a disease of loneliness and isolation.

Susan, doesn't isolation from family events make it worse for them? I think the isolation comes from within. It doesn't matter where I was. I lived in New York City, in the biggest city in the world, basically, and I was so lonely and isolated from everybody. And I think that it's, you know, it's really that feeling. Yes. To be separated from the family is really, really tough. Especially what Molly was saying, when you're not even invited to your own, you know, family holidays, it does make it tough, and it does exasperate the addiction as well. Is there a happy medium? Yes. We want you here, but we're not going to allow you to drink and, you know, stand on the kitchen table smoking bongs. You know, there's some stuff. We're going to draw the line, and if you can handle that, we could be okay with it. We don't want to isolate. We don't want to leave anybody out. Nobody inevitably wants to do that. We want our family around. It's just as hard on the family when they make that decision not to let you in as it is on that, because the family the whole time is thinking about, how is my loved one doing? What's going on with them? I know they're not here, and that's what they're worrying about. The other side is saying, you know, I'm so pissed at my family for not inviting me to this thing. You know, I don't care what's going on with them. So, yeah, it is a tough. It is really, really tough, the isolation part of this. And we know that the antidote to addiction, Right. Is connection.

Yeah, you bring a good point. Because when you're in active addiction, you, Even if you are at the family event and everyone is there, you're going to feel completely isolated and lonely. Now, you might not feel rejected because you're there, but you feel completely. I say alone because you're hiding so many secrets that no one really knows who you are, and no one really. You're not really connected to them. You're maybe there physically, but you're not there emotionally. And they don't really know you because you've got this Whole secret life going on. So I think you make such a great point about the loneliness of addiction, whether you're there or not.

Yeah. I also think one of the greatest things I've heard with loneliness is Bill Wilson, one of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. Love his writings. And he wrote the difference between isolation or loneliness and solitude. And he said, loneliness is an expression of one's pain, but solitude is an expression of our glory. You know, if we can finally get to that place, it's really the transformation that we've made that to be alone and not be lonely is truly what we're looking for. When I have times when I'm sitting in my apartment alone, oh, my gosh, I'm so happy. It's a great place to be when you finally can decompress after a long day.

Right.

Just enjoy being there.

I just wanted to follow up and say that if you want to know more about what David's talking about, about those boundaries and hey, we can invite you, but these might be the rules, the ground rules. Watch our special from Thanksgiving, from before Thanksgiving, because we talked all about that. So that's a good one to follow up with.

Good plug. Nice, Dana. I like it. You're on it. Molly, there's a question up here that I think you might be great to answer. And it said, somebody said, I once gifted a couple of alcohol free beers to a loved one who drank a lot of beer. Not sure if that's a good idea. I'm going to tip that question to you.

It is a really good question, and it depends on the receiver. Some people drinking non alcoholic beer will trigger them to want the real deal. And I know lots of people that drink non alcoholic alternatives. Like, there's this brand called Toast. It looks and smells and tastes just like wine, but there's no alcohol in it and they love it and it keeps them away from the real deal. So I would ask the person, like, would this bother you? Is this going to trigger you? If not, cool. Here you go. Otherwise, you know, I would forego it.

Now, I think one of the things that this particular person is saying, I think it's Ragnar is the name it says. I get the impression from the question, the person drinks a lot of beer. As in they actively drink a lot of beer. Like, not as in their recovery. But does that change your answer at all or. Same.

I was a big beer drinker too. If somebody would have given me non alcoholic beer, I would have thrown it in the trash.

Would it have felt insulting? Would it have felt Like a dig, like a statement.

Man, that's a great question. I'm gonna say no just because I don't know. I don't know if I can really answer that right now.

Well, you answered one question for me, which is a good one, which is they're not really drinking it for the taste, no matter what they're saying. Molly just answered it for you. When they're in that active addiction state. I just like the taste of it. But she just told you the answer. If you gave her the non alcoholic kind, she'd do it in the trash. So I got. I got some kind of good answer from you. I like that.

I had a girl that I was working with her. She was sober. Her husband was not. She was trying to get her husband sober. And he would tell her all the time, I'm not drinking because I have a problem with him drink. Because I love the taste of it. I love the taste of my rum. He like Captain Morgan spiced rum. And I said, okay. And I sent her a link for a spiced rum that's non alcoholic. I said, that should work. Then if that. If it's true what he's saying, he only drinks it because he likes the taste of it. Try that. Yeah, it didn't work. So. You're absolutely right, Amber. They use that as an excuse. I just like the taste of it.

Yes. I can tell you from someone who's a thousand percent addicted to Diet Pepsi that and I. I like the taste of it. Would I drink a regular one? No, because now I like Diet Pepsi. That's what I drink. But give me a caffeine free one. No, don't taste the same. And I know that caffeine doesn't have no taste one way or the other, but don't like just doesn't work the same. So. Yeah, it's not the same. Yeah. Let's see here. Let's see. Do you guys see. Any other questions that you want to answer? Because I'm going to scroll through them to see. Oh, here's one. Pay bills directly. What do you guys think about that? Like, instead of giving them money, maybe pay a bill that they have. Like go to pay their electric bill or 100.

Agree. Absolutely.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

I would say without their knowledge, though, if it was me, I wouldn't want to know that they did that just because it would feel insulting and I would feel like I was getting a handout.

Okay.

It could be different for other people.

So for you, it wouldn't feel insulting because it's like A jab about being addicted. It would be like a, a charity, like a, like a handout. Insulting. Yeah.

Like you don't have your. Together we're gonna take. Make sure that you have electricity this.

Month for your kids. I think that's such a good point because it, that's why this is so tricky is because some of these ideas will come across as insulting if you're not careful. Like, like if you give somebody's active alcoholic some kind of non alcoholic beverage. I think that's risky as far as it could come across as a dig if you. And that's why it's so hard. And that's what family members are so stressed out about it. Because it's like, yeah, the answer. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I sure hope this has helped a lot.

It's like taking someone to a crack house and have them just smoke tobacco. Yeah.

Laura says give a small gift from the heart. Give nothing to do at all with their addiction. Give them money if you want to. Give them anything at all, that's okay. That's always good advice. I like it. Laura, let me ask you this, David, because you mentioned earlier about giving a gift of health or wellness. What, what do you, what do you think if you gave someone maybe like a book on recovery or something like that, or like something that's specifically about addiction recovery, would that be a good idea or a bad idea?

Fabulous idea? Think so, I think, yeah. You know my aunt, years ago, who's been sober a long time out in la, when I was going through my stuff, she sent me a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous and inside she wrote on really helps if you read it. Don't use it as a drink coaster.

I like her style. Now, were you already, like, were you trying to get sober? Were you sober? Were you still drinking when she said.

No, I was still. I was out of my mind. I was back in New York City working on Wall street.

And yeah, I was gonna say at first it's kind of. I like her style because it, I was gonna say, oh, that's definitely going to be. I was gonna say, did she write the word hint on the front big hint? But she did even better. She just made it like a funny remark. She didn't even try. She's like, oh, yeah, this is your hand. I'm gonna tell you how to use it once you get it. I love it. That's hilarious.

And I'll follow up with that and say it doesn't have to be a book directly pointing to the fact, like, that was a definite Direct fact, you need to be in recovery. But there's just so many books on, you know, whatever they're going through. If they had some kind of trauma, if they're recovering from a job loss or a divorce or, you know, you know, they, they could use some personal growth in a certain area, or they're just immature and never grew up. I mean, there's plenty of books out there that aren't directly pointed to out an addiction issue, but just something that might be thought provoking and seed planting for them that, oh, maybe there's more to this than I thought.

Agreed. Because like a big book, you send somebody a big book. That's a statement right there. But you could send like, you know, people do their memoirs. Like, like, I just read the, like Chandler from Friends memoir. You know, there's all these memoirs which you could give to somebody because they, like, watch Friends. It's got a little secret message in there. I don't know, you could be sly about it. Did you read the book? Okay. Are you reading Chandler, the Chandler book?

No, I'm reading the. Who's the other guy from Friends that just wrote this book?

Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. Why am I not remembering his real name?

Because I just read Matthew Perry.

Matthew Perry. But he's Chandler. On Friends, I call him Chandler.

Yes, I'm reading that right now. Did I read the big book? No. When she gave it to me, what.

Did you think when you got it? At the time, and now we look back, it's kind of funny. But at the time, what did you think?

Who are these crazy culted people? What are they into?

You know, really, is this even English? That's what I would have thought of, like, is this even English? When I read it.

But when I slowly started reading it, the same thing happens today. And the same word that they used back in 1935, when a drunken stockbroker met a drunken doctor in Akron, Ohio, for the first time, one alcoholic identified with another. And they realized together we could do what I cannot do alone. And part of the coaching work that I do with a lot of my clients is that I offer that to them. You know, I'm offering them to grab on to the rope and work together. And we do the shoulder to shoulder, side by side. You know, I've met many coaches out there who are suggestive in their approach in a more direct manner. You need to do this, you need to do that, you know, and it's how we really create that narrative with our clients. It's going to move them and motivate them. I think that's really the most important thing. And it's through the identification, obviously, of living it. Live through it.

You know, I love that. Such good advice. It's the how do we. How do we give that approach? And I. I think you can be very direct, but I think if you. You need to have a good relationship to be very direct, and if you'll put a little humor or something in it, kind of like David's aunt did or that sent him the big book, it goes down better.

I think when you're working with someone, the most important thing to do is have laughs.

Right.

They've been missing this for so long. If we can't show them how to have laughs and be able to laugh at ourselves, you know, and really become fully transparent and accept some of the shortcomings in our life and defects and imperfections, you know, especially, you know, through the zooms the last couple of years since the pandemic.

Right.

You ever notice everyone on the zoom is, like, looking for this angle? Oh, is my double chin here?

No.

My nose looks bigger on this angle. Maybe I'll go here. And everyone's bouncing around on the zoom. Right. And when we get to the place where it just. It doesn't matter.

It's okay.

This is who I am. You know, it's a big acceptance issue.

All right, is there any last question that you guys see up there that's calling to you?

I have.

I'm so add it's hard for me to, like, read the questions and talk, especially on Interview. I'm really doing, so I want to make sure I don't miss any of these. Go. There's such good questions and comments. A lot of you guys are giving good advice to each other, which I love. What is the craft model? The craft model stands for community reinforcement and family training, and it is about boundaries and positive reinforcement versus leveraging kind of thing. There's a whole thing. If you want to learn more about it. I've got a bunch of videos on this channel about it. And there's a book called Beyond Addiction that's all about it. Yeah.

When they say it increases the chances that a loved one's going to enter treatment through this model.

You know, I like Chris John Wright's question. I use cocaine one time a week on nights out. Enjoying it. It's it. Okay or not.

I got some thoughts. Y' all got some thoughts?

Go ahead, Amber.

Is it causing problems for you? And what. And why are you watching my Video. Because I usually say, if you're, if you're watching my videos asking yourself, do I have a problem? That right there is a good sign. Is, is it causing you problems? Is it causing you problems in a relationship? Is it causing you financial problems? Is it causing you problems at work? That's really, it's not what you do. It's not even how much you do it. It's how much problems is it causing you. That that's really what it is. And if you look at the clinical criteria like in the real clinical diagnostic book doesn't say anything in there about what or how much it. It literally says it looks at everything else. Is it caused you health problems, it's causing you psychological problems, cause you relationship problems, causing you to miss work? Are you putting yourself in dangerous situations to do it? Like, those are the questions for whether it's a problem or not. And that is such a great question. I don't know who asked that. You say so many.

Name is Chris John Wright. And I just want to add one thing to that because my definition too, and we talk about this in our book Addiction Rescue, the no BS Guide to recovery is, are you suffering consequences like you said, having problems in relationships? The other criteria is too, that we look at is, is everybody around you telling you have a problem, you have a problem, and you're the only one saying, no, you all have the problem. Like David said, you know, no, you guys aren't drinking enough, you know, so if everybody, David says, it's like being in a room with your flight, walking around with your fly down and nobody notices or everybody notices but you, Right? Is everybody telling you got a problem, there might be a problem there.

Let's see.

And I think it also kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about how it's dangerous to say there's a rock bottom. Like one day a week could be a huge problem for one person and not impact somebody else a couple days, two or three days a week. So feel like Amber said, if you're asking, is this a problem, like, there's your answer.

If you got that like feeling inside and it's bothering you, that's an indicator. Like, just like a little, like a little indicator, like. But if you're going out, if you use one day a week and it's Friday and it's payday and you're using all your paycheck that one day a week and you're not paying your bills and your wife's mad at you because of it, and your credit's suffering then, yeah, it's a problem, even if it's one day a week. So it, it's not the how many days, it's not the frequency. It's the how much trouble is it causing? There's a good question on here. How do I say, I know you don't like the holidays for many reasons, so you're off the hook. So many holidays and their birthdays in the hospital.

What. What's the question in there, Amber? I missed.

I'll pop it up here. She's saying, how does she say to someone, I know you don't like the holidays for so many reasons, you're off the hook hook. So many holidays and birthdays are in the hospital.

So she's saying, how do you say to someone, like, because they've ended up in the hospital for so many holidays, how do you let them off the hook so they know they don't have to attend? I would be 100 off. I'm honest about that.

Yeah, just say what she said. I know you don't like the holidays. You're invited, but you're off the hook if you don't want to. Yeah, I like it. Yeah.

I mean, that's exactly how you say that. You know, we don't want you to end up in the hospital again, so you're off the hook.

Saying you're off the hook as far as, like, you don't, don't feel like you have to come is different than saying you're uninvited. And that's not going to feel offensive, especially if you're saying, listen, if you don't want to come, no one's going to judge you. And, and I'll even cover for you. What's your cover story? I'll sell you. You know, that's a, that's a great thing to say to somebody. Yeah. Thank you guys so much. You guys have been fun. I love that everybody has a different perspective. Every one of you brought a different angle. And I think that is so helpful for our people watching. If you guys were helped by this, put a little thumbs up emoji in the comments or chat. So David and Molly and Dana know that, that they were helpful. And I've put the contact information for Dana and Molly in the description and it, David, if you'll send me yours, or Dana, if you'll send me David's, I'll put his in the description too, because people can watch us on the playback and that way everyone can connect to you guys if they want to. In any different kind of way. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you so much, everybody.

Thanks, Amber.

Appreciate it.

All right, bye, everyone. We'll see you next Thursday, one Eastern.

Have a great day.